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Andreas798
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Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from?
#19314709 - 12/23/13 04:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hi, I scrolled down into your topics, and I've found really great discussions, deep and with a really different angle of view. So I've decided to try to start writing here about some of the ideas I had over the years in both stoned and sober states. For example, his particular matter makes me think a lot: epistemology. How do we get to know things? How do we transform them in a finite system of ideas that we can call "self"? My general idea comes from long discussions I had with a friend, about 2 years ago, when we unfortunately were really into methadone. We talked a lot about relativism (another subject which have interested me since I was a child) and quantum mechanics, until we reached a consistent point:I'll give you the updated version.
I think it's all about the beginning and the possibilities that it contains:the entropy. From the moment we are conceived, we have a finite number of paths we can end following. We have all the genetic, environmental, social, cultural, relational, educational influences that form us, directly at the beginning, and then responding to the previous experiences we had. We are like a broken mirror, which reflects all the external inputs we are receiving (depending on all the "personal aspects" from the passed events to the general inclinations of the person)and gives us the "outputs", everything from philosophy to the mood or even the tendency to do something or not to do something else. Then we have an "absolute world", which we do not know, an "absolute self", each person taking itself apart from anything else (a subject who reflects on the subject itself) and their interaction, becoming the world as we think to know it. Now, people need to have a unite world in each time of their lives, without which they wouldn't be able to take decisions. If one is unable to do so (or hold it together without suffering), it creates schizophrenia. But it cannot stay the same for all of your life either. So we must be able, through cognitive dissonance and other exploits of the mind, to unintentionally control the stream of informations coming from the outside, and altering them to make them "acceptable" to us, making them fill into our vision, even if it means altering reality itself. But then, other than a reality in which we can move and live, a reality that is confirmed by that of the others, what do we really have? We don't understand anything of the real Truth, even if we could see it as it is we couldn't perceive nor understand it. Because the one is one, and to understand it you have to take it as so. We instead rebuild our perception of the world each time we can add something to our "all". To understand something you have to take it apart from all else and analyze it alone.
How can we then get the all that comprehends us and all that has ever been, and will ever be, known or not known by men altogether? We can't, therefore we will never really understand the universe (or the "being", if you prefer) itself. That's my theory, and it leaves a lot of questions open. What yours? What do you think about it? I'm waiting to read your opinions!
Edited by Andreas798 (12/23/13 12:47 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: Andreas798] 1
#19314723 - 12/23/13 04:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Welcome dooder. Just a tip on presentation. A wall of text is difficult to read and so it's always better to break up things into as many paragraphs as possible. The more the better and separated with a space. This allows the reader to take a breath so to speak.
Then spellchecking of course gives your post a more solid look.
Btw I agree that we can't and never can understand the universe.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: Icelander]
#19315335 - 12/23/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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we you are both right in the sense that you both are taking several topics and mashing them together as universe and in the great tradition of all people who attempt all things at once you come to the understanding that it is impossible to expand and encompass all things in one unified theory:
yet many very stoned people do have amazing epiphanic experiences (from which no intact souvenirs are taken back to humanity) and in those expansive experiences all encompassing and infinite understanding are underscored.
so, please focus on one issue at a time, except in the case that you are another punter that really needs to prove that none of us can really understand everything everywhere all at once; which is not all that hard to prove, and which is probably not even a goal except for an advanced stoner who has been/seen GOD and returned with empty pockets expecting more.
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Icelander
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: redgreenvines]
#19315387 - 12/23/13 09:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I found a turd in my pocket when I returned. 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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teknix
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: Andreas798]
#19315541 - 12/23/13 10:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Wall of text, didn't read it. Maybe if you learn to make paragraphs more people will read it.
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Andreas798
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: teknix]
#19316059 - 12/23/13 01:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for the advices, I really written it without thinking about that stuff. That being said, I mixed a lot of arguments together intentionally, because it's obvious that we can't really understand the unity as it is. The important part is the quantic one, in which we are only "dynamic computers" that associates the different things we experienced before to create an absolute world and an absolute self (valid only for the person himself and in that single moment). He then have a precise range of possibilities to choose from (each one with his personal tendency to do one thing rather than another), and we float by from present to present responding to what we receive at input. In this vision there's really little space for the free will, but is rather bonded to all that we know and think. That's what I wanted to discuss.
Edited by Andreas798 (12/23/13 01:16 PM)
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WhoManBeing
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: Andreas798]
#19316115 - 12/23/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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asking questions that are presented with a difficulty answering could be as self trickery to understanding. all that your eye does see is as true as it get. understanding, as easy as seeing an apple and knowing that word 'apple' is used to describe such mass to others for understanding. many different perspectives are present. if five sit around a table looking at an apple, all five sets of eyes see a different picture, yet, all can speak of apple on table. if five different voice of tongues, easy translation to apple and table.
now, you share of discussion while use of methadone. eye see, when the bodhi is not growing, sustaining life with proper nutrition of body and mind, thoughts become incomplete, misunderstood, or just off the wall ludicrous. personally, experienced negative thoughts casing misunderstanding, fear when truely am hungry. as though the body is under conditions of weakness and will disguise the hunger as distructive thoughts as body feels.
Eightfold Path
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: Andreas798]
#19316505 - 12/23/13 02:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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not sure why the terms absolute and precise come into anything at the scale of human knowledge.
(although for craft and tech a certain degree of precision and tooling is given)
for the most part nothing is exact or precise except interlocking infrastructural components.
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Andreas798
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: WhoManBeing]
#19316945 - 12/23/13 04:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's absolute in the sense that we can always add informations and go deeper into the knowledge of your self, as well as into the "inner world around you". I instead use precise in terms of what I call a "potentially infinite" number of possibilities, a number that, big or small, "exists" and "could" be potentially calculated.
Quote:
WhoManBeing said: all that your eye does see is as true as it get. understanding, as easy as seeing an apple and knowing that word 'apple' is used to describe such mass to others for understanding. many different perspectives are present. if five sit around a table looking at an apple, all five sets of eyes see a different picture, yet, all can speak of apple on table. if five different voice of tongues, easy translation to apple and table.
Yes, but only because we have a common conception of the things around us. Maybe an apple could pretty mutch seem an apple to everybody, bot say, for instance, a random absract concapt, like love, or politics. Everyone has a more or less conscious idea of those things, which fits perfectly in their own Weltanshaung, their own vision of the world.
Take socialism. How many point of views are on this? And how many of them are at least fair? Most of the people have their built-up american misconception of this great theft in which the government owns everything and everyone else suffer. Apart form the political view, how much can such different opinions change one's ideas in all the parts of his life? This is just an example, you get what I mean.
PS:about the methadone, I know the error it was, I was young and stupid and a cheap drug than made us happy for 3 days (at least at first) was perfect for us. I would never do that again, though I had really good incipts for what I now turned in well-thought ideas.
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WhoManBeing
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: Andreas798]
#19317082 - 12/23/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
WhoManBeing said: all that your eye does see is as true as it get. understanding, as easy as seeing an apple and knowing that word 'apple' is used to describe such mass to others for understanding. many different perspectives are present. if five sit around a table looking at an apple, all five sets of eyes see a different picture, yet, all can speak of apple on table. if five different voice of tongues, easy translation to apple and table.
Yes, but only because we have a common conception of the things around us. Maybe an apple could pretty mutch seem an apple to everybody, bot say, for instance, a random absract concapt, like love, or politics. Everyone has a more or less conscious idea of those things, which fits perfectly in their own Weltanshaung, their own vision of the world.
Take socialism. How many point of views are on this? And how many of them are at least fair? Most of the people have their built-up american misconception of this great theft in which the government owns everything and everyone else suffer. Apart form the political view, how much can such different opinions change one's ideas in all the parts of his life? This is just an example, you get what I mean.
same as for Love and politics, an individual perceives with own stance when viewing. details to where information on certain ideas is a vast as the deep blue sea. if one was to study any given topic, a wide range of published material is out there for their grasp when coming to an understanding settled.
Apart form the political view, how much can such different opinions change one's ideas in all the parts of his life? all of opinions that can change one's life for the better, the more the merrier.
when laying foundation for a house, you follow proper procedures and poor concrete. no need to question the happening as to... that is how done and it works.
that is all can share. for i be one out of the many blisters in the sun shedding light to the whole.
peaceLove
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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viktor
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: Andreas798]
#19318084 - 12/23/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Are you German? (just curious)
For me, a huge part of it is being comfortable with/in the mystery. I really don't have a fucking clue about anything but as long as I don't let that upset me I can function pretty good
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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WhoManBeing
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: viktor]
#19318203 - 12/23/13 08:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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for who you ask?
1/4 German. Heinz 57.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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viktor
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: WhoManBeing]
#19318436 - 12/23/13 09:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Guess you're new here, but in the top part of my post it says Re:Andreas798
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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WhoManBeing
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: viktor]
#19319098 - 12/23/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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oh eye see what not before
been 8 years here. was HugADeadHead.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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teknix
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: WhoManBeing] 1
#19319440 - 12/24/13 01:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
How do we transform them in a finite system of ideas that we can call "self"?
Why would you want to?
I think a lot of it comes from our surroundings at first. People giving you idea's and concepts about who you are from an early age, simply by saying you are this or that and you deciding to accept it as truth.
We are kind of manipulated into it by society, and it grows on us and becomes our subjective, yet false reality. In actuality all those idea's and thoughts that make up the self are just that, idea's and thoughts.
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Andreas798
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: viktor]
#19319489 - 12/24/13 02:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I lived in Berlin for some months, and I have an uncle there, but no, I'm half swedish-half italian...
teknix, you are completely right. But this process happens anyway and making it conscious is the first step to build an informed vision of the world. you can then scroll down everything you thought to know and revise all of that.
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WhoManBeing
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Re: Epistemology or where does human knowledge come from? [Re: Andreas798]
#19321044 - 12/24/13 12:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Four Noble Truths - reality of suffering as part of conditioned existence - suffering has casual arising - end of suffering; Nirvana - Path leads to Awakening
the Path - perfect vision - perfect aspiration - whole speech - integral action - proper lively hood - full effort - thorough awareness - full samadhi; state of consciousness induced by complete meditation
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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