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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icyus]
#19328652 - 12/26/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icyus said: That is true, but in ways you cannot yet conscieve. (No offense offcourse)
If we can not confirm it to truth, then we can not add it to wisdom.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
#19330456 - 12/26/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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afraid of what truth? lazy? both? I'm confused, can you elaborate?
The truth that life is not knowable ultimately so we will live in a certain amount of confusion until we die.
And too lazy to tackle the ramifications of that. That we have to make a best guess about everything and we do that by lots of exploring and mistake making and living with that kind of uncertainty also until we die.
Kratom helps with this as you well know.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander] 1
#19331712 - 12/27/13 04:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: afraid of what truth? lazy? both? I'm confused, can you elaborate?
The truth that life is not knowable ultimately so we will live in a certain amount of confusion until we die.
And too lazy to tackle the ramifications of that. That we have to make a best guess about everything and we do that by lots of exploring and mistake making and living with that kind of uncertainty also until we die.
I reckon confusion can only come if we try to make the unknown known through force, if you accept that your life is ultimately the great unknown and stop thinking it to be otherwise then there isn't any confusion about anything, there's just whatever Is
I feel uncertainty, and of course being very comfortable with it, is a very powerful 'way' as it's so open ended
IMO it actually takes more effort to pretend we know then it does to deeply accept we are the unknown, so you can be lazy & still deal with the ramifications of the unknown This is of course if one doesn't fear the unknown but learns to accept it, and maybe that's where the 'work' is, understanding that you are the unknown and it's ok to be yourself, if we've spent years or lifetimes pretending we know what we are then maybe its hard to just accept we are actually unknown, i personally feel it takes more effort to keep pretending
--------------------
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
#19333369 - 12/27/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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ah yes the ultimate truth. I think that ultimate truth is facilitated by seeing our other truths, like why we perceive the way we perceive, why/how our current state interprets its past and constructed present. They say when/as you let go/embrace/accept the heart will come to a place that doesn't question itself any longer.
indeed kratom has been an amazing tool for me... may still be lost if I didn't find kratom. Now I know deep down in my heart, no matter what life presents, I can endure.
"life is what you make it don't you ever fake it"
"the seed you sow is what will show"
"Neither giving nor taking Neither for no against Leave your mind at rest With perceptions remain unconcerned The great Way is a mind open to everything which clings to nothing which fixates nowhere Radiant and stainless Rest in the unmoved, uncreated and spontaneous and you will soon reach Buddhahood." -Tilopa, tenth-century yogi
"We live in illusion And the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, You see that you are nothing. And being nothing, You are everything. That is all." -Kalu Rinpoche
"You are the Buddha. You are the truth. Then why do you not feel it? Why don't you know it through and through? Because there is a veil in the way, which is attachment to appearances, such as the belief that you are not Buddha, that you are a separate individual, an ego. If you cannot remove this veil all at once, then it must be dissolved gradually. If you have seen through it totally, even one glimpse, then you can see through it at any time. Wherever you are, whatever presents itself, however things seem to be; simply refer to that ever-present, spacious openness and clarity." -Kalu Rinpoche
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
#19333393 - 12/27/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?
Quote:
The Chronic said:
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Deviate said: When do they diverge?
When the thinker of the two thoughts ascribes different meaning to them, I can't make them diverge due to my definition (or lack thereof) of the terms
What I think matters is that you don't let these concepts diverge from yourself, wisdom is your nature, truth is your nature, if you allow these concepts to diverge from yourself & become phenomenal then you can say wisdom is this, truth is that... but if you keep them in your heart, as your very self, you can not say what they are, you can only be that
I can see how some people might prefer seeking wisdom over truth, as it implies more of a state of being rather than attaining some thing called truth, or wisdom could be taken as seeing things as they are rather than seeking some hidden thing called truth, but really they are one
What I find amusing is wisdom is not knowing anything, it's not a state of knowing, its a state of unknowing, openness, boundlessness, if it was a state of knowing it would be closed, with boundary, and that could not truly be called wise in my opinion
His words are my words I dont like defining myself, I just am
Openness is important to me, truth is known as truth is our nature, wisdom is built in
the pursuit to be myself most of the time while still learning new, acquiring new knowledge through my whole life
living the truth is very hard, I admire those that can do that all the time, it is not for humans ;-) , can be much suffering but I try my best to
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Roger Wilco
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Registered: 06/08/13
Posts: 970
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
#19334004 - 12/27/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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mio said: truth is known as truth is our nature, wisdom is built in
What do you mean by truth is known as truth is our nature?
What collective body is assumed in "our"?
Quote:
The Chronic said:
IMO it actually takes more effort to pretend we know then it does to deeply accept we are the unknown, so you can be lazy & still deal with the ramifications of the unknown This is of course if one doesn't fear the unknown but learns to accept it, and maybe that's where the 'work' is, understanding that you are the unknown and it's OK to be yourself, if we've spent years or lifetimes pretending we know what we are then maybe its hard to just accept we are actually unknown, i personally feel it takes more effort to keep pretending
Can you define "the unknown"? I don't "deeply accept" that I am "the unknown", because I've never considered that; and I don't understand what you mean at all. How did you know to do the "work" of "understanding that you are the unknown". What "work" did you do, and why did you do it?
What are the ramifications of "the unknown"? How should one deal with them? How do you deal with it?
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Icyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa



Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19334013 - 12/27/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I can define the unknown, but not voice it...
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7] 1
#19334033 - 12/27/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
Icelander said: afraid of what truth? lazy? both? I'm confused, can you elaborate?
The truth that life is not knowable ultimately so we will live in a certain amount of confusion until we die.
And too lazy to tackle the ramifications of that. That we have to make a best guess about everything and we do that by lots of exploring and mistake making and living with that kind of uncertainty also until we die.
I reckon confusion can only come if we try to make the unknown known through force, if you accept that your life is ultimately the great unknown and stop thinking it to be otherwise then there isn't any confusion about anything, there's just whatever Is
I feel uncertainty, and of course being very comfortable with it, is a very powerful 'way' as it's so open ended
IMO it actually takes more effort to pretend we know then it does to deeply accept we are the unknown, so you can be lazy & still deal with the ramifications of the unknown This is of course if one doesn't fear the unknown but learns to accept it, and maybe that's where the 'work' is, understanding that you are the unknown and it's ok to be yourself, if we've spent years or lifetimes pretending we know what we are then maybe its hard to just accept we are actually unknown, i personally feel it takes more effort to keep pretending
Well I'm glad to hear that being the lazy sot that I am.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#19334264 - 12/27/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Quote:
Icyus said: That is true, but in ways you cannot yet conscieve. (No offense offcourse)
If we can not confirm it to truth, then we can not add it to wisdom.
I've seen many wise things done by people who don't even realize they are doing them. And I've seen many foolish things done by people who think what they are doing is brilliant.
In other words, I don't buy it. Many confirmations, especially those around a topic as nebulous as "wisdom" are biased in the extreme.
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19334276 - 12/27/13 07:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Unknown- the whittling away of concept leads to the extinction of concept(present moment abides naturally and unconstructed); with perception remains unconcern. What is known, is what is conceptualized, which is fueling our unconscious drives, needs, impulses, reactions. If we were to set our minds free from the created existence we experience, we would arrive at nirvana. True equanimity.
self is a process, everything we perceive is due to interdependent co-arising. The unknown is the perception of non-perception. It's what is there without influence by our personal feelings, concepts, opinions, bias. With perception remains unconcern, observe what arises and falls away without alteration or attachment by our egoic minds. Feeding the fires of mindfulness instead of feeding the fire of thought/judgment/unconscious patterns. All we have to do is embrace concept for what it is as it arises... see through the concept, see what gives it its fuel... see what gives it its interpretation... know that everything is impermanent, without an inherent conceptual self, all products of our and past generations creation... we are living in the shadow of their and our own creation and relation to our perceptions/multitude of experiences. Inherently, we are without conception, without this self-created way of relating.
"Like the sound of a drum, which arises from the interplay between the stick beating on drum skin held together by wood and brackets, it's all like echos and reflections. Everything is in process."
no concrete entity to be found. Everything is relative.
"Everything arises as if from emptiness and is resolved back into the unborn nature of emptiness."
"as we keep peeling and peeling, we begin the process of unmasking our personas. First we unmask the body, then the mind. Then we go deeper and unmask the psyche, continuously letting go and unmasking all the layers. We all have so many masks it's as though every day in our life has been Halloween. When we remove the masks, we are shedding our fantasies about ourselves, others, and the world. We can see and be seen. We know and are known. We are.
"Emptiness does not mean that you should deny yourself, abnegate yourself, or pretend that nobody's there. Simply put, this teaching is meant to help you empty yourself when you are too full of yourself. This is meant to help you look at yourself realistically and lighten up when your ego is taking itself too seriously. In this way we can dissolve our deluded view of ourselves and the universe, until we ultimately arrive at sunyata, emptiness, and the radiant, infinite openness of our original, unprocessed natural state, our genuine being. This is Buddha-nature, aware and empty of fantasy."
Awakening the Buddha Within by Lama Surya Das
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (12/27/13 08:42 PM)
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
#19334348 - 12/27/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"buddha-nature aware and empty of fantasy"
observer of it all, nothing excepted, only fitting to life experience
no pursuit, it will all feel natural and happen when ready, no way of going back really and there will be no doubt when seeing the truth
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: lessismore]
#19334464 - 12/27/13 08:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Given that the arising and liberation of conceptual thoughts occur simultaneously, How can one say that, by having applied this antidote[to conceptual thoughts] one was not effective?"
"[Abiding] in this immediate consciousness itself, How can one say that one does not know this [reality]?
Tibetan book of the dead
known and unknowable(without concept)
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (12/27/13 08:49 PM)
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TheShroomingAtheis
He's gone....


Registered: 12/31/11
Posts: 2,734
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
#19334479 - 12/27/13 08:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Peace of mind more than anything
-------------------- You gotta face the music!
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
#19334595 - 12/27/13 09:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Saw your TBOTD thread before, was like reading own thoughts ;-)
now I know why that LSD ticket had a buddhist symbol on it  havent had any problems since I took it a few years ago, and almost like constant meditation
peace everywhere, even in pain or rain
I dont miss anything, I dont need to pursue anything but I do what I love
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: lessismore]
#19334603 - 12/27/13 09:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The pursuit of truth implies to me the ultimate, wheras the pursuit of wisdom seems more conventional.
Truth ftw!
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Roger Wilco
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Registered: 06/08/13
Posts: 970
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: lessismore]
#19334607 - 12/27/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"peace everywhere, even in pain or rain"
Sounds like you don't have any personal need to make the world a better place. This sounds like an excellent slave mentality, or perhaps a poor consumer. This mentality serves the status quo, and abstracts the individual from making tangible progress towards a better life.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19335549 - 12/28/13 04:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Roger Wilco said:
Quote:
The Chronic said:
IMO it actually takes more effort to pretend we know then it does to deeply accept we are the unknown, so you can be lazy & still deal with the ramifications of the unknown This is of course if one doesn't fear the unknown but learns to accept it, and maybe that's where the 'work' is, understanding that you are the unknown and it's OK to be yourself, if we've spent years or lifetimes pretending we know what we are then maybe its hard to just accept we are actually unknown, i personally feel it takes more effort to keep pretending
Can you define "the unknown"? I don't "deeply accept" that I am "the unknown", because I've never considered that; and I don't understand what you mean at all. How did you know to do the "work" of "understanding that you are the unknown". What "work" did you do, and why did you do it?
What are the ramifications of "the unknown"? How should one deal with them? How do you deal with it?
I can't define the unknown as by its nature it is the unknown, it is indefinability itself, yet i know i am that Due to it being the unknown, indefinable, it is boundless, limitless, infinite
I find these are the ramifications, there is no dealing with it as you are it, there is no duality
The work, i find is being self-aware, this can be 'work' because we've got so many thoughts about what we are that pull our attention from being self-aware, i don't find much difficulty in it myself, as how hard is it to be aware of oneself? It's self-evidential & effortless, the confusion can be thinking of yourself as the known, as limited to this or that, when it is originally unknown & unlimited
Why do i do this? I do it out of a desire to be true to myself
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: lessismore]
#19342466 - 12/29/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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yeeep I like that introduction to awareness, good stuff.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Roger Wilco
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Registered: 06/08/13
Posts: 970
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
#19343074 - 12/29/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
I can't define the unknown as by its nature it is the unknown, it is indefinability itself, yet i know i am that Due to it being the unknown, indefinable, it is boundless, limitless, infinite
I don't know anyone that refers to themselves that way, likely because I don't know what you are talking about.
It would be helpful to understand your ideas if you used words you could in fact define. The word unknown does have a definition. It is an adjective, not a noun. "The unknown" you present seems as if it is an actual thing, not an attribute to an actual thing. Because of your apparent usage of unknown as a noun, e.g "the unknown" I'm left to guess by myself what you are referring to.
Here is an example of how when used as an adjective, "unknown" can easily take definite meaning.
IE. "It was a red ford truck that caused the hit and run, but the licence plate number is unknown."
In my example the usage of the word unknown is definite, concrete and is self evident.
Your usage of "the unknown" is very abstract. I do not grasp what it is, or what it has to do with identity, or life at all.
It appears that "unknown and "the unknown" have very different meanings, and I do not grasp what you mean by "the unknown".
Quote:
The Chronic said: I find these are the ramifications, there is no dealing with it as you are it, there is no duality
Do you think people either see themselves as "unknown" or "known"?? I perceive this as a false duality/dichotomy if that that you are supposing.
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19343558 - 12/29/13 09:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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