Home | Community | Message Board

Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,827
Can the future be altered any more than the past?
    #19307264 - 12/21/13 10:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It occurs to me that the future is about as meaningfully alterable (not counting the changes which can be made to the telling of history) as the past; i.e., not at all. If we don't know what it is, we cannot change it in any intentional and meaningful way. We can change it, but each change we make is a part in a series of steps which results in something, and we do not know the result beforehand. So, we cannot really precisely design the future, even with the noblest efforts. There will be unpredictability, and things will happen which could not have been planned for. We wouldn't know how to get around the pitfalls, because we can't see them. We can influence the future course of events, and sometimes, by the very powerful, an intentional plan can be realized -- for a relatively short period of time. There is always change, and to be blind to just what those changes are means that there always will be changes, which can deter the course of even the mightiest good fortune. The future may be alterable, but not precisely, and not to something permanent.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAyahuascasoul
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/21/12
Posts: 1,108
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19307366 - 12/21/13 10:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well in a way we can, if you take war as an example. When the solviet union was killing the afghan people the USA stepped in and armed them with high tech weapons changing the outcome of the war. Then the afghans used the same weapons against the us when they invaded changing the outcome of the afghans ability to fend off attackers. Decisions you make will always effect the future, you control your own destiny you just don't know it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMr Person
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: inner circle of fault
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19307678 - 12/21/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Fate via ignorance, yeah I would agree with that.  There is something to be said for our knack for imagining different yet equally plausible outcomes though.  I guess it's this natural cognitive future-extrapolating ability that causes us to think we have some agency in what actually occurs.  It's arguably one of the traits that directly led to civilization in the first place.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineIcyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa
Male


Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: Mr Person]
    #19307695 - 12/21/13 12:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

One may only alter the present. Though on a cosmological scale.. every moment is the present.. thus one can make prophesy and change "the past"..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,827
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: Ayahuascasoul]
    #19308033 - 12/21/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

In response to Ayahuascasoul: That's sort of my point though -- we create the future, sure, but we have no control over the outcome, a phenomenon of which you have given an excellent example.  We armed Osama bin Laden in the eighties, and look what happened.  If we could have forseen that, we wouldn't have done it, obviously.

You said, "you control your own destiny, you just don't know it."  I'm not entirely sure what this means.  First of all, you demonstrated that no, you don't control it, ultimately.  If you don't know what your destiny is, what information can you use to control it?

In response to Mr. Person, I essentially agree.  I think we have some agency, and I think it molds or shapes the future course of civilization.  That does not deny that no one knows what the world will be like a hundred years from now, and that no one, despite their best efforts, can really effect an intentional outcome.

The past and the future both are full of outrageous accidents.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19309696 - 12/21/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Future is being dependent upon choices currently pending where-as past is depending upon choices previously made, so I think they are mutually exclusive.

The future you can effect but the past you cannot; except relatively.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAyahuascasoul
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/21/12
Posts: 1,108
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: teknix]
    #19310003 - 12/21/13 11:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Future is being dependent upon choices currently pending where-as past is depending upon choices previously made, so I think they are mutually exclusive.

The future you can effect but the past you cannot; except relatively.




:whathesaid:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,759
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: Ayahuascasoul]
    #19310716 - 12/22/13 06:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

in the present, you can alter the past (endlessly, effortlessly), and make different guesses about the future (and plans ad infinitum), but there is only the present, which contains evidence of the past and potential for future.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19310723 - 12/22/13 06:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i can do that in five different languages simultaneously while juggling swords on a unicycle


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,827
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19311172 - 12/22/13 09:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
in the present, you can alter the past (endlessly, effortlessly), and make different guesses about the future (and plans ad infinitum), but there is only the present, which contains evidence of the past and potential for future.




Very well said.  Guesses and plans, yes; actual results unpredictable, and therefore uncontrollable.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineabsols
Stranger

Registered: 11/10/13
Posts: 986
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19311295 - 12/22/13 10:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
It occurs to me that the future is about as meaningfully alterable (not counting the changes which can be made to the telling of history) as the past; i.e., not at all. If we don't know what it is, we cannot change it in any intentional and meaningful way. We can change it, but each change we make is a part in a series of steps which results in something, and we do not know the result beforehand. So, we cannot really precisely design the future, even with the noblest efforts. There will be unpredictability, and things will happen which could not have been planned for. We wouldn't know how to get around the pitfalls, because we can't see them. We can influence the future course of events, and sometimes, by the very powerful, an intentional plan can be realized -- for a relatively short period of time. There is always change, and to be blind to just what those changes are means that there always will be changes, which can deter the course of even the mightiest good fortune. The future may be alterable, but not precisely, and not to something permanent.




it depends if it is about true existence or false

our existence is not true, so you cant alter the future at all because the present is not true ... whether it is already programmed for some definitive end or hidden hands are getting all existence for free, the fact that the present is not existing force the end to be known negative, and when the future is not positive thing, then its negative fact is the same one, cant be changed.. that is how the evilest one is god

but if the present exist, then the past is true, so the past will die totally, and the future is something that can be changed constantly ... the present is relative to future and to the past, the more the present exist the more the past die and the future is the present will


Edited by absols (12/22/13 10:20 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblehmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 372
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19311478 - 12/22/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
in the present, you can alter the past (endlessly, effortlessly), and make different guesses about the future (and plans ad infinitum), but there is only the present, which contains evidence of the past and potential for future.




:aweyeah:

I see it as redgreen has said.  Still...the question of free-will & determinism arises for me as well.  Do we have any role in altering the present's potential for the future, or are we purely deterministic beings whose fate is already set? :shrug:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,827
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: hmmn]
    #19311553 - 12/22/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hmmn said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
in the present, you can alter the past (endlessly, effortlessly), and make different guesses about the future (and plans ad infinitum), but there is only the present, which contains evidence of the past and potential for future.




:aweyeah:

I see it as redgreen has said.  Still...the question of free-will & determinism arises for me as well.  Do we have any role in altering the present's potential for the future, or are we purely deterministic beings whose fate is already set? :shrug:




I don't think it's a question of free will vs. determinism.  If we have free will, the future is still unknown and, while shapeable (at best), it never turns out according to anyone's plans.  Conversely, if the universe is one of pure determinism and fate, it's the same:  we still don't know what the future holds, so what's the difference?  Even in a deterministic universe, one can react and make changes.  I see the point I have been making as applicable to both a perspective of free will and fate.  The argument is the same.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblehmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 372
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19311983 - 12/22/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

hmmn said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
in the present, you can alter the past (endlessly, effortlessly), and make different guesses about the future (and plans ad infinitum), but there is only the present, which contains evidence of the past and potential for future.




:aweyeah:

I see it as redgreen has said.  Still...the question of free-will & determinism arises for me as well.  Do we have any role in altering the present's potential for the future, or are we purely deterministic beings whose fate is already set? :shrug:




I don't think it's a question of free will vs. determinism.  If we have free will, the future is still unknown and, while shapeable (at best), it never turns out according to anyone's plans.  Conversely, if the universe is one of pure determinism and fate, it's the same:  we still don't know what the future holds, so what's the difference?  Even in a deterministic universe, one can react and make changes.  I see the point I have been making as applicable to both a perspective of free will and fate.  The argument is the same.




Hmmm...I see the topic as necessitating discussion of free will & determinism, despite agreeing with most of what you said.

...

I agree that both free will and hard determinism are compatible with us having experiences and making decisions in reaction to events.

I read your initial post as questioning whether we can have any meaningful impact on the future, in which a meaningful impact is defined as producing an intended future state that is predictable.  You then entertain the argument that we cannot have any meaningful impact on the future because our efforts in the present have unpredictable results.  (is that about right?)

Because there are examples of future states that can be produced quite reliably through action in the present, I don't think that argument will work!  For example, I know with certainty that I can start a big fire by combining a small amount of fire with a large amount of gasoline in an atmosphere containing oxygen.  Anytime I combine these factors I will get a big fire, and as I start the fire it seems that I execute a meaningful impact on the future.

...

However, I also question whether we have any meaningful impact on the future.  I question this because it appears to me that all my actions are actually predetermined by cause and effect.  Although I certainly have experiences and make decisions based on them, so far as I can tell all my experiences and decisions are the result of causal interactions between many impersonal forces in the universe (e.g. the molecules and energies that make up my body and surroundings, and whatever it is that makes up my mind and sense of self).  This leads me to question whether I have free will in any meaningful sense.

If it's true that my actions and experiences - and the world that exists beyond them - are determined by the causal network that makes up the universe (i.e. if there is no supernatural aspect to my existence), then it seems to me that I have no ability to change the future.  The act of changing it is itself predetermined.

Doesn't that line of thinking pose a contradiction to the notion that we have any meaningful impact on the future? :cookiemonster:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,759
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: hmmn]
    #19312156 - 12/22/13 02:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hmmn said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

hmmn said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
in the present, you can alter the past (endlessly, effortlessly), and make different guesses about the future (and plans ad infinitum), but there is only the present, which contains evidence of the past and potential for future.




:aweyeah:

I see it as redgreen has said.  Still...the question of free-will & determinism arises for me as well.  Do we have any role in altering the present's potential for the future, or are we purely deterministic beings whose fate is already set? :shrug:




I don't think it's a question of free will vs. determinism.  If we have free will, the future is still unknown and, while shapeable (at best), it never turns out according to anyone's plans.  Conversely, if the universe is one of pure determinism and fate, it's the same:  we still don't know what the future holds, so what's the difference?  Even in a deterministic universe, one can react and make changes.  I see the point I have been making as applicable to both a perspective of free will and fate.  The argument is the same.




Hmmm...I see the topic as necessitating discussion of free will & determinism, despite agreeing with most of what you said.

...

I agree that both free will and hard determinism are compatible with us having experiences and making decisions in reaction to events.

I read your initial post as questioning whether we can have any meaningful impact on the future, in which a meaningful impact is defined as producing an intended future state that is predictable.  You then entertain the argument that we cannot have any meaningful impact on the future because our efforts in the present have unpredictable results.  (is that about right?)

Because there are examples of future states that can be produced quite reliably through action in the present, I don't think that argument will work!  For example, I know with certainty that I can start a big fire by combining a small amount of fire with a large amount of gasoline in an atmosphere containing oxygen.  Anytime I combine these factors I will get a big fire, and as I start the fire it seems that I execute a meaningful impact on the future.

...

However, I also question whether we have any meaningful impact on the future.  I question this because it appears to me that all my actions are actually predetermined by cause and effect.  Although I certainly have experiences and make decisions based on them, so far as I can tell all my experiences and decisions are the result of causal interactions between many impersonal forces in the universe (e.g. the molecules and energies that make up my body and surroundings, and whatever it is that makes up my mind and sense of self).  This leads me to question whether I have free will in any meaningful sense.

If it's true that my actions and experiences - and the world that exists beyond them - are determined by the causal network that makes up the universe (i.e. if there is no supernatural aspect to my existence), then it seems to me that I have no ability to change the future.  The act of changing it is itself predetermined.

Doesn't that line of thinking pose a contradiction to the notion that we have any meaningful impact on the future? :cookiemonster:




a meaningful impact upon the future is certainly possible, allow me to disregard the gasoline enhanced display as "not necessarily meaningful" but also not connected to any particular course of people or nature, and not aligned with any values.

I accept that much of what happens is cause and effect including our reflection upon what is happening what was happening and what might happen next.

how we contribute "meaningfully" depends on our values, what we care about, and how we connect with the activity.
If we are strongly connected, we keep an eye on the progress and steer the outcome to be more in accord with our values.

you could say that all of that can be achieved without free will, by dwelling on the fact that our values are conditioned features of mental disposition.

I would not entirely disagree, but I think that we can review our own disposition, and we can cultivate features of it, changing what we care about independently from that which prevails over other things.

to that extent we have some freedom, some ability to consider what is valuable, some ability to change those values, and the freedom to commit to doing what we can to ensure the course of nature so that our contribution reflects those values.

that, is meaningful and free, and it is effort, and it is worth the effort (i.e. valuable)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblehmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 372
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19312226 - 12/22/13 02:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hehe..I'm attempting to use OP's definition of meaningful redgreen, not my own.  My intent is to see whether his argument is valid.

Quote:

I would not entirely disagree, but I think that we can review our own disposition, and we can cultivate features of it, changing what we care about independently from that which prevails over other things.




I agree that we can do all of these things, but this doesn't address the question of whether we have free will or are subject to hard determinism.  Although I can choose to quit smoking, that choice itself may be irrelevant to a discussion of whether I can impact the future meaningfully if that choice was utterly determined by the culture in which I live etc.  Does my choice change anything about the future if the choice itself was entirely determined by the past?


Edited by hmmn (12/22/13 02:54 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19312272 - 12/22/13 03:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Can the future be altered... ?




Your question makes no sense. Altered from what?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineabsols
Stranger

Registered: 11/10/13
Posts: 986
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: hmmn]
    #19312310 - 12/22/13 03:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

the fact that all is one reality prove the impossible future.. any move is to all same more .. the only issue is the death of all, that is how we are mortals and anything also is for a time

think of it simply, future do not exist, we die so there is no future for us

how can you mean to change something that don't even exist ??


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,759
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19312315 - 12/22/13 03:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

answer
- sticktoitiveness


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19312334 - 12/22/13 03:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I made my fortune in Velcro.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Is it possible to change the past?
( 1 2 3 all )
cleaner 3,112 40 09/14/04 04:46 PM
by BlueOrb
* Future Flashbacks Lord_of_Fungus 880 9 06/10/03 09:49 PM
by johnnyfive
* Can present action change the past?
( 1 2 all )
eve69 2,973 28 12/17/03 09:29 AM
by truekimbo2
* Character Tests of: Misinterpretation, Intent, and Confrontation.... PhanTomCat 552 0 02/24/05 07:12 PM
by PhanTomCat
* Intention vs. Desire Swami 1,405 11 06/16/03 01:36 PM
by Anonymous
* A NEW HOPE - GODianity.... Living with TRUE Selfless Positive Intentions Towards Others.... PhanTomCat 1,350 10 03/19/05 10:26 PM
by niteowl
* Space Impact Responsible for the Survival of Christianity? Jackal 913 5 06/24/03 02:24 PM
by fireworks_god
* An exercise in interpretation or intention.
( 1 2 3 all )
Anonymous 3,342 42 02/11/04 04:06 PM
by trendal

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,469 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.022 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 14 queries.