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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19314990 - 12/23/13 06:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

One thing that might help also is to develop a cosmic sense of absurd humor about yourself and this existence. That one thing has helped me about as much as anything else.  I never see you get silly here. :sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19315038 - 12/23/13 07:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That could be of course.  The fact that I have money makes living with some of this other shit a fuck of a lot easier. In fact if I didn't have any money I'd fucking off myself tomorrow most likely. (Well after my Kratom stash ran out of course.):D




I just wish there was an amendment to the Bible that included all the shit you need before even possibly conceivably making room for 'God'..."Fuck, my back hurts!  No, no, I don't need Jesus, I need some Kratom"... "Oh fuck, I don't have any money!  Nah, I don't need God, I need a job to buy some Kratom".... "Okay, my back doesn't hurt and my house isn't in foreclosure, maybe I'll ponder the Uverse and see how that goes."


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19315049 - 12/23/13 07:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19315061 - 12/23/13 07:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
One thing that might help also is to develop a cosmic sense of absurd humor about yourself and this existence. That one thing has helped me about as much as anything else.  I never see you get silly here. :sad:





Well I have a very serious personality. I am certainly not incapable of laughing at myself or the absurdity of life and all that, I mean you know that one of the things I love about Christianity is the absurdity of it. For example, I was just reading from the book of Jeremiah the part where God talks about how he lead the Israelites out of Egypt but then on several occasions he became angry with them in the dessert and would have killed them all had he not be concerned about his namesake. I mean, how would it look if he lured the Israelites out into the dessert and then killed them all there? Who would want to worship a god like that? And yet that's apparently what he would have done had he not be super concerned about his reputation and how this would look to other nations (and the Bible is very clear about this in multiple places).

Now I find this absolutely hilarious and I love the fact that we go and worship this very same god with a straight face every Sunday (at least he hasn't killed us yet, right?). These are the sorts of absurdities that I love about life. But they take a lot of explaining, its not something that lends itself to playful joking around.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19315217 - 12/23/13 08:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I was just reading from the book of Jeremiah the part where God talks about how he lead the Israelites out of Egypt but then on several occasions he became angry with them in the dessert and would have killed them all had he not be concerned about his namesake. I mean, how would it look if he lured the Israelites out into the dessert and then killed them all there




I can just see God luring the Israelites like ants with a piece of Baklava :rofl:, but somehow I think you meant desert.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19315313 - 12/23/13 09:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Because imo as humans we are always going to be a mix of those things.  Nature is always a mix of things.  IMO much of your suffering is in your inability to accept this.  We are all very flawed. We all suffer, greatly at times, there are joys to be experienced in spite of this.  And that my friend is life 101.  You don't move on until you grokk that in fullness.



^^ This.

Quote:

Deviate said:
its funny how on the spirituality and myscticism forum I receive so much discouragement from actually following my path of mysticism.



I don't think that's what people are doing here.  People are engaging and challenging you.  The serious posters are doing it civilly as well.

In my opinion, you need (we all need) realistic expectations and goals -- and "transcending the ego" is not one of them.  That's why I'm not enamored by much of Eastern mystical doctrine.  Much of it places unreasonable and unnecessary burdens on people and tends to disempower them by presenting them as illusory, deluded, and incomplete.

You're a lot less fucked up than you think you are, Deviate. 

Truly, dyed-in-the-wool, fucked up people don't read and post in "spirituality and mysticism" internet forums.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19315336 - 12/23/13 09:12 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
One thing that might help also is to develop a cosmic sense of absurd humor about yourself and this existence. That one thing has helped me about as much as anything else.  I never see you get silly here. :sad:





Well I have a very serious personality. I am certainly not incapable of laughing at myself or the absurdity of life and all that, I mean you know that one of the things I love about Christianity is the absurdity of it. For example, I was just reading from the book of Jeremiah the part where God talks about how he lead the Israelites out of Egypt but then on several occasions he became angry with them in the dessert and would have killed them all had he not be concerned about his namesake. I mean, how would it look if he lured the Israelites out into the dessert and then killed them all there? Who would want to worship a god like that? And yet that's apparently what he would have done had he not be super concerned about his reputation and how this would look to other nations (and the Bible is very clear about this in multiple places).

Now I find this absolutely hilarious and I love the fact that we go and worship this very same god with a straight face every Sunday (at least he hasn't killed us yet, right?). These are the sorts of absurdities that I love about life. But they take a lot of explaining, its not something that lends itself to playful joking around.





That truly is absurd. Just remember that everything is like that and you'll be on your way. 

Seriously I don't know how I could go on if I didn't laugh all day long. 

You seem to have gotten a very short stick in the game of life. :sad:  It's amazing you do as well as you do.  Best of luck.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19315487 - 12/23/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

I was just reading from the book of Jeremiah the part where God talks about how he lead the Israelites out of Egypt but then on several occasions he became angry with them in the dessert and would have killed them all had he not be concerned about his namesake. I mean, how would it look if he lured the Israelites out into the dessert and then killed them all there




I can just see God luring the Israelites like ants with a piece of Baklava :rofl:, but somehow I think you meant desert.




:rofl:

baklawa :drooling:


--------------------


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: all this beauty]
    #19315644 - 12/23/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
The ego has no value. It is completely useless.



Nothing wrong with the "ego."  Nothing to escape there.  Doctrines that proclaim otherwise are full of shit.  Buddhists who proclaim otherwise are full of shit.

Your ego -- your sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility -- is precisely what brings you to forums and discussions like this one.  If you were some cosmically perfect wishy-washy ego-less thing, you'd be boring.  No one would want to listen to you or go to the movies with you.

We have a sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility because those "senses" serve biological / evolutionary purposes.  There is no cosmic trickster burdening us with attributes that aren't useful to us. 

All in my opinion.




:awebig: :thumbup:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19315656 - 12/23/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Deviate said:


I dont even have any money to buy kratom, I have no job, no motivation, barely enough food, health issues, no girlfriend, no friends, etc. What else am I gonna do?





What if most of your problems evaporated if you figured this shit out?  Perhaps you'd have new set of problems, but they might be infinitely better problems to have.  Maybe the enlightenment trip is distracting you from what actually matters at this point in time.  These aren't overly materialistic goals, this isn't fast money, cars, bling...  Just good health, a job, and a decent lady friend you like and are sexually attracted to.




I agree.  Without a good foundation one cannot build up to the heavens--or in alternate metaphysical lingo, strengthen the root chakra before attempting to open up the crown.  :thumbup:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: all this beauty]
    #19318791 - 12/23/13 10:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Because imo as humans we are always going to be a mix of those things.  Nature is always a mix of things.  IMO much of your suffering is in your inability to accept this.  We are all very flawed. We all suffer, greatly at times, there are joys to be experienced in spite of this.  And that my friend is life 101.  You don't move on until you grokk that in fullness.



^^ This.

Quote:

Deviate said:
its funny how on the spirituality and myscticism forum I receive so much discouragement from actually following my path of mysticism.



I don't think that's what people are doing here.  People are engaging and challenging you.  The serious posters are doing it civilly as well.

In my opinion, you need (we all need) realistic expectations and goals -- and "transcending the ego" is not one of them.  That's why I'm not enamored by much of Eastern mystical doctrine.  Much of it places unreasonable and unnecessary burdens on people and tends to disempower them by presenting them as illusory, deluded, and incomplete.

You're a lot less fucked up than you think you are, Deviate. 

Truly, dyed-in-the-wool, fucked up people don't read and post in "spirituality and mysticism" internet forums.






The ego isn't real. Those we see this will never think that transcending the ego is not a realistic goal, while at the same time they will always think that transcending the ego is an unrealistic goal because there is no ego to transcend.

Enlightenment is not some goal that is going to happen in the future, its just seeing clearly what is already here. Its not some unrealistic goal, its just being what we are and the more I settle into my natural state of being, the better I understand myself. Sometimes it brings pain, as I confront things which I had been suppressing back when I wasnt concerned with enlightenment. Other times it brings peace and joy.

I have already posted about how the moment you turn enlightenment into a goal, like "transcending the ego" it becomes impossible because you have relegated it to the realm of thought and concepts and then you will not be happy until you have "transcended the ego" (whatever that means).

Maybe the best way to explain what I am doing here is this. Enlightenment is about remembering what you were like before you adopted all these strange beliefs that society imposed on you, all the ideas that you should be this way and shouldnt be that way, that you must find enlightenment, that you must do this or that, etc etc. When you were a young child, you somehow existed without any of these ideas.

Now if you can remember what that was like and view it in contrast to your society imposed mental state, in my experience it is a revelation. So my spiritual practice consists of recalling what life was before I let society tell me what life was.

I really dont see how thats unrealistic or why you want to challenge me on it. I am afraid that youre never going to convince me that I am better off believing in societies version of life, or your version of life instead of my own.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19319565 - 12/24/13 02:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think that's true for all of us. We all prefer our own hell/heaven to another's. :hellfire:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19319917 - 12/24/13 07:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think that's true for all of us. We all prefer our own hell/heaven to another's. :hellfire:





Well yes of course we prefer our own because we can make it just how we like it. Its like furnishing a room. Others can give you very good ideas about how to furnish a room but ultimately you would be doing yourself a disservice if you were to furnish a room according how others advised you against your own preferences for the room.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #19319948 - 12/24/13 07:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think when somebody says their personality was less rigid as a child,  it's not because they had yet to be sold on strange beliefs like "transcending the ego".  Many children have already been sold way stranger beliefs, like Christ and Santa, yet aren't overwhelmingly emotionally burdened.  I think it has more to do with the fact that most of these children primarily use their ego to make inconsequential decisions, like whether to play make believe in the woods or practice magic tricks.  Their caretakers are shielding them from the major executive decisions life requires to ensure survival, like finding shelter and food, and also tending to them when they're in pain or had a scary dream, etc. An environment has been created for them where their personality is nurtured. 

As an adult, you have to create that environment for yourself, and if you have some thought disorder where you're making poor decisions that have led you to a decade of drug abuse, no motivation, no money, no job, health problems,  'transcending your ego' is nothing more than escapism, you want to restructure the damned ego as to find some solutions to these basic survival problems that are making you miserable.  There is no memorable escape route back to your carefree childlike nature when there's a negative wind chill and you have nowhere to sleep at night, only developing the capacity to have good ideas and making the right decisions would get you out of such a mess.

Other people, on the other hand, have thinking faculties and decision making capabilities that have brought them reasonable success on a material level, yet are still a neurotic mess...



I think it's no coincidence that Harvard psychologists, Leary/Alpert or renowned authors like Huxley talk about transcending ego...  Think about their lives comparatively, a college professor is exactly the type of person that has his material needs met, but needs to let all the shit that truly doesn't matter slide and get blissed.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19320118 - 12/24/13 08:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
its funny how on the spirituality and myscticism forum I receive so much discouragement from actually following my path of mysticism.




Always puzzles me that too! :thumbup:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Duncan Rowhl] * 1
    #19320217 - 12/24/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Not the whole of his path imo. He get's encouragement for a large part of what he's heading for.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19324863 - 12/25/13 08:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I think when somebody says their personality was less rigid as a child,  it's not because they had yet to be sold on strange beliefs like "transcending the ego".  Many children have already been sold way stranger beliefs, like Christ and Santa, yet aren't overwhelmingly emotionally burdened.  I think it has more to do with the fact that most of these children primarily use their ego to make inconsequential decisions, like whether to play make believe in the woods or practice magic tricks.  Their caretakers are shielding them from the major executive decisions life requires to ensure survival, like finding shelter and food, and also tending to them when they're in pain or had a scary dream, etc. An environment has been created for them where their personality is nurtured. 




No, this is has nothing to do what what I am talking about. It's not the state ignorant carefree bliss of childhood that I am seeking, that's only half the coin. The other half is being as wise as a serpent. The similarity to a child lies in the fact that a young child has nothing on his mind, he doesnt perceive life through the colored glasses of all his past trauma because he hasnt had much trauma yet. The enlightened consciousness perceives with the same child like innocence only it also possesses all the wisdom that comes through suffering.

Quote:


As an adult, you have to create that environment for yourself, and if you have some thought disorder where you're making poor decisions that have led you to a decade of drug abuse, no motivation, no money, no job, health problems,  'transcending your ego' is nothing more than escapism, you want to restructure the damned ego as to find some solutions to these basic survival problems that are making you miserable.  There is no memorable escape route back to your carefree childlike nature when there's a negative wind chill and you have nowhere to sleep at night, only developing the capacity to have good ideas and making the right decisions would get you out of such a mess.




It's not escapism, awakening is the total opposite of escapism, it's bravely facing all your fears , past traumas and other issues so that healing can take place. The awakened state is not divorced from the here and now, so you can never get there by escaping, in fact you cannot get there through any form of coming or going. You just realize that this is what is longed for. What is longed for is right here, right now, always has been and always will be.

One you realize this, it will be unmistakable and you will naturally begin working to make this realization steady. There is simply no turning back when the process begins. I have given up believing I have any choice in this, it is not something I am doing, it is something that is happening. My consciousness is simply expanding from a very painful contracted form (that got into lots a lot trouble), to a much more open, expanded form, from which I see solutions rather than problems.


Quote:


Other people, on the other hand, have thinking faculties and decision making capabilities that have brought them reasonable success on a material level, yet are still a neurotic mess...



I think it's no coincidence that Harvard psychologists, Leary/Alpert or renowned authors like Huxley talk about transcending ego...  Think about their lives comparatively, a college professor is exactly the type of person that has his material needs met, but needs to let all the shit that truly doesn't matter slide and get blissed.









If you are implying that one must be emotionally healthy or having their physical needs met before they can awaken, you are completely wrong. Of course I pursue healing whenever I can find it but the highest level of healing is understanding one's true nature, which is awakening. Often times one must go through great pain before they can arrive at this state. In fact as far as I know, Timothy Learly never had much interest in pursuing liberation. He was a genius and a very spiritually evolved person (after his psychedelic use) but I dont think he was fully enlightened. His ego simply did not cause him the kind of problems my ego has caused me, so he didn't see it as necessary to get rid of it completely. Richard ALpert ont he other hand, was more like me. He was interested in true liberation.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19324899 - 12/25/13 09:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:



What if most of your problems evaporated if you figured this shit out?




Thats a joke if I ever heard one. First of all, I spent nearly three decades trying to figure all this shit out and never even came close. Second of all I have had money, cars, friends, a girl (though not the one I really wanted) before and I was never even close to satisfied by any of them. Not even close.

 
Quote:

Perhaps you'd have new set of problems, but they might be infinitely better problems to have.  Maybe the enlightenment trip is distracting you from what actually matters at this point in time.  These aren't overly materialistic goals, this isn't fast money, cars, bling...  Just good health, a job, and a decent lady friend you like and are sexually attracted to.




You don't understand. If I had any control over those things, don't you think I would exercise it? My health is the main problem. Without it, I cannot work, cannot earn money, etc. I can't magically fix my health, so what does that mean? It means the only thing I can do is work on improving my ability to cope with pain and that way I can get the most out of this painful weakened body and hopefully build some kind of life with that seems worthwhile with the limited resources I have.

Now I spent the past several years working and trying to escape the pain in my body through drug abuse. That makes working rather pointless because all  the money I earn goes to drugs. So thats when I decided I would try to extend my ability to cope with pain rather than abuse drugs all the time. I believe the best way to cope with pain is liberation. If you know a better way, I would certainly be open trying it.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher]
    #19324916 - 12/25/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Deviate said:


I dont even have any money to buy kratom, I have no job, no motivation, barely enough food, health issues, no girlfriend, no friends, etc. What else am I gonna do?





What if most of your problems evaporated if you figured this shit out?  Perhaps you'd have new set of problems, but they might be infinitely better problems to have.  Maybe the enlightenment trip is distracting you from what actually matters at this point in time.  These aren't overly materialistic goals, this isn't fast money, cars, bling...  Just good health, a job, and a decent lady friend you like and are sexually attracted to.




I agree.  Without a good foundation one cannot build up to the heavens--or in alternate metaphysical lingo, strengthen the root chakra before attempting to open up the crown.  :thumbup:




That's all part of the story that liberation frees one from. Its actually not necesary to do anything prior to liberation because there is nothing besides liberation.  You dont need to go to church, you dont need to meditate or pray, you dont need to work on opening your chakras, believing that you must do something, anything at all, is what prevents you from seeing that there is nothing you need to do.

Read the quote in your sig. The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth. If you think you need to "strengthen your root chakra" before you can realize there ultimate truth, then that would imply that the ultimate truth is something new that can be gained. But it is not new. Thats the secret. Theres nothing to get, you are already it. It's this.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19325176 - 12/25/13 11:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think you have me confused with Icelander as that quote's from his signature.

At any rate--great, so there's nothing to be gained.  Congratulations, you can stop seeking now!  There, I just saved you the effort of a couple thousand more Shroomery posts/Hail Mary's/insert whatever spiritual&mystical practices you employ.  :grin:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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