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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: fivepointer] * 1
    #19308589 - 12/21/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:popcorn:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: fivepointer]
    #19309875 - 12/21/13 11:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
And your point is? You already know that I do believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, just not the protestant version you adhere to because I am Catholic.

But what Tony Parsons has to say fits much more with your version of the gospel, the idea that there is no individual free will and nothing you can do to bring about salvation.

You say the gospel must be heard and applied to the heart but you also say there is no free will. So if that is going to happen to me, then it will happen, there is nothing I can do to bring it about, right?




The bondage of the will, due to the Fall, is the reason for the total inability of man to come to any spiritual truth.  Only the unilateral action of God can break this bondage.  Technically speaking an unregenerate person can't escape their own bondage.  In fact, they are blind to the fact that they in bondage at all.

If the doctrine of Total Depravity is denied, then it follows that salvation must be a conditional proposition, which it is not. 

The gospel you believe is completely different from the one I believe. 

Man has no say in whether he is included in the number of the elect.  This has been decided before the foundation of the world.




I don't think anything you have said here is opposed to Catholic teaching. We also believe in predestination. From God's standpoint, which is beyond time, who is and is not among the elect is already known.

However, the Catholic Church also teaches that within time, man has free will. Our own choices have a direct effect on what becomes of our souls. Think about it, you yourself said that one must believe in the gospel and apply it in their heart. Isn't this a choice? Sure you could say that it was predestined to happen and Catholics would not disagree with you. But at the same time we believe that at least from our point of view, we have the freedom to choose to follow the Lord Jesus Christ or to follow Satan. If you deny free will then it makes it sound as though I can go start worshipping Satan and it wont have any effects on my chances of eternal salvation. This is what the Catholic Church is opposed to. Double predestination takes away man's moral culpability because it's apparently God's fault if he sins or rejects the gospel of our Lord. If I am doubly predestined to hell than how I be held accountable for anything?

We deny the doctrine of total depravity because although the human ego is totally depraved, we are made up of more than just the ego. There is some good in us and that's why the world is not completely overrun by Hitlers and Stalins.


Edited by Deviate (12/21/13 11:09 PM)


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: Deviate]
    #19310436 - 12/22/13 03:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
I haven't read much of Parsons, only heard about an hour of him speaking but i like what i hear & like his approach, he's relentless in his pointing to the unknown nature of What Is, i appreciate him

The only thing i could critisize him for, which i think you will appreciate, is he neglects 'the story' that he was a seeker for something like 40 years doing all the traditional practices, going to many teachers, and now he says they didn't help him at all, ultimately he's right they didn't help a 'him' as ultimately there is no individual separate person who needed help, but he admits that individuality or the idea of it somehow fell away after so many years of seeking, and like you pointed out in a recent thread, without doing all those purifying practices he wouldn't have finally 'got it', even if ultimately there is nothing that needs purifying & nothing to get... he also says that most of the other non-duality teachers are full of it cause they sell stuff on their websites & are actively seeking to help people, and claims he has nothing for sale, but if you check out his website low & behold he's got books for sale, he gives meetings he charges admittance for around the world... it appears he is interested in making money & helping people aswell, i don't think there's anything wrong with this, but he gives the impression he is somehow different from the other teachers, that his message is radical & original, when it isn't, no thought at anywhere at any time is ever original

Saying this i think he's great & if you resonate with him you should look into what he's saying more, or if you can do what he says & don't look into anything anymore as anything 'you' do will just further energize the illusion of individual separation, you may think going to a Satsang or a Parsons meeting is just more 'spiritual materialism' but if your ego can take it i highly recommend going to a meeting

I think inbetween your Christian Gnostic Devotion & your interest in Non-Dual teachings your well on your way dude, even though there is no you, or way, or dude :grin:





Yeah well I try to enjoy the seeking I guess. I mean I could look at it like, I have done all these things, I jointed Catholic Church, I prayed so much, I spent weeks in solitary meditation and all that time what I was looking for was this. I didn't have to do anything.

And yet if I just not done anything, I doubt I would have ever made it to point of realizing I didnt have to do anything. So we can look at all the seeking as useless, or we could look at it as a fun game we play. Thats part of why I wanted to join a church. Church is at least a semi-enjoyable way to seek. There is nice music, there is fellowship, etc. Its definitely better (for me at least) than sitting still watching my breathing for 3 hours.

Maybe thats what we should focus on more. As long as you cant stop seeking, find enjoyable ways to express your seeking. It doesnt have to be church, you could go camping or take a hike in the wilderness every weekend or whatever, just as long as its a regular thing and not something you only do once in a while (I am a firm believer in regular repitition) That way, instead of looking back on your seeking as wasted time, you can look at it as just part of your dream of being an individual.




:thumbup:

That's great, i love going to Church at this time of year with the Christmas hymns, but i rarely go any other time of year apart from to go & check out some cool sacred architecture & soak up the vibe when the Church is empty, i very much like the idea of going to more choir based celebrations in churches though, the acoustics are awesome, i'll have to look into it

When i was younger i went to a Catholic school which forced us to go to Church every Wednedsay morning, everytime i came out of there i felt great, i attributed this to being free'd from the forced imprisonment i'd just been subjected to for the last hour, but looking back on it there was something else happening, something good

I like how you define seeking, and Parsons whatever he says is still also seeking, he still gives meetings, emails people, writes books etc...  the only person i've come across that really finished himself was Ramana Maharshi, he was totally silent at first, refused to speak, never sought any followers, even suggested to people that they all just leave him alone in peace, but of course out of compassion he eventually answered questions of the seekers that found their way to him, he had no website, no books, no advertising, nothing for sale

That's a lie actually, he did advertise in the metaphysical realms :lol: he appeared to a few people & told them to come to Arunachala to sit with him, even though he never left Arunachala from the age of 16

I agree that repetition can help, it's what got us in this mess and it can help get us out, it can't take anyone all the way though... no cycle can


--------------------


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: Deviate]
    #19312034 - 12/22/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
And your point is? You already know that I do believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, just not the protestant version you adhere to because I am Catholic.

But what Tony Parsons has to say fits much more with your version of the gospel, the idea that there is no individual free will and nothing you can do to bring about salvation.

You say the gospel must be heard and applied to the heart but you also say there is no free will. So if that is going to happen to me, then it will happen, there is nothing I can do to bring it about, right?




The bondage of the will, due to the Fall, is the reason for the total inability of man to come to any spiritual truth.  Only the unilateral action of God can break this bondage.  Technically speaking an unregenerate person can't escape their own bondage.  In fact, they are blind to the fact that they in bondage at all.

If the doctrine of Total Depravity is denied, then it follows that salvation must be a conditional proposition, which it is not. 

The gospel you believe is completely different from the one I believe. 

Man has no say in whether he is included in the number of the elect.  This has been decided before the foundation of the world.




I don't think anything you have said here is opposed to Catholic teaching. We also believe in predestination. From God's standpoint, which is beyond time, who is and is not among the elect is already known.

However, the Catholic Church also teaches that within time, man has free will. Our own choices have a direct effect on what becomes of our souls. Think about it, you yourself said that one must believe in the gospel and apply it in their heart. Isn't this a choice? Sure you could say that it was predestined to happen and Catholics would not disagree with you. But at the same time we believe that at least from our point of view, we have the freedom to choose to follow the Lord Jesus Christ or to follow Satan. If you deny free will then it makes it sound as though I can go start worshipping Satan and it wont have any effects on my chances of eternal salvation. This is what the Catholic Church is opposed to. Double predestination takes away man's moral culpability because it's apparently God's fault if he sins or rejects the gospel of our Lord. If I am doubly predestined to hell than how I be held accountable for anything?





This objection is answered in Romans Chapter 9.  Read it carefully.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: fivepointer]
    #19315141 - 12/23/13 08:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

True but one must still cooperate with God's grace in order to be saved. God is gentle and he does not force salvation upon us, rather he extends his grace to our fallen souls and then we have the choice whether to respond to it or to continue in sin.

In retrospect we might see that God was orchestrating the whole process, ei. you will not find catholics taking credit for their salvation all power and glory belongs to God alone. And yet at least early on in the salvation process it feels as though we have a choice. I really don't see where we are so at odds though. Its not like the Catholic Church denies predestination. Then you would have an argument. To me it looks like this is just two different ways of looking at the same thing.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: Deviate]
    #19315342 - 12/23/13 09:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

He's never going to agree with you.  You're Catholic. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: Icelander]
    #19315385 - 12/23/13 09:29 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I know but I want to find out where he disagrees because I was reading a little bit on Calvinism the other day (not that fivepointer is calvinist, i forget what he is) and although calvin's theology seems very different from catholic theology I eventually concluded that he was actually describing the same thing from a different angle.

There are two ways to look at that, we could thank him for giving us a different angle to view salvation or we could fault him for disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: Deviate]
    #19315391 - 12/23/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I mostly just laugh.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: Deviate]
    #19317289 - 12/23/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I know but I want to find out where he disagrees because I was reading a little bit on Calvinism the other day (not that fivepointer is calvinist, i forget what he is) and although calvin's theology seems very different from catholic theology I eventually concluded that he was actually describing the same thing from a different angle.

There are two ways to look at that, we could thank him for giving us a different angle to view salvation or we could fault him for disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.



My theology would be considered Calvinistic, the five points of sovereign grace, the TULIP, hence the name fivepointer.  The name also refers to the 5 Solas of the Reformation.

I believe that any doctrine contrary to sovereign grace is not a mere disagreement, it is a denial of the very foundation of the gospel.  I would not be so adamant about otherwise.

Catholic salvation is a merit scheme, based on cooperation and grace.  However, grace can not be mixed with the works of the unrighteous.  Catholics miss the righteousness of God, thinking that personal effort can maintain salvation.  The foundation of righteousness is not Jesus alone, which is the only foundation that is true, but Jesus's righteousness plus their own personal efforts.
 
A misunderstanding regarding justification is not a mere disagreement, it is what make for another gospel.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: Deviate]
    #19317311 - 12/23/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
True but one must still cooperate with God's grace in order to be saved. God is gentle and he does not force salvation upon us, rather he extends his grace to our fallen souls and then we have the choice whether to respond to it or to continue in sin.

In retrospect we might see that God was orchestrating the whole process, ei. you will not find catholics taking credit for their salvation all power and glory belongs to God alone. And yet at least early on in the salvation process it feels as though we have a choice. I really don't see where we are so at odds though. Its not like the Catholic Church denies predestination. Then you would have an argument. To me it looks like this is just two different ways of looking at the same thing.




Thank God he doesn't leave it up to the fallen, no one would be saved if He did.

You certainly have room to boast, you made better choices, were mere dedicated, more sincere, went to church more, than the next guy.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: fivepointer]
    #19318665 - 12/23/13 09:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
I know but I want to find out where he disagrees because I was reading a little bit on Calvinism the other day (not that fivepointer is calvinist, i forget what he is) and although calvin's theology seems very different from catholic theology I eventually concluded that he was actually describing the same thing from a different angle.

There are two ways to look at that, we could thank him for giving us a different angle to view salvation or we could fault him for disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.



My theology would be considered Calvinistic, the five points of sovereign grace, the TULIP, hence the name fivepointer.  The name also refers to the 5 Solas of the Reformation.

I believe that any doctrine contrary to sovereign grace is not a mere disagreement, it is a denial of the very foundation of the gospel.  I would not be so adamant about otherwise.

Catholic salvation is a merit scheme, based on cooperation and grace.  However, grace can not be mixed with the works of the unrighteous.  Catholics miss the righteousness of God, thinking that personal effort can maintain salvation.  The foundation of righteousness is not Jesus alone, which is the only foundation that is true, but Jesus's righteousness plus their own personal efforts.
 
A misunderstanding regarding justification is not a mere disagreement, it is what make for another gospel.





I am Catholic and I don't think, nor I am aware of my church teaching that personal effort can maintain salvation. That is a misunderstanding. Salvation is the work of God, through grace based on the merits of Jesus alone. If predestination is true (which the Catholic church affirms) how could it be any way other than this?

However, the Catholic church teaches that from the point of view of the fallen soul, it has a choice whether to respond to grace or to reject it. God does not force sanctification on the elect, the elect choose to follow God because they love Him. For example, lets say I am a sinful guy who spends his sundays watching porn and lusting after the porn stars. Then one day, God extends his grace to me and shows me that there is more to life than watching porn. Now from my point of view (whats true in an ultimate sense is irrelevant here) it feels as though I have a choice in how to respond. I can choose to reject God's grace and go on watching porn or I could decide to pick up a Bible, start going to church or start praying.

Of course you could say if I choose to do any of those things it wasn't really my choice but God's grace working through me and to my knowledge the catholic church would not disagree with you, we also believe in predestination. But you can't deny the fact that from my point of view it feels as if I am making a choice. It does not feel as though God is forcibly purifying me of evil desire, it feels as though I am making a choice to pray or study God's word and God is purifying me through these practices. If at any time I want to put down my Bible and go whack off to porn again, it feels as if I have that option. That is free will.

Furthermore, my choices correlate with the outcome my soul experiences. For instance, if I choose to pray or attend Mass or read the Word of God, then God responds by opening my heart to more of his grace. On the other hand, if I choose to go back to watching porn, then God responds by withdrawing his grace. Of course God is free, if he wishes he can bestow his grace on me even if I choose to watch more porn and he doesnt necessarily have to bestow grace on me if I pray (although generally he will always respond to sincere prayers). But generally speaking, the more we choose good actions, acts of faith and charity, the more God will respond by giving us his Spirit and the more we choose to do evil, breaking his commandments and not saying our prayers, the more he will harden our hearts to his grace.

All those who are going to be saved must at some point choose to follow Christ and allow him to enter into their hearts. This requires an act of the will. God does not force Christ into our hearts against our will. This is why we emphasize free will and choice. Of course in retrospect, after God has revealed his nature to someone, that person might come to realize he never had any choice in the matter at all, that it was ALL the work of the Almighty. We go through a death or sorts, the death of personal will. That is why St. Paul said, "It is not I who live, but Christ in me". But prior to Christ coming to live in us, we have the choice whether to seek our own glory or to seek to glorify the One who made us.  So Calvinistic theology isn't necessarily wrong, it simply emphasizes God's total sovereignty whereas Catholic theology emphasizes the authority God has given to man and man's ability to effect his own fate through his own choices.


Edited by Deviate (12/23/13 09:49 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: Icelander]
    #19318838 - 12/23/13 10:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Basically the first line of my sig. :wink:




Time to start your own school/website/YouTubeVideo/line of clothing...


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19319560 - 12/24/13 02:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I thought the shroomery was my school. :confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: Deviate]
    #19324498 - 12/25/13 05:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Your version of predestination is not the same as my version.  Based on your assertion that acts of the will are required for salvation, then the future must be unknowable by God.  Since a person may or may not respond, God can not authoritatively say how many will ultimately be saved, since acts of the will trump everything else.

You must hold to a "tunnel of time" version of predestination.  That is God looks down the tunnel of time to see who is responding, and based on the response, the predestination is made.  This begs the question, if God wants everyone saved, yet looks down the tunnel of time, and sees millions uninterested, why allow such a scheme in the first place?  He sees that billions will be sent to hell, yet allows this to happen.  Also millions live and die without ever hearing any gospel at all. 

The truth is God doesn't just observe events, He ordains all events according to His will.  This includes the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath.  Both serve His end, one to the glory of His righteousness and judgment, and the other to the glory of His love and mercy.  The Bible is clear that all events are according to His will, not the will of man.  The reprobate are never loved by God, they are appointed to their end according to God's purpose.

You claim man's ability to effect his fate through his own choices.  The problem is that fallen man can not solve his own fallen condition, since every aspect of existence is fallen, including his will.  It takes a supernatural event to regenerate a person, to give them the new birth, to give new wants, to give the Holy Spirit to reside with the person.  All these things can only happen AFTER regeneration.  Spiritual acts outside of regeneration almost always result in a form of self-righteous false religion, creating people ignorant of God's righteousness, attempting to establish a righteousness outside of Christ's righteousness ALONE, in the deluded view that works of man (sincere effort, dedication, etc.) can form some part of justifying righteousness.  The offense of the gospel is NO righteousness outside of perfect righteousness is acceptable to God.  This is cause of the hatred of the true gospel, that you can't come with ANYTHING, since every best effort at religion, God sees as complete DUNG.
  In other words you come as an undone sinner.  This is the work of the Holy Spirit, conviction of sin.

Gospel conversion immediately recognizes the only ground of righteousness is Christ's ALONE, to the exclusion of all else.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tony Parsons appreciation thread [Re: fivepointer]
    #19325220 - 12/25/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So in your view, what is one to do before regeneration? Rejoice in sin? The Catholic teaching is simply that we should implore for God for his mercy, while at the same time recognizing that even this act stems from selfish desire and openly acknowledging this before God "Oh, Lord, here comes the devil and his minions to take my soul away even now".

This is what the Bible says to do.


18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

and

Luke 11:5. And he said to them, "Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves;

6 for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';

7 and he will answer from within, 'Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything'?

8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him whatever he needs.

9 And I tell you, Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

10 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent;

12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?

13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"


Jesus also says "He who perseveres to the end will be saved".


Of course all our attempts to establish our own righteousness are deeply flawed and fall far short of Christ's righteousness. Never the less, the Bible does not tell us to not to pursue righteousness anyway.

So the Catholic teaching can be said to be, pursue salvation with all your strength making use of all the sacraments offered in the church while as much as possible understanding that everything depends on God and you have no power at all.

Your teaching seems to be "recognize you have no power at all". That works great for some people but not great for the unrepentant sinner. Such a man will say "Ok I have no power at all, I might as well go on sinning". But does the Bible say such a man cannot be among the elect? Absolutely not. Were he to implore the Lord day and night for mercy, the Lord could have pity on him and grant him eternal life in Christ.


Edited by Deviate (12/25/13 11:45 AM)


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