|
larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
|
|
I like you.
|
TopPmz
<No Title>


Registered: 01/13/13
Posts: 2,615
Loc: FL
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
|
I agreed with you about the underlying conditions, so using that to argue against me is invalid. It's possible that weed wasn't the catalyst is his situation, or at least not exclusively, but it certainly had something to do with it. Whether you agree with it or not, weed does have the potential to bring underlying psychological/physiological issues out in the open.
-------------------- "Freedom Isn't Free" is only half correct. True freedom doesn't exist in the society we exist in. What the saying really means is "The Illusion of Freedom Isn't Free"
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Weed isn't a big deal [Re: TopPmz]
#19313318 - 12/22/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
i DO indeed agree with that. that's EXACTLY what i'm saying.
it doesn't however "cause said conditions" is what i've been trying to establish here, all along.
|
TopPmz
<No Title>


Registered: 01/13/13
Posts: 2,615
Loc: FL
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
|
Ok, we're on the same page then.
-------------------- "Freedom Isn't Free" is only half correct. True freedom doesn't exist in the society we exist in. What the saying really means is "The Illusion of Freedom Isn't Free"
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Weed isn't a big deal [Re: TopPmz]
#19313342 - 12/22/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
XLCaps said: I like you.
i like you too, you're not too quick to judge. feelin' me out and shit. we can agree to disagree, can we not? because i find fault or wrongness in a reasoning or conclusion or a fact, does that make my assertions any less true? does that make yours? honesty is the best policy when it comes to providing consensus of facts.Quote:
TopPmz said: Ok, we're on the same page then.
i know we were, it's just hard to explain something like this, without having to repeat yourself twenty times, apparently.
|
birdland

Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
|
|
Weed can certainly cause and exacerbate an increased heart-rate, paranoia, anxiety, feelings of panic, etc.
Is that what this argument was about? Those are well known and documented effects...
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Weed isn't a big deal [Re: birdland]
#19313451 - 12/22/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
only one of those is true.
you know what else can cause paranoia, anxiety, feelings of panic? dangerous heart rate increase, and blood pressure rise.
ie infarction
that can, and coming close to it, can cause all of the pronounced mental and stress effects.
weird eh?
yes, weed can cause a heart rate increase... so can ingesting any substance that crosses the blood brain barrier.
PS: dialectics can be confusing... my argument is for explaining how "paranoia isn't caused by weed, and that IF paranoia is present before and/or after consuming weed; proves that weed isn't the cause of the paranoia, it is rather an exacerbation of an underlying condition."
Edited by akira_akuma (12/22/13 07:58 PM)
|
birdland

Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
|
|
Everyone is different but getting stoned will increase my heart rate moreso than taking speed, which is peculiar.
I find it ridiculous that you don't believe weed can cause Quote:
paranoia, anxiety, feelings of panic
These are not even uncommon effects, though they vary greatly in severity from one person to the next.
Once I was really stoned playing bass at home by myself and then I heard what I believe was someone throwing up in my bathroom. I immediately concluded it was a ghost that was going to haunt/kill me as I was hearing this vomiting very vividly. So I worked up the courage to go check in the bathroom honestly terrified by what I was about to see, and of course there was no one there.
Now I don't even believe in ghosts or paranormal sort of shit and I've never had any delusional/paranoid experience that comes the slightest bit close to this while sober. But no hang on, it wasn't an unfortunate reaction to being too high because weed can't make you paranoid.
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Weed isn't a big deal [Re: birdland]
#19313495 - 12/22/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
you don't believe in something? sounds like you believe there is something to believe. sure your mind isn't just more prone to "wondering" whilst high? does this not sound like a logical conclusion...?
|
birdland

Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
|
|
Okay to be more clear - I don't believe in that concept of "ghost" as something that floats around after someone dies and goes and haunts people and doesn't have to obey the laws of physics. In the same vein I don't believe in "god" as some dude that sits back and watches this all unfolding and loves us all but won't stop you from burning in hell for eternity if you choose to have gay sex.
Quote:
sure your mind isn't just more prone to "wondering" whilst high? does this not sound like a logical conclusion...?
It sure is. The difference between this story and normally when my mind is "wondering" is that I don't freak out and have my heart popping out of my throat from a simply "wondering" mind.
|
birdland

Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
|
|
You should probably go let erowid know that they screwed up their effects lists for cannibis since I found the following effects listed
Quote:
racing heart, agitation, feeling tense mild to severe anxiety panic attacks in sensitive users or with very high doses paranoid & anxious thoughts more frequent
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Weed isn't a big deal [Re: birdland]
#19313584 - 12/22/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
weed increases heart rate, which in turn can cause stress, which can in turn cause your heart to start beating faster and can cause anxiety which can lead to paranoia with an already "wondering mind"; and with an increased heart rate leading to increased Catecholamine leading to increased blood glucose which can cause not only anxiety, but hallucinations (and delusional psychosis at dangerous enough levels), paranoia and other delusional thinking patterns; which in turn can account for your symptoms that you had.
plus, not too mention THC, being a psychedelic, can increase the awareness of these conditions, and alter the "brain's dictation" (in other words, can confuse or mix communications and messages in the brain) of subsequent electrical signals.
|
TopPmz
<No Title>


Registered: 01/13/13
Posts: 2,615
Loc: FL
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
|
I thought we were on the same page, but you're literally saying that weed causes on symptom, which causes another, which causes another.
That makes weed the cause of the resulting disorder/illness/whatever.
-------------------- "Freedom Isn't Free" is only half correct. True freedom doesn't exist in the society we exist in. What the saying really means is "The Illusion of Freedom Isn't Free"
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Weed isn't a big deal [Re: birdland]
#19313605 - 12/22/13 08:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
birdland said: You should probably go let erowid know that they screwed up their effects lists for cannibis since I found the following effects listed
Quote:
racing heart, agitation, feeling tense mild to severe anxiety panic attacks in sensitive users or with very high dose paranoid & anxious thoughts more frequent
i like how carefully and exquisitely they worded this part of the list... it seems that all of the above can be explained by the increased heart rate. seems like they know what they're talking about, only can people read something without it needn't be spoken aloud to them; or without due dictation; to actually be understood past their own focal misapprehension of what and why they are reading it?
a list is a list, it is not a fact, nor is it ardent to be known as fact, it is a list; of effects described by people; with LOOSE interpretation.
that list means no more then what i've already stated myself, as providence.
|
birdland

Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
|
Re: Weed isn't a big deal [Re: birdland]
#19313618 - 12/22/13 08:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
weed increases heart rate, which in turn can cause stress, which can in turn cause your heart to start beating faster and can cause anxiety which can lead to paranoia
This whole chain reaction theory of yours can be reversed and would still be logical. Do you have any decent sources to back it up? Not that it would matter anyway since with this theory of yours the effects of the weed are still leading to the paranoia and anxiety, which you may have overlooked...
Quote:
that list means no more then what i've already stated myself, as providence.
I'll take erowids word over yours
Edited by birdland (12/22/13 08:48 PM)
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Weed isn't a big deal [Re: TopPmz]
#19313622 - 12/22/13 08:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
TopPmz said: I thought we were on the same page, but you're literally saying that weed causes on symptom, which causes another, which causes another.
That makes weed the cause of the resulting disorder/illness/whatever.
no, i am not. i am not "literally" saying anything... my post is clearly in the form of a figurative explanation for the paranoia he describes.
weed isn't a cause of any of those things, except increased heart rate. those other aforementioned things are symptoms of the concluding effects of the increased heart rate; which COULD BE caused by the weed.
more often then not, weed causing an increased heart rate, won't even begin to scratch the surface of those other inherent symptoms, not without amazing happenstance, or ANOTHER underlying cause(s) contributing to further symptomatic behavior.
there is a HUGE difference between a CAUSE and A SYMPTOM.
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Weed isn't a big deal [Re: birdland]
#19313628 - 12/22/13 08:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
birdland said:
Quote:
weed increases heart rate, which in turn can cause stress, which can in turn cause your heart to start beating faster and can cause anxiety which can lead to paranoia
This whole chain reaction theory of yours can be reversed and would still be logical. Do you have any decent sources to back it up? Not that it would matter anyway since with this theory of yours the effects of the weed are still leading to the paranoia and anxiety, which you may have overlooked...
Quote:
that list means no more then what i've already stated myself, as providence.
I'll take erowids word over yours 
is that supposed to be glib? i already said, their list is good. just like i could describe it, only i'd not make a list, and i'd ascribe to what causes lead to what symptoms and what symptoms lead to waht causes. more in depth, like i am doing now.
and ya, YOU still wouldn't read it or take it seriously... even if the logic is backed up. so? oh well. it's not my fault you are confused, i don't have to feel bad.
oh and PS: like i said to the first guy i was talking to who thought he should rather be arguing then just accepting a point of view (other than his own )
... the paranoia probably most likely came first, then the anxiety, then the increased heart rate leading to chest pains and then back to "him blaming weed".
like you said; in reverse, it still works.
|
Enjoywho
Rags to Bitches



Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 20,880
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
underfliptown said:
Quote:
Synthe said: tl;dr
ignored
Tldr
-------------------- "I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." "In the days of kings and queens I was a jester." "And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies "Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"
|
birdland

Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
|
|
Quote:
is that supposed to be glib? i already said, their list is good.
Right my bad then, I misinterpreted part of your last post. 
Quote:
like you said; in reverse, it still works.
I thought you were arguing that it always works in the order you mentioned?
Also I see no reason to believe that these effects won't occur independently. I can't be bothered reading sources to prove either way tbh because I just don't care enough but are you actually basing this theory off decent sources/studies or just your own thoughts?
|
TopPmz
<No Title>


Registered: 01/13/13
Posts: 2,615
Loc: FL
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
|
You're just arguing to argue. Repeating the same thing doesn't make it any more true.
The fact of the matter is, your body chemistry is different from mine, which is different than his, which is different than the next guy's. That being the case, weed has the potential to affect each of us very, very differently. And while it might not cause those symptoms for you, or me, or anyone you've ever seen smoke weed, it could cause those symptoms in them.
Like I said earlier, neither of us has any idea what they experienced, because we didn't experience it. To tell someone what they experienced can't have happened the way they say it did, and to continue to argue with them about it, is nothing short of arrogance.
-------------------- "Freedom Isn't Free" is only half correct. True freedom doesn't exist in the society we exist in. What the saying really means is "The Illusion of Freedom Isn't Free"
|
|