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Tycoda
Stranger

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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
#19321767 - 12/24/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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From my knowledge, wisdom is something that gives us the ability to see the truth, and it is not pursued directly because increasing the awareness of the truth naturally increases the wisdom that is available to us.
There is a line of prayer created by one of the old world prophets, Henoch, that allows us to communicate with our material consciousness, and which explains this phenomenon somewhat (albeit it is the simplest form of prayer to our material consciousness that exists on Earth). Nevertheless, the fifth line in the prayer goes:
Mein tägliches Brot gib mir heute, so ich erkenne meine Schuld und ich erkenne die Wahrheit.
In English, this is translated as:
Give me my daily bread (love and wisdom), so I recognize my responsibility and I recognize the truth.
The translation is not exact, but when I activate it, then the love and wisdom are a source of energy and guidance which make it possible to see the truth. Yet i do not seek the wisdom itself because, rather, the wisdom finds me and therefore guides me to finding the truth as i live and breathe with the love and the wisdom.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19323778 - 12/24/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Roger Wilco said:
Quote:
The Chronic said: What I think matters is that you don't let these concepts diverge from yourself, wisdom is your nature, truth is your nature, if you allow these concepts to diverge from yourself & become phenomenal then you can say wisdom is this, truth is that...
This is bullshit. You can't just know truth in your heart. People deceive themselves all the time. To know truth takes work, time effort attention scrutiny skepticism. A lot of reality is counter intuitive, and requires revealing.
Truth is an attribute of information. Without something to be true or false, truth is intangible, and doesnt make sense. one does not find general truth, one finds varioustruths embedded within one another.Each moment and situation deserves the same skeptical attention, scrutiny
To obtain truth, use attention, scrutiny, and skepticism to navigate and examine reality.
To obtain wisdom, one must excercise their will, and participate in experience. Live a lot. As you experience life, you become wiser. Wisdom is not a general attribute; you do not become wise in aspects of reality that you do not engage with.
My only point there is if truth or reality or wisdom exist, they can not exist apart from you
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Roger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
#19323918 - 12/25/13 12:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am going to die one day and gravity will not cease to exist. I don't understand what you are saying. How does truth only exist within people?
Truth is a concept, a human word used to describe reality, but when used in conversation by real people, it can refer to tangible reality. Actual things have actual attributes, and those things don't need you or I for them to exist.
This is not a dream. This is not a ride. You are not flotsam and jetsam.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19323923 - 12/25/13 12:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Roger Wilco said: You are not flotsam and jetsam.
Says who?

-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Roger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
#19323938 - 12/25/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said: My only point there is if truth or reality or wisdom exist, they can not exist apart from you
You exist within reality, not the other way around. Reality was here before you got here.
Truth is objective, but we have subjective nature to our perception; However this does not negate truth, it just demands attention, forces us to use scrutiny(respect), and is eased along with skepticism, critical thought and discernment.
Wisdom cannot exist apart from you I agree.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19323973 - 12/25/13 12:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Roger Wilco said: I am going to die one day and gravity will not cease to exist. I don't understand what you are saying. How does truth only exist within people?
Truth is a concept, a human word used to describe reality, but when used in conversation by real people, it can refer to tangible reality. Actual things have actual attributes, and those things don't need you or I for them to exist.
This is not a dream. This is not a ride. You are not flotsam and jetsam.
If you accept what you objectively see as true, that's somewhat logical & fine by me, i wouldn't want to preach otherwise
Some people intuitively feel there is more than what they see & can't help but search for it, to such a one i would say that what they seek can not be apart from them, because when i really understood that i found overwhelming peace
Quote:
I am going to die one day and gravity will not cease to exist. Truth is a concept, a human word used to describe reality, but when used in conversation by real people, it can refer to tangible reality. Actual things have actual attributes, and those things don't need you or I for them to exist. This is not a dream. This is not a ride. You are not flotsam and jetsam.
All of this implies belief
Whatever truth is, it does not require our belief in it, it Is
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19323978 - 12/25/13 01:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Roger Wilco said:
Quote:
The Chronic said: My only point there is if truth or reality or wisdom exist, they can not exist apart from you
You exist within reality, not the other way around. Reality was here before you got here.
I'm just going a step further and saying whatever reality is, you are it You don't exist within it, you exist as it
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
#19323984 - 12/25/13 01:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Merry Christmas by the way!
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Roger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
#19324039 - 12/25/13 01:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said: I'm just going a step further and saying whatever reality is, you are it You don't exist within it, you exist as it
A step further than what? You are not reality, you are a part of reality. You don't exist as it, you exist in it.
You are making claims that don't follow the experience of life here in the physical world.
Quote:
The Chronic said:
All of this implies belief
What beliefs are implicated by what I'm saying?
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19324116 - 12/25/13 01:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Roger Wilco said:
Quote:
The Chronic said: I'm just going a step further and saying whatever reality is, you are it You don't exist within it, you exist as it
A step further than what? You are not reality, you are a part of reality. You don't exist as it, you exist in it.
You are making claims that don't follow the experience of life here in the physical world.
I agree, i find reality or truth is not of the physical world
Quote:
Quote:
The Chronic said:
All of this implies belief
What beliefs are implicated by what I'm saying?
Quote:
I am going to die one day and gravity will not cease to exist. Truth is a concept, a human word used to describe reality, but when used in conversation by real people, it can refer to tangible reality. Actual things have actual attributes, and those things don't need you or I for them to exist. This is not a dream. This is not a ride. You are not flotsam and jetsam.
Every one of those sentences is a belief
Let agree to disagree, i am not going to believe in the way you see things and i don't require you to believe in the way i see things
All i will say is whatever is Real & True does not require belief
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Roger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
#19324160 - 12/25/13 02:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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We are in dissagreement. But I don't concede to shut up yet.
I want to understand your viewpoint, I want to have it elucidated. To me it's nonsense. You wipe your ass, you get hungry, you are flesh and blood you are of the physical world. You can't make up truth. You measure it.
I know I will die. That statement is not an opinion. Are you saying you don't know if death is real? Get your shit together man, the clock is ticking, you have time to focus your energies and have a meaningfull, enjoyable life.
It would be prudant to actual show how my statements are opinions, and not factual, as opposed to just stating so.
The facts are :I will Die, Gravity will exist after my death, You bleed. You hunger. Your real fingers had to touch real keys to get this conversation going. These are not beliefs or opinions, and if they are demonstrate it to me, show me. Prove it. Back it up.
Your head has these things on it; Eyes, and some various little holes in it to. All these things on your head are for taking in information, data on the physical world. You are optimized for the real world and you will work well in it if you respect it by paying attention to it. What is reality and truth if it is not of the physical world? Please help me understand.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19324306 - 12/25/13 03:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I simply don't believe that appearance denotes reality, no matter how persistent or obvious anything seems, it is an appearance, to say more about it implies a belief in my opinion We can describe the way the appearance behaves and call it a fact, but even facts can change according to our knowledge
For a moment, instead of paying attention to appearances, including appearances like thoughts or feelings in your body, without assuming anything, if you zoom in & look at your very sense of self, what do you find?
When i look for myself i don't find anything tangible, i find a self-evident presence that can't be objectified no matter how hard i try to see it, it's total intangibility, yet it IS! I Am, yet i can not find a definition of what I Am! I shan't describe what this feels like, find out for yourself if it piques your interest, you have a sense of self & you obviously have the faculty to question things
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
#19324328 - 12/25/13 03:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So i think i can boil it down to this:
You, the one to whom all objective tangible appearances appear, itself is intangible & not an object
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Roger Wilco
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
#19324369 - 12/25/13 04:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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My sense of self is dependent upon set and setting. It's different when I'm running full tilt playing soccer, to when I'm laying alone, to when im attentively looking for mushrooms in the forest....etc. It is never the same. My sense of self is created by my activity and experience and it is enriched by my health diet sleep and knowledge.
You don't need a complete definition of what you are. This doesn't make sense. Language is just a tool, a technology, All words are concepts; do not get trapped by them. Go integrate yourself with the physical world, from which you have spawned and you will find tangibility within yourself
Yes life is mysterious, but within that mystery there is endless opportunities for experience in what is knowable. The unknowable has more truths that are yet to be uncovered, and many never to be uncovered.
So what?
There is much that is knowable, measurable, and that is what we call the real world, or the physical world. Don't deny the knowable just because the unknowable exists.
Appearance does not denote reality,because sometimes reality is counter intuitive, and does not always act in conformed ways. But if you study it, you can know it more and more until you die.
The internet is proof. People really studied a lot of shit and put it together, and this shit really works.
Farming is real too. It's real because people took the time to figure it out, and now we both get to be alive because there is food around.
I think it would be great if more people took the time to examine and enjoy the physical world, and not get caught in self oppressing pseudo spiritual notions that negates their mind, and body. If more people did this the near future would have more great things like, medicine, agriculture, the internet, etc.
I don't advocate materialism, I advocate attention. Do not make logical assessments that impress idealism and rationality upon what you are seeing. Use your eyes and your ears and your nose and your voice to inform your ideas, rationale and world view.
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
#19325177 - 12/25/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Agree. It seems fairly often that people who say they know the truth in their heart are just lazy or too afraid of truth. Often both. "
afraid of what truth? lazy? both? I'm confused, can you elaborate?
what truth do you think is known? that life is difficult due to attachment? that liberation from difficulty exists? Compassion, you are also your perceptions(not apart from you), being kind compassionate and overstanding are as much self relieving as helpful to others, win win situation imo. Letting go itself seems virtuous to me, effective power of self benefit. Wisdom, we have the ability to change our lives, be happier, endure longer, patient, self-compassion. Ignorance of that conditions our mental formations and our dissatisfaction. Constant sustained taking back the reigns of thought pattern... freeing conceptualization and opening our minds to reality. All of our problematic problems and perceptions don't have to be problematic... staying virtuous with yourself and being compassionate with yourself relieves this, because we do have the power. It may be lazier just to psych yourself in the other direction... the mind can be quite secure/insecure/susceptible ruling in its conditioned fashion... it does take effort to turn that around.... for me it has been miraculous... simple and true to the bone... resting in the uncreated, nonjudgmental brings peace, lasting peace. It brings endurance through all of lifes pitfalls... I wouldn't trade it for all the gold in the world.
"On a very subtle, but no less real level, every time you see yourself on one side of the fence, with someone else on the other, you're being tripped up by the challenge of ill will. If you empathize with them-try to see through their eyes-you might miraculously find yourself on the same side. Ill will, left on its own, can easily escalate into mean-spiritedness, anger, or rage, sometimes without our even knowing that the escalation is taking place." -Lama Surya Das
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (12/25/13 03:23 PM)
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19325256 - 12/25/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"The original source text says, "consider how all phenomena are like dreams, and examine the nature of unborn awareness." Things are not what they seem to be; don't be deceived by appearances. The alchemical secret embodied in Buddhism is that nothing is absolutely real; everything is ephemeral, ungovernable, and hollow. Everything is relative and depends upon the mind and its projections and interpretation. How we relate to things makes all the difference. This does not mean that everything exists solely in the mind, as some idealists would have it. It does not mean that nothing matters at all, as nihilists suggest. Nor does it mean that all things are merely projections of mind-for one might just as well then posit that the mind is a projection of all things."
"What it means is that everything is impermanent, interdependent, as malleable as soft plastic. Reality is not fixed. Alter the global situation, atmosphere, or temperature, and all local events are affected. Transform any aspect or part of the universal mandala, the cosmic hologram, and all aspects are affected. Presence of mind, or innate awareness, is the pivot upon which all things turn. The genuine master of mindfulness, who stands nowhere, assumes no position or stance and fits in anywhere-he or she can move the universe. The lever of awareness is in his or her hand, and the fulcrum is nowhere else but the present moment." -Lama Surya Das
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
#19325279 - 12/25/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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no need to push away in order to see through
"Because all of us consistently desire, hunger, and thirst for various experiences and different things, we continue to suffer. It's not that we have to get rid of the things we desire. The objects are not the problem. It is our attachment and our identification with what we crave that causes suffering."
Tilopa, a wandering tenth-century yogi, sang, "It is not the outer objects that entangle us. It is the inner clinging that entangles us."
"People who misinterpret the Buddha's teachings often worry that if they rid themselves of craving, they will no longer be able to love or live with passion. Quite the opposite is true. We will still have our healthy desires, but now they wont be contaminated and misdirected by insatiable craving. The Buddha never taught that we shouldn't feel love. In fact, he preached universal love and compassion. One entire sutra spoken by Buddha teaches how we can learn to love, to cultivate loving-kindness, empathy, and inclusiveness. What the Buddha taught is that we shouldn't try to own each other, nor should we become so identified or attached to anything(person, thought, feeling, career, goal, or material object) that we lose sight of reality-of the relativism and changing nature of all that is."
"There is a one-word antidote to thirst or craving: wisdom. The wisdom of freedom from craving. The secret teachings of Tibet tell us that we can rediscover our innate wisdom, awareness, and inner joy through spiritual practices, including meditation, self-inquiry, prayer, and the cultivation of our naturally warm, tender, loving heart. Wisdom is the means to transcend craving and transform a treadmill existence into a loving inspiring garden walk. This is true freedom.
"Speaking to his disciples, the Buddha said, "whoever in this world overcomes this craving so hard to transcend will find that suffering falls away like drops of water falling from a flower." -lama surya das
hinderance falls away... what else keeps us from experiencing love(true equanimity)/joy/healing in every single moment?
"Then, and now, the hindrances, or challenges, all have the power to distort the seeker's view of reality."
"How do you know that you are confronting a classic "hindrance" on your spiritual path? just ask yourself: Am I losing my sense of balance, my sense of priorities, and my sense of what's really important? Am I being carried away by temporary reactions, by destructive emotions? that's what challenges do; they obstruct your insight and prevent you from seeing things as they really are. They stand between you and the calm clear awareness of the enlightened mind. The Buddha listed five primary challenges:
craving ill will sloth and torpor(spiritual laziness) restlessness doubt
"A spiritual journey inevitably includes low valleys as well as high mountains, dense forests as well as seemingly barren deserts, plateaus, and plains. This is the landscape and territory of your own being. It is all-revealing and it all needs exploration. Everything you experience along the way can be a way of helping you awaken the Buddha within."
"As you journey, obstacles will attempt you get in your way-for you are in your own way. Recognize the ways that difficulties and challenges are born from your own hang-ups, obscurations, fears and karma. Whether the path on which you find yourself is momentarily steep or level; rough, smooth, or slippery; turbulent or calm, you will prove to be your own greatest asset, as well as your greatest stumbling block. How will you help yourself, and how will you hinder yourself? which habits and patterns will you let go of easily, and which will have the tenacity of superglue? Are we desperate enough to really undergo total change and transformation?"
-Lama Surya Das
Edited by Sse (12/25/13 02:56 PM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
#19325711 - 12/25/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There is no wisdom without truth.
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Icyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa



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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#19325724 - 12/25/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That is true, but in ways you cannot yet conscieve. (No offense offcourse)
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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Sse
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icelander]
#19326207 - 12/25/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think I may see what you are saying(edit: when I responded to you above questioning your statement, I didn't see the above part of your quote, blindly focused in on the bottom without reading the top ). Truth, the sense that I've been using as synonymous with reality... is objectivity; innumerous impersonal processes. False(not that it doesn't manifest truly in another sense) being our self created concepts, the conditioned ways that we relate our selves to life, held substantively. How things affect us, why they affect us built on our experiences(shaping experiencer), conditioned by past thought/generations/standards/perceptual make up, continue to be conditioned with every seed sown(or deconditioned/conditioned with the seed of letting go/embracing.) What is real to me is without concept, all these words are attempts at containing something that can't be fully expressed in concept.
truth is what is true regardless of personal feelings/thoughts/opinion, what is liberating/freeing from personal confinements/standards
without personal feeling is true?;(true love, true equanimity, unconditional)love/self-love/compassion/self-compassion promotes healing/selflessness, healing/selflessness promotes freedom(from self-confinement) impersonally; experiences-no experiencer(no-conception), actions-no actor(no-conception)
without concrete concept, reality is alive not concept conforming, not able to be expressed or captured completely in word/idea, just experienced or understood/manifested from insight
speaking about our mental relation/formation here. not saying science isn't factual but obviously what we perceive is due to how we perceive
Edited by Sse (12/25/13 08:34 PM)
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