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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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the shaman sees two minds
    #19320347 - 12/24/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"Every one of us human beings has two minds.  One is totally ours, and it is like a faint voice that always brings us order, directness, purpose.  The other mind is a foreign installation.  It brings us conflict, self-assertion, doubts, hopelessness."  --Yaqui Shaman Don Juan

from The Active Side of Infinity by Carlos Castaneda


I agree with this.  I'm interested to hear some of your thoughts....


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19320361 - 12/24/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
"Every one of us human beings has two minds.  One is totally ours, and it is like a faint voice that always brings us order, directness, purpose.  The other mind is a foreign installation.  It brings us conflict, self-assertion, doubts, hopelessness."  --Yaqui Shaman Don Juan

from The Active Side of Infinity by Carlos Castaneda


I agree with this.  I'm interested to hear some of your thoughts....




A Foreign Installation?  WTF.  Yeah Yaqui Shame On You fucking globalist.  UN Agenda 21 Punk.  I know, it's all about the fucking "sustainability". 

Whew.  I feel better already, thanks fucking Carlos you tale spinning paranoid cult leading jackass.  I love you Bro!


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19320414 - 12/24/13 10:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:



mind
mΔ«nd/Submit
noun
1.
the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought.





In my opinion, Two minds aren't accurate, it's one mind based upon 2 distinctly differently functioning hemispheres of the brain. They all make up the mind, if the mind is the totality of the capacity for thinking.

So one mind can be divided into two distinct parts, but they both still make up the one mind.

Personally I think it is much better explained in a book I read called "Click", in which both aspects of our minds are described as the Elephant and the Rider, the rider being the logical thinker and the elephant being the emotional one.

The rider can only do so much to control the elephant and direct it where to go, but if the elephant decides to do something else, the rider has little sway over the elephant. 

It doesn't take a shaman to see that.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix] * 2
    #19320938 - 12/24/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

not the hemispheres, those have function, but mostly for body sense and body memory behind the frontal cortex.
even the frontal cortex which handles abstraction is like part of the externality of mind:
even when it is full of feelings, and those feelings are inside you.
the part that can be you you is the prefrontal cortex, the wee bit (way in front of the frontal cortex) that can correlate your experiences and your abstractions against each other in context of 'values'
in this tiny piece of brain
the tiny voice, the tiny impulses, and weak resolution has to negotiate cooperation with the overall automation that the rest of body mind represents.

like a cup compared to an ocean.

one really must choose their battles, and only wage to win.
the method is one of training the beast (not like you can steer the elephant in real time, what you can do is arrange training and practice, in real time it is an automation).

left and right brain theories have mostly been debunked, but the scientists have not all caught up to this, while the astrologists and charlatans are reveling in the confusion.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19320966 - 12/24/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:



left and right brain theories have mostly been debunked, but the scientists have not all caught up to this, while the astrologists and charlatans are reveling in the confusion.






Evidence?

There is evidence of a lady with half a brain re-wiring the same phenomena.

It's how the mind works. Yin and Yang.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19320972 - 12/24/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think it has anything to do with right and left hemispheres of the brain.

I believe he was referring to the ego-self as the foreign installation (as we are all DNA robots designed to procreate, no matter what, and act the vast majority of the time automatically) and the true, fundamental self as the "faint voice" which is what would amount to "free will" for those who believe in it.

Another way to look at the ego-self vs. true-self is to draw an analogy with physics:  the former is like a classical, deterministic system, while the latter is more like an unconstrained quantum system.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19320998 - 12/24/13 12:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm seriously thinking about ignoring RGV, it seems like he commonly posits red-herrings, pretending as if it is evidence against the topic or what someone said, when really it has nothing to do with it. I don't know if he does it on purpose or if he really thinks he made a legitimate argument though, or maybe even the argument is over my head.


Edited by teknix (12/24/13 12:47 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321008 - 12/24/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I don't think it has anything to do with right and left hemispheres of the brain.

I believe he was referring to the ego-self as the foreign installation (as we are all DNA robots designed to procreate, no matter what, and act the vast majority of the time automatically) and the true, fundamental self as the "faint voice" which is what would amount to "free will" for those who believe in it.

Another way to look at the ego-self vs. true-self is to draw an analogy with physics:  the former is like a classical, deterministic system, while the latter is more like an unconstrained quantum system.




That may be true, but my problem is with this claim:

"left and right brain theories have mostly been debunked, but the scientists have not all caught up to this, while the astrologists and charlatans are reveling in the confusion."


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19321022 - 12/24/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Just read about the girl with the hemispherectomy and then decide if it is bunk.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321084 - 12/24/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I don't think it has anything to do with right and left hemispheres of the brain.

I believe he was referring to the ego-self as the foreign installation (as we are




He? Who is HE in this instance? There is no previous mention of anyone which to refer.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix] * 1
    #19321098 - 12/24/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:



left and right brain theories have mostly been debunked, but the scientists have not all caught up to this, while the astrologists and charlatans are reveling in the confusion.






Evidence?

There is evidence of a lady with half a brain re-wiring the same phenomena.

It's how the mind works. Yin and Yang.



is Yin and Yang not the magical male and female energy model, we do have many real things that relate to positive negative, and in sex male and female are essential (more often than not), but this beautiful idea should not be projected everywhere.

the corpus callosum connects the left and right cerebral hemispheres and facilitates interhemispheric communication, ensuring that memories form on both sides of brain with sensory features from both sides of the body. basically you get one strand for every 20 afferent neurons, on a side, conveying a bit of the activity over to the other side in a consistent way.

the rest has to do with idiosynchratic learning, where one learning type gets a bigger footprint on one side by habit, and another category can be more fully developed on the other (maybe) if the sensory preponderance of that side is involved with the learning process.

anyway there are about 109,000 google results for "left brain right brain debunked"

the huffington article may help you with this


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19321111 - 12/24/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Just read about the girl with the hemispherectomy and then decide if it is bunk.



radical surgery just might have a radical effect, but it does not prove the left brain right brain theory, while it supports the fact that much brain tissue is missing after removal.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19321159 - 12/24/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If it was bunk, then why would the brain need to re-wire anything?


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Invisiblehmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321164 - 12/24/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
"Every one of us human beings has two minds.  One is totally ours, and it is like a faint voice that always brings us order, directness, purpose.  The other mind is a foreign installation.  It brings us conflict, self-assertion, doubts, hopelessness."  --Yaqui Shaman Don Juan

from The Active Side of Infinity by Carlos Castaneda


I agree with this.  I'm interested to hear some of your thoughts....




Yeah...it's a valid point of view, and beautifully expressed.  It feels a bit hostile to me, though it does jive with my experience.  All kinds of conflicting thoughts and emotions pass through awareness.  If I take the time to sit and notice them, it's clear that most of them came from outside; they aren't "me."  Though I haven't found anything I could call "me" yet...


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19321173 - 12/24/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I can type in google "Earth is round debunked" and get over a million results. But does that make it true?

That point isn't really valid.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19321195 - 12/24/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Just read about the girl with the hemispherectomy and then decide if it is bunk.



radical surgery just might have a radical effect, but it does not prove the left brain right brain theory, while it supports the fact that much brain tissue is missing after removal.




We're not proving anything, but collecting evidence for or against.

As much as you seem to know, I'm not sure how you could miss that.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19321509 - 12/24/13 02:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:


He? Who is HE in this instance? There is no previous mention of anyone which to refer.




"He" is Don Juan.  I referred to him above.

I would just like to suggest we steer the conversation away from this left/right argument.  As I pointed out, that is not what Don Juan was talking about.

Here is my two cents:
So often, we fall into the trap of conflating our consciousness and our true self with the individual self of our evolutionary brain.  The "classical" ego-self (i.e. the nervous system and its functions) gets reflected by the inherent consciousness of the brain, and we feel that we are carrying out what are really automatic functions of the organism in its environment.  The hyper-relativistic, non-local "quantum" true-self, which normally is dormant in almost everybody, is where true reality (and real autonomy and intelligence) exists, and is often mystically (and therefore very imprecisely) described.  The classical self is a robot designed by evolution to carry out sexual reproduction through whatever means necessary.  Fundamentally, our consciousness and our ego-self are not identical.  Generally speaking, the ego-self is an artifact of the mammalian brain.  The brain and the ego do not give rise to consciousness; consciousness is actually more fundamental than either of them.  This is a point of great confusion.  The ego is an illusion.  Reality itself is an illusion.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321592 - 12/24/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Touche.

If reality is an illusion then is it really reality?


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Invisiblehmmn


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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321817 - 12/24/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

teknix said:


He? Who is HE in this instance? There is no previous mention of anyone which to refer.




"He" is Don Juan.  I referred to him above.

I would just like to suggest we steer the conversation away from this left/right argument.  As I pointed out, that is not what Don Juan was talking about.

Here is my two cents:
So often, we fall into the trap of conflating our consciousness and our true self with the individual self of our evolutionary brain.  The "classical" ego-self (i.e. the nervous system and its functions) gets reflected by the inherent consciousness of the brain, and we feel that we are carrying out what are really automatic functions of the organism in its environment.  The hyper-relativistic, non-local "quantum" true-self, which normally is dormant in almost everybody, is where true reality (and real autonomy and intelligence) exists, and is often mystically (and therefore very imprecisely) described.  The classical self is a robot designed by evolution to carry out sexual reproduction through whatever means necessary.  Fundamentally, our consciousness and our ego-self are not identical.  Generally speaking, the ego-self is an artifact of the mammalian brain.  The brain and the ego do not give rise to consciousness; consciousness is actually more fundamental than either of them.  This is a point of great confusion.  The ego is an illusion.  Reality itself is an illusion.




Hmmm...how could you know that the ego is dependent on the brain, while the true self is both non-local and independent of the brain?  What you've claimed is consistent with my experience of life, but I don't see any particular reason to believe that it's true.  It could be otherwise...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321960 - 12/24/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"If thy mind be single thy whole body shall be full of light"

I remember something like that in the bible.

Personally:satansmoking::hellfire: we are legion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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