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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born
    #19308245 - 12/21/13 02:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I want to bring up this concept of the business man that tony parsons talks about in his lectures.


He says that what prevents us from seeing the beauty of life most of the time is that we look at the world as a business man instead of as a lover.

We always live in anticipation, trying to get something, hoping that things will get better, we are always trying to make a business deal with reality.

Many times throughout my life I have had glimpses of what it looks like without the business man and I have realized that what I am wanting all the time, what the business man is always promising to get for me but never delivering, is just whats there when the business man isn't. This is why I am convinced that what really needs to happen is for the business man to die.

Soon after realizing this, a hitman came to me and offered to dispose of the business man for me, so naturally I agreed to hire him. Only as soon as I had given him his free, I came to discover that the hitman was actually the business man disguised as a hitman.


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19308281 - 12/21/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think the business man needs to die.  Life, as I have yet to see it, is a polar experience, and I don't think that a person living totally as a business man is in balance. Nor do I see someone who lives totally as a lover is in balance. 

How does one be the business man, and still be a lover to the world?

Furthermore, how are we going to help further society, help to heal our wounds, help produce food and medicine for people, if we are not business oriented, at least in part?

My first response to your musings. 

~


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19308284 - 12/21/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I've been trying to cultivate the business man in myself, but to do it with love, and so that my business man can do business in the world with loving touch and intention.

Thoughts~


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19308302 - 12/21/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

hahaha OP
epic post

my thoughts would always try to convince me what was best to be
living as a business man, or living as pure experience

but the real self knows best, it doesnt think about it :-)

just be


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19308310 - 12/21/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BoulderMushrooms said:
I don't think the business man needs to die.  Life, as I have yet to see it, is a polar experience, and I don't think that a person living totally as a business man is in balance. Nor do I see someone who lives totally as a lover is in balance. 

How does one be the business man, and still be a lover to the world?

Furthermore, how are we going to help further society, help to heal our wounds, help produce food and medicine for people, if we are not business oriented, at least in part?

My first response to your musings. 

~





We can do those things the same way that a child does things, totally in the moment. Instead of growing food for people in anticipation of a better world, we can grow food because its feels good and right to grow food.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19308331 - 12/21/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Im always in the moment when I program C
universal language ;-)
or when I do math
as long as it isnt all day

life is about balance

btw Office Space is a nice movie


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19308384 - 12/21/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yep, I hear you on that.  We are also (I am assuming you are living in the Western world) privileged to live in a world where we don't have to grow all our food - if we don't grow enough to survive, we can go to the grocery. 

If we do things totally as children do them, we might forsake growing enough food for chasing butterflies, or we might decide to throw a tantrum because we are not happy with things - totally in the moment mind you:)

Balance - being able to have fun and live youthfully, and get done what needs to be done, put the food on the table.  I grow food for both those reasons - because it brings me joy, and I want to create the world I anticipate and want to live in.

~


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19308575 - 12/21/13 04:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I want to bring up this concept of the business man that tony parsons talks about in his lectures.


He says that what prevents us from seeing the beauty of life most of the time is that we look at the world as a business man instead of as a lover.

We always live in anticipation, trying to get something, hoping that things will get better, we are always trying to make a business deal with reality.







I really do sometimes hate being the naysayer over and over again because I sound like a broken record even to myself,  but I want to point out that this guy is well off financially.  These guys, it seems to me, never seem to talk like this on their way up but only after they've made it and have no financial, material and emotional worries associated with material matters.  When you're at the top of the heap, financially and otherwise it's very easy to tell other people to chill out and don't compete.

So I'd just say to keep this in mind when evaluating what this guy is telling us.  I'm not going to comment on whether I think he's wrong or right here but on whether what his is saying is reasonable advice, in the sense that he is not being somewhat hypocritical in offering it.

Once I made it to financial security it was much easier to tell myself and others to just relax and float downstream.  Sort of in the same way a lion when it's stuffed with a fresh kill will become somewhat playful, relaxed, and non competitive.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19309570 - 12/21/13 09:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You guys are misunderstanding this, it has absolutely nothing to with finances. The "the business man" is the ego. The ego always wants to do business with reality. It is never satisfied. The ego always thinks it can get soemthing to make it satisfied, whether its money, a girlfriend, a new house, a nice car, or enligtenment.

But in reality, its the ego thats in the way of the wholeness its so desires, so a death must happen. I am not enligthened, but I know this to be true because many layers of my ego have fallen away and so I can see how it operates in myself and it is very easy to see that it is never satisfied and it never will be satisfied for very long by getting something. I used to believe in the ego and thought I could get happy by getting things. But it never worked. No thing that I ever got ever made me happy for very long at all. The only thing that my ego is still thinks could make it happy is a perfect girlfriend, but people tell me this too is a delusion and relationships are not automatic happiness. If that is true then the ego is completely delusional. 


its those moments when I see my ego for what it is, that is when I am peaceful. That is when I feel my inner child has returned and I am free and innocent again.

Hes not saying dont make moeny or dont worry about your finances. That has absolutely nothing to do with this message and he is not even like the gurus who say that its hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The enligteneed state is very similar to the state of a small child who looks at the world and doesnt want anything from it. as long as its with its motehr and has food, all is right with the world. Now think how unlike adults that is. How many adults do you know who are completely satisfied with their lives whenever their most basic physical needs are met? No, adults want all sorts of other things which they dont really need.

I dont know about you guys but I have very clear memories of my childhood and I can remember being in this state of peaceful innocence. This is what I am trying to get back to.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19309576 - 12/21/13 09:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
I want to bring up this concept of the business man that tony parsons talks about in his lectures.


He says that what prevents us from seeing the beauty of life most of the time is that we look at the world as a business man instead of as a lover.

We always live in anticipation, trying to get something, hoping that things will get better, we are always trying to make a business deal with reality.







I really do sometimes hate being the naysayer over and over again because I sound like a broken record even to myself,  but I want to point out that this guy is well off financially.  These guys, it seems to me, never seem to talk like this on their way up but only after they've made it and have no financial, material and emotional worries associated with material matters.  When you're at the top of the heap, financially and otherwise it's very easy to tell other people to chill out and don't compete.

So I'd just say to keep this in mind when evaluating what this guy is telling us.  I'm not going to comment on whether I think he's wrong or right here but on whether what his is saying is reasonable advice, in the sense that he is not being somewhat hypocritical in offering it.

Once I made it to financial security it was much easier to tell myself and others to just relax and float downstream.  Sort of in the same way a lion when it's stuffed with a fresh kill will become somewhat playful, relaxed, and non competitive.





it seems like you are stuck on evaluating tony parsons, which i think is rather pointless. even if he is a swindler trying to make a quick buck with spiritual talks, it doesnt change the fact that is right about the fact that there is this business man in us that always wants to get something from the world.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19310623 - 12/22/13 05:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I want to bring up this concept of the business man that tony parsons talks about in his lectures.


He says that what prevents us from seeing the beauty of life most of the time is that we look at the world as a business man instead of as a lover.

We always live in anticipation, trying to get something, hoping that things will get better, we are always trying to make a business deal with reality.

Many times throughout my life I have had glimpses of what it looks like without the business man and I have realized that what I am wanting all the time, what the business man is always promising to get for me but never delivering, is just whats there when the business man isn't. This is why I am convinced that what really needs to happen is for the business man to die.

Soon after realizing this, a hitman came to me and offered to dispose of the business man for me, so naturally I agreed to hire him. Only as soon as I had given him his free, I came to discover that the hitman was actually the business man disguised as a hitman.




Reminds me of what Ramana said about the mind being a thief dressed as a policeman, who will pretend to help you find the thief, but being the thief himself, he will not be found

I am quite glad to have zero of what people call 'business acumen', to be honest i don't enjoy being around people that are always switched on looking for the next good deal, the next bang for their buck, the next opportunity
This actually made me start tripping alone again, last time i tripped with my trip buddy (who recently started his own business) all he went on about was business, making money, exploiting people, there is certainly something to be said about the 'business attitude'

Quite a few philosophies teach that problems should be seen as opportunities, i don't, it is what it is
Ultimately whatever you gain you will lose, so race on ratman, i'll be waiting for you at the finish line


--------------------


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19310654 - 12/22/13 05:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
but I want to point out that this guy is well off financially.




How do you know? Just wondering

He has published books, and gives meetings to a few dozen people every now & then, but i can't see him rolling in the cash, not enough people are into his message for that

Quote:

Icelander said:
Once I made it to financial security it was much easier to tell myself and others to just relax and float downstream.




It was easier to say it, but any easier to do it?
Surely, according to your theory, as your financially comfortable now, its easier to put into practice? I don't get that impression from your posts that it's become easier for you

I like the Lion analogy tho


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 2
    #19310846 - 12/22/13 07:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
You guys are misunderstanding this, it has absolutely nothing to with finances. The "the business man" is the ego. The ego always wants to do business with reality. It is never satisfied. The ego always thinks it can get soemthing to make it satisfied, whether its money, a girlfriend, a new house, a nice car, or enligtenment.

But in reality, its the ego thats in the way of the wholeness its so desires, so a death must happen. I am not enligthened, but I know this to be true because many layers of my ego have fallen away and so I can see how it operates in myself and it is very easy to see that it is never satisfied and it never will be satisfied for very long by getting something. I used to believe in the ego and thought I could get happy by getting things. But it never worked. No thing that I ever got ever made me happy for very long at all. The only thing that my ego is still thinks could make it happy is a perfect girlfriend, but people tell me this too is a delusion and relationships are not automatic happiness. If that is true then the ego is completely delusional. 


its those moments when I see my ego for what it is, that is when I am peaceful. That is when I feel my inner child has returned and I am free and innocent again.

Hes not saying dont make moeny or dont worry about your finances. That has absolutely nothing to do with this message and he is not even like the gurus who say that its hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The enligteneed state is very similar to the state of a small child who looks at the world and doesnt want anything from it. as long as its with its motehr and has food, all is right with the world. Now think how unlike adults that is. How many adults do you know who are completely satisfied with their lives whenever their most basic physical needs are met? No, adults want all sorts of other things which they dont really need.

I dont know about you guys but I have very clear memories of my childhood and I can remember being in this state of peaceful innocence. This is what I am trying to get back to.





I think you really misunderstand the value of an ego.  Just try living without one.  The problem is how the ego operates. Is it healthy and not fear driven to the extent that it tries to run the whole of the personality or is it more relaxed easy going?  As in the concept of the helpful and watchful guardian that we have turned into a despotic prison guard.  The ego is necessary for navigating material reality as a separate physical entity.  How well your experience goes in living is a direct result of the emotional health of your ego structure.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19310855 - 12/22/13 07:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
but I want to point out that this guy is well off financially.




How do you know? Just wondering

He has published books, and gives meetings to a few dozen people every now & then, but i can't see him rolling in the cash, not enough people are into his message for that

Quote:

Icelander said:
Once I made it to financial security it was much easier to tell myself and others to just relax and float downstream.




It was easier to say it, but any easier to do it?
Surely, according to your theory, as your financially comfortable now, its easier to put into practice? I don't get that impression from your posts that it's become easier for you

I like the Lion analogy tho




Yeah it's easier to do it for me now that I'm financially secure. :thumbup:  Doesn't mean I don't have other issues of course. . And I could tell by his clothes and his surroundings that he's very comfortable.  He's doing just fine. I think he want's to do better however.  That may be a difference between him and me.  I'm pretty satisfied to stay right where I am.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Registered: 04/21/13
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #19311296 - 12/22/13 10:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I definitely hear the logic about not getting caught in the rat race, not having the business mind with all of life.

I have a question for those of you who are very much in this side of the persuasion - do you still have any desire to help people?

I think there is a very wide gap between the person who seeks enlightenment for the benefit of himself, and the bodisattvah who seeks enlightenment for the benefit of all, and even puts off enlightenment until all others are enlightened.  If you are of the more bodhisattvah mind, how can you help people efficiently without positive aspects (the drive and intellect) of the business person?

~


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19311362 - 12/22/13 10:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
You guys are misunderstanding this, it has absolutely nothing to with finances. The "the business man" is the ego. The ego always wants to do business with reality. It is never satisfied. The ego always thinks it can get soemthing to make it satisfied, whether its money, a girlfriend, a new house, a nice car, or enligtenment.

But in reality, its the ego thats in the way of the wholeness its so desires, so a death must happen. I am not enligthened, but I know this to be true because many layers of my ego have fallen away and so I can see how it operates in myself and it is very easy to see that it is never satisfied and it never will be satisfied for very long by getting something. I used to believe in the ego and thought I could get happy by getting things. But it never worked. No thing that I ever got ever made me happy for very long at all. The only thing that my ego is still thinks could make it happy is a perfect girlfriend, but people tell me this too is a delusion and relationships are not automatic happiness. If that is true then the ego is completely delusional. 


its those moments when I see my ego for what it is, that is when I am peaceful. That is when I feel my inner child has returned and I am free and innocent again.

Hes not saying dont make moeny or dont worry about your finances. That has absolutely nothing to do with this message and he is not even like the gurus who say that its hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The enligteneed state is very similar to the state of a small child who looks at the world and doesnt want anything from it. as long as its with its motehr and has food, all is right with the world. Now think how unlike adults that is. How many adults do you know who are completely satisfied with their lives whenever their most basic physical needs are met? No, adults want all sorts of other things which they dont really need.

I dont know about you guys but I have very clear memories of my childhood and I can remember being in this state of peaceful innocence. This is what I am trying to get back to.





I think you really misunderstand the value of an ego.  Just try living without one.  The problem is how the ego operates. Is it healthy and not fear driven to the extent that it tries to run the whole of the personality or is it more relaxed easy going?  As in the concept of the helpful and watchful guardian that we have turned into a despotic prison guard.  The ego is necessary for navigating material reality as a separate physical entity.  How well your experience goes in living is a direct result of the emotional health of your ego structure.




The ego has no value. It is completely useless. You are pulling the old bait and switch, replace the ego with the personality and sense of identity and point out how valuable and necessary those are. Yes, one could call those the ego but that is not what Tony Parsons or Ramana Maharshi is saying must me eliminated when they say the ego must be eliminated. Its the identification with those things, the feeling that that is you are, a limited personality structure trapped in an ape like material body. Leaving this behind does not destroy your personality, your personality is hard wired into your brain, it ain't going anywhere anytime soon but it is possible to cease identification with it. I have had many such experiences, especially around the time when I first started smoking marijuana Id get a lot of dearealization and depersonalization so for instance id be driving down the road and all of a sudden I wouldn't be. The car would still be there and my body would still be in it and my mind would still be there awake and alert, controlling the car, watching for traffic, etc only there was no longer any sense that "I" played any part in this whatsoever. I was simply the witness of it. This is called the "witnessing state", it is still far from liberation but from this state its quite obvious how useless the ego is and how much better off one is without it. It serves absolutely no function other than to screw things up. The mind and personality functions perfectly normally without it.

My theory is that the ego is training wheels for the mind. It helps a child form a separate identity for itself, which is necessary for survival in the world. But once this process is complete, the ego should be discarded. Once you understandf how to care for your body, there is no reason for the ego anymore. Unfortunately with the very low state of consciousness found on this planet, most people are keeping their egos into adulthood and beyond and many people are seeking to inflate and glorify them rather than surrender them.

This is why the Bible goes on and on about how the proud and haughty shall be brought to shame, while the meek and humble will inherit the earth. The proud are dspending their whole lives seekign to validate something which does not exist, something which has no more reality than a shadow.

Quote:

How well your experience goes in living is a direct result of the emotional health of your ego structure.





Yes of course, so one can spend their whole life trying to improve their ego or one can obtain liberation and cease worrying about it. After liberation, the ego will automatically heal.


Edited by Deviate (12/22/13 10:50 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19311435 - 12/22/13 11:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BoulderMushrooms said:
I definitely hear the logic about not getting caught in the rat race, not having the business mind with all of life.

I have a question for those of you who are very much in this side of the persuasion - do you still have any desire to help people?

I think there is a very wide gap between the person who seeks enlightenment for the benefit of himself, and the bodisattvah who seeks enlightenment for the benefit of all, and even puts off enlightenment until all others are enlightened.  If you are of the more bodhisattvah mind, how can you help people efficiently without positive aspects (the drive and intellect) of the business person?

~




I love helping people.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19311442 - 12/22/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

This is why the Bible goes on and on about how the proud and haughty shall be brought to shame

" I am a jealous god" 

:lol:

Believe whatever you like.  Consider it my Xmas gift to you. :nicesmile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineall this beauty
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Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19311448 - 12/22/13 11:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
The ego has no value. It is completely useless.



Nothing wrong with the "ego."  Nothing to escape there.  Doctrines that proclaim otherwise are full of shit.  Buddhists who proclaim otherwise are full of shit.

Your ego -- your sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility -- is precisely what brings you to forums and discussions like this one.  If you were some cosmically perfect wishy-washy ego-less thing, you'd be boring.  No one would want to listen to you or go to the movies with you.

We have a sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility because those "senses" serve biological / evolutionary purposes.  There is no cosmic trickster burdening us with attributes that aren't useful to us. 

All in my opinion.


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: all this beauty]
    #19311727 - 12/22/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Aye, much agreement with the recent posts, especially that there is nothing inherently wrong with the ego - its the ONLY thing that allows us to operate in this world, or even exist in this world at all, without completely dissolving into the oneness/nothingness. 


Most of all I agree with Icelander - Believe whatever you want.  Thanks for the Christmas gift!!!! :smile:  Nobody's argument is going to make us change our opinion unless we are open to that anyways.

~


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