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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
    #19315835 - 12/23/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

interbeing

devoted to your dream reach out and grab it
promoted by the clean real life habit


all in the one, one in the all


everything effects me, and everything I do effects all

sickness is reality... the more wholesome, the less sickness, sickness isn't truthfully anything but what it is without connotation... wholesome no connotation. Wholesome brings benefit to the one and to the all in many realistic ways(though I guess in truth, what does life or death matter, sickness or a thriving system, in truth the repercussions/benefits are without connotation...So actualizing truth is wisdom, if wisdom means developing a mind that dwells happily in what is, as is, without obscuration. Perhaps actualizing truth is the wisest course of action. Become truth, unitary vision without obscuration... dwelling happily/contently in what is; the rest will follow/spread/cultivate from the presence of truth itself; the ripples will expound

perhaps the reason truth/reality actualized is full of so much bliss/peace/happiness/contentment(defiling I know) is because of the contrast to the delusion/human creativity that had been experienced and actualized. So without personal feeling or opinions, dwelling in what is, as it is, uncreated, unknown, without concrete conception, radiates impersonally in such a way.

without personal feeling is true?;(true love, true equanimity)love/self-love/compassion/self-compassion promotes healing/selflessness, healing/selflessness promotes freedom impersonally; experiences-no experiencer(no-conception), actions-no actor(no-conception)

though in the grand scheme it obviously was birthed from personal feeling/opinions. Can't have one without the ooooother.


Edited by Sse (12/25/13 02:34 PM)


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Icyus]
    #19316229 - 12/23/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Frustration is implicit in any attempt to express the deepest self" (Patricia Hampl).

Rely on the dharma, not the teacher.
Rely on the meaning, not the words.
Rely on explicit meanings, not implicit meanings.
Rely on wisdom, not on consciousness.

or

Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality;
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words;
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one;
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgmental mind.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/23/13 02:17 PM)


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Deviate]
    #19316546 - 12/23/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
When do they diverge?




They may not for everyone but the way I see it truth is most often a cultural idea more than anything. Whether that be scientific facts as truth and so pursue science in search of the truth, or the Biblical word as truth and so study the Bible for truth, what have you. I see these as attempts to get to the heart of existence.

Wisdom I think is the same with one major difference. Wisdom eventually splits from the truth because a wise man acknowledges that there is no containing/finding the truth. No way to capture it. And so if one pursues wisdom, eventually they have to let go of the pursuit of truth as it is seen to be a futile effort. That there is no heart of existence to get to.

The only thing pursuing the heart of existence does is put the heart at a distance, as something to get to. And pursuing wisdom allows one to let go of that distance. This is all my opinion of course.


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OfflineIcyus
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Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
    #19317029 - 12/23/13 04:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

My opinion then..purpleeye.. you are wise indeed.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
    #19317085 - 12/23/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"The development of wisdom is greatly facilitated by seeing our little hypocrisies and large illusions and learning to be more forthright and honest with ourselves and others.

Wisdom is higher consciousness, wakefulness, and awareness. Wisdom is self-knowledge: Wisdom is truth manifested as clarity of vision. Wisdom sees that light and dark are inseparable and that shadows are also light."

Awakening the Buddha Within by Lama Surya Das


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Kickle]
    #19319033 - 12/23/13 11:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?




Neither.  I choose the pursuit of happiness.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: deCypher]
    #19319163 - 12/23/13 11:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"nothing is sufficient" - propagandha


also, I left out above where I said above(complete text):

"wisdom is seeing the true nature of things-exactly as described in the Four Noble Truths, or the Four Facts of Life according to enlightened vision. Wisdom is higher consciousness, wakefulness, awareness. Wisdom is self-knowledge: wisdom is truth manifested as clarity of vision. Wisdom sees that light and dark are inseparable and the shadows are also light."

he gives a brief summary of the four noble truths earlier in the book(then he goes on to explain more.) Here's the summary:

The first noble truth: Life is difficult.

The second noble truth: Life is difficult because of attachment, because we crave satisfaction in ways that are inherently dissatisfying.

The third noble truth: The possibility of liberation from difficulties exists for everyone.

The fourth noble truth: the way to realize this liberation and enlightenment is by leading a compassionate life of virtue, wisdom, and meditation. These three spiritual trainings comprise the teachings of the Eight-Fold path to enlightenment.


I like it without also :sun:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/23/13 11:51 PM)


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: deCypher]
    #19319616 - 12/24/13 03:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
When do they diverge?




They may not for everyone but the way I see it truth is most often a cultural idea more than anything. Whether that be scientific facts as truth and so pursue science in search of the truth, or the Biblical word as truth and so study the Bible for truth, what have you. I see these as attempts to get to the heart of existence.

Wisdom I think is the same with one major difference. Wisdom eventually splits from the truth because a wise man acknowledges that there is no containing/finding the truth. No way to capture it. And so if one pursues wisdom, eventually they have to let go of the pursuit of truth as it is seen to be a futile effort. That there is no heart of existence to get to.

The only thing pursuing the heart of existence does is put the heart at a distance, as something to get to. And pursuing wisdom allows one to let go of that distance. This is all my opinion of course.




Nice, recently I tend to think its fine to seek anything you wish whether it be truth or whatever as long you include the wisdom that what you are seeking is not separate from yourself, it makes it less of a desperate seeking and more of a constant finding

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?




Neither.  I choose the pursuit of happiness.




I don't feel happiness is different from wisdom or truth, I certainly find no lasting happiness in doing ignorant things


--------------------


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
    #19320580 - 12/24/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

rest in the beneficial, life is beautiful

compassion is self-compassion


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/24/13 11:31 AM)


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InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19320599 - 12/24/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?




Neither.  I choose the pursuit of happiness.




I don't feel happiness is different from wisdom or truth, I certainly find no lasting happiness in doing ignorant things




Perhaps not, but sometimes I feel like it's the examined life that isn't worth living, contrary to what Socrates espoused.  Sometimes knowing too much can be hazardous for your sanity, let alone your blissful ignorance.

Take for example someone who believes that when they die they'll go to Heaven.  Upon further inspection, reading and learning, they come to the (arguably) more intelligent conclusion that they don't know that for sure--it's possible, or even likely, that this life is all they get--that's that, nothing more.  Something tells me most people won't be happier after having arrived at this realization.  Same goes for knowledge of a lot of our shields against death anxiety, not just religion: culture itself or even some of the building blocks that make up our personality were erected by our minds explicitly so as to avoid facing the ugly truths out there.

It ain't all puppies and roses out there in the real world.  Sometimes ignorance really can be bliss.  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: deCypher]
    #19320620 - 12/24/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

its true many people find solace in hiding truth from themselves but the ones I know at least are very susceptible to emotional outbreaks... makes me think self-deception isn't the lasting bliss but they are still content to not be forthright or to see particularly harsh truths realistically

like the dog that blames the dirt clod for it hitting him in the head, when the human threw it.

the dirt clod is our dissatisfaction, blaming outside/else for internal difficulties, when the seed is ours sown and coddled.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/24/13 11:22 AM)


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
Rusted Identifier

Registered: 06/08/13
Posts: 970
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19321132 - 12/24/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
What I think matters is that you don't let these concepts diverge from yourself, wisdom is your nature, truth is your nature, if you allow these concepts to diverge from yourself & become phenomenal then you can say wisdom is this, truth is that...




This is bullshit. You can't just know truth in your heart. People deceive themselves all the time. To know truth takes work, time effort attention scrutiny skepticism. A lot of reality is counter intuitive, and requires revealing.

Truth is an attribute of information. Without something to be true or false, truth is intangible, and doesnt make sense. one does not find general truth, one finds varioustruths embedded within one another.Each moment and situation deserves the same skeptical attention, scrutiny

To obtain truth, use attention, scrutiny, and skepticism to navigate and examine reality.

To obtain wisdom, one must excercise their will, and participate in experience. Live a lot. As you experience life, you become wiser. Wisdom is not a general attribute; you do not become wise in aspects of reality that you do not engage with.


Quote:

Sse said:
The first noble truth: Life is difficult.

The second noble truth: Life is difficult because of attachment, because we crave satisfaction in ways that are inherently dissatisfying.

The third noble truth: The possibility of liberation from difficulties exists for everyone.

The fourth noble truth: the way to realize this liberation and enlightenment is by leading a compassionate life of virtue, wisdom, and meditation. These three spiritual trainings comprise the teachings of the Eight-Fold path to enlightenment.





This is all neither noble, or does any of it necessitate truth. This is pseudeo spiritual intellectually drivel. You can't just simplify people down to four rules that are neither universal, or rules at all.


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OfflineKetakitty
behold the violet flame
Male


Registered: 06/24/13
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Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19321178 - 12/24/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

pursuit of truth is pursuit of wisdom.  truth is one, one is eternity & infinite


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Registered: 06/08/13
Posts: 970
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Ketakitty]
    #19321268 - 12/24/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

one is the whole number between zero and two


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19321277 - 12/24/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

doesn't have to be taken to heart :p I think they call it noble due to the place from where it supposedly came... very simplified and condensed version... would make more sense if the rest was read I think

not scripture to live and die by... only tools for investigating

"Working with mind and its essential nature, rather than struggling to alter mere circumstantial conditions, reveals reality- both as it is and as it seemingly appears. Penetrating insight reveals that the responsibility for what we experience lies nowhere but within ourselves, and that the steering wheel of our own lives and evolution is in our hands. Wouldn't it be irresponsible to overlook this fact and continue to uncontrollably thrash around, thrashing others as well as ourselves? Check and see: Are your hands on the steering wheel of your life, or are they holding the rearview mirror while you wonder why you are careening around in such an unintended fashion?"

Awakening the Buddha Within by Lama Surya Das

I don't deny that it could not be completely universal but if I reflect on everyone I've ever known, it does apply to the majority id say

mindfulness is a form of meditation imo

aren't rules, just relative truth


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/24/13 01:54 PM)


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
Rusted Identifier

Registered: 06/08/13
Posts: 970
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Sse]
    #19321321 - 12/24/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"I think they call it noble due to the place from where it supposedly came"............You think? Supposedly? Why not be certain and familiar and confident with the pseudo religious words you are spouting? Don't pretend to understand it; scrutinize it. Does it make sense? Is it real? Is it grounded in history?

"mind's essential nature".....,..What does this mean?

"penetrating insight"......What does this mean?

These things don't make sense to me. How about you stop copy and pasting and try to describe reality in your own words.


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Registered: 06/08/13
Posts: 970
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19321329 - 12/24/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

relative truth is a literal oxymoron


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19321368 - 12/24/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Its not something I buy into so that's why I say supposedly... they are teachings from the Buddha hence the reason why its been called noble by so many and passed down in that context(not positive on the origin of the word noble, who knows what context was originally implied.)

in a hurry here but ill see what I can muster

for myself the four noble truths have proven true in my life... relative truth, in relation to my experience... proven true

I've already explained in my own words, though not really since its all things ive read. cycle through my posts if u need

Reality as is, is uncreated that's really all that needs to be known imo

minds essential nature is uncreated, without concept, as is

insight into the nature of our minds... cause and effect.. the seed you sow is what will show... samsara and nirvana are one... light and darkness are inseperable... darkness can be transformed into light with the power of letting go.

quit shaping me with your mind :p

my practice mainly consists of sustained inquiry without conclusion... all grist for thee mill

open minded, unconfined, nonjudgemental, equanimity is whats manifesting


all things can be made useful, somethings I don't agree with but in context and in the gist of things, and from personal experience id say it is very conducive to liberation from the minds continuous pattern of thought and the weighing negative aspects of an average(or most) subjective life


Edited by Sse (12/25/13 11:47 AM)


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OnlineKickleM
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Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,853
Last seen: 6 minutes, 52 seconds
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: deCypher]
    #19321650 - 12/24/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
while not mutually exclusive I think they can diverge at points. in those times of divergence, which do you choose to pursue?




Neither.  I choose the pursuit of happiness.




I don't feel happiness is different from wisdom or truth, I certainly find no lasting happiness in doing ignorant things




Perhaps not, but sometimes I feel like it's the examined life that isn't worth living, contrary to what Socrates espoused.  Sometimes knowing too much can be hazardous for your sanity, let alone your blissful ignorance.

Take for example someone who believes that when they die they'll go to Heaven.  Upon further inspection, reading and learning, they come to the (arguably) more intelligent conclusion that they don't know that for sure--it's possible, or even likely, that this life is all they get--that's that, nothing more.  Something tells me most people won't be happier after having arrived at this realization.  Same goes for knowledge of a lot of our shields against death anxiety, not just religion: culture itself or even some of the building blocks that make up our personality were erected by our minds explicitly so as to avoid facing the ugly truths out there.

It ain't all puppies and roses out there in the real world.  Sometimes ignorance really can be bliss.  :shrug:




I fully agree that it ain't for everyone. It can wreck ya. Its risk reward and it has to be weighed. My intuition told me to go ahead and examine away despite any emotional or mental roadblocks. I committed to it long before it ever turned ugly and by the time it did there was no turning back. Its turned out pretty well though :sun:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: the pursuit of truth or the pursuit of wisdom? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19321683 - 12/24/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roger Wilco said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
What I think matters is that you don't let these concepts diverge from yourself, wisdom is your nature, truth is your nature, if you allow these concepts to diverge from yourself & become phenomenal then you can say wisdom is this, truth is that...




This is bullshit. You can't just know truth in your heart. People deceive themselves all the time. To know truth takes work, time effort attention scrutiny skepticism. A lot of reality is counter intuitive, and requires revealing.

Truth is an attribute of information. Without something to be true or false, truth is intangible, and doesnt make sense. one does not find general truth, one finds varioustruths embedded within one another.Each moment and situation deserves the same skeptical attention, scrutiny

To obtain truth, use attention, scrutiny, and skepticism to navigate and examine reality.

To obtain wisdom, one must excercise their will, and participate in experience. Live a lot. As you experience life, you become wiser. Wisdom is not a general attribute; you do not become wise in aspects of reality that you do not engage with.


Quote:

Sse said:
The first noble truth: Life is difficult.

The second noble truth: Life is difficult because of attachment, because we crave satisfaction in ways that are inherently dissatisfying.

The third noble truth: The possibility of liberation from difficulties exists for everyone.

The fourth noble truth: the way to realize this liberation and enlightenment is by leading a compassionate life of virtue, wisdom, and meditation. These three spiritual trainings comprise the teachings of the Eight-Fold path to enlightenment.





This is all neither noble, or does any of it necessitate truth. This is pseudeo spiritual intellectually drivel. You can't just simplify people down to four rules that are neither universal, or rules at all.





Agree.  It seems fairly often that people who say they know the truth in their heart are just lazy or too afraid of truth.  Often both.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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