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OfflineDeviate
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After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born
    #19308245 - 12/21/13 02:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I want to bring up this concept of the business man that tony parsons talks about in his lectures.


He says that what prevents us from seeing the beauty of life most of the time is that we look at the world as a business man instead of as a lover.

We always live in anticipation, trying to get something, hoping that things will get better, we are always trying to make a business deal with reality.

Many times throughout my life I have had glimpses of what it looks like without the business man and I have realized that what I am wanting all the time, what the business man is always promising to get for me but never delivering, is just whats there when the business man isn't. This is why I am convinced that what really needs to happen is for the business man to die.

Soon after realizing this, a hitman came to me and offered to dispose of the business man for me, so naturally I agreed to hire him. Only as soon as I had given him his free, I came to discover that the hitman was actually the business man disguised as a hitman.


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19308281 - 12/21/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think the business man needs to die.  Life, as I have yet to see it, is a polar experience, and I don't think that a person living totally as a business man is in balance. Nor do I see someone who lives totally as a lover is in balance. 

How does one be the business man, and still be a lover to the world?

Furthermore, how are we going to help further society, help to heal our wounds, help produce food and medicine for people, if we are not business oriented, at least in part?

My first response to your musings. 

~


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19308284 - 12/21/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I've been trying to cultivate the business man in myself, but to do it with love, and so that my business man can do business in the world with loving touch and intention.

Thoughts~


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19308302 - 12/21/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

hahaha OP
epic post

my thoughts would always try to convince me what was best to be
living as a business man, or living as pure experience

but the real self knows best, it doesnt think about it :-)

just be


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19308310 - 12/21/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BoulderMushrooms said:
I don't think the business man needs to die.  Life, as I have yet to see it, is a polar experience, and I don't think that a person living totally as a business man is in balance. Nor do I see someone who lives totally as a lover is in balance. 

How does one be the business man, and still be a lover to the world?

Furthermore, how are we going to help further society, help to heal our wounds, help produce food and medicine for people, if we are not business oriented, at least in part?

My first response to your musings. 

~





We can do those things the same way that a child does things, totally in the moment. Instead of growing food for people in anticipation of a better world, we can grow food because its feels good and right to grow food.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19308331 - 12/21/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Im always in the moment when I program C
universal language ;-)
or when I do math
as long as it isnt all day

life is about balance

btw Office Space is a nice movie


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19308384 - 12/21/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yep, I hear you on that.  We are also (I am assuming you are living in the Western world) privileged to live in a world where we don't have to grow all our food - if we don't grow enough to survive, we can go to the grocery. 

If we do things totally as children do them, we might forsake growing enough food for chasing butterflies, or we might decide to throw a tantrum because we are not happy with things - totally in the moment mind you:)

Balance - being able to have fun and live youthfully, and get done what needs to be done, put the food on the table.  I grow food for both those reasons - because it brings me joy, and I want to create the world I anticipate and want to live in.

~


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19308575 - 12/21/13 04:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I want to bring up this concept of the business man that tony parsons talks about in his lectures.


He says that what prevents us from seeing the beauty of life most of the time is that we look at the world as a business man instead of as a lover.

We always live in anticipation, trying to get something, hoping that things will get better, we are always trying to make a business deal with reality.







I really do sometimes hate being the naysayer over and over again because I sound like a broken record even to myself,  but I want to point out that this guy is well off financially.  These guys, it seems to me, never seem to talk like this on their way up but only after they've made it and have no financial, material and emotional worries associated with material matters.  When you're at the top of the heap, financially and otherwise it's very easy to tell other people to chill out and don't compete.

So I'd just say to keep this in mind when evaluating what this guy is telling us.  I'm not going to comment on whether I think he's wrong or right here but on whether what his is saying is reasonable advice, in the sense that he is not being somewhat hypocritical in offering it.

Once I made it to financial security it was much easier to tell myself and others to just relax and float downstream.  Sort of in the same way a lion when it's stuffed with a fresh kill will become somewhat playful, relaxed, and non competitive.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19309570 - 12/21/13 09:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You guys are misunderstanding this, it has absolutely nothing to with finances. The "the business man" is the ego. The ego always wants to do business with reality. It is never satisfied. The ego always thinks it can get soemthing to make it satisfied, whether its money, a girlfriend, a new house, a nice car, or enligtenment.

But in reality, its the ego thats in the way of the wholeness its so desires, so a death must happen. I am not enligthened, but I know this to be true because many layers of my ego have fallen away and so I can see how it operates in myself and it is very easy to see that it is never satisfied and it never will be satisfied for very long by getting something. I used to believe in the ego and thought I could get happy by getting things. But it never worked. No thing that I ever got ever made me happy for very long at all. The only thing that my ego is still thinks could make it happy is a perfect girlfriend, but people tell me this too is a delusion and relationships are not automatic happiness. If that is true then the ego is completely delusional. 


its those moments when I see my ego for what it is, that is when I am peaceful. That is when I feel my inner child has returned and I am free and innocent again.

Hes not saying dont make moeny or dont worry about your finances. That has absolutely nothing to do with this message and he is not even like the gurus who say that its hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The enligteneed state is very similar to the state of a small child who looks at the world and doesnt want anything from it. as long as its with its motehr and has food, all is right with the world. Now think how unlike adults that is. How many adults do you know who are completely satisfied with their lives whenever their most basic physical needs are met? No, adults want all sorts of other things which they dont really need.

I dont know about you guys but I have very clear memories of my childhood and I can remember being in this state of peaceful innocence. This is what I am trying to get back to.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19309576 - 12/21/13 09:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
I want to bring up this concept of the business man that tony parsons talks about in his lectures.


He says that what prevents us from seeing the beauty of life most of the time is that we look at the world as a business man instead of as a lover.

We always live in anticipation, trying to get something, hoping that things will get better, we are always trying to make a business deal with reality.







I really do sometimes hate being the naysayer over and over again because I sound like a broken record even to myself,  but I want to point out that this guy is well off financially.  These guys, it seems to me, never seem to talk like this on their way up but only after they've made it and have no financial, material and emotional worries associated with material matters.  When you're at the top of the heap, financially and otherwise it's very easy to tell other people to chill out and don't compete.

So I'd just say to keep this in mind when evaluating what this guy is telling us.  I'm not going to comment on whether I think he's wrong or right here but on whether what his is saying is reasonable advice, in the sense that he is not being somewhat hypocritical in offering it.

Once I made it to financial security it was much easier to tell myself and others to just relax and float downstream.  Sort of in the same way a lion when it's stuffed with a fresh kill will become somewhat playful, relaxed, and non competitive.





it seems like you are stuck on evaluating tony parsons, which i think is rather pointless. even if he is a swindler trying to make a quick buck with spiritual talks, it doesnt change the fact that is right about the fact that there is this business man in us that always wants to get something from the world.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19310623 - 12/22/13 05:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I want to bring up this concept of the business man that tony parsons talks about in his lectures.


He says that what prevents us from seeing the beauty of life most of the time is that we look at the world as a business man instead of as a lover.

We always live in anticipation, trying to get something, hoping that things will get better, we are always trying to make a business deal with reality.

Many times throughout my life I have had glimpses of what it looks like without the business man and I have realized that what I am wanting all the time, what the business man is always promising to get for me but never delivering, is just whats there when the business man isn't. This is why I am convinced that what really needs to happen is for the business man to die.

Soon after realizing this, a hitman came to me and offered to dispose of the business man for me, so naturally I agreed to hire him. Only as soon as I had given him his free, I came to discover that the hitman was actually the business man disguised as a hitman.




Reminds me of what Ramana said about the mind being a thief dressed as a policeman, who will pretend to help you find the thief, but being the thief himself, he will not be found

I am quite glad to have zero of what people call 'business acumen', to be honest i don't enjoy being around people that are always switched on looking for the next good deal, the next bang for their buck, the next opportunity
This actually made me start tripping alone again, last time i tripped with my trip buddy (who recently started his own business) all he went on about was business, making money, exploiting people, there is certainly something to be said about the 'business attitude'

Quite a few philosophies teach that problems should be seen as opportunities, i don't, it is what it is
Ultimately whatever you gain you will lose, so race on ratman, i'll be waiting for you at the finish line


--------------------


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19310654 - 12/22/13 05:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
but I want to point out that this guy is well off financially.




How do you know? Just wondering

He has published books, and gives meetings to a few dozen people every now & then, but i can't see him rolling in the cash, not enough people are into his message for that

Quote:

Icelander said:
Once I made it to financial security it was much easier to tell myself and others to just relax and float downstream.




It was easier to say it, but any easier to do it?
Surely, according to your theory, as your financially comfortable now, its easier to put into practice? I don't get that impression from your posts that it's become easier for you

I like the Lion analogy tho


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 2
    #19310846 - 12/22/13 07:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
You guys are misunderstanding this, it has absolutely nothing to with finances. The "the business man" is the ego. The ego always wants to do business with reality. It is never satisfied. The ego always thinks it can get soemthing to make it satisfied, whether its money, a girlfriend, a new house, a nice car, or enligtenment.

But in reality, its the ego thats in the way of the wholeness its so desires, so a death must happen. I am not enligthened, but I know this to be true because many layers of my ego have fallen away and so I can see how it operates in myself and it is very easy to see that it is never satisfied and it never will be satisfied for very long by getting something. I used to believe in the ego and thought I could get happy by getting things. But it never worked. No thing that I ever got ever made me happy for very long at all. The only thing that my ego is still thinks could make it happy is a perfect girlfriend, but people tell me this too is a delusion and relationships are not automatic happiness. If that is true then the ego is completely delusional. 


its those moments when I see my ego for what it is, that is when I am peaceful. That is when I feel my inner child has returned and I am free and innocent again.

Hes not saying dont make moeny or dont worry about your finances. That has absolutely nothing to do with this message and he is not even like the gurus who say that its hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The enligteneed state is very similar to the state of a small child who looks at the world and doesnt want anything from it. as long as its with its motehr and has food, all is right with the world. Now think how unlike adults that is. How many adults do you know who are completely satisfied with their lives whenever their most basic physical needs are met? No, adults want all sorts of other things which they dont really need.

I dont know about you guys but I have very clear memories of my childhood and I can remember being in this state of peaceful innocence. This is what I am trying to get back to.





I think you really misunderstand the value of an ego.  Just try living without one.  The problem is how the ego operates. Is it healthy and not fear driven to the extent that it tries to run the whole of the personality or is it more relaxed easy going?  As in the concept of the helpful and watchful guardian that we have turned into a despotic prison guard.  The ego is necessary for navigating material reality as a separate physical entity.  How well your experience goes in living is a direct result of the emotional health of your ego structure.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19310855 - 12/22/13 07:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
but I want to point out that this guy is well off financially.




How do you know? Just wondering

He has published books, and gives meetings to a few dozen people every now & then, but i can't see him rolling in the cash, not enough people are into his message for that

Quote:

Icelander said:
Once I made it to financial security it was much easier to tell myself and others to just relax and float downstream.




It was easier to say it, but any easier to do it?
Surely, according to your theory, as your financially comfortable now, its easier to put into practice? I don't get that impression from your posts that it's become easier for you

I like the Lion analogy tho




Yeah it's easier to do it for me now that I'm financially secure. :thumbup:  Doesn't mean I don't have other issues of course. . And I could tell by his clothes and his surroundings that he's very comfortable.  He's doing just fine. I think he want's to do better however.  That may be a difference between him and me.  I'm pretty satisfied to stay right where I am.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #19311296 - 12/22/13 10:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I definitely hear the logic about not getting caught in the rat race, not having the business mind with all of life.

I have a question for those of you who are very much in this side of the persuasion - do you still have any desire to help people?

I think there is a very wide gap between the person who seeks enlightenment for the benefit of himself, and the bodisattvah who seeks enlightenment for the benefit of all, and even puts off enlightenment until all others are enlightened.  If you are of the more bodhisattvah mind, how can you help people efficiently without positive aspects (the drive and intellect) of the business person?

~


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19311362 - 12/22/13 10:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
You guys are misunderstanding this, it has absolutely nothing to with finances. The "the business man" is the ego. The ego always wants to do business with reality. It is never satisfied. The ego always thinks it can get soemthing to make it satisfied, whether its money, a girlfriend, a new house, a nice car, or enligtenment.

But in reality, its the ego thats in the way of the wholeness its so desires, so a death must happen. I am not enligthened, but I know this to be true because many layers of my ego have fallen away and so I can see how it operates in myself and it is very easy to see that it is never satisfied and it never will be satisfied for very long by getting something. I used to believe in the ego and thought I could get happy by getting things. But it never worked. No thing that I ever got ever made me happy for very long at all. The only thing that my ego is still thinks could make it happy is a perfect girlfriend, but people tell me this too is a delusion and relationships are not automatic happiness. If that is true then the ego is completely delusional. 


its those moments when I see my ego for what it is, that is when I am peaceful. That is when I feel my inner child has returned and I am free and innocent again.

Hes not saying dont make moeny or dont worry about your finances. That has absolutely nothing to do with this message and he is not even like the gurus who say that its hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The enligteneed state is very similar to the state of a small child who looks at the world and doesnt want anything from it. as long as its with its motehr and has food, all is right with the world. Now think how unlike adults that is. How many adults do you know who are completely satisfied with their lives whenever their most basic physical needs are met? No, adults want all sorts of other things which they dont really need.

I dont know about you guys but I have very clear memories of my childhood and I can remember being in this state of peaceful innocence. This is what I am trying to get back to.





I think you really misunderstand the value of an ego.  Just try living without one.  The problem is how the ego operates. Is it healthy and not fear driven to the extent that it tries to run the whole of the personality or is it more relaxed easy going?  As in the concept of the helpful and watchful guardian that we have turned into a despotic prison guard.  The ego is necessary for navigating material reality as a separate physical entity.  How well your experience goes in living is a direct result of the emotional health of your ego structure.




The ego has no value. It is completely useless. You are pulling the old bait and switch, replace the ego with the personality and sense of identity and point out how valuable and necessary those are. Yes, one could call those the ego but that is not what Tony Parsons or Ramana Maharshi is saying must me eliminated when they say the ego must be eliminated. Its the identification with those things, the feeling that that is you are, a limited personality structure trapped in an ape like material body. Leaving this behind does not destroy your personality, your personality is hard wired into your brain, it ain't going anywhere anytime soon but it is possible to cease identification with it. I have had many such experiences, especially around the time when I first started smoking marijuana Id get a lot of dearealization and depersonalization so for instance id be driving down the road and all of a sudden I wouldn't be. The car would still be there and my body would still be in it and my mind would still be there awake and alert, controlling the car, watching for traffic, etc only there was no longer any sense that "I" played any part in this whatsoever. I was simply the witness of it. This is called the "witnessing state", it is still far from liberation but from this state its quite obvious how useless the ego is and how much better off one is without it. It serves absolutely no function other than to screw things up. The mind and personality functions perfectly normally without it.

My theory is that the ego is training wheels for the mind. It helps a child form a separate identity for itself, which is necessary for survival in the world. But once this process is complete, the ego should be discarded. Once you understandf how to care for your body, there is no reason for the ego anymore. Unfortunately with the very low state of consciousness found on this planet, most people are keeping their egos into adulthood and beyond and many people are seeking to inflate and glorify them rather than surrender them.

This is why the Bible goes on and on about how the proud and haughty shall be brought to shame, while the meek and humble will inherit the earth. The proud are dspending their whole lives seekign to validate something which does not exist, something which has no more reality than a shadow.

Quote:

How well your experience goes in living is a direct result of the emotional health of your ego structure.





Yes of course, so one can spend their whole life trying to improve their ego or one can obtain liberation and cease worrying about it. After liberation, the ego will automatically heal.


Edited by Deviate (12/22/13 10:50 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19311435 - 12/22/13 11:02 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BoulderMushrooms said:
I definitely hear the logic about not getting caught in the rat race, not having the business mind with all of life.

I have a question for those of you who are very much in this side of the persuasion - do you still have any desire to help people?

I think there is a very wide gap between the person who seeks enlightenment for the benefit of himself, and the bodisattvah who seeks enlightenment for the benefit of all, and even puts off enlightenment until all others are enlightened.  If you are of the more bodhisattvah mind, how can you help people efficiently without positive aspects (the drive and intellect) of the business person?

~




I love helping people.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19311442 - 12/22/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

This is why the Bible goes on and on about how the proud and haughty shall be brought to shame

" I am a jealous god" 

:lol:

Believe whatever you like.  Consider it my Xmas gift to you. :nicesmile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19311448 - 12/22/13 11:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
The ego has no value. It is completely useless.



Nothing wrong with the "ego."  Nothing to escape there.  Doctrines that proclaim otherwise are full of shit.  Buddhists who proclaim otherwise are full of shit.

Your ego -- your sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility -- is precisely what brings you to forums and discussions like this one.  If you were some cosmically perfect wishy-washy ego-less thing, you'd be boring.  No one would want to listen to you or go to the movies with you.

We have a sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility because those "senses" serve biological / evolutionary purposes.  There is no cosmic trickster burdening us with attributes that aren't useful to us. 

All in my opinion.


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: all this beauty]
    #19311727 - 12/22/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Aye, much agreement with the recent posts, especially that there is nothing inherently wrong with the ego - its the ONLY thing that allows us to operate in this world, or even exist in this world at all, without completely dissolving into the oneness/nothingness. 


Most of all I agree with Icelander - Believe whatever you want.  Thanks for the Christmas gift!!!! :smile:  Nobody's argument is going to make us change our opinion unless we are open to that anyways.

~


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19311901 - 12/22/13 01:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I just hope that's not all you're getting. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19312186 - 12/22/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Me too:)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19314725 - 12/23/13 04:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BoulderMushrooms said:
Aye, much agreement with the recent posts, especially that there is nothing inherently wrong with the ego - its the ONLY thing that allows us to operate in this world, or even exist in this world at all, without completely dissolving into the oneness/nothingness. 


Most of all I agree with Icelander - Believe whatever you want.  Thanks for the Christmas gift!!!! :smile:  Nobody's argument is going to make us change our opinion unless we are open to that anyways.

~




Ok this is getting annoying. Define your terms. It is useless to say there is nothing wrong with ego without defining what you mean by ego.

this sums up my thoughts on the matter

Plain Selfrealization is the death of the small self that was produced by identification with something that is not Self. But the personality does not vanish, it's just not you anymore. Some say the ego has to go away; that is a matter of definition: if you maintain the personality is the ego, then the ego will remain, if you maintain the ego is the sense of I (I-ness), then yes, ego will vanish.

If you maintain there is nothing wrong with misidentification, it is simply because you haven't suffered enough yet. Some people temporarily enjoy the sense of ego but after your ego has caused you years and years of untold suffering and failure after failure at everything you try, you begin to wonder if perhaps there isn't a better way to be. That is when you discover the spiritual path, the elimination of the misindenfication which impedes smooth functioning of the organism.

If your ego isn't causing you any problems, then have fun being an ego. Remember Jesus said that he came into the world for the sinners, not the righteous. If you can function fine and do what is right and you are happy, you dont need to trouble yourself with endless spiritual seeking. But if you are a total fuck up like me like, its a completely different story.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: all this beauty]
    #19314745 - 12/23/13 05:02 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
The ego has no value. It is completely useless.



Nothing wrong with the "ego."  Nothing to escape there.  Doctrines that proclaim otherwise are full of shit.  Buddhists who proclaim otherwise are full of shit.

Your ego -- your sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility -- is precisely what brings you to forums and discussions like this one.  If you were some cosmically perfect wishy-washy ego-less thing, you'd be boring.  No one would want to listen to you or go to the movies with you.

We have a sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility because those "senses" serve biological / evolutionary purposes.  There is no cosmic trickster burdening us with attributes that aren't useful to us. 

All in my opinion.




No one wants to listen to me or go to the movies with me anyway. I am a social misfit. 

You are right that our sense of separateness serves an evolutionary purpose but you are wrong in thinking that means that I am somehow wrong for wanting to move beyond it. Crawling serves a biological purpose, you are essentially saying that walking is boring and adults should crawl their whole lives.

THere are some people who enjoy their egos, there are even some very spiritual people (like Timothy Leary) who did not seem particularly gung ho about completely getting rid of their egos. I am not one of those people.

What it comes down to is how much you have suffered. The Buddha went beyond ego not because he wanted to get people to go to the movies with him, but because he sought an end to suffering. I dont want to suffer anymore. I dont care about going to the movies or posting on forums or feeling superior or whatever positive things you think the ego brings. With those things comes such intense suffering that it makes me want to blow my brains out. ALl this suffering and wanting to blow my brains out is a direct result of my ego. Why would you want me to keep something that causes me so much pain?

The egoic mode of consciousness is infantile. Its an incredibly limiting concept that is like walking with blinders on. There is nothing inherently wrong with it of course (unless you consider the creation of suffering inherently wrong) but it stands in the way of the evolution of consciousness. Consciousness is capable of being expanded well beyond the simplistic self centered ego mode that is popular on earth today. DO you disagree and if not why are you opposed to the expansion of consciusness?

its funny how on the spirituality and myscticism forum I receive so much discouragement from actually following my path of mysticism.


Edited by Deviate (12/23/13 05:06 AM)


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19314754 - 12/23/13 05:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

  But if you are a total fuck up like me like, its a completely different story.



I'm sorry you consider yourself that way.:sad:  I'm far from totally enamored of my life and the progress I've made but I still can see how that in several ways I've done well and am a pretty cool guy in spite of all of that.  Best to take a balanced view on these things imo. :nicesmile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19314767 - 12/23/13 05:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That is a balanced view if we go by the enjoyment I get from life vs the enjoyment I could get if I made wiser decisions. I have lived a life of horrible, intense suffering all due to my own stupid decisions which almost always serve to compound and worsen my suffering. Even when I know better my lack of self control causes to make more decisions which bring down more suffering on my self.

Now when I see through the illusion of the ego, all of this recedes away and my natural intelligence is free to work and I am often astounded at what comes out.

Now how can you guys fault me for wanting to stop suppressing my natural intelligence?

See, naturally I am a very kind, compassionate, intelligent, free thinking, loyal, unique, extremely brave individual.

WIth my ego I am a stupid,lazy cowardly selfish wretch. How does it not make sense to get rid of that?


Edited by Deviate (12/23/13 05:15 AM)


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19314787 - 12/23/13 05:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Because imo as humans we are always going to be a mix of those things.  Nature is always a mix of things.  IMO much of your suffering is in your inability to accept this.  We are all very flawed. We all suffer, greatly at times, there are joys to be experienced in spite of this.  And that my friend is life 101.  You don't move on until you grokk that in fullness.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19314835 - 12/23/13 05:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Move on to where? It seems like thats what I have already been doing, suffering greatly with intermittent bouts of joy and clarity.

If you think much of my suffering is due to my inability to accept this, that means it is an ego problem. Isn't that what I have been saying? my suffering is due to my ego?

You see, non acceptance is the nature of ego. If you can truly accept everything as it is, your ego collapses. The ego must have something to chase after, it must be dissatisfied in some way, that is what it feeds off. Take this away from it and it starves to death.


Edited by Deviate (12/23/13 05:54 AM)


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19314861 - 12/23/13 06:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Move on to where?

Move on to acceptance of your state as a human animal and live it without expecting more.

Yes ego can be problematical but that's the nature of the beast.  You will, imo, and are imo, killing your life by expecting to become ego free.  But maybe I'm wrong or maybe that's your path. The path of almost total suffering.  Nature does stuff like that.:shrug:  I seem to have walked that path enough to know it well. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19314882 - 12/23/13 06:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Expecting to become ego free is just another trick of the ego, which as I explained is never satisfied and always needs something to strive for in order to maintain itself, in this case it strives to become ego free. I mean were you paying any attention at all? thats what this thread is about. The ego dresses up as a hitman and offers to kill the ego.

You seem to be implying that I could accept everything at it is while at the same time maintain my ego. That is absurd. When I read your post, I tried to accept myself just as I am. Instantly I felt some of my ego fall away until I encountered resistence (non acceptance). Do you see? I can't have my cake and eat it too. I cant have both happiness and my ego. The more there is of one, the less there is of the other.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19314895 - 12/23/13 06:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That's odd. I have a strong ego and am often happy and content.  Maybe we are  playing different games.  Best of luck with yours.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19314907 - 12/23/13 06:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well I have chronic physical pain issues that make 100% complete liberation my only hope of ever experiencing something beyond suffering.

We are indeed playing different games. If you are not seeking liberation, life is very different.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19314918 - 12/23/13 06:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I've been living with chronic physical pain for over 20 years now.  I'm pretty used to it believe it or not. Plus a lifetime of emotional pain.  The Kratom helps a lot and I'm not above getting help from anywhere I can find it.  My friends are concerned/disapprove at times but they don't live in here with me.  I'll take full responsibility for the consequences.  I'm already addicted to it but that addiction pales in comparison to the parm meds they'd put me on.

I used to seek liberation but that made me even more miserable than I am today.  Surrender to life has brought me my best relief.  Hardly perfect though. :haha:


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19314920 - 12/23/13 06:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You know, this is like arriving at prison with 3 life sentences. Some of the guys I meet tell me "hey, we think we have found a way to escape. You want in?" and then guys like you tell me "hey it ain't so bad in here. Yeah, I know that longing for freedom you talk about, but that's a pipe dream. Just settle into prison life. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. You get three meals a day and a bunk bed to sleep in. What more could you ask for?"

I am one of those rare ones that is going to try to escape no matter what and risk everything to do it.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19314928 - 12/23/13 06:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I never said it ain't so bad in here.  It's hellish much of the time and at best tolerable the rest with a rare moment of beauty.  I'm just saying trying to escape makes it worse imo.  Don't misunderstand me.  I know how you feel.

The real freedom imo is the courage to kill oneself. :wink:  Bet you aren't up for that one. :satansmoking:


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19314960 - 12/23/13 06:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yes trying to escape can make it worse but not if you succeed. I have already gotten several layers of my ego to fall away. Why should I stop here? Why not push this as far as I can? If after 10 years I feel like i am making no further progress toward escaping, maybe I will give up then, but it would seem quite silly to give up now just because you couldn't find your way out. Actually I already gave up once and my life kept on going downhill, getting worse and worse, until I decided Id better go back to spiritual seeking.

It all depends on who you want to listen to. I am inspired by people like Buddha and Jesus and Ramana Maharshi who say that there is a way out and that its worth all the suffering in the universe to get there.

At the same time, I dont have much else to live for. The nice thing about spiritual seeking is that its like a little video game that you can play with yourself anywhere at any time. Its a mobile source of both frustration and entertainment, just like my gameboy was when I was a kid. Its really a lot like playing super mario bros.

I dont even have any money to buy kratom, I have no job, no motivation, barely enough food, health issues, no girlfriend, no friends, etc. What else am I gonna do?


Edited by Deviate (12/23/13 06:42 AM)


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19314970 - 12/23/13 06:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

OK then go for it.  Why not if what you say is true?  Report back so others may learn from your experiences if you are that type.

I'm basing my best guess on two things.  My personal experience and what I see out in the world and in other people I have known. 

Seriously, best of luck.  I feel very sad you are suffering so. I don't wish that on any living thing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19314976 - 12/23/13 06:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:


I dont even have any money to buy kratom, I have no job, no motivation, barely enough food, health issues, no girlfriend, no friends, etc. What else am I gonna do?





What if most of your problems evaporated if you figured this shit out?  Perhaps you'd have new set of problems, but they might be infinitely better problems to have.  Maybe the enlightenment trip is distracting you from what actually matters at this point in time.  These aren't overly materialistic goals, this isn't fast money, cars, bling...  Just good health, a job, and a decent lady friend you like and are sexually attracted to.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19314986 - 12/23/13 06:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That could be of course.  The fact that I have money makes living with some of this other shit a fuck of a lot easier. In fact if I didn't have any money I'd fucking off myself tomorrow most likely. (Well after my Kratom stash ran out of course.):laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19314988 - 12/23/13 06:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I cant promise Ill report back, remember the hidden truth about life is that there is no hidden truth. so what am I going to have to report?

I can come up with all sorts of ways to justify spiritual seeking but the truth is I cant stop. Once you get to a certain point on the path, there is no turning back. For instance, I have tried to stop (although my trying to stop was actually out of the hope that stopping seeking would help me get enlightenment) and i was not able to. Its just like trying to accept things as they are. The trying itself is a form of non acceptance (if you truly accepted things, you wouldnt need to try) so then you try not to try and so on. Spiritual seeking is the exact same. Its a bunch of ego noise. It has to burn itself out, or at least that is my hope. But once youve set the ball in motion and it rolls past a certain point, you no longer have the option to turn around and go back. I am stuck doing this now for better or worse.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19314990 - 12/23/13 06:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

One thing that might help also is to develop a cosmic sense of absurd humor about yourself and this existence. That one thing has helped me about as much as anything else.  I never see you get silly here. :sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19315038 - 12/23/13 07:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That could be of course.  The fact that I have money makes living with some of this other shit a fuck of a lot easier. In fact if I didn't have any money I'd fucking off myself tomorrow most likely. (Well after my Kratom stash ran out of course.):D




I just wish there was an amendment to the Bible that included all the shit you need before even possibly conceivably making room for 'God'..."Fuck, my back hurts!  No, no, I don't need Jesus, I need some Kratom"... "Oh fuck, I don't have any money!  Nah, I don't need God, I need a job to buy some Kratom".... "Okay, my back doesn't hurt and my house isn't in foreclosure, maybe I'll ponder the Uverse and see how that goes."


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19315049 - 12/23/13 07:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19315061 - 12/23/13 07:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
One thing that might help also is to develop a cosmic sense of absurd humor about yourself and this existence. That one thing has helped me about as much as anything else.  I never see you get silly here. :sad:





Well I have a very serious personality. I am certainly not incapable of laughing at myself or the absurdity of life and all that, I mean you know that one of the things I love about Christianity is the absurdity of it. For example, I was just reading from the book of Jeremiah the part where God talks about how he lead the Israelites out of Egypt but then on several occasions he became angry with them in the dessert and would have killed them all had he not be concerned about his namesake. I mean, how would it look if he lured the Israelites out into the dessert and then killed them all there? Who would want to worship a god like that? And yet that's apparently what he would have done had he not be super concerned about his reputation and how this would look to other nations (and the Bible is very clear about this in multiple places).

Now I find this absolutely hilarious and I love the fact that we go and worship this very same god with a straight face every Sunday (at least he hasn't killed us yet, right?). These are the sorts of absurdities that I love about life. But they take a lot of explaining, its not something that lends itself to playful joking around.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19315217 - 12/23/13 08:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I was just reading from the book of Jeremiah the part where God talks about how he lead the Israelites out of Egypt but then on several occasions he became angry with them in the dessert and would have killed them all had he not be concerned about his namesake. I mean, how would it look if he lured the Israelites out into the dessert and then killed them all there




I can just see God luring the Israelites like ants with a piece of Baklava :rofl:, but somehow I think you meant desert.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19315313 - 12/23/13 09:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Because imo as humans we are always going to be a mix of those things.  Nature is always a mix of things.  IMO much of your suffering is in your inability to accept this.  We are all very flawed. We all suffer, greatly at times, there are joys to be experienced in spite of this.  And that my friend is life 101.  You don't move on until you grokk that in fullness.



^^ This.

Quote:

Deviate said:
its funny how on the spirituality and myscticism forum I receive so much discouragement from actually following my path of mysticism.



I don't think that's what people are doing here.  People are engaging and challenging you.  The serious posters are doing it civilly as well.

In my opinion, you need (we all need) realistic expectations and goals -- and "transcending the ego" is not one of them.  That's why I'm not enamored by much of Eastern mystical doctrine.  Much of it places unreasonable and unnecessary burdens on people and tends to disempower them by presenting them as illusory, deluded, and incomplete.

You're a lot less fucked up than you think you are, Deviate. 

Truly, dyed-in-the-wool, fucked up people don't read and post in "spirituality and mysticism" internet forums.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19315336 - 12/23/13 09:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
One thing that might help also is to develop a cosmic sense of absurd humor about yourself and this existence. That one thing has helped me about as much as anything else.  I never see you get silly here. :sad:





Well I have a very serious personality. I am certainly not incapable of laughing at myself or the absurdity of life and all that, I mean you know that one of the things I love about Christianity is the absurdity of it. For example, I was just reading from the book of Jeremiah the part where God talks about how he lead the Israelites out of Egypt but then on several occasions he became angry with them in the dessert and would have killed them all had he not be concerned about his namesake. I mean, how would it look if he lured the Israelites out into the dessert and then killed them all there? Who would want to worship a god like that? And yet that's apparently what he would have done had he not be super concerned about his reputation and how this would look to other nations (and the Bible is very clear about this in multiple places).

Now I find this absolutely hilarious and I love the fact that we go and worship this very same god with a straight face every Sunday (at least he hasn't killed us yet, right?). These are the sorts of absurdities that I love about life. But they take a lot of explaining, its not something that lends itself to playful joking around.





That truly is absurd. Just remember that everything is like that and you'll be on your way. 

Seriously I don't know how I could go on if I didn't laugh all day long. 

You seem to have gotten a very short stick in the game of life. :sad:  It's amazing you do as well as you do.  Best of luck.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19315487 - 12/23/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

I was just reading from the book of Jeremiah the part where God talks about how he lead the Israelites out of Egypt but then on several occasions he became angry with them in the dessert and would have killed them all had he not be concerned about his namesake. I mean, how would it look if he lured the Israelites out into the dessert and then killed them all there




I can just see God luring the Israelites like ants with a piece of Baklava :rofl:, but somehow I think you meant desert.




:rofl:

baklawa :drooling:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: all this beauty]
    #19315644 - 12/23/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
The ego has no value. It is completely useless.



Nothing wrong with the "ego."  Nothing to escape there.  Doctrines that proclaim otherwise are full of shit.  Buddhists who proclaim otherwise are full of shit.

Your ego -- your sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility -- is precisely what brings you to forums and discussions like this one.  If you were some cosmically perfect wishy-washy ego-less thing, you'd be boring.  No one would want to listen to you or go to the movies with you.

We have a sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility because those "senses" serve biological / evolutionary purposes.  There is no cosmic trickster burdening us with attributes that aren't useful to us. 

All in my opinion.




:awebig: :thumbup:


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19315656 - 12/23/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Deviate said:


I dont even have any money to buy kratom, I have no job, no motivation, barely enough food, health issues, no girlfriend, no friends, etc. What else am I gonna do?





What if most of your problems evaporated if you figured this shit out?  Perhaps you'd have new set of problems, but they might be infinitely better problems to have.  Maybe the enlightenment trip is distracting you from what actually matters at this point in time.  These aren't overly materialistic goals, this isn't fast money, cars, bling...  Just good health, a job, and a decent lady friend you like and are sexually attracted to.




I agree.  Without a good foundation one cannot build up to the heavens--or in alternate metaphysical lingo, strengthen the root chakra before attempting to open up the crown.  :thumbup:


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: all this beauty]
    #19318791 - 12/23/13 10:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Because imo as humans we are always going to be a mix of those things.  Nature is always a mix of things.  IMO much of your suffering is in your inability to accept this.  We are all very flawed. We all suffer, greatly at times, there are joys to be experienced in spite of this.  And that my friend is life 101.  You don't move on until you grokk that in fullness.



^^ This.

Quote:

Deviate said:
its funny how on the spirituality and myscticism forum I receive so much discouragement from actually following my path of mysticism.



I don't think that's what people are doing here.  People are engaging and challenging you.  The serious posters are doing it civilly as well.

In my opinion, you need (we all need) realistic expectations and goals -- and "transcending the ego" is not one of them.  That's why I'm not enamored by much of Eastern mystical doctrine.  Much of it places unreasonable and unnecessary burdens on people and tends to disempower them by presenting them as illusory, deluded, and incomplete.

You're a lot less fucked up than you think you are, Deviate. 

Truly, dyed-in-the-wool, fucked up people don't read and post in "spirituality and mysticism" internet forums.






The ego isn't real. Those we see this will never think that transcending the ego is not a realistic goal, while at the same time they will always think that transcending the ego is an unrealistic goal because there is no ego to transcend.

Enlightenment is not some goal that is going to happen in the future, its just seeing clearly what is already here. Its not some unrealistic goal, its just being what we are and the more I settle into my natural state of being, the better I understand myself. Sometimes it brings pain, as I confront things which I had been suppressing back when I wasnt concerned with enlightenment. Other times it brings peace and joy.

I have already posted about how the moment you turn enlightenment into a goal, like "transcending the ego" it becomes impossible because you have relegated it to the realm of thought and concepts and then you will not be happy until you have "transcended the ego" (whatever that means).

Maybe the best way to explain what I am doing here is this. Enlightenment is about remembering what you were like before you adopted all these strange beliefs that society imposed on you, all the ideas that you should be this way and shouldnt be that way, that you must find enlightenment, that you must do this or that, etc etc. When you were a young child, you somehow existed without any of these ideas.

Now if you can remember what that was like and view it in contrast to your society imposed mental state, in my experience it is a revelation. So my spiritual practice consists of recalling what life was before I let society tell me what life was.

I really dont see how thats unrealistic or why you want to challenge me on it. I am afraid that youre never going to convince me that I am better off believing in societies version of life, or your version of life instead of my own.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19319565 - 12/24/13 02:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think that's true for all of us. We all prefer our own hell/heaven to another's. :hellfire:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19319917 - 12/24/13 07:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think that's true for all of us. We all prefer our own hell/heaven to another's. :hellfire:





Well yes of course we prefer our own because we can make it just how we like it. Its like furnishing a room. Others can give you very good ideas about how to furnish a room but ultimately you would be doing yourself a disservice if you were to furnish a room according how others advised you against your own preferences for the room.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #19319948 - 12/24/13 07:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think when somebody says their personality was less rigid as a child,  it's not because they had yet to be sold on strange beliefs like "transcending the ego".  Many children have already been sold way stranger beliefs, like Christ and Santa, yet aren't overwhelmingly emotionally burdened.  I think it has more to do with the fact that most of these children primarily use their ego to make inconsequential decisions, like whether to play make believe in the woods or practice magic tricks.  Their caretakers are shielding them from the major executive decisions life requires to ensure survival, like finding shelter and food, and also tending to them when they're in pain or had a scary dream, etc. An environment has been created for them where their personality is nurtured. 

As an adult, you have to create that environment for yourself, and if you have some thought disorder where you're making poor decisions that have led you to a decade of drug abuse, no motivation, no money, no job, health problems,  'transcending your ego' is nothing more than escapism, you want to restructure the damned ego as to find some solutions to these basic survival problems that are making you miserable.  There is no memorable escape route back to your carefree childlike nature when there's a negative wind chill and you have nowhere to sleep at night, only developing the capacity to have good ideas and making the right decisions would get you out of such a mess.

Other people, on the other hand, have thinking faculties and decision making capabilities that have brought them reasonable success on a material level, yet are still a neurotic mess...



I think it's no coincidence that Harvard psychologists, Leary/Alpert or renowned authors like Huxley talk about transcending ego...  Think about their lives comparatively, a college professor is exactly the type of person that has his material needs met, but needs to let all the shit that truly doesn't matter slide and get blissed.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19320118 - 12/24/13 08:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
its funny how on the spirituality and myscticism forum I receive so much discouragement from actually following my path of mysticism.




Always puzzles me that too! :thumbup:


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Duncan Rowhl] * 1
    #19320217 - 12/24/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Not the whole of his path imo. He get's encouragement for a large part of what he's heading for.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19324863 - 12/25/13 08:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I think when somebody says their personality was less rigid as a child,  it's not because they had yet to be sold on strange beliefs like "transcending the ego".  Many children have already been sold way stranger beliefs, like Christ and Santa, yet aren't overwhelmingly emotionally burdened.  I think it has more to do with the fact that most of these children primarily use their ego to make inconsequential decisions, like whether to play make believe in the woods or practice magic tricks.  Their caretakers are shielding them from the major executive decisions life requires to ensure survival, like finding shelter and food, and also tending to them when they're in pain or had a scary dream, etc. An environment has been created for them where their personality is nurtured. 




No, this is has nothing to do what what I am talking about. It's not the state ignorant carefree bliss of childhood that I am seeking, that's only half the coin. The other half is being as wise as a serpent. The similarity to a child lies in the fact that a young child has nothing on his mind, he doesnt perceive life through the colored glasses of all his past trauma because he hasnt had much trauma yet. The enlightened consciousness perceives with the same child like innocence only it also possesses all the wisdom that comes through suffering.

Quote:


As an adult, you have to create that environment for yourself, and if you have some thought disorder where you're making poor decisions that have led you to a decade of drug abuse, no motivation, no money, no job, health problems,  'transcending your ego' is nothing more than escapism, you want to restructure the damned ego as to find some solutions to these basic survival problems that are making you miserable.  There is no memorable escape route back to your carefree childlike nature when there's a negative wind chill and you have nowhere to sleep at night, only developing the capacity to have good ideas and making the right decisions would get you out of such a mess.




It's not escapism, awakening is the total opposite of escapism, it's bravely facing all your fears , past traumas and other issues so that healing can take place. The awakened state is not divorced from the here and now, so you can never get there by escaping, in fact you cannot get there through any form of coming or going. You just realize that this is what is longed for. What is longed for is right here, right now, always has been and always will be.

One you realize this, it will be unmistakable and you will naturally begin working to make this realization steady. There is simply no turning back when the process begins. I have given up believing I have any choice in this, it is not something I am doing, it is something that is happening. My consciousness is simply expanding from a very painful contracted form (that got into lots a lot trouble), to a much more open, expanded form, from which I see solutions rather than problems.


Quote:


Other people, on the other hand, have thinking faculties and decision making capabilities that have brought them reasonable success on a material level, yet are still a neurotic mess...



I think it's no coincidence that Harvard psychologists, Leary/Alpert or renowned authors like Huxley talk about transcending ego...  Think about their lives comparatively, a college professor is exactly the type of person that has his material needs met, but needs to let all the shit that truly doesn't matter slide and get blissed.









If you are implying that one must be emotionally healthy or having their physical needs met before they can awaken, you are completely wrong. Of course I pursue healing whenever I can find it but the highest level of healing is understanding one's true nature, which is awakening. Often times one must go through great pain before they can arrive at this state. In fact as far as I know, Timothy Learly never had much interest in pursuing liberation. He was a genius and a very spiritually evolved person (after his psychedelic use) but I dont think he was fully enlightened. His ego simply did not cause him the kind of problems my ego has caused me, so he didn't see it as necessary to get rid of it completely. Richard ALpert ont he other hand, was more like me. He was interested in true liberation.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19324899 - 12/25/13 09:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



What if most of your problems evaporated if you figured this shit out?




Thats a joke if I ever heard one. First of all, I spent nearly three decades trying to figure all this shit out and never even came close. Second of all I have had money, cars, friends, a girl (though not the one I really wanted) before and I was never even close to satisfied by any of them. Not even close.

 
Quote:

Perhaps you'd have new set of problems, but they might be infinitely better problems to have.  Maybe the enlightenment trip is distracting you from what actually matters at this point in time.  These aren't overly materialistic goals, this isn't fast money, cars, bling...  Just good health, a job, and a decent lady friend you like and are sexually attracted to.




You don't understand. If I had any control over those things, don't you think I would exercise it? My health is the main problem. Without it, I cannot work, cannot earn money, etc. I can't magically fix my health, so what does that mean? It means the only thing I can do is work on improving my ability to cope with pain and that way I can get the most out of this painful weakened body and hopefully build some kind of life with that seems worthwhile with the limited resources I have.

Now I spent the past several years working and trying to escape the pain in my body through drug abuse. That makes working rather pointless because all  the money I earn goes to drugs. So thats when I decided I would try to extend my ability to cope with pain rather than abuse drugs all the time. I believe the best way to cope with pain is liberation. If you know a better way, I would certainly be open trying it.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher]
    #19324916 - 12/25/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Deviate said:


I dont even have any money to buy kratom, I have no job, no motivation, barely enough food, health issues, no girlfriend, no friends, etc. What else am I gonna do?





What if most of your problems evaporated if you figured this shit out?  Perhaps you'd have new set of problems, but they might be infinitely better problems to have.  Maybe the enlightenment trip is distracting you from what actually matters at this point in time.  These aren't overly materialistic goals, this isn't fast money, cars, bling...  Just good health, a job, and a decent lady friend you like and are sexually attracted to.




I agree.  Without a good foundation one cannot build up to the heavens--or in alternate metaphysical lingo, strengthen the root chakra before attempting to open up the crown.  :thumbup:




That's all part of the story that liberation frees one from. Its actually not necesary to do anything prior to liberation because there is nothing besides liberation.  You dont need to go to church, you dont need to meditate or pray, you dont need to work on opening your chakras, believing that you must do something, anything at all, is what prevents you from seeing that there is nothing you need to do.

Read the quote in your sig. The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth. If you think you need to "strengthen your root chakra" before you can realize there ultimate truth, then that would imply that the ultimate truth is something new that can be gained. But it is not new. Thats the secret. Theres nothing to get, you are already it. It's this.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19325176 - 12/25/13 11:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think you have me confused with Icelander as that quote's from his signature.

At any rate--great, so there's nothing to be gained.  Congratulations, you can stop seeking now!  There, I just saved you the effort of a couple thousand more Shroomery posts/Hail Mary's/insert whatever spiritual&mystical practices you employ.  :grin:


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher]
    #19325559 - 12/25/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well, no, you didn't save me anything. The seeking energy will continue until it exhausts itself. One simply must learn to stop feeding it and then it will begin to dissipate.

This is what has happened in me. All this crazy seeking I have been doing was a massive experimentation with energy and it has ended in a tremendous release.  At times the ego steps in and says "hey wait a minute, what has happened me here? Let me take control back" and that is very painful. But I have made the decision to see this through and not go back to feeding the ego.

I now understand why this can't be brought about before one is ready. You wouldn't want it. I have lost parts of myself, the loss of which I am currently mourning, but parts which I would have not have had the strength to give up until recently.

The desire to be more enlightened than I am is not even troubling me at this moment because I realize that would entail further surrender of self.

I guess I've found what I have been looking for all this time. Now the question is, can I handle it? Or am I going to continue to cling to my familiar prison for no reason other than that its familiar and this is unknown.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #19327009 - 12/25/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Once a seeker always a seeker.  I certainly haven't been able to quit even though I know it's bad for my health. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19327117 - 12/25/13 10:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well, the thing about Richard Alpert is that he came from a wealthy background and banked as a Harvard professor, so he could actually afford to drop out and bum around India following his bliss. 

I don't understand your specific situation, but for most of us, we need money because without it can't pay our rent/mortage and would become homeless... If you are in such immense chronic pain that you can't work, I personally think it would be wise to try to get on social security disability and medicare, and then get medical help, maybe go to a pain management clinic and ultimately some sort of vocational rehabilitation agency that can help you find a job that you are capable of doing with your disability and get back up on your feet.  Your physical and psychological health can always tank further, so it's wise to have money to be able to have healthy food, medicine, and shelter...  There is no rock bottom, neglecting your body can make things much, much worse than they already are, and most people just aren't that into their pain and accept that on some level, they are a body. 

I'm not sure how you're getting by now, but if I was in your situation and was asking my family for help, I suppose my mom would likely help me, but things would be pretty tense in her household if I was sponging off her pursuing liberation as opposed to working towards becoming an autonomous adult.  I don't think I'd be able to enlightenment away my conscience if other people were getting the short end of the stick because of me, and would probably be that much more miserable for trying to do so.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19327134 - 12/25/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There isnt anything to seek though. I dont know what I am going to do with the rest of my life now. Its like, I got so into the seeking business that it gave me something to do, I expalained to you how even it was like a portable game boy. Now what am I going to do?

What I realized was this, that God can manifest as either the enlightenedf state or the ignorant state.

Now the spiritual seeker is someone who had some glimpse of the enlightened state but did not realize that both the enlightened state and the ignorant state are within him, so he went off to seek the enlightened state. Enlightenment is realizing there is no and never was any ignorance. Its all just God playing hide and seek with himself. He hides as everything and he can be tough to find because we are so conditioned to look for him as something.

I still feel a sense of separation from God but I just cant view it in the same way anymore. Its too clear to me that seeking union is only reinforcing separation at this point. So now I just dont know what to do with myself or the rest of my life. Could it ever look more meanignless than it does right now?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19327149 - 12/25/13 10:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19327177 - 12/25/13 10:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

I think you really misunderstand the value of an ego.  Just try living without one.  The problem is how the ego operates. Is it healthy and not fear driven to the extent that it tries to run the whole of the personality or is it more relaxed easy going?  As in the concept of the helpful and watchful guardian that we have turned into a despotic prison guard.  The ego is necessary for navigating material reality as a separate physical entity.  How well your experience goes in living is a direct result of the emotional health of your ego structure.




Forgot to give this a :thumbup:, incredibly lucid post.

You are the jail, the prisoner, and the guard.  I guess all is one :haha:



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19327271 - 12/25/13 11:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.




A few quick observations:

1. If you have (or have had) an experience of insight, you'll know it.  Possibly not right away, since part of what you'd expect would be a significant time spent integrating that perspective into the stream of your otherwise ordinary experience.  But it will be clear, like a first experience of love, before which you wondered "will it ever happen to me?" and "what is is really like" and after which your own experience and those of others, along with the language that describes them, all make sense.

2. If you're not yet certain, I wouldn't be so sure about giving up spiritual exercises.  It's true that insight may come in spite of, rather than as a result of, such exercises, but in practical terms most of the people offering that particular observation in fact spent years in practice before the ripening of insight.  Possibly they just needed to wear themselves out, and correlation doesn't equal causation, but by the same token such practices may be necessary or at least helpful.  Be cautious about what you're discarding.

3.  Even after an experience of insight, you'll wake up with the same body and mind, complete with ego, foibles, bunions, old scars (emotional and physical) and so on.  It happens that, in addition to producing insight, such practices as the eightfold path are very helpful as palliatives for the myriad conditions comprised and/or caused by daily life.  Another reason to continue them.

4.  The joy of bhakti need not disappear.  If anything, it should deepen, as you recognize in each experience the mystery of existence.

Again, best of luck to you.


--------------------
Come, come, whoever you are.
Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter
Ours is not a caravan of despair.
Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times,
Come, yet again, come, come


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Mahananda]
    #19327395 - 12/26/13 12:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think what I am having a hard time with is seeing that stillness and rest is what I long for and all these spiritual practices involve effort and movement. It's hard to see that yourself, not just be told it and agree that it makes sense but clearly see it yourself and then go back to feeling separate and having to do spiritual practices again. WHy does the feeling of being separate always come back even after I see how absurd it is? When I see through it it looks so obvious that I feel like I couldnt possibly forget again and feel separate again but next thing I know, an hour later and I am back to thinking I am separate from everything.


Edited by Deviate (12/26/13 12:25 AM)


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19327594 - 12/26/13 03:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.




A big part of my path was becoming thoroughly bored with everything, the classic 'falling away of worldly things', i used to see this as such a let down, as how boring to be so bored with everything... but now when this mood comes i embrace it, to be so disinterested in everything means i can just be myself without any distractions

If there was no beauty, love, bliss, within me waiting to blossom then it would be horrible to lose all these external interests, but as these beautiful things become revealed as my very self, what a blessing to become so disinterested in dross

It's good to become let down & bored because it shows we're really making progress, so to speak, we're losing the superficial lusts & opening up to True Love

The only way our undiluted joy can reveal itself is if we stop watering it down with thoughts


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19327803 - 12/26/13 07:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
There isnt anything to seek though. I dont know what I am going to do with the rest of my life now. Its like, I got so into the seeking business that it gave me something to do, I expalained to you how even it was like a portable game boy. Now what am I going to do?

What I realized was this, that God can manifest as either the enlightenedf state or the ignorant state.

Now the spiritual seeker is someone who had some glimpse of the enlightened state but did not realize that both the enlightened state and the ignorant state are within him, so he went off to seek the enlightened state. Enlightenment is realizing there is no and never was any ignorance. Its all just God playing hide and seek with himself. He hides as everything and he can be tough to find because we are so conditioned to look for him as something.

I still feel a sense of separation from God but I just cant view it in the same way anymore. Its too clear to me that seeking union is only reinforcing separation at this point. So now I just dont know what to do with myself or the rest of my life. Could it ever look more meanignless than it does right now?




So join the club . I realized the same thing about seeking.  Now I seek simple pleasures and work to avoid pain just like I'm designed to do.  What you seek can make a difference. You will still seek something and we all are waiting for the seeking to be over, which it will be, just like you.  Find a way to get some Kratom. It's really helpful at least for me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19327850 - 12/26/13 07:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

are you the reason i keep getting kratom ads popping up? :lol:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19327907 - 12/26/13 08:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I now own stock in the company. :evil:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19327927 - 12/26/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

no wonder you're recommending it to Deviate  :satansmoking:

i tried it once :puke:


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19327959 - 12/26/13 08:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I think what I am having a hard time with is seeing that stillness and rest is what I long for and all these spiritual practices involve effort and movement. It's hard to see that yourself, not just be told it and agree that it makes sense but clearly see it yourself and then go back to feeling separate and having to do spiritual practices again. WHy does the feeling of being separate always come back even after I see how absurd it is? When I see through it it looks so obvious that I feel like I couldnt possibly forget again and feel separate again but next thing I know, an hour later and I am back to thinking I am separate from everything.




you might be able to find the stillness within the movement. i find as an effect of meditation that it becomes possible to do this, especially if you practice energetic meditation like mantra recitation (i think you said you practice the Catholic equivalent of this, or did). what I find is that this allows the mind to rest in equipoise while the body and speech are engaged in the ritual - a skill that carries over into other areas of life, allowing you to maintain calm serenity even in the midst of busyness. you could try still engaging in the Church activities, if they mean a lot to you, while at the same time trying to abide in the heart, as the stillness, sort of both stillness and activity as one, a wellspring of enlightened activity, or something :smile: and i'd say don't be so hard on yourself for your apparent shortcomings on the spiritual path, a big part of the spiritual path is self-love and self-acceptance, really brightens everything up. best wishes :smile:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19328088 - 12/26/13 09:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
no wonder you're recommending it to Deviate  :satansmoking:

i tried it once :puke:




You used it wrong imo.  The first time I tried it I took way too much and puked so bad I swore I'd never use it again.  Many years later Sse showed me how to use it right and it's amazing. Now I can take those high doses without any nausea but I had to work up to it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19328212 - 12/26/13 10:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah people told me to keep at it & eventually the nausea will go away but i lost interest, initially i wanted to try it because i heard it can mix with mushrooms quite well, maybe if i need a physical pain killer in the future i'll look into it


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19329335 - 12/26/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.




A big part of my path was becoming thoroughly bored with everything, the classic 'falling away of worldly things', i used to see this as such a let down, as how boring to be so bored with everything... but now when this mood comes i embrace it, to be so disinterested in everything means i can just be myself without any distractions

If there was no beauty, love, bliss, within me waiting to blossom then it would be horrible to lose all these external interests, but as these beautiful things become revealed as my very self, what a blessing to become so disinterested in dross

It's good to become let down & bored because it shows we're really making progress, so to speak, we're losing the superficial lusts & opening up to True Love

The only way our undiluted joy can reveal itself is if we stop watering it down with thoughts




That last thing you said really affected me. You see, I have been so into tony parsons lately and he never talks about trying to control ones thoughts or becoming free from thougthts so I had basically dropped all those practices. After I read your post I spent about 40 minutes in "true meditation" (this a practice I learned from adyashanti) and i was contronted with a number of deep thought patterns that had been bouncing around in the back of my mind semi consciouisly for quite some time. Afterward, I felt like I broke through to a new level of being. THe Jesus prayer became very active in my heart and my nous went down into my heart. Then it became frightened of what was happening and it went back into my brain. Now I can feel myself constantly running from my heart. I know that I want to be in my heart and yet there is a part of me which does not and seems to be continually running from being who I am. I am afraid of myself. I am a afraid of what a good person I am and how i have done so much evil. I think I am afraid of what the real me is going to think of the person I have been, because the real me is such a good loving person and the me that I have been is such a depressed, selfish, dreadful and unloving person.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher]
    #19329392 - 12/26/13 03:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
The ego has no value. It is completely useless.



Nothing wrong with the "ego."  Nothing to escape there.  Doctrines that proclaim otherwise are full of shit.  Buddhists who proclaim otherwise are full of shit.

Your ego -- your sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility -- is precisely what brings you to forums and discussions like this one.  If you were some cosmically perfect wishy-washy ego-less thing, you'd be boring.  No one would want to listen to you or go to the movies with you.

We have a sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility because those "senses" serve biological / evolutionary purposes.  There is no cosmic trickster burdening us with attributes that aren't useful to us. 

All in my opinion.







Let the inner being be the outer being

You will still have an ego as long as you have thoughts, and you cant live life without thoughts

But no thoughts most of the time is pretty enjoyable

Sometimes I got an ego, sometimes I dont :wink: , how is that possible?

Business/study everyday, nature/meditation/trance after work :wink:


Edited by lessismore (12/26/13 03:51 PM)


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19329431 - 12/26/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I am afraid of myself. I am a afraid of what a good person I am and how i have done so much evil. I think I am afraid of what the real me is going to think of the person I have been, because the real me is such a good loving person and the me that I have been is such a depressed, selfish, dreadful and unloving person.




Look into Jung's works.  Learn to recognize and enlighten your Shadow.  The mistake I see most Christians I know make is that they try to disinherit/disown/shun/cast off part of themselves--the part of themselves that they dislike or feel that they don't want to be.  But the thing is... that IS who part of you is.  You can't fight it-- you can temporarily cast it off, but it WILL return.  Instead of fighting, try to accept.  And transcend.  It's more difficult than you can imagine, but the rewards are more than you can realize.  :sun:

"One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious."
--Carl Jung


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher]
    #19329472 - 12/26/13 04:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yup, got that problem numerous times, not over it :-)

realizing ones mistakes is not without suffering

we all got a good and bad side, try not to think so much about it

just be

acceptance is good
dont just accept people shitting on you i.e.
but else acceptance is good :-P
becomes natural if not thinking about how to live, but it may take years to resolve own problems inside yourself, did so for me and not done , took years so far

I try to give/help/care about others when I can, but I will tell people my honest opinion if they really shit on me
and I realize I dont always treat others fair... but usually that is due to having to work on something in myself that Im not done with
just accept it

and I dont worry, I cant be perfect all the time ;-)
only the soul is perfect, but to live I do separate from god at times

peace :smile: , anytime you want


Edited by lessismore (12/26/13 05:11 PM)


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19329575 - 12/26/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.




A big part of my path was becoming thoroughly bored with everything, the classic 'falling away of worldly things', i used to see this as such a let down, as how boring to be so bored with everything... but now when this mood comes i embrace it, to be so disinterested in everything means i can just be myself without any distractions

If there was no beauty, love, bliss, within me waiting to blossom then it would be horrible to lose all these external interests, but as these beautiful things become revealed as my very self, what a blessing to become so disinterested in dross

It's good to become let down & bored because it shows we're really making progress, so to speak, we're losing the superficial lusts & opening up to True Love

The only way our undiluted joy can reveal itself is if we stop watering it down with thoughts




That last thing you said really affected me. You see, I have been so into tony parsons lately and he never talks about trying to control ones thoughts or becoming free from thougthts so I had basically dropped all those practices. After I read your post I spent about 40 minutes in "true meditation" (this a practice I learned from adyashanti) and i was contronted with a number of deep thought patterns that had been bouncing around in the back of my mind semi consciouisly for quite some time. Afterward, I felt like I broke through to a new level of being. THe Jesus prayer became very active in my heart and my nous went down into my heart. Then it became frightened of what was happening and it went back into my brain. Now I can feel myself constantly running from my heart. I know that I want to be in my heart and yet there is a part of me which does not and seems to be continually running from being who I am. I am afraid of myself. I am a afraid of what a good person I am and how i have done so much evil. I think I am afraid of what the real me is going to think of the person I have been, because the real me is such a good loving person and the me that I have been is such a depressed, selfish, dreadful and unloving person.





You sure come down with some heavy self judging. A sure recipe for misery imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19330665 - 12/26/13 09:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I know that I want to be in my heart and yet there is a part of me which does not and seems to be continually running from being who I am. I am afraid of myself. I am a afraid of what a good person I am and how i have done so much evil. I think I am afraid of what the real me is going to think of the person I have been, because the real me is such a good loving person and the me that I have been is such a depressed, selfish, dreadful and unloving person.




Do your thoughts involve specific things you've done to specific people that you specifically regret?  Is that what you're running from and trying to push out of your mind? It just seems like some people who have abused drugs seem to get something out of 'making amends' with the people they've fucked over.  It's how they stop running, I guess :shrug:.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19330814 - 12/26/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
I know that I want to be in my heart and yet there is a part of me which does not and seems to be continually running from being who I am. I am afraid of myself. I am a afraid of what a good person I am and how i have done so much evil. I think I am afraid of what the real me is going to think of the person I have been, because the real me is such a good loving person and the me that I have been is such a depressed, selfish, dreadful and unloving person.




Do your thoughts involve specific things you've done to specific people that you specifically regret?  Is that what you're running from and trying to push out of your mind? It just seems like some people who have abused drugs seem to get something out of 'making amends' with the people they've fucked over.  It's how they stop running, I guess :shrug:.




Im not running my thoughts, I am running from myself. I am running from the love thats in my heart.

There are some things I have done that I really regret but mostly this is more about my realization that my ego self is a piss poor version of who I could be if I knew how to love. My ego saw its own worthlessness and nothingness and inherent non existence and realized that the only way for me to love the way I want to be able to love, is to let it go, to stop allowing it to be in control. ANd of course thats the last thing my eego wants, to relinguish control.

So now I am overcome with tremendeous death anxiety because I understand that the end goal of all this spiritual practice is the destruction of the ego self. All the rejoicing in the Lord ive done, is just an early celebration of my own funeral. there is something deeply unsettling about that.


Edited by Deviate (12/26/13 10:26 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #19330859 - 12/26/13 10:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.




A big part of my path was becoming thoroughly bored with everything, the classic 'falling away of worldly things', i used to see this as such a let down, as how boring to be so bored with everything... but now when this mood comes i embrace it, to be so disinterested in everything means i can just be myself without any distractions

If there was no beauty, love, bliss, within me waiting to blossom then it would be horrible to lose all these external interests, but as these beautiful things become revealed as my very self, what a blessing to become so disinterested in dross

It's good to become let down & bored because it shows we're really making progress, so to speak, we're losing the superficial lusts & opening up to True Love

The only way our undiluted joy can reveal itself is if we stop watering it down with thoughts




That last thing you said really affected me. You see, I have been so into tony parsons lately and he never talks about trying to control ones thoughts or becoming free from thougthts so I had basically dropped all those practices. After I read your post I spent about 40 minutes in "true meditation" (this a practice I learned from adyashanti) and i was contronted with a number of deep thought patterns that had been bouncing around in the back of my mind semi consciouisly for quite some time. Afterward, I felt like I broke through to a new level of being. THe Jesus prayer became very active in my heart and my nous went down into my heart. Then it became frightened of what was happening and it went back into my brain. Now I can feel myself constantly running from my heart. I know that I want to be in my heart and yet there is a part of me which does not and seems to be continually running from being who I am. I am afraid of myself. I am a afraid of what a good person I am and how i have done so much evil. I think I am afraid of what the real me is going to think of the person I have been, because the real me is such a good loving person and the me that I have been is such a depressed, selfish, dreadful and unloving person.





You sure come down with some heavy self judging. A sure recipe for misery imo.




Certainly, my ego is going to be nothing but miserable from here on out. I have entered the phase of spiritual growth known as "dark night of the soul". I need go through the death/rebirth experience and resdiscover my own innocence and goodness. I am too aware of my ego at this point to continue to live with it. It feels so clunky and awkward, like I am walking around with a suitcase strapped to my chest. The suitcase was there so long that it melded to my skin however and now it is being pried away and this is ubelievably painful. THere is no turning back now though. The cat is out of the bag. I cant live my life trying to please this fictional ego i have created. I am far too aware.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19330978 - 12/26/13 10:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Im not running my thoughts, I am running from myself. I am running from the love thats in my heart.

There are some things I have done that I really regret but mostly this is more about my realization that my ego self is a piss poor version of who I could be if I knew how to love. My ego saw its own worthlessness and nothingness and inherent non existence and realized that the only way for me to love the way I want to be able to love, is to let it go, to stop allowing it to be in control. ANd of course thats the last thing my eego wants, to relinguish control.

So now I am overcome with tremendeous death anxiety because I understand that the end goal of all this spiritual practice is the destruction of the ego self. All the rejoicing in the Lord ive done, is just an early celebration of my own funeral. there is something deeply unsettling about that.




Nah, I didn't mean you were running from thinking, this whole existential mess you've created for yourself is evidence of that. I meant perhaps you were running from particular thoughts and memories that are too painful to acknowledge, so you distract yourself with this spiritual predicament of ego.  The real reason you can't 'love' is because your emotional growth has been stunted - this would be due to reluctance to learn from mistakes and develop more effective coping strategies.  Unfortunately, it requires a stronger connection between the logical risk/reward parts of the brain and one's decision making.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19331695 - 12/27/13 04:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.




A big part of my path was becoming thoroughly bored with everything, the classic 'falling away of worldly things', i used to see this as such a let down, as how boring to be so bored with everything... but now when this mood comes i embrace it, to be so disinterested in everything means i can just be myself without any distractions

If there was no beauty, love, bliss, within me waiting to blossom then it would be horrible to lose all these external interests, but as these beautiful things become revealed as my very self, what a blessing to become so disinterested in dross

It's good to become let down & bored because it shows we're really making progress, so to speak, we're losing the superficial lusts & opening up to True Love

The only way our undiluted joy can reveal itself is if we stop watering it down with thoughts




That last thing you said really affected me. You see, I have been so into tony parsons lately and he never talks about trying to control ones thoughts or becoming free from thougthts so I had basically dropped all those practices. After I read your post I spent about 40 minutes in "true meditation" (this a practice I learned from adyashanti) and i was contronted with a number of deep thought patterns that had been bouncing around in the back of my mind semi consciouisly for quite some time. Afterward, I felt like I broke through to a new level of being. THe Jesus prayer became very active in my heart and my nous went down into my heart. Then it became frightened of what was happening and it went back into my brain. Now I can feel myself constantly running from my heart. I know that I want to be in my heart and yet there is a part of me which does not and seems to be continually running from being who I am. I am afraid of myself. I am a afraid of what a good person I am and how i have done so much evil. I think I am afraid of what the real me is going to think of the person I have been, because the real me is such a good loving person and the me that I have been is such a depressed, selfish, dreadful and unloving person.




You seem to be wrestling with feeling unworthy, like you somehow don't deserve to be true to yourself, when really you can not run from or leave yourself as you are yourself, you are the heart and the heart is all, you can't move away from it you can only think you do, just by realizing the innocent immaculate nature of yourself any misguided thing you have ever done is automatically absolved, you have never done anything wrong

Sometimes when we have a new breakthrough all the vasanas come up again snagging on & dragging up our unidentified attachments, bringing them into the light of consciousness, this is like decypher said, shining a light on the darkness, when you see these parts of yourself that have been lurking in you, in my opinion all you have to do is remain as the consciousness of them, that in itself shines a light on it & dissipates the ignorance of darkness, maybe there has to be a trust that just being conscious is enough and the work will automatically go on, like you live in a self cleaning house you just need to power it up by bringing the power back to where you are

It's good that you recognize the dark aspects of yourself, the very fact you are conscious of them shows you are growing out of them, you're no longer living as the negative aspects, you're seeing they are aspects, not the whole, all aspects are seen from the whole, so as you become aware of aspects and intuitvely sense they are not the whole, your consciousness is cracking the egg of self-identification and starting to spread its wings, in no time you will be soaring


--------------------


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19331773 - 12/27/13 05:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

What can I to speed the whole thing up?


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19332039 - 12/27/13 07:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Slow it down


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: lessismore]
    #19333036 - 12/27/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mio said:
Sometimes I got an ego, sometimes I dont :wink: , how is that possible?




Yes, during Samadhi, you no longer experience an ego.  Dunno what conclusion you wanted to draw from that though... :confused2:

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
That last thing you said really affected me. You see, I have been so into tony parsons lately and he never talks about trying to control ones thoughts or becoming free from thougthts so I had basically dropped all those practices. After I read your post I spent about 40 minutes in "true meditation" (this a practice I learned from adyashanti) and i was contronted with a number of deep thought patterns that had been bouncing around in the back of my mind semi consciouisly for quite some time. Afterward, I felt like I broke through to a new level of being. THe Jesus prayer became very active in my heart and my nous went down into my heart. Then it became frightened of what was happening and it went back into my brain. Now I can feel myself constantly running from my heart. I know that I want to be in my heart and yet there is a part of me which does not and seems to be continually running from being who I am. I am afraid of myself. I am a afraid of what a good person I am and how i have done so much evil. I think I am afraid of what the real me is going to think of the person I have been, because the real me is such a good loving person and the me that I have been is such a depressed, selfish, dreadful and unloving person.





You sure come down with some heavy self judging. A sure recipe for misery imo.




QFT :sadyes:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19333050 - 12/27/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
What can I to speed the whole thing up?




Relax.  Breathe.  Stop pursuing.

"Pursuit" of enlightenment/salvation/liberation/etcetera is just words you read or someone told you.  Let it go.

Let it go.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19333942 - 12/27/13 06:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Ok last night I went through a major transformation. I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit). anyway my heart was beating so hard and for so long that I began having chest pains and I thought what if I die from this? Wouldnt that be hilarious? What would my family say?
"well he came catholic, started praying a lot and within a couple of years he was dead" lol. Anyway after 8 hours had passed, I finally let go of my small ego self and boom I realized who I was. Then I was supremely happy. I saw through the veil of duality. I saw that reality was non dual and everything was within me and it was all a remarkably joyful expression of what is, what always has been and always will be and nothing has ever really changed. Thats why in the Book of Revelation St. John calls God "He who is and was and will be" and worthy is the lamb. Anyway, I understood that this knowledge was self-realization.

Now what I dont get is, when I woke up the next morning, I had an ego again. Not a big one like before. I had shifted into a totally new state of being now. Its wonderful. I am so present. I see eternity in each moment and I know that I am one with it. And yet, something is still off. I am not totally liiberated or enlightened. There is still this ego coming back and trying to retake control over me. Why is this happening? How can the ego come back after Ive seen its not real? Do I need to keep doing my spiritual practices? Do I need to keep inquiring who am I?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19333957 - 12/27/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
What can I to speed the whole thing up?




Nothing. If what I have seen of life, in myself and that world, is any indication.  Lifetimes would be needed. So get set for the long haul.  You'll learn humor yet Steppenwolf.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19333967 - 12/27/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Weshould start of killing 99 percent of us... then buildus simple tents and small huts in the forest.. we would make traditions of human sacrafice and psilocybin..  simple lives. Living in tribes, tought by shamans.. that, I think is the way to live.. and harming of innosence, a death penalty.. like killing lions.. i am disgusted by those who kill lions... and wolves for that matter... people like that should be killed.. greedy people should be killed... judgemental people should be killed...


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19333999 - 12/27/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Ok last night I went through a major transformation. I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit). anyway my heart was beating so hard and for so long that I began having chest pains and I thought what if I die from this? Wouldnt that be hilarious? What would my family say?
"well he came catholic, started praying a lot and within a couple of years he was dead" lol. Anyway after 8 hours had passed, I finally let go of my small ego self and boom I realized who I was. Then I was supremely happy. I saw through the veil of duality. I saw that reality was non dual and everything was within me and it was all a remarkably joyful expression of what is, what always has been and always will be and nothing has ever really changed. Thats why in the Book of Revelation St. John calls God "He who is and was and will be" and worthy is the lamb. Anyway, I understood that this knowledge was self-realization.

Now what I dont get is, when I woke up the next morning, I had an ego again. Not a big one like before. I had shifted into a totally new state of being now. Its wonderful. I am so present. I see eternity in each moment and I know that I am one with it. And yet, something is still off. I am not totally liiberated or enlightened. There is still this ego coming back and trying to retake control over me. Why is this happening? How can the ego come back after Ive seen its not real? Do I need to keep doing my spiritual practices? Do I need to keep inquiring who am I?




Not sure if you are kidding, it seems like you know the answer, but anyway

The thing I did first was to realize how pointless certain thoughts were
judge others? pointless
fear? pointless
worries? pointless
frustration? pointless

let them pass

I am not my thoughts, but the controller of own thoughts
to be the controller of own thoughts I just have to relax, I take walks in nature, I dont do drugs very often
and I dont worry


Edited by lessismore (12/27/13 06:48 PM)


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: lessismore]
    #19334006 - 12/27/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You got to give up the illusion of controll to.. it also brings suffering... it works as a balance to the superego...


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icyus]
    #19334016 - 12/27/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
Weshould start of killing 99 percent of us... then buildus simple tents and small huts in the forest.. we would make traditions of human sacrafice and psilocybin..  simple lives. Living in tribes, tought by shamans.. that, I think is the way to live.. and harming of innosence, a death penalty.. like killing lions.. i am disgusted by those who kill lions... and wolves for that matter... people like that should be killed.. greedy people should be killed... judgemental people should be killed...




Aren't you being judgmental here? :lol:

But since I like your judgments I'm going to spare you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icyus]
    #19334023 - 12/27/13 06:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
You got to give up the illusion of controll to.. it also brings suffering... it works as a balance to the superego...



Why is control an illusion?

If you are 100% yourself, you would be the creator/controller of own thoughts
thoughts would come and go, but only those you like would you use

observer of the mind

edit:
to Deviate I can recommend "The power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle
if you havent already read it


Edited by lessismore (12/27/13 06:45 PM)


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: lessismore]
    #19334060 - 12/27/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Icelander, how am I being judgemental? I just recite my expereance... I know why... it judge it to be wrong..  why? It saddens me... it saddens me through empathy.. I can chose wether or not to empathize.. not what to... is it really me judging?  Maybe one might argue it is so.. I just cannot help feeling sad when people do such thing.. it hurts me..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19334065 - 12/27/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Ok last night I went through a major transformation. I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit). anyway my heart was beating so hard and for so long that I began having chest pains and I thought what if I die from this? Wouldnt that be hilarious? What would my family say?
"well he came catholic, started praying a lot and within a couple of years he was dead" lol. Anyway after 8 hours had passed, I finally let go of my small ego self and boom I realized who I was. Then I was supremely happy. I saw through the veil of duality. I saw that reality was non dual and everything was within me and it was all a remarkably joyful expression of what is, what always has been and always will be and nothing has ever really changed. Thats why in the Book of Revelation St. John calls God "He who is and was and will be" and worthy is the lamb. Anyway, I understood that this knowledge was self-realization.

Now what I dont get is, when I woke up the next morning, I had an ego again. Not a big one like before. I had shifted into a totally new state of being now. Its wonderful. I am so present. I see eternity in each moment and I know that I am one with it. And yet, something is still off. I am not totally liiberated or enlightened. There is still this ego coming back and trying to retake control over me. Why is this happening? How can the ego come back after Ive seen its not real? Do I need to keep doing my spiritual practices? Do I need to keep inquiring who am I?




sounds like a great experience, and one which seems to indicate that what you're doing that way is working :thumbup: :laugh:


--------------------



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icyus]
    #19334217 - 12/27/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
Icelander, how am I being judgemental? I just recite my expereance... I know why... it judge it to be wrong..  why? It saddens me... it saddens me through empathy.. I can chose wether or not to empathize.. not what to... is it really me judging?  Maybe one might argue it is so.. I just cannot help feeling sad when people do such thing.. it hurts me..





Yes it's judging.  We all do it. And it doesn't matter the intent.

people like that should be killed.. greedy people should be killed... judgemental people should be killed..

That's some heavy judging going on there. :satansmoking:

But like I said, I agree with your judgments.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deff]
    #19334386 - 12/27/13 08:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Ok last night I went through a major transformation. I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit). anyway my heart was beating so hard and for so long that I began having chest pains and I thought what if I die from this? Wouldnt that be hilarious? What would my family say?
"well he came catholic, started praying a lot and within a couple of years he was dead" lol. Anyway after 8 hours had passed, I finally let go of my small ego self and boom I realized who I was. Then I was supremely happy. I saw through the veil of duality. I saw that reality was non dual and everything was within me and it was all a remarkably joyful expression of what is, what always has been and always will be and nothing has ever really changed. Thats why in the Book of Revelation St. John calls God "He who is and was and will be" and worthy is the lamb. Anyway, I understood that this knowledge was self-realization.

Now what I dont get is, when I woke up the next morning, I had an ego again. Not a big one like before. I had shifted into a totally new state of being now. Its wonderful. I am so present. I see eternity in each moment and I know that I am one with it. And yet, something is still off. I am not totally liiberated or enlightened. There is still this ego coming back and trying to retake control over me. Why is this happening? How can the ego come back after Ive seen its not real? Do I need to keep doing my spiritual practices? Do I need to keep inquiring who am I?




sounds like a great experience, and one which seems to indicate that what you're doing that way is working :thumbup: :laugh:





It was amazing experience. I have never been so happy. I am still aware of myself as the infinite only my ego is coming back now and trying to reassert itself and I am so tired of the fight against it. That is the one thing that is bothering me right now. I had hoped that once I saw throiugh duality, that would be it. Everything would just proceed automatically from there and I would not need to do any further counter egoic work.

Unfortunately the ego is an incredibly cunning beast. There is yet life in it and it appears that my battle is not yet won.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19334433 - 12/27/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit). anyway my heart was beating so hard and for so long that I began having chest pains and I thought what if I die from this? Wouldnt that be hilarious? What would my family say?
"well he came catholic, started praying a lot and within a couple of years he was dead" lol. Anyway after 8 hours had passed, I finally let go of my small ego self and boom I realized who I was. Then I was supremely happy.




Sounds like you're working yourself into hysteria until you melt down and feel better.... The real question is, imo, how can you just feel better without such a ritual?  You really don't want to keep doing this to yourself imho.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblemt cleverest
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19335097 - 12/28/13 12:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Ok last night I went through a major transformation. I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit).




can you clarify your experience a little bit? what were you doing to make your ego feel terrified?


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19335525 - 12/28/13 04:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Ok last night I went through a major transformation. I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit). anyway my heart was beating so hard and for so long that I began having chest pains and I thought what if I die from this? Wouldnt that be hilarious? What would my family say?
"well he came catholic, started praying a lot and within a couple of years he was dead" lol. Anyway after 8 hours had passed, I finally let go of my small ego self and boom I realized who I was. Then I was supremely happy. I saw through the veil of duality. I saw that reality was non dual and everything was within me and it was all a remarkably joyful expression of what is, what always has been and always will be and nothing has ever really changed. Thats why in the Book of Revelation St. John calls God "He who is and was and will be" and worthy is the lamb. Anyway, I understood that this knowledge was self-realization.

Now what I dont get is, when I woke up the next morning, I had an ego again. Not a big one like before. I had shifted into a totally new state of being now. Its wonderful. I am so present. I see eternity in each moment and I know that I am one with it. And yet, something is still off. I am not totally liiberated or enlightened. There is still this ego coming back and trying to retake control over me. Why is this happening? How can the ego come back after Ive seen its not real? Do I need to keep doing my spiritual practices? Do I need to keep inquiring who am I?




Ramana said the thought 'who am i?' is like a wooden stick tending a fire that eventually gets consumed by the fire itself, so as long as you can ask the question then one should ask the question, when it's done its work you're left silent as the Self

Ultimately the Self Is, there is no reaching it, and you are that now, totally, beyond all attainment, hence the question 'who am i?', yet the vasanas (tendencies/habits/identifications) are ancient and it can take lifetimes of sadhana to destroy them, so you can see there's two ways of looking at it, probably more, but these are the two realistic ones i find, yet only one is really true as it's absolute

Destroying the ego-thoughts isn't for everyone, like you've seen in this forum many egos recommend otherwise (funny that!) but obviously you're up for it & want nothing less, and it's your life you're entitled to decide what what you want for yourself, like you i'm not interested in being interesting to other people, not interested in 'success' or whatever other benefits having an ego supposedly entails, i'm only concerned with being true to myself and what that entails


--------------------


Edited by Chronic7 (12/28/13 04:30 AM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19335630 - 12/28/13 05:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Destroying the ego-thoughts isn't for everyone, like you've seen in this forum many people recommend otherwise, but obviously you're up for it & want nothing less, and it's your life you're entitled to decide what what you want for yourself, like you i'm not interested in being interesting to other people, not interested in 'success' or whatever other benefits having an ego supposedly entails, i'm only concerned with being true to myself




This is :poop: imho.  You're confusing having an ego (a mind) with egotism, like that of a hot shot lawyer.  They're not at all the same thing.  You need a healthy mind, not only to survive, but to enjoy your life here on earth. 

By all means, when you've finished your responsibilities for the day, get high if your belief system permits, meditate, and detach yourself from your mind.  Experience some sense of calmness in the ocean of existence, where everything can be perceived as energy pouring into energy. 

A sick, broken mind at the reigns of your existence is an endlessly hellish experience without a doubt. As the saying goes, the mind is a perfect servant and a terrible master.  But even meditation is no magical cure all, it's just giving a warped mind a well needed break from itself, where one can hopefully gain some perspective, and that's perspective on what thought patterns are actually causing one so much grief (and this includes thinking about spirituality when you're neglecting other aspects of life you might feel guilty about, like money you haven't paid back or whatever).

Ultimately, you're going to have to nourish your mind, restructure the thought patterns, find a way you can use it and live with it, so that all aspects of self can coexist without it crippling you, trampling over the rest of your being like an enraged bull.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19335662 - 12/28/13 05:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

nice


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19335871 - 12/28/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
Destroying the ego-thoughts isn't for everyone, like you've seen in this forum many people recommend otherwise, but obviously you're up for it & want nothing less, and it's your life you're entitled to decide what what you want for yourself, like you i'm not interested in being interesting to other people, not interested in 'success' or whatever other benefits having an ego supposedly entails, i'm only concerned with being true to myself




This is :poop: imho.  You're confusing having an ego (a mind) with egotism, like that of a hot shot lawyer.  They're not at all the same thing.  You need a healthy mind, not only to survive, but to enjoy your life here on earth. 

By all means, when you've finished your responsibilities for the day, get high if your belief system permits, meditate, and detach yourself from your mind.  Experience some sense of calmness in the ocean of existence, where everything can be perceived as energy pouring into energy. 

A sick, broken mind at the reigns of your existence is an endlessly hellish experience without a doubt. As the saying goes, the mind is a perfect servant and a terrible master.  But even meditation is no magical cure all, it's just giving a warped mind a well needed break from itself, where one can hopefully gain some perspective, and that's perspective on what thought patterns are actually causing one so much grief (and this includes thinking about spirituality when you're neglecting other aspects of life you might feel guilty about, like money you haven't paid back or whatever).

Ultimately, you're going to have to nourish your mind, restructure the thought patterns, find a way you can use it and live with it, so that all aspects of self can coexist without it crippling you, trampling over the rest of your being like an enraged bull.




Having an ego is egotism, of course it can be healthy or unhealthy,I agree with most of what you say but if we're talking about ego or ego-loss there are extremes & there is also plenty of middle ground, if i want to go to either extreme and become a full on egotisitical narcissistic maniac or go the other way & work at removing the ego as much as possible, for my own reasons whatever they be in either case, i have the right to do so

Its noble of you to point out the extremes in both cases might not be healthy as that's your honest opinion, but i did clearly state that such an extreme approach to the ego is not for everyone

What's :poop: is saying its one way or the other when there's 7 billion people on this planet each at their own level of understanding the universe


--------------------


Edited by Chronic7 (12/28/13 07:39 AM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19336036 - 12/28/13 08:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:

Having an ego is egotism, of course it can be healthy or unhealthy,I agree with most of what you say but if we're talking about ego or ego-loss there are extremes & there is also plenty of middle ground, if i want to go to either extreme and become a full on egotisitical narcissistic maniac or go the other way & work at removing the ego as much as possible, for my own reasons whatever they be in either case, i have the right to do so

Its noble of you to point out the extremes in both cases might not be healthy as that's your honest opinion, but i did clearly state that such an extreme approach to the ego is not for everyone

What's :poop: is saying its one way or the other when there's 7 billion people on this planet each at their own level of understanding the universe




I disagree, having an ego is not egotism (which is a drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance — intellectual, physical, social and other. ) One can be neurotic and self conscious, the opposite end of the narcissist spectrum, and have equally as fractured personality. 

You seem to be thinking that I'm against the idea of ego transcendence, and I'm not.... But the goal of ego transcendence it is to become a whole person, not to get rid of a part of yourself that's causing you pain, but to experience it from a holistic vantage point to make sense of what's wrong with it and transform it.  That same mind that is causing you pain is also the source of all your creativity, humor, craftsmanship, etc.
You can't get rid of your ego, unless you want to spend the rest of your life OMing on acid, but you can be more than your ego, you can be your whole 'Self'.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19336076 - 12/28/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:

Having an ego is egotism, of course it can be healthy or unhealthy,I agree with most of what you say but if we're talking about ego or ego-loss there are extremes & there is also plenty of middle ground, if i want to go to either extreme and become a full on egotisitical narcissistic maniac or go the other way & work at removing the ego as much as possible, for my own reasons whatever they be in either case, i have the right to do so

Its noble of you to point out the extremes in both cases might not be healthy as that's your honest opinion, but i did clearly state that such an extreme approach to the ego is not for everyone

What's :poop: is saying its one way or the other when there's 7 billion people on this planet each at their own level of understanding the universe




I disagree, having an ego is not egotism (which is a drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance — intellectual, physical, social and other. ) One can be neurotic and self conscious, the opposite end of the narcissist spectrum, and have equally as fractured personality. 





When you define it like that i agree, although i think the term egotism can apply to both ends of the spectrum, its not just arrogance that's egotism but shyness aswell, maybe my english is off though

I can also see how any vestige of an ego, even the sense 'I Am', could be considered a form of egotism, albeit godly, maybe i'm defining it differently though :shrug:

Quote:

You seem to be thinking that I'm against the idea of ego transcendence, and I'm not....




I could tell from your previous post you're not against it, i'm not sure where i gave the impression that i thought you were against it...

Quote:

But the goal of ego transcendence it is to become a whole person, not to get rid of a part of yourself that's causing you pain, but to experience it from a holistic vantage point to make sense of what's wrong with it and transform it.  That same mind that is causing you pain is also the source of all your creativity, humor, craftsmanship, etc.
You can't get rid of your ego, unless you want to spend the rest of your life OMing on acid, but you can be more than your ego, you can be your whole 'Self'




That's great, good way of putting it, i actually don't like using the term ego but some people resonate with that way of talking about things

I feel that the best way (for myself anyway) is to just be myself and to leave the definition of that as open as possible, some people call what limits this sense of definition an ego, and if so i would agree that one can function fine without it, i find the bodymind has inbuilt senses/definitions that are necessary for it to function, but our actual sense of self which is ultimately not of the body, can remain without definition, and if anything i function better without it, life is clearer, sharper, im faster to instinctively react rather than deliberate, i no longer de-liberate myself


--------------------


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19336276 - 12/28/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Here's a corny metaphor I came up with, not to be taken too literally.

The totality of the self is like a phenomenal orchestra playing the 5th, but a fractured ego is like a toddler having a tantrum slamming on the keys of a piano and drowning out the music.  Meditating is like removing the child from the theatre so that you can hear the beautiful music again and get inspired, but the only way you're going to experience anything approximating enduring tranquility is to teach the child how to play.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19336370 - 12/28/13 10:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

What to you would be analogous to 'teaching the child how to play'?


--------------------


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19336869 - 12/28/13 12:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:

Having an ego is egotism, of course it can be healthy or unhealthy,I agree with most of what you say but if we're talking about ego or ego-loss there are extremes & there is also plenty of middle ground, if i want to go to either extreme and become a full on egotisitical narcissistic maniac or go the other way & work at removing the ego as much as possible, for my own reasons whatever they be in either case, i have the right to do so

Its noble of you to point out the extremes in both cases might not be healthy as that's your honest opinion, but i did clearly state that such an extreme approach to the ego is not for everyone

What's :poop: is saying its one way or the other when there's 7 billion people on this planet each at their own level of understanding the universe




I disagree, having an ego is not egotism (which is a drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance — intellectual, physical, social and other. ) One can be neurotic and self conscious, the opposite end of the narcissist spectrum, and have equally as fractured personality. 

You seem to be thinking that I'm against the idea of ego transcendence, and I'm not.... But the goal of ego transcendence it is to become a whole person, not to get rid of a part of yourself that's causing you pain, but to experience it from a holistic vantage point to make sense of what's wrong with it and transform it.  That same mind that is causing you pain is also the source of all your creativity, humor, craftsmanship, etc.
You can't get rid of your ego, unless you want to spend the rest of your life OMing on acid, but you can be more than your ego, you can be your whole 'Self'.




QFT :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineIcyus
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Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher]
    #19336945 - 12/28/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Then, you ought to learn from michael harner, qouteguy...


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icyus]
    #19337069 - 12/28/13 01:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have a few of his books in PDF format.  Care to specify what I 'ought' to learn from him for the benefit of the class?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #19339334 - 12/28/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What to you would be analogous to 'teaching the child how to play'?





It's your mind, thoughts, behaviors, attitudes, etc.  In my experience, I couldn't just reject all the traits that repulsed me, label them as my ego, and atom bomb them out of existence permanently with LSD and mantras. At best, that gave me some slight insight into what might be my future self might be like.  My mind wasn't perfect, but the LSD showed me that it had incredible potential for harmony, so I had to stop hiding from it even though at times it's discordant.  A lot of it is self acceptance, being patient with my mind, giving it roots to grow... In my life this has included educating myself, 'right livelihood' - taking care of my responsibilities with my craft, and cultural activity - traveling, theatre, films, books, music, comedy etc.

"Remember what the Dormouse said. Feed your head. Feed your head."


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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