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OnlineKickleM
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the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom?
    #19312574 - 12/22/13 04:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #19312643 - 12/22/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

wizzdum:jimmorrison:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #19312897 - 12/22/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

divergence :zappa:


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
    #19312911 - 12/22/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



in pursuit of happiness
total togetherness
its such an elusive thing
so we hope and sing
mount everest
climb it and never rest
limbs get sour and even spine get test

always pursuit you can gain it
some get a lot of the pot but dem still dont attain it
captured and claim it name it and frame it
the strongest will survive and maintain it
visions with ambition and nuh ramp at all
build a step with stumbling blocks and climb the wall
you have been chosen now time to hear the call
jah power sign and sealer
question to answer and earthly tings
laughter joy and sorrow is what life will bring
calculate it and simplify
give it more try one more

devoted to your dream reach out and grab it
promoted by the clean real life habit
you got to watch your back or frienemy will stab it
take care of a your soul or babylon will rob it
dem words nuh have no weight dem just pod it
mind it suck upon your brain and mad it
pressure nonstop dem multiply and add it
the reason for it all we forgot it

there is so much to erase
but there is a time and place
i can see it on your face
heartbroken human face
nothing to replace
all the moments gone to waste
find an open space
and leave your trace


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #19313139 - 12/22/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Wisdom

I'm just guessing (when am I not), but I'd say that for the most part, wisdom is a way to see truth. Or a form of truth relative to the individual. It's nothing esoteric, it's just a way of perceiving the world.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
    #19314632 - 12/23/13 03:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?




i split open and melt


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19314785 - 12/23/13 05:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

When do they diverge?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Deviate]
    #19314849 - 12/23/13 05:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

At the fork where knowledge meets remorse.



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19314855 - 12/23/13 05:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

GB tells funny stories in his concerts. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
    #19314886 - 12/23/13 06:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The more pursue, the more you are wronged, though you should note is isnt your fault, but rather the assholes who brainwash hummanity.. kind of screwing around with your head, and misdefining logic.. keep pursuing I say.. even though I know you will never reach a ultimate truth.. it is still something each and everyone needs to and will expereance one time or an other..

If you want to be wise, you just have to philosopher alot and keep a very open mind... though you should note it will drive you mad, and you alone will need to be master of this madness as it not to master you. And even more important; why do you wish to become wise?

To become all knowing? -and what would this help you when you cannot speak a word to another human, being it they are so dumb you cannot really fanthom it.. all alone..

To help others? -then it is important to note you may be of more help not being all knowing.

To advance upon your path.. -now this is a tricky one... in a state of empathy, would you be able to leave everyone you know to their suffering, while you become peaceful.. could you become peaceful and loving, abliss knowing this? You be careful when chosing your balance.. for complete apathy brings only misery, yet taking the form of a true angel is even worse..

May this be of help to the one who needs it.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icyus]
    #19314898 - 12/23/13 06:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Who brainwashed the brainwashers?  How did it begin?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
    #19314902 - 12/23/13 06:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Did it begin? Does it end?


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
    #19314905 - 12/23/13 06:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Didn't you once say on these boards you grew up around Grand Rapids? I saw Greg Brown play at some lil' Christian college there in my teens many years ago, Calvin College.  It was strangely progressive in my estimation of the Midwest, had Tracy Chapman playing the following week, and I got a tidbit of a socially conscious vibe from my very brief few hours at its auditorium.  I drove there in this wicked torrential downpour and was deadlocked in thick, aggressive Michigan traffic on I-96 forcing me to go a good 85 mph.  Of course I was stoned out of my gourd, which I know better than to do now, but alas... and I"m a total PNW driving Portlander ninny type, so I was gritting my teeth the whole way as my buddy slept through the whole thing to wake up in Grand Rapids calm and refreshed for the show :tongue:.

But yah, GB is an amazing storyteller, has this very chill grandfatherly presence about him.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19314978 - 12/23/13 06:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Didn't you once say on these boards you grew up around Grand Rapids? I saw Greg Brown play at some lil' Christian college there in my teens many years ago, Calvin College.  It was strangely progressive in my estimation of the Midwest, had Tracy Chapman playing the following week, and I got a tidbit of a socially conscious vibe from my very brief few hours at its auditorium.  I drove there in this wicked torrential downpour and was deadlocked in thick, aggressive Michigan traffic on I-96 forcing me to go a good 85 mph.  Of course I was stoned out of my gourd, which I know better than to do now, but alas... and I"m a total PNW driving Portlander ninny type, so I was gritting my teeth the whole way as my buddy slept through the whole thing to wake up in Grand Rapids calm and refreshed for the show :tongue:.

But yah, GB is an amazing storyteller, has this very chill grandfatherly presence about him.




My sister attended Calvin college but I saw GB out here in Southern Oregon. Should we ever meet up I'll provide the Kratom.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
    #19315042 - 12/23/13 07:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

A lady and her friend I knew from when I worked in Columbus, OH plan to make a trip to Sacramento sometime this Winter and we've been talking meeting up half way, will shoot you a :pm: if that pans out man.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineabsols
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Registered: 11/10/13
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19315083 - 12/23/13 07:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

if you are wise you would seek to be true to see where it would lead farest possible to yourself superiority truly

if you are originally true you would seek to be wise in the same mean

like in fact of existence, objective and right are the two things

objective is to true superiority existing fact
right is to freedom ways, which is more superiority potentially

right is through individuality
and objective is through reality with else existence

so what enjoy superiority would prefer to be more free
and what enjoy to be within others would prefer to be more objective

enjoying is being positively free about, like in enjoying something one gives freely more without noticing, so stay longer positive for the efforts in staying being true by giving plus right for free

like we can picture how some enjoy making the others free, others enjoy making reality free

who enjoy making others free like being real more
who enjoy making reality more present like being free more

but all that is not what matter really, it is simply the ways to stay in right existence realms of truth superiority so infinite rights existence conception, infinity rights are what exist really, that is how evil is never real.. evil cant exist but through negative force powers, through rights existence weakness abuses

it doesn't really matter also for what it not truly the fact of existence, which stay being free out of nothing seen or at the back of everything
this is also why it is too hard to prove evil beings existence life

that is how actually what matter really is positive factor, the existence fact.. while to me positive is freedom, when for others positive is life which is also free 

but why also, who appreciate life could mean their positive lives alone, and who appreciate freedom could mean possessing some creations of things alone .. so it is not a rule of truth that matter really

what matter is the positive end factor that any need and want of truth

positive is everything, it is the common factor of all and any reference in infinite existence rights conception

positive is freedom
positive is constancy
positive is life
positive is reality
positive is objective
positive is present existence...

so positive is the value of all values base
so positive is to truth value.. like what everyone wants to be through positive knowledge, while the fact that positive is true, only its fact existence is right the positive fact freedom

which prove the basic rule of truth, positive is always superior to nothing and to negative of course
positive is to absolute superiority for sure, so positive is superior to superiority because it is an absolute value, the fact of staying matter the most





Edited by absols (12/23/13 09:59 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19315245 - 12/23/13 08:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Please do that.  :fuckyeahdance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Deviate]
    #19315576 - 12/23/13 10:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
When do they diverge?




When the thinker of the two thoughts ascribes different meaning to them, I can't make them diverge due to my definition (or lack thereof) of the terms

What I think matters is that you don't let these concepts diverge from yourself, wisdom is your nature, truth is your nature, if you allow these concepts to diverge from yourself & become phenomenal then you can say wisdom is this, truth is that... but if you keep them in your heart, as your very self, you can not say what they are, you can only be that

I can see how some people might prefer seeking wisdom over truth, as it implies more of a state of being rather than attaining some thing called truth, or wisdom could be taken as seeing things as they are rather than seeking some hidden thing called truth, but really they are one

What I find amusing is wisdom is not knowing anything, it's not a state of knowing, its a state of unknowing, openness, boundlessness, if it was a state of knowing it would be closed, with boundary, and that could not truly be called wise in my opinion


--------------------


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Offlinedeff
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19315738 - 12/23/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yeah i think of wisdom and truth interchangeably too. i used to prefer the term wisdom, from more exposure to it, but i don't really have a preference now. if there is a divergence in the terms, i think for me it would be that truth signifies an end result whereas wisdom is both a process and an attitude that allows one to open to truth. but everyone likely has differences in their ideas of what the two words imply :smile:


--------------------



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OfflineIcyus
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: deff]
    #19315754 - 12/23/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think a mix between danceband music and dubstep would be nice..

People have different expereances and different opinions and meanings of everything.. people saying this however are insane.. though the people saying that usually havent a clue what the word even means... yet those who say such would already be mad.. I am mad.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
    #19315835 - 12/23/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

interbeing

devoted to your dream reach out and grab it
promoted by the clean real life habit


all in the one, one in the all


everything effects me, and everything I do effects all

sickness is reality... the more wholesome, the less sickness, sickness isn't truthfully anything but what it is without connotation... wholesome no connotation. Wholesome brings benefit to the one and to the all in many realistic ways(though I guess in truth, what does life or death matter, sickness or a thriving system, in truth the repercussions/benefits are without connotation...So actualizing truth is wisdom, if wisdom means developing a mind that dwells happily in what is, as is, without obscuration. Perhaps actualizing truth is the wisest course of action. Become truth, unitary vision without obscuration... dwelling happily/contently in what is; the rest will follow/spread/cultivate from the presence of truth itself; the ripples will expound

perhaps the reason truth/reality actualized is full of so much bliss/peace/happiness/contentment(defiling I know) is because of the contrast to the delusion/human creativity that had been experienced and actualized. So without personal feeling or opinions, dwelling in what is, as it is, uncreated, unknown, without concrete conception, radiates impersonally in such a way.

without personal feeling is true?;(true love, true equanimity)love/self-love/compassion/self-compassion promotes healing/selflessness, healing/selflessness promotes freedom impersonally; experiences-no experiencer(no-conception), actions-no actor(no-conception)

though in the grand scheme it obviously was birthed from personal feeling/opinions. Can't have one without the ooooother.


Edited by Sse (12/25/13 02:34 PM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icyus]
    #19316229 - 12/23/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Frustration is implicit in any attempt to express the deepest self" (Patricia Hampl).

Rely on the dharma, not the teacher.
Rely on the meaning, not the words.
Rely on explicit meanings, not implicit meanings.
Rely on wisdom, not on consciousness.

or

Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality;
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words;
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one;
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgmental mind.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/23/13 02:17 PM)


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Deviate]
    #19316546 - 12/23/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
When do they diverge?




They may not for everyone but the way I see it truth is most often a cultural idea more than anything. Whether that be scientific facts as truth and so pursue science in search of the truth, or the Biblical word as truth and so study the Bible for truth, what have you. I see these as attempts to get to the heart of existence.

Wisdom I think is the same with one major difference. Wisdom eventually splits from the truth because a wise man acknowledges that there is no containing/finding the truth. No way to capture it. And so if one pursues wisdom, eventually they have to let go of the pursuit of truth as it is seen to be a futile effort. That there is no heart of existence to get to.

The only thing pursuing the heart of existence does is put the heart at a distance, as something to get to. And pursuing wisdom allows one to let go of that distance. This is all my opinion of course.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
    #19317029 - 12/23/13 04:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

My opinion then..purpleeye.. you are wise indeed.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
    #19317085 - 12/23/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"The development of wisdom is greatly facilitated by seeing our little hypocrisies and large illusions and learning to be more forthright and honest with ourselves and others.

Wisdom is higher consciousness, wakefulness, and awareness. Wisdom is self-knowledge: Wisdom is truth manifested as clarity of vision. Wisdom sees that light and dark are inseparable and that shadows are also light."

Awakening the Buddha Within by Lama Surya Das


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
    #19319033 - 12/23/13 11:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?




Neither.  I choose the pursuit of happiness.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: deCypher]
    #19319163 - 12/23/13 11:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"nothing is sufficient" - propagandha


also, I left out above where I said above(complete text):

"wisdom is seeing the true nature of things-exactly as described in the Four Noble Truths, or the Four Facts of Life according to enlightened vision. Wisdom is higher consciousness, wakefulness, awareness. Wisdom is self-knowledge: wisdom is truth manifested as clarity of vision. Wisdom sees that light and dark are inseparable and the shadows are also light."

he gives a brief summary of the four noble truths earlier in the book(then he goes on to explain more.) Here's the summary:

The first noble truth: Life is difficult.

The second noble truth: Life is difficult because of attachment, because we crave satisfaction in ways that are inherently dissatisfying.

The third noble truth: The possibility of liberation from difficulties exists for everyone.

The fourth noble truth: the way to realize this liberation and enlightenment is by leading a compassionate life of virtue, wisdom, and meditation. These three spiritual trainings comprise the teachings of the Eight-Fold path to enlightenment.


I like it without also :sun:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/23/13 11:51 PM)


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: deCypher]
    #19319616 - 12/24/13 03:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
When do they diverge?




They may not for everyone but the way I see it truth is most often a cultural idea more than anything. Whether that be scientific facts as truth and so pursue science in search of the truth, or the Biblical word as truth and so study the Bible for truth, what have you. I see these as attempts to get to the heart of existence.

Wisdom I think is the same with one major difference. Wisdom eventually splits from the truth because a wise man acknowledges that there is no containing/finding the truth. No way to capture it. And so if one pursues wisdom, eventually they have to let go of the pursuit of truth as it is seen to be a futile effort. That there is no heart of existence to get to.

The only thing pursuing the heart of existence does is put the heart at a distance, as something to get to. And pursuing wisdom allows one to let go of that distance. This is all my opinion of course.




Nice, recently I tend to think its fine to seek anything you wish whether it be truth or whatever as long you include the wisdom that what you are seeking is not separate from yourself, it makes it less of a desperate seeking and more of a constant finding

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?




Neither.  I choose the pursuit of happiness.




I don't feel happiness is different from wisdom or truth, I certainly find no lasting happiness in doing ignorant things


--------------------


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
    #19320580 - 12/24/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

rest in the beneficial, life is beautiful

compassion is self-compassion


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/24/13 11:31 AM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19320599 - 12/24/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?




Neither.  I choose the pursuit of happiness.




I don't feel happiness is different from wisdom or truth, I certainly find no lasting happiness in doing ignorant things




Perhaps not, but sometimes I feel like it's the examined life that isn't worth living, contrary to what Socrates espoused.  Sometimes knowing too much can be hazardous for your sanity, let alone your blissful ignorance.

Take for example someone who believes that when they die they'll go to Heaven.  Upon further inspection, reading and learning, they come to the (arguably) more intelligent conclusion that they don't know that for sure--it's possible, or even likely, that this life is all they get--that's that, nothing more.  Something tells me most people won't be happier after having arrived at this realization.  Same goes for knowledge of a lot of our shields against death anxiety, not just religion: culture itself or even some of the building blocks that make up our personality were erected by our minds explicitly so as to avoid facing the ugly truths out there.

It ain't all puppies and roses out there in the real world.  Sometimes ignorance really can be bliss.  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: deCypher]
    #19320620 - 12/24/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

its true many people find solace in hiding truth from themselves but the ones I know at least are very susceptible to emotional outbreaks... makes me think self-deception isn't the lasting bliss but they are still content to not be forthright or to see particularly harsh truths realistically

like the dog that blames the dirt clod for it hitting him in the head, when the human threw it.

the dirt clod is our dissatisfaction, blaming outside/else for internal difficulties, when the seed is ours sown and coddled.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/24/13 11:22 AM)


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19321132 - 12/24/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
What I think matters is that you don't let these concepts diverge from yourself, wisdom is your nature, truth is your nature, if you allow these concepts to diverge from yourself & become phenomenal then you can say wisdom is this, truth is that...




This is bullshit. You can't just know truth in your heart. People deceive themselves all the time. To know truth takes work, time effort attention scrutiny skepticism. A lot of reality is counter intuitive, and requires revealing.

Truth is an attribute of information. Without something to be true or false, truth is intangible, and doesnt make sense. one does not find general truth, one finds varioustruths embedded within one another.Each moment and situation deserves the same skeptical attention, scrutiny

To obtain truth, use attention, scrutiny, and skepticism to navigate and examine reality.

To obtain wisdom, one must excercise their will, and participate in experience. Live a lot. As you experience life, you become wiser. Wisdom is not a general attribute; you do not become wise in aspects of reality that you do not engage with.


Quote:

Sse said:
The first noble truth: Life is difficult.

The second noble truth: Life is difficult because of attachment, because we crave satisfaction in ways that are inherently dissatisfying.

The third noble truth: The possibility of liberation from difficulties exists for everyone.

The fourth noble truth: the way to realize this liberation and enlightenment is by leading a compassionate life of virtue, wisdom, and meditation. These three spiritual trainings comprise the teachings of the Eight-Fold path to enlightenment.





This is all neither noble, or does any of it necessitate truth. This is pseudeo spiritual intellectually drivel. You can't just simplify people down to four rules that are neither universal, or rules at all.


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OfflineKetakitty
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19321178 - 12/24/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

pursuit of truth is pursuit of wisdom.  truth is one, one is eternity & infinite


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Ketakitty]
    #19321268 - 12/24/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

one is the whole number between zero and two


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19321277 - 12/24/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

doesn't have to be taken to heart :p I think they call it noble due to the place from where it supposedly came... very simplified and condensed version... would make more sense if the rest was read I think

not scripture to live and die by... only tools for investigating

"Working with mind and its essential nature, rather than struggling to alter mere circumstantial conditions, reveals reality- both as it is and as it seemingly appears. Penetrating insight reveals that the responsibility for what we experience lies nowhere but within ourselves, and that the steering wheel of our own lives and evolution is in our hands. Wouldn't it be irresponsible to overlook this fact and continue to uncontrollably thrash around, thrashing others as well as ourselves? Check and see: Are your hands on the steering wheel of your life, or are they holding the rearview mirror while you wonder why you are careening around in such an unintended fashion?"

Awakening the Buddha Within by Lama Surya Das

I don't deny that it could not be completely universal but if I reflect on everyone I've ever known, it does apply to the majority id say

mindfulness is a form of meditation imo

aren't rules, just relative truth


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/24/13 01:54 PM)


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
    #19321321 - 12/24/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"I think they call it noble due to the place from where it supposedly came"............You think? Supposedly? Why not be certain and familiar and confident with the pseudo religious words you are spouting? Don't pretend to understand it; scrutinize it. Does it make sense? Is it real? Is it grounded in history?

"mind's essential nature".....,..What does this mean?

"penetrating insight"......What does this mean?

These things don't make sense to me. How about you stop copy and pasting and try to describe reality in your own words.


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19321329 - 12/24/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

relative truth is a literal oxymoron


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19321368 - 12/24/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Its not something I buy into so that's why I say supposedly... they are teachings from the Buddha hence the reason why its been called noble by so many and passed down in that context(not positive on the origin of the word noble, who knows what context was originally implied.)

in a hurry here but ill see what I can muster

for myself the four noble truths have proven true in my life... relative truth, in relation to my experience... proven true

I've already explained in my own words, though not really since its all things ive read. cycle through my posts if u need

Reality as is, is uncreated that's really all that needs to be known imo

minds essential nature is uncreated, without concept, as is

insight into the nature of our minds... cause and effect.. the seed you sow is what will show... samsara and nirvana are one... light and darkness are inseperable... darkness can be transformed into light with the power of letting go.

quit shaping me with your mind :p

my practice mainly consists of sustained inquiry without conclusion... all grist for thee mill

open minded, unconfined, nonjudgemental, equanimity is whats manifesting


all things can be made useful, somethings I don't agree with but in context and in the gist of things, and from personal experience id say it is very conducive to liberation from the minds continuous pattern of thought and the weighing negative aspects of an average(or most) subjective life


Edited by Sse (12/25/13 11:47 AM)


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: deCypher]
    #19321650 - 12/24/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?




Neither.  I choose the pursuit of happiness.




I don't feel happiness is different from wisdom or truth, I certainly find no lasting happiness in doing ignorant things




Perhaps not, but sometimes I feel like it's the examined life that isn't worth living, contrary to what Socrates espoused.  Sometimes knowing too much can be hazardous for your sanity, let alone your blissful ignorance.

Take for example someone who believes that when they die they'll go to Heaven.  Upon further inspection, reading and learning, they come to the (arguably) more intelligent conclusion that they don't know that for sure--it's possible, or even likely, that this life is all they get--that's that, nothing more.  Something tells me most people won't be happier after having arrived at this realization.  Same goes for knowledge of a lot of our shields against death anxiety, not just religion: culture itself or even some of the building blocks that make up our personality were erected by our minds explicitly so as to avoid facing the ugly truths out there.

It ain't all puppies and roses out there in the real world.  Sometimes ignorance really can be bliss.  :shrug:




I fully agree that it ain't for everyone. It can wreck ya. Its risk reward and it has to be weighed. My intuition told me to go ahead and examine away despite any emotional or mental roadblocks. I committed to it long before it ever turned ugly and by the time it did there was no turning back. Its turned out pretty well though :sun:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19321683 - 12/24/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roger Wilco said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
What I think matters is that you don't let these concepts diverge from yourself, wisdom is your nature, truth is your nature, if you allow these concepts to diverge from yourself & become phenomenal then you can say wisdom is this, truth is that...




This is bullshit. You can't just know truth in your heart. People deceive themselves all the time. To know truth takes work, time effort attention scrutiny skepticism. A lot of reality is counter intuitive, and requires revealing.

Truth is an attribute of information. Without something to be true or false, truth is intangible, and doesnt make sense. one does not find general truth, one finds varioustruths embedded within one another.Each moment and situation deserves the same skeptical attention, scrutiny

To obtain truth, use attention, scrutiny, and skepticism to navigate and examine reality.

To obtain wisdom, one must excercise their will, and participate in experience. Live a lot. As you experience life, you become wiser. Wisdom is not a general attribute; you do not become wise in aspects of reality that you do not engage with.


Quote:

Sse said:
The first noble truth: Life is difficult.

The second noble truth: Life is difficult because of attachment, because we crave satisfaction in ways that are inherently dissatisfying.

The third noble truth: The possibility of liberation from difficulties exists for everyone.

The fourth noble truth: the way to realize this liberation and enlightenment is by leading a compassionate life of virtue, wisdom, and meditation. These three spiritual trainings comprise the teachings of the Eight-Fold path to enlightenment.





This is all neither noble, or does any of it necessitate truth. This is pseudeo spiritual intellectually drivel. You can't just simplify people down to four rules that are neither universal, or rules at all.





Agree.  It seems fairly often that people who say they know the truth in their heart are just lazy or too afraid of truth.  Often both.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineTycoda
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
    #19321767 - 12/24/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

From my knowledge, wisdom is something that gives us the ability to see the truth, and it is not pursued directly because increasing the awareness of the truth naturally increases the wisdom that is available to us.

There is a line of prayer created by one of the old world prophets, Henoch, that allows us to communicate with our material consciousness, and which explains this phenomenon somewhat (albeit it is the simplest form of prayer to our material consciousness that exists on Earth). Nevertheless, the fifth line in the prayer goes:

Mein tägliches Brot gib mir heute, so ich erkenne meine Schuld und ich erkenne die Wahrheit.

In English, this is translated as:

Give me my daily bread (love and wisdom), so I recognize my responsibility and I recognize the truth.

The translation is not exact, but when I activate it, then the love and wisdom are a source of energy and guidance which make it possible to see the truth. Yet i do not seek the wisdom itself because, rather, the wisdom finds me and therefore guides me to finding the truth as i live and breathe with the love and the wisdom.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19323778 - 12/24/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roger Wilco said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
What I think matters is that you don't let these concepts diverge from yourself, wisdom is your nature, truth is your nature, if you allow these concepts to diverge from yourself & become phenomenal then you can say wisdom is this, truth is that...




This is bullshit. You can't just know truth in your heart. People deceive themselves all the time. To know truth takes work, time effort attention scrutiny skepticism. A lot of reality is counter intuitive, and requires revealing.

Truth is an attribute of information. Without something to be true or false, truth is intangible, and doesnt make sense. one does not find general truth, one finds varioustruths embedded within one another.Each moment and situation deserves the same skeptical attention, scrutiny

To obtain truth, use attention, scrutiny, and skepticism to navigate and examine reality.

To obtain wisdom, one must excercise their will, and participate in experience. Live a lot. As you experience life, you become wiser. Wisdom is not a general attribute; you do not become wise in aspects of reality that you do not engage with.





My only point there is if truth or reality or wisdom exist, they can not exist apart from you


--------------------


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19323918 - 12/25/13 12:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I am going to die one day and gravity will not cease to exist. I don't understand what you are saying. How does truth only exist within people?

Truth is a concept, a human word used to describe reality, but when used in conversation by real people, it can refer to tangible reality. Actual things have actual attributes, and those things don't need you or I for them to exist.

This is not a dream. This is not a ride. You are not flotsam and jetsam.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19323923 - 12/25/13 12:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roger Wilco said:
You are not flotsam and jetsam.




Says who?





--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19323938 - 12/25/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
My only point there is if truth or reality or wisdom exist, they can not exist apart from you





You exist within reality, not the other way around. Reality was here before you got here.

Truth is objective, but we have subjective nature to our perception; However this does not negate truth, it just demands attention, forces us to use scrutiny(respect), and is eased along with skepticism, critical thought and discernment.

Wisdom cannot exist apart from you I agree.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19323973 - 12/25/13 12:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roger Wilco said:
I am going to die one day and gravity will not cease to exist. I don't understand what you are saying. How does truth only exist within people?

Truth is a concept, a human word used to describe reality, but when used in conversation by real people, it can refer to tangible reality. Actual things have actual attributes, and those things don't need you or I for them to exist.

This is not a dream. This is not a ride. You are not flotsam and jetsam.




If you accept what you objectively see as true, that's somewhat logical & fine by me, i wouldn't want to preach otherwise

Some people intuitively feel there is more than what they see & can't help but search for it, to such a one i would say that what they seek can not be apart from them, because when i really understood that i found overwhelming peace

Quote:

I am going to die one day and gravity will not cease to exist.
Truth is a concept, a human word used to describe reality, but when used in conversation by real people, it can refer to tangible reality. Actual things have actual attributes, and those things don't need you or I for them to exist.
This is not a dream. This is not a ride. You are not flotsam and jetsam.




All of this implies belief

Whatever truth is, it does not require our belief in it, it Is


--------------------


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19323978 - 12/25/13 01:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roger Wilco said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
My only point there is if truth or reality or wisdom exist, they can not exist apart from you





You exist within reality, not the other way around. Reality was here before you got here.





I'm just going a step further and saying whatever reality is, you are it
You don't exist within it, you exist as it


--------------------


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19323984 - 12/25/13 01:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Merry Christmas by the way! :awecid:


--------------------


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19324039 - 12/25/13 01:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
I'm just going a step further and saying whatever reality is, you are it
You don't exist within it, you exist as it




A step further than what? You are not reality, you are a part of reality. You don't exist as it, you exist in it.

You are making claims that don't follow the experience of life here in the physical world.

Quote:

The Chronic said:

All of this implies belief





What beliefs are implicated by what I'm saying?


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19324116 - 12/25/13 01:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roger Wilco said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
I'm just going a step further and saying whatever reality is, you are it
You don't exist within it, you exist as it




A step further than what? You are not reality, you are a part of reality. You don't exist as it, you exist in it.

You are making claims that don't follow the experience of life here in the physical world.





I agree, i find reality or truth is not of the physical world

Quote:

Quote:

The Chronic said:

All of this implies belief





What beliefs are implicated by what I'm saying?




Quote:

I am going to die one day and gravity will not cease to exist.
Truth is a concept, a human word used to describe reality, but when used in conversation by real people, it can refer to tangible reality. Actual things have actual attributes, and those things don't need you or I for them to exist.
This is not a dream. This is not a ride. You are not flotsam and jetsam.




Every one of those sentences is a belief

Let agree to disagree, i am not going to believe in the way you see things and i don't require you to believe in the way i see things

All i will say is whatever is Real & True does not require belief


--------------------


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19324160 - 12/25/13 02:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

We are in dissagreement. But I don't concede to shut up yet.

I want to understand your viewpoint, I want to have it elucidated. To me it's nonsense. You wipe your ass, you get hungry, you are flesh and blood you are of the physical world. You can't make up truth. You measure it.

I know I will die. That statement is not an opinion.

Are you saying you don't know if death is real? Get your shit together man, the clock is ticking, you have time to focus your energies and have a meaningfull, enjoyable life.

It would be prudant to actual show how my statements are opinions, and not factual, as opposed to just stating so.

The facts are :I will Die, Gravity will exist after my death, You bleed. You hunger. Your real fingers had to touch real keys to get this conversation going. These are not beliefs or opinions, and if they are demonstrate it to me, show me. Prove it. Back it up.

Your head has these things on it; Eyes, and some various little holes in it to. All these things on your head are for taking in information, data on the physical world. You are optimized for the real world and you will work well in it if you respect it by paying attention to it.

What is reality and truth if it is not of the physical world? Please help me understand.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19324306 - 12/25/13 03:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I simply don't believe that appearance denotes reality, no matter how persistent or obvious anything seems, it is an appearance, to say more about it implies a belief in my opinion
We can describe the way the appearance behaves and call it a fact, but even facts can change according to our knowledge

For a moment, instead of paying attention to appearances, including appearances like thoughts or feelings in your body, without assuming anything, if you zoom in & look at your very sense of self, what do you find?

When i look for myself i don't find anything tangible, i find a self-evident presence that can't be objectified no matter how hard i try to see it, it's total intangibility, yet it IS! I Am, yet i can not find a definition of what I Am!
I shan't describe what this feels like, find out for yourself if it piques your interest, you have a sense of self & you obviously have the faculty to question things


--------------------


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19324328 - 12/25/13 03:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So i think i can boil it down to this:

You, the one to whom all objective tangible appearances appear, itself is intangible & not an object


--------------------


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19324369 - 12/25/13 04:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

My sense of self is dependent upon set and setting. It's different when I'm running full tilt playing soccer, to when I'm laying alone, to when im attentively looking for mushrooms in the forest....etc. It is never the same. My sense of self is created by my activity and experience and it is enriched by my health diet sleep and knowledge.


You don't need a complete definition of what you are. This doesn't make sense. Language is just a tool, a technology, All words are concepts; do not get trapped by them. Go integrate yourself with the physical world, from which you have spawned and you will find tangibility within yourself

Yes life is mysterious, but within that mystery there is endless opportunities for experience in what is knowable. The unknowable has more truths that are yet to be uncovered, and many never to be uncovered.

So what?

There is much that is knowable, measurable, and that is what we call the real world, or the physical world. Don't deny the knowable just because the unknowable exists.

Appearance does not denote reality,because sometimes reality is counter intuitive, and does not always act in conformed ways. But if you study it, you can know it more and more until you die.

The internet is proof. People really studied a lot of shit and put it together, and this shit really works.

Farming is real too. It's real because people took the time to figure it out, and now we both get to be alive because there is food around.

I think it would be great if more people took the time to examine and enjoy the physical world, and not get caught in self oppressing pseudo spiritual notions that negates their mind, and body. If more people did this the near future would have more great things like, medicine, agriculture, the internet, etc.

I don't advocate materialism, I advocate attention. Do not make logical assessments that impress idealism and rationality upon what you are seeing. Use your eyes and your ears and your nose and your voice to inform your ideas, rationale and world view.


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
    #19325177 - 12/25/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"Agree.  It seems fairly often that people who say they know the truth in their heart are just lazy or too afraid of truth.  Often both. "

afraid of what truth? lazy? both? I'm confused, can you elaborate?

what truth do you think is known? that life is difficult due to attachment? that liberation from difficulty exists? Compassion, you are also your perceptions(not apart from you), being kind compassionate and overstanding are as much self relieving as helpful to others, win win situation imo. Letting go itself seems virtuous to me, effective power of self benefit. Wisdom, we have the ability to change our lives, be happier, endure longer, patient, self-compassion. Ignorance of that conditions our mental formations and our dissatisfaction. Constant sustained taking back the reigns of thought pattern... freeing conceptualization and opening our minds to reality. All of our problematic problems and perceptions don't have to be problematic... staying virtuous with yourself and being compassionate with yourself relieves this, because we do have the power. It may be lazier just to psych yourself in the other direction... the mind can be quite secure/insecure/susceptible ruling in its conditioned fashion... it does take effort to turn that around.... for me it has been miraculous... simple and true to the bone... resting in the uncreated, nonjudgmental brings peace, lasting peace. It brings endurance through all of lifes pitfalls... I wouldn't trade it for all the gold in the world.


"On a very subtle, but no less real level, every time you see yourself on one side of the fence, with someone else on the other, you're being tripped up by the challenge of ill will. If you empathize with them-try to see through their eyes-you might miraculously find yourself on the same side. Ill will, left on its own, can easily escalate into mean-spiritedness, anger, or rage, sometimes without our even knowing that the escalation is taking place."
-Lama Surya Das


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/25/13 03:23 PM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19325256 - 12/25/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"The original source text says, "consider how all phenomena are like dreams, and examine the nature of unborn awareness." Things are not what they seem to be; don't be deceived by appearances. The alchemical secret embodied in Buddhism is that nothing is absolutely real; everything is ephemeral, ungovernable, and hollow. Everything is relative and depends upon the mind and its projections and interpretation. How we relate to things makes all the difference. This does not mean that everything exists solely in the mind, as some idealists would have it. It does not mean that nothing matters at all, as nihilists suggest. Nor does it mean that all things are merely projections of mind-for one might just as well then posit that the mind is a projection of all things."

"What it means is that everything is impermanent, interdependent, as malleable as soft plastic. Reality is not fixed. Alter the global situation, atmosphere, or temperature, and all local events are affected. Transform any aspect or part of the universal mandala, the cosmic hologram, and all aspects are affected. Presence of mind, or innate awareness, is the pivot upon which all things turn. The genuine master of mindfulness, who stands nowhere, assumes no position or stance and fits in anywhere-he or she can move the universe. The lever of awareness is in his or her hand, and the fulcrum is nowhere else but the present moment."
-Lama Surya Das


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19325279 - 12/25/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

no need to push away in order to see through

"Because all of us consistently desire, hunger, and thirst for various experiences and different things, we continue to suffer. It's not that we have to get rid of the things we desire. The objects are not the problem. It is our attachment and our identification with what we crave that causes suffering."

Tilopa, a wandering tenth-century yogi, sang, "It is not the outer objects that entangle us. It is the inner clinging that entangles us."

"People who misinterpret the Buddha's teachings often worry that if they rid themselves of craving, they will no longer be able to love or live with passion. Quite the opposite is true. We will still have our healthy desires, but now they wont be contaminated and misdirected by insatiable craving. The Buddha never taught that we shouldn't feel love. In fact, he preached universal love and compassion. One entire sutra spoken by Buddha teaches how we can learn to love, to cultivate loving-kindness, empathy, and inclusiveness. What the Buddha taught is that we shouldn't try to own each other, nor should we become so identified or attached to anything(person, thought, feeling, career, goal, or material object) that we lose sight of reality-of the relativism and changing nature of all that is."

"There is a one-word antidote to thirst or craving: wisdom. The wisdom of freedom from craving. The secret teachings of Tibet tell us that we can rediscover our innate wisdom, awareness, and inner joy through spiritual practices, including meditation, self-inquiry, prayer, and the cultivation of our naturally warm, tender, loving heart. Wisdom is the means to transcend craving and transform a treadmill existence into a loving inspiring garden walk. This is true freedom.

"Speaking to his disciples, the Buddha said, "whoever in this world overcomes this craving so hard to transcend will find that suffering falls away like drops of water falling from a flower."
-lama surya das

hinderance falls away... what else keeps us from experiencing love(true equanimity)/joy/healing in every single moment?

"Then, and now, the hindrances, or challenges, all have the power to distort the seeker's view of reality."

"How do you know that you are confronting a classic "hindrance" on your spiritual path? just ask yourself: Am I losing my sense of balance, my sense of priorities, and my sense of what's really important? Am I being carried away by temporary reactions, by destructive emotions? that's what challenges do; they obstruct your insight and prevent you from seeing things as they really are. They stand between you and the calm clear awareness of the enlightened mind. The Buddha listed five primary challenges:

craving
ill will
sloth and torpor(spiritual laziness)
restlessness
doubt

"A spiritual journey inevitably includes low valleys as well as high mountains, dense forests as well as seemingly barren deserts, plateaus, and plains. This is the landscape and territory of your own being. It is all-revealing and it all needs exploration. Everything you experience along the way can be a way of helping you awaken the Buddha within."

"As you journey, obstacles will attempt you get in your way-for you are in your own way. Recognize the ways that difficulties and challenges are born from your own hang-ups, obscurations, fears and karma. Whether the path on which you find yourself is momentarily steep or level; rough, smooth, or slippery; turbulent or calm, you will prove to be your own greatest asset, as well as your greatest stumbling block. How will you help yourself, and how will you hinder yourself? which habits and patterns will you let go of easily, and which will have the tenacity of superglue? Are we desperate enough to really undergo total change and transformation?"

-Lama Surya Das


Edited by Sse (12/25/13 02:56 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
    #19325711 - 12/25/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There is no wisdom without truth.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #19325724 - 12/25/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That is true, but in ways you cannot yet conscieve. (No offense offcourse)


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
    #19326207 - 12/25/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think I may see what you are saying(edit: when I responded to you above questioning your statement, I didn't see the above part of your quote, blindly focused in on the bottom without reading the top:hehehe:). Truth, the sense that I've been using as synonymous with reality... is objectivity; innumerous impersonal processes. False(not that it doesn't manifest truly in another sense) being our self created concepts, the conditioned ways that we relate our selves to life, held substantively. How things affect us, why they affect us built on our experiences(shaping experiencer), conditioned by past thought/generations/standards/perceptual make up, continue to be conditioned with every seed sown(or deconditioned/conditioned with the seed of letting go/embracing.) What is real to me is without concept, all these words are attempts at containing something that can't be fully expressed in concept.

truth is what is true regardless of personal feelings/thoughts/opinion, what is liberating/freeing from personal confinements/standards

without personal feeling is true?;(true love, true equanimity, unconditional)love/self-love/compassion/self-compassion promotes healing/selflessness, healing/selflessness promotes freedom(from self-confinement) impersonally; experiences-no experiencer(no-conception), actions-no actor(no-conception)

without concrete concept, reality is alive not concept conforming, not able to be expressed or captured completely in word/idea, just experienced or understood/manifested from insight

speaking about our mental relation/formation here. not saying science isn't factual but obviously what we perceive is due to how we perceive


Edited by Sse (12/25/13 08:34 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icyus]
    #19328652 - 12/26/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
That is true, but in ways you cannot yet conscieve. (No offense offcourse)



If we can not confirm it to truth, then we can not add it to wisdom.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
    #19330456 - 12/26/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

afraid of what truth? lazy? both? I'm confused, can you elaborate?

The truth that life is not knowable ultimately so we will live in a certain amount of confusion until we die.

And too lazy to tackle the ramifications of that. That we have to make a best guess about everything and we do that by lots of exploring and mistake making and living with that kind of uncertainty also until we die.

Kratom helps with this as you well know. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #19331712 - 12/27/13 04:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
afraid of what truth? lazy? both? I'm confused, can you elaborate?

The truth that life is not knowable ultimately so we will live in a certain amount of confusion until we die.

And too lazy to tackle the ramifications of that. That we have to make a best guess about everything and we do that by lots of exploring and mistake making and living with that kind of uncertainty also until we die.





I reckon confusion can only come if we try to make the unknown known through force, if you accept that your life is ultimately the great unknown and stop thinking it to be otherwise then there isn't any confusion about anything, there's just whatever Is

I feel uncertainty, and of course being very comfortable with it, is a very powerful 'way' as it's so open ended

IMO it actually takes more effort to pretend we know then it does to deeply accept we are the unknown, so you can be lazy & still deal with the ramifications of the unknown
This is of course if one doesn't fear the unknown but learns to accept it, and maybe that's where the 'work' is, understanding that you are the unknown and  it's ok to be yourself, if we've spent years or lifetimes pretending we know what we are then maybe its hard to just accept we are actually unknown, i personally feel it takes more effort to keep pretending


--------------------


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
    #19333369 - 12/27/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

ah yes the ultimate truth. I think that ultimate truth is facilitated by seeing our other truths, like why we perceive the way we perceive, why/how our current state interprets its past and constructed present. They say when/as you let go/embrace/accept the heart will come to a place that doesn't question itself any longer.

indeed kratom has been an amazing tool for me... may still be lost if I didn't find kratom. Now I know deep down in my heart, no matter what life presents, I can endure.

"life is what you make it don't you ever fake it"

"the seed you sow is what will show"

"Neither giving nor taking
Neither for no against
Leave your mind at rest
With perceptions remain unconcerned
The great Way is a mind open to everything
which clings to nothing
which fixates nowhere
Radiant and stainless
Rest in the unmoved, uncreated and spontaneous
and you will soon reach Buddhahood."
-Tilopa, tenth-century yogi

"We live in illusion
And the appearance of things.
There is a reality.
We are that reality.
When you understand this,
You see that you are nothing.
And being nothing,
You are everything.
That is all."
-Kalu Rinpoche

"You are the Buddha. You are the truth. Then
why do you not feel it? Why don't you know
it through and through? Because there is a veil
in the way, which is attachment to appearances,
such as the belief that you are not Buddha,
that you are a separate individual, an ego. If
you cannot remove this veil all at once, then it
must be dissolved gradually.
  If you have seen through it totally, even
one glimpse, then you can see through it at
any time. Wherever you are, whatever presents
itself, however things seem to be; simply refer
to that ever-present, spacious openness and
clarity."
-Kalu Rinpoche


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19333393 - 12/27/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?



Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
When do they diverge?




When the thinker of the two thoughts ascribes different meaning to them, I can't make them diverge due to my definition (or lack thereof) of the terms

What I think matters is that you don't let these concepts diverge from yourself, wisdom is your nature, truth is your nature, if you allow these concepts to diverge from yourself & become phenomenal then you can say wisdom is this, truth is that... but if you keep them in your heart, as your very self, you can not say what they are, you can only be that

I can see how some people might prefer seeking wisdom over truth, as it implies more of a state of being rather than attaining some thing called truth, or wisdom could be taken as seeing things as they are rather than seeking some hidden thing called truth, but really they are one

What I find amusing is wisdom is not knowing anything, it's not a state of knowing, its a state of unknowing, openness, boundlessness, if it was a state of knowing it would be closed, with boundary, and that could not truly be called wise in my opinion




His words are my words
I dont like defining myself, I just am

Openness is important to me, truth is known as truth is our nature, wisdom is built in

the pursuit to be myself most of the time
while still learning new, acquiring new knowledge through my whole life

living the truth is very hard, I admire those that can do that all the time, it is not for humans ;-)  , can be much suffering
but I try my best to


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19334004 - 12/27/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mio said:
truth is known as truth is our nature, wisdom is built in






What do you mean by truth is known as truth is our nature?

What collective body is assumed in "our"?


Quote:

The Chronic said:

IMO it actually takes more effort to pretend we know then it does to deeply accept we are the unknown, so you can be lazy & still deal with the ramifications of the unknown
This is of course if one doesn't fear the unknown but learns to accept it, and maybe that's where the 'work' is, understanding that you are the unknown and  it's OK to be yourself, if we've spent years or lifetimes pretending we know what we are then maybe its hard to just accept we are actually unknown, i personally feel it takes more effort to keep pretending




Can you define "the unknown"? I don't "deeply accept" that I am "the unknown", because I've never considered that; and I don't understand what you mean at all. How did you know to do the "work" of "understanding that you are the unknown". What "work" did you do, and why did you do it?

What are the ramifications of "the unknown"? How should one deal with them? How do you deal with it?


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19334013 - 12/27/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I can define the unknown, but not voice it...


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7] * 1
    #19334033 - 12/27/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
afraid of what truth? lazy? both? I'm confused, can you elaborate?

The truth that life is not knowable ultimately so we will live in a certain amount of confusion until we die.

And too lazy to tackle the ramifications of that. That we have to make a best guess about everything and we do that by lots of exploring and mistake making and living with that kind of uncertainty also until we die.





I reckon confusion can only come if we try to make the unknown known through force, if you accept that your life is ultimately the great unknown and stop thinking it to be otherwise then there isn't any confusion about anything, there's just whatever Is

I feel uncertainty, and of course being very comfortable with it, is a very powerful 'way' as it's so open ended

IMO it actually takes more effort to pretend we know then it does to deeply accept we are the unknown, so you can be lazy & still deal with the ramifications of the unknown
This is of course if one doesn't fear the unknown but learns to accept it, and maybe that's where the 'work' is, understanding that you are the unknown and  it's ok to be yourself, if we've spent years or lifetimes pretending we know what we are then maybe its hard to just accept we are actually unknown, i personally feel it takes more effort to keep pretending





Well I'm glad to hear that being the lazy sot that I am. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #19334264 - 12/27/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Quote:

Icyus said:
That is true, but in ways you cannot yet conscieve. (No offense offcourse)



If we can not confirm it to truth, then we can not add it to wisdom.




I've seen many wise things done by people who don't even realize they are doing them. And I've seen many foolish things done by people who think what they are doing is brilliant.

In other words, I don't buy it. Many confirmations, especially those around a topic as nebulous as "wisdom" are biased in the extreme.


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19334276 - 12/27/13 07:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Unknown- the whittling away of concept leads to the extinction of concept(present moment abides naturally and unconstructed); with perception remains unconcern. What is known, is what is conceptualized, which is fueling our unconscious drives, needs, impulses, reactions. If we were to set our minds free from the created existence we experience, we would arrive at nirvana. True equanimity.

self is a process, everything we perceive is due to interdependent co-arising. The unknown is the perception of non-perception. It's what is there without influence by our personal feelings, concepts, opinions, bias. With perception remains unconcern, observe what arises and falls away without alteration or attachment by our egoic minds. Feeding the fires of mindfulness instead of feeding the fire of thought/judgment/unconscious patterns. All we have to do is embrace concept for what it is as it arises... see through the concept, see what gives it its fuel... see what gives it its interpretation... know that everything is impermanent, without an inherent conceptual self, all products of our and past generations creation... we are living in the shadow of their and our own creation and relation to our perceptions/multitude of experiences. Inherently, we are without conception, without this self-created way of relating.

"Like the sound of a drum, which arises from the interplay between the stick beating on drum skin held together by wood and brackets, it's all like echos and reflections. Everything is in process."

no concrete entity to be found. Everything is relative.

"Everything arises as if from emptiness and is resolved back into the unborn nature of emptiness."

"as we keep peeling and peeling, we begin the process of unmasking our personas. First we unmask the body, then the mind. Then we go deeper and unmask the psyche, continuously letting go and unmasking all the layers. We all have so many masks it's as though every day in our life has been Halloween. When we remove the masks, we are shedding our fantasies about ourselves, others, and the world. We can see and be seen. We know and are known. We are.

"Emptiness does not mean that you should deny yourself, abnegate yourself, or pretend that nobody's there. Simply put, this teaching is meant to help you empty yourself when you are too full of yourself. This is meant to help you look at yourself realistically and lighten up when your ego is taking itself too seriously. In this way we can dissolve our deluded view of ourselves and the universe, until we ultimately arrive at sunyata, emptiness, and the radiant, infinite openness of our original, unprocessed natural state, our genuine being. This is Buddha-nature, aware and empty of fantasy."

Awakening the Buddha Within by Lama Surya Das


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/27/13 08:42 PM)


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
    #19334348 - 12/27/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"buddha-nature aware and empty of fantasy"

observer of it all, nothing excepted, only fitting to life experience

no pursuit, it will all feel natural and happen when ready, no way of going back really
and there will be no doubt when seeing the truth


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OfflineSse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: lessismore]
    #19334464 - 12/27/13 08:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"Given that the arising and liberation of conceptual thoughts occur simultaneously,
How can one say that, by having applied this antidote[to conceptual thoughts] one was not effective?"

"[Abiding] in this immediate consciousness itself,
How can one say that one does not know this [reality]?

Tibetan book of the dead

known and unknowable(without concept)


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/27/13 08:49 PM)


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InvisibleTheShroomingAtheis
He's gone....


Registered: 12/31/11
Posts: 2,734
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
    #19334479 - 12/27/13 08:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Peace of mind more than anything :smile:


--------------------
You gotta face the music!


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
    #19334595 - 12/27/13 09:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Saw your TBOTD thread before, was like reading own thoughts ;-)

now I know why that LSD ticket had a buddhist symbol on it :wink:
havent had any problems since I took it a few years ago, and almost like constant meditation

peace everywhere, even in pain or rain

I dont miss anything, I dont need to pursue anything
but I do what I love


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Invisiblecez
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: lessismore]
    #19334603 - 12/27/13 09:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The pursuit of truth implies to me the ultimate, wheras the pursuit of wisdom seems more conventional.

Truth ftw!


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Posts: 970
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: lessismore]
    #19334607 - 12/27/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"peace everywhere, even in pain or rain"

Sounds like you don't have any personal need to make the world a better place. This sounds like an excellent slave mentality, or perhaps a poor consumer. This mentality serves the status quo, and abstracts the individual from making tangible progress towards a better life.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19335549 - 12/28/13 04:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roger Wilco said:

Quote:

The Chronic said:

IMO it actually takes more effort to pretend we know then it does to deeply accept we are the unknown, so you can be lazy & still deal with the ramifications of the unknown
This is of course if one doesn't fear the unknown but learns to accept it, and maybe that's where the 'work' is, understanding that you are the unknown and  it's OK to be yourself, if we've spent years or lifetimes pretending we know what we are then maybe its hard to just accept we are actually unknown, i personally feel it takes more effort to keep pretending




Can you define "the unknown"? I don't "deeply accept" that I am "the unknown", because I've never considered that; and I don't understand what you mean at all. How did you know to do the "work" of "understanding that you are the unknown". What "work" did you do, and why did you do it?

What are the ramifications of "the unknown"? How should one deal with them? How do you deal with it?




I can't define the unknown as by its nature it is the unknown, it is indefinability itself, yet i know i am that
Due to it being the unknown, indefinable, it is boundless, limitless, infinite

I find these are the ramifications, there is no dealing with it as you are it, there is no duality

The work, i find is being self-aware, this can be 'work' because we've got so many thoughts about what we are that pull our attention from being self-aware, i don't find much difficulty in it myself, as how hard is it to be aware of oneself? It's self-evidential & effortless, the confusion can be thinking of yourself as the known, as limited to this or that, when it is originally unknown & unlimited

Why do i do this? I do it out of a desire to be true to myself


--------------------


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OfflineSse
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Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: lessismore]
    #19342466 - 12/29/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yeeep I like that introduction to awareness, good stuff.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19343074 - 12/29/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:

I can't define the unknown as by its nature it is the unknown, it is indefinability itself, yet i know i am that
Due to it being the unknown, indefinable, it is boundless, limitless, infinite





I don't know anyone that refers to themselves that way, likely because I don't know what you are talking about.

It would be helpful to understand your ideas if you used words you could in fact define. The word unknown does have a definition. It is an adjective, not a noun. "The unknown" you present seems as if it is an actual thing, not an attribute to an actual thing. Because of your apparent usage of unknown as a noun, e.g "the unknown" I'm left to guess by myself what you are referring to.

Here is an example of how when used as an adjective, "unknown" can easily take definite meaning.

IE. "It was a red ford truck that caused the hit and run, but the licence plate number is unknown."

In my example the usage of the word unknown is definite, concrete and is self evident.

Your usage of "the unknown" is very abstract. I do not grasp what it is, or what it has to do with identity, or life at all.

It appears that "unknown and "the unknown" have very different meanings, and I do not grasp what you mean by "the unknown".

Quote:

The Chronic said:
I find these are the ramifications, there is no dealing with it as you are it, there is no duality





Do you think people either see themselves as "unknown" or "known"?? I perceive this as a false duality/dichotomy if that that you are supposing.


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OfflineSse
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Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19343558 - 12/29/13 09:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19344754 - 12/30/13 02:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roger Wilco said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:

I can't define the unknown as by its nature it is the unknown, it is indefinability itself, yet i know i am that
Due to it being the unknown, indefinable, it is boundless, limitless, infinite





I don't know anyone that refers to themselves that way, likely because I don't know what you are talking about.

It would be helpful to understand your ideas if you used words you could in fact define. The word unknown does have a definition. It is an adjective, not a noun. "The unknown" you present seems as if it is an actual thing, not an attribute to an actual thing. Because of your apparent usage of unknown as a noun, e.g "the unknown" I'm left to guess by myself what you are referring to.

Here is an example of how when used as an adjective, "unknown" can easily take definite meaning.

IE. "It was a red ford truck that caused the hit and run, but the licence plate number is unknown."

In my example the usage of the word unknown is definite, concrete and is self evident.

Your usage of "the unknown" is very abstract. I do not grasp what it is, or what it has to do with identity, or life at all.

It appears that "unknown and "the unknown" have very different meanings, and I do not grasp what you mean by "the unknown".





All i mean by 'the unknown' is that ultimately ourself, awareness, consciousness, or whatever that core of perception is within all of us, by its nature is not a tangible objective entity, therefore unknown, a living mystery

By investigating ones self, living in a state of unknowing/mystery, surrendering to the unknown, one can grasp the meaning of it, if one can even possibly do that

Quote:

Quote:

The Chronic said:
I find these are the ramifications, there is no dealing with it as you are it, there is no duality





Do you think people either see themselves as "unknown" or "known"?? I perceive this as a false duality/dichotomy if that that you are supposing




Most people think they are the known, their body, their thoughts, their likes/dislikes, their genes, etc... they believe these things comprise what they call a self, which seems useful in their daily lives, but after investigating myself i don't feel any of this can ultimately be a definition of the self, they are aspects/fragments of self expression for sure, but not the whole picture, the self/consciousness includes bodies, thoughts, etc... but is ultimately not shaped or defined by them

I see no reason to investigate such things unless a person is naturally inclined to do so, i felt inclined to investigate it because all those thoughts/feelings/likes/dislikes etc that we use to shape/define ourself in my case developed into a kind of claustrophobia that i needed to break free from, i found seeing oneself as 'the unknown' can help to undo those knots, if one is interested in such things


--------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
    #19375357 - 01/06/14 12:00 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I've always flashed on this page from BE HERE NOW when a question like yours came up. A philosopher is a 'lover of wisdom,' but the closest term I have come to 'love of truth' or 'love of beauty' is the Eastern Orthodox Christian writings called The Philokalia, which translates into both of those loves. The Philokalia, for those unfamiliar, are a collection of contemplative practices that still exist on the independent Greek island state of Mount Athos. Truth and Beauty are therefore, interchangeable in the title of the writings, and like the BE HERE NOW page, seem to point to a singular Reality. I have referred to myself as a philosopher at times, but never to a Hesychast, which is the eastern  Orthodox Christian who dedicates his life to the practices of The Philokalia. A woman has not set foot on Athos for over 1000 years, and even though J.D. Salinger wrote about the appropriation of one of their practices, the 'Jesus Prayer' or 'Prayer of the Heart' in his novel Franny and Zooey by a young woman, women do not seem to be considered spiritually fit for the practice according to the Hesychasts. I long ago rejected monasticism as my path, but monasticism with misogyny Really turns me off.

Consciousness equals
ENERGY=
LOVE=
AWARENESS=
LIGHT=
WISDOM=
BEAUTY=
TRUTH=
PURITY.
It's all the same trip. Its all the same. Any trip you want to take, leads to the same place.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19375861 - 01/06/14 05:18 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)





--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineabsols
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Registered: 11/10/13
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Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19375918 - 01/06/14 05:46 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

you see everything as the same because you mean your trip .. and don't care about anything and existence facts 

consciousness is definitely never an energy ... only being real is free energy from else beings

being conscious is zero energy for sure always, that is why it doesn't affect things and matters of life

also awareness is never conscious, conscious is to all realization where awareness is just nothing freedom so a free sense out of being, like for animals who are totally possessed as a thing being ..

light is about being fast move .. which is also totally else
being speedy is from being superior so starting by all ends so the line is straight absolutely right

all your other words are subjective .. they mean inferiority to me


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: absols]
    #19375930 - 01/06/14 05:57 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

First, these aren't my words, they are from the book Be Here Now by Ram Dass, which I happen to have on hand as an ebook.  It took me all of 20 seconds to upload and assist MarkostheGnostic's post, as perhaps someone who has never seen the book might find it interesting.

I made no claims on Reality whatsoever.

Secondly, everything you've said is utterly incoherent.  Get help for that.

:braindamage:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineabsols
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Posts: 986
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19375965 - 01/06/14 06:24 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

of course when you mean to use some words that point everything existence for nothing, inherently you cant understand what any other do..it must be far beyond you .. that is how you enjoy confusing everything as nothing to say

I don't need help to sound coherent for you.. It is clear to me and that what matters ..

what prevail between one and everyone according to you ?? or your readings?? one of course right ?? so one by being alone is far more objective then if he convince everyone .. then convincing you cant be in any schedule of any being..

and last, brain damaged yourself freakcos mic joker ! 


Edited by absols (01/06/14 06:30 AM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: absols]
    #19375973 - 01/06/14 06:29 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I gave at the office. :bye:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineabsols
Stranger

Registered: 11/10/13
Posts: 986
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19375992 - 01/06/14 06:38 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

:goodluck:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19394977 - 01/09/14 05:58 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:







That's the one! :smile:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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