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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19312339 - 12/22/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

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hmmn said:
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DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

hmmn said:
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redgreenvines said:
in the present, you can alter the past (endlessly, effortlessly), and make different guesses about the future (and plans ad infinitum), but there is only the present, which contains evidence of the past and potential for future.




:aweyeah:

I see it as redgreen has said.  Still...the question of free-will & determinism arises for me as well.  Do we have any role in altering the present's potential for the future, or are we purely deterministic beings whose fate is already set? :shrug:




I don't think it's a question of free will vs. determinism.  If we have free will, the future is still unknown and, while shapeable (at best), it never turns out according to anyone's plans.  Conversely, if the universe is one of pure determinism and fate, it's the same:  we still don't know what the future holds, so what's the difference?  Even in a deterministic universe, one can react and make changes.  I see the point I have been making as applicable to both a perspective of free will and fate.  The argument is the same.




Hmmm...I see the topic as necessitating discussion of free will & determinism, despite agreeing with most of what you said.

...

I agree that both free will and hard determinism are compatible with us having experiences and making decisions in reaction to events.

I read your initial post as questioning whether we can have any meaningful impact on the future, in which a meaningful impact is defined as producing an intended future state that is predictable.  You then entertain the argument that we cannot have any meaningful impact on the future because our efforts in the present have unpredictable results.  (is that about right?)

Because there are examples of future states that can be produced quite reliably through action in the present, I don't think that argument will work!  For example, I know with certainty that I can start a big fire by combining a small amount of fire with a large amount of gasoline in an atmosphere containing oxygen.  Anytime I combine these factors I will get a big fire, and as I start the fire it seems that I execute a meaningful impact on the future.

...

However, I also question whether we have any meaningful impact on the future.  I question this because it appears to me that all my actions are actually predetermined by cause and effect.  Although I certainly have experiences and make decisions based on them, so far as I can tell all my experiences and decisions are the result of causal interactions between many impersonal forces in the universe (e.g. the molecules and energies that make up my body and surroundings, and whatever it is that makes up my mind and sense of self).  This leads me to question whether I have free will in any meaningful sense.

If it's true that my actions and experiences - and the world that exists beyond them - are determined by the causal network that makes up the universe (i.e. if there is no supernatural aspect to my existence), then it seems to me that I have no ability to change the future.  The act of changing it is itself predetermined.

Doesn't that line of thinking pose a contradiction to the notion that we have any meaningful impact on the future? :cookiemonster:





It appears we are taking a slightly different tack, but, that said, I think what you wrote is a well and carefully thought out reinforcement of my point, which you obviously understood.


Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Can the future be altered... ?




Your question makes no sense. Altered from what?




I suppose a more rigorous way to say it would be 'intentionally crafted,' or simply 'deliberately changed' from a present state to a future state.  I appreciate your confusion.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19315019 - 12/23/13 07:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think the "intentionally crafted" part
which is separate from the "crafted" part
is at a ratio of 0.0001% (free will):
it is so small that it can be overlooked
so small that you can ruminate over it endlessly as a thing of no importance whatever.
since most of our being is automatic. conditioned, trainable, and clearly not free willed.

again the thing about fires is not future, it is knowledge of a bit of chemistry and physics, it is a mechanical resource similar to a facial expression ; and we all do have the ability for facial expressions which do (occasionally) impact the future but are not the future.

what is confusing, is that there is so much pain and so much pleasure (feelings), so much unavoidable relating to our world socially and functionally - that our lives feel both full and (after some analysis) empty at the same time.

around New Years, the (usually drunken) resolution challenges emerge, and so this argument resurfaces (automatically) and the 0.0001% (of all mental activity) potential to change becomes treated as brutally as a video game controller, in which the game is controlling the player.

what I am trying to say is that the free willed player is there (at 0.0001% of the aggregate self if measured in cycles of brain activity), inside us, way smaller and quieter than the day to day feelings that we have, & way smaller and quieter than our personalities that seem to be in charge of what we think do and say.

[the number 0.0001% is made up here, activity in the prefrontal cortex may actually amount to 2% of all mental processing, mostly as associative evaluation and compilation against previous evaluation and compilation, but a part of it's function is to emit alarms to the rest of the brain, AND if there are many various alarms, it achieves nothing in the way of steering the self, but if it can stick to a few small "most valuable" issues, and swallow the rest of the alarms, then 0.0001% becomes a meaningful number.
A number that says, this is what I can change at any time, and to this extent, I am an agency and not just another piece of creation.]


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OfflineTycoda
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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19315071 - 12/23/13 07:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

People have free will, but some facets of life are pre-determined from our perspective, as well, because those facets of reality lie outside of our unique sphere of influence as inidividuals.


Edited by Tycoda (12/23/13 09:48 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19315373 - 12/23/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think the "intentionally crafted" part
which is separate from the "crafted" part
is at a ratio of 0.0001% (free will):
it is so small that it can be overlooked
so small that you can ruminate over it endlessly as a thing of no importance whatever.
since most of our being is automatic. conditioned, trainable, and clearly not free willed.

again the thing about fires is not future, it is knowledge of a bit of chemistry and physics, it is a mechanical resource similar to a facial expression ; and we all do have the ability for facial expressions which do (occasionally) impact the future but are not the future.

what is confusing, is that there is so much pain and so much pleasure (feelings), so much unavoidable relating to our world socially and functionally - that our lives feel both full and (after some analysis) empty at the same time.

around New Years, the (usually drunken) resolution challenges emerge, and so this argument resurfaces (automatically) and the 0.0001% (of all mental activity) potential to change becomes treated as brutally as a video game controller, in which the game is controlling the player.

what I am trying to say is that the free willed player is there (at 0.0001% of the aggregate self if measured in cycles of brain activity), inside us, way smaller and quieter than the day to day feelings that we have, & way smaller and quieter than our personalities that seem to be in charge of what we think do and say.

[the number 0.0001% is made up here, activity in the prefrontal cortex may actually amount to 2% of all mental processing, mostly as associative evaluation and compilation against previous evaluation and compilation, but a part of it's function is to emit alarms to the rest of the brain, AND if there are many various alarms, it achieves nothing in the way of steering the self, but if it can stick to a few small "most valuable" issues, and swallow the rest of the alarms, then 0.0001% becomes a meaningful number.
A number that says, this is what I can change at any time, and to this extent, I am an agency and not just another piece of creation.]




Couldn't agree more.


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Invisiblehmmn


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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19316027 - 12/23/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Uh...I find this quite perplexing!

If in this moment I decide that the time to set my car on fire is now and, based on this decision, torch my car, you believe that I haven't brought about an intentionally crafted future state when my car indeed catches on fire...because fire is about chemistry and physics?

I must be missing something... :shrug:


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: hmmn]
    #19316173 - 12/23/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You think because nothing stopped you (that time) from carrying out your intention that you have agency in shaping your future in general.  It's a false certainty though, as nothing you intend is ever guaranteed to work out as you intend it.  The ultimate result is that you really have no say in what actually happens.  Sometimes you can bring your intentions to fruition, and sometimes you can't, but every action you take is a gamble.


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Invisiblehmmn


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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: Mr Person]
    #19316538 - 12/23/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr Person said:
You think because nothing stopped you (that time) from carrying out your intention that you have agency in shaping your future in general.  It's a false certainty though, as nothing you intend is ever guaranteed to work out as you intend it.  The ultimate result is that you really have no say in what actually happens.  Sometimes you can bring your intentions to fruition, and sometimes you can't, but every action you take is a gamble.




Hmmm...well, it's not so much that I think my example proves that I have general agency in determining my future.  Rather, it's self-evident to me that when I take action in order to bring about an intended future state and that action actually does bring about that intended future state I have thereby impacted the future in the way I intended.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: Mr Person]
    #19316543 - 12/23/13 02:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

what kind of supposition or idea is the fire and the gasoline, anyway?

it seems so arbitrary: it lacks the dignity of decision and makes a mockery of the whole idea of (free) will, as opposed to highlighting willfulness and a habit of orneriness in argument.


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Invisiblehmmn


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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19316565 - 12/23/13 02:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The purpose is the provide a very easy example of a situation in which one can alter the future quite predictably.  This poses a contradiction to the idea that we cannot alter our future in a predictable way, which ya'll seem to believe is true.

It's not true!  We alter the future all the time.

We could use other examples.  Suppose that I was once a very angry and hateful person.  I suffered enough from my habit of anger that I decided it was time to do something about it, so I looked for a means to change.  I stumble across a book by Wayne Dyer, from which I learn about some new-age anger-transforming technique.  I decide to apply this technique to become more loving and less angry.  It works, and the more I use the technique, the more loving I become.  Eventually, I realize that I no longer feel angry in my daily life and am a kind and gentle soul.

If this happened, wouldn't I have created a more kind and loving future for myself by transforming my hateful mind? :cookiemonster:


Edited by hmmn (12/23/13 02:52 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: hmmn]
    #19316611 - 12/23/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr Person said:
You think because nothing stopped you (that time) from carrying out your intention that you have agency in shaping your future in general.  It's a false certainty though, as nothing you intend is ever guaranteed to work out as you intend it.  The ultimate result is that you really have no say in what actually happens.  Sometimes you can bring your intentions to fruition, and sometimes you can't, but every action you take is a gamble.




Exactly.  Well said.

Quote:

hmmn said:
The purpose is the provide a very easy example of a situation in which one can alter the future quite predictably.  This poses a contradiction to the idea that we cannot alter our future in a predictable way, which ya'll seem to believe is true.

It's not true!  We alter the future all the time.

We could use other examples.  Suppose that I was once a very angry and hateful person.  I suffered enough from my habit of anger that I decided it was time to do something about it, so I looked for a means to change.  I stumble across a book by Wayne Dyer, from which I learn about some new-age anger-transforming technique.  I decide to apply this technique to become more loving and less angry.  It works, and the more I use the technique, the more loving I become.  Eventually, I realize that I no longer feel angry in my daily life and am a kind and gentle soul.

If this happened, wouldn't I have created a more kind and loving future for myself by transforming my hateful mind? :cookiemonster:




And what happens if, while in a dreamy, copacetic mood, you walk out of Dunkin Donuts and begin to cross and get hit by a bus?

Point is:  things will usually not turn out as one envisions them, so how can one really be said to be orchestrating a neat and tidy perfectly controlled future scenario?


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Invisiblehmmn


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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19316625 - 12/23/13 03:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That not everything turns out as expected is no contradiction to the fact that we alter the future - nor is it a contradiction to the fact that we can alter the future quite predictably at times.

I get the sense that you guys think I hold views that I don't hold and haven't expressed... :shrug:


....


If I walk across the street and get hit by a bus then, of course, my future will be heavily impacted by that bus!


Edited by hmmn (12/23/13 03:06 PM)


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: hmmn]
    #19316762 - 12/23/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hmmn said:

Hmmm...well, it's not so much that I think my example proves that I have general agency in determining my future.  Rather, it's self-evident to me that when I take action in order to bring about an intended future state and that action actually does bring about that intended future state I have thereby impacted the future in the way I intended.




How do you really know it was your action that caused the intended future?  Let's say I've got someone hooked up in an electric chair, and I give you a false switch.  I wait for you to pull it, and when I see that you have, I turn on the electric chair myself.  For all you know, you have caused that person to die, just as you intended, but in actuality you were not aware of the entire web of causality that created the final outcome, and your intentions and decision really didn't have anything to do with it. 

You are similarly ignorant of the web of causality in regards to every action you take, no matter how self evident the results may seem.


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Invisiblehmmn


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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: Mr Person]
    #19317814 - 12/23/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr Person said:
Quote:

hmmn said:

Hmmm...well, it's not so much that I think my example proves that I have general agency in determining my future.  Rather, it's self-evident to me that when I take action in order to bring about an intended future state and that action actually does bring about that intended future state I have thereby impacted the future in the way I intended.




How do you really know it was your action that caused the intended future?  Let's say I've got someone hooked up in an electric chair, and I give you a false switch.  I wait for you to pull it, and when I see that you have, I turn on the electric chair myself.  For all you know, you have caused that person to die, just as you intended, but in actuality you were not aware of the entire web of causality that created the final outcome, and your intentions and decision really didn't have anything to do with it. 

You are similarly ignorant of the web of causality in regards to every action you take, no matter how self evident the results may seem.




I disagree.  You're making a very bold claim - one whose truth would necessitate the rejection of most or all science.  How do you know that it is impossible to know the proximate cause of anything?


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: hmmn]
    #19318899 - 12/23/13 10:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Science is necessarily an approximation of true reality.  It works until it doesn't, but it's neither complete nor infallible.  Newtonian physics, for example, worked just fine for hundreds of years without people seeing the need for Relativity. Science can approximate within limits reasonable for everyday utility, but the existence of random chance (as slight and insignificant as it may be) still has enough of an effect on our actions that nothing is ever truly guaranteed. 

There is such a complex interplay of forces involved in every human action that chaos has a chance to creep in at the quantum level and snowball into the macro-scale where it inevitably destroys even the best laid plans and the simplest tasks of human agency.  Even something as seemingly effortless and repeatable as flicking your finger, or moving some neurotransmitters in your brain can be thwarted by a random cramp, a brainfart, or something else totally out of your control.

It happens EVERY DAY. If it didn't-- if it was possible to know with certainty that your actions can be counted upon to have their expected effects, then we wouldn't be having this conversation because free will would be obvious fact.  You are, in effect, saying "Well 99% certainty is good enough for me." But it's not for us.  IRL certainty=100%.


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Invisiblehmmn


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Re: Can the future be altered any more than the past? [Re: Mr Person]
    #19321128 - 12/24/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Hmmm...that all sounds pretty good, but I still disagree with most of what you've said. :rofl:

Before I say any more, I want to express that I really appreciate the discussion.  Sometimes forum debate posts come off as elitist, harsh, or dismissive.  Please know that I do not feel that way when I type!  This is great.  :nyan:

Quote:

Science is necessarily an approximation of true reality.




This is true.  Science seeks to create knowledge by amassing data about how a certain aspect of reality behaves under certain conditions.  It produces a conceptual imitation of reality; scientific findings do not capture reality itself.  Science is essentially an extraordinarily minute and systematic analysis of sense perceptions.  That said, many findings in science are so robust that one who understands them well enough knows that when X conditions are brought about, Y will occur.

Quote:

Newtonian physics, for example, worked just fine for hundreds of years without people seeing the need for Relativity.




This isn't quite right.  Classical mechanics still work!  They simply do not apply to all conditions.  But it's somewhat questionable to use classical mechanics as an example of science being wrong about reality and therefore debunked; mechanics in general are a subset of physics whose purpose is to approximate reality (mostly for engineers) - not so much to document it perfectly.

Chemistry is a much better example.  If I combine flame and gasoline in a typical Earth atmosphere, the gasoline and oxygen will combust.  If I dip my hand in a solution whose pH is below 12, my skin will burn.

Some aspects of biological sciences work as well.  If I place myself in an environment where there is no oxygen, I will suffocate.  If I fill my mouth with a solution of lidocaine, my mouth will go numb.  How do I know?  We breath to obtain oxygen for cellular respiration, and lidocaine is a sodium channel blocker that consistently produces local anesthesia.

Surely you know that you'll suffocate if placed in a room with no oxygen long enough? :cookiemonster:

......

Again, I'm not advocating for the view that we have perfect knowledge of everything.  I'm advocating for the view that there are times when we know X will come about if Y conditions are created, and that we sometimes know that Y conditions have been or will be created.

But...I do not believe in random chance in the sense that ya'll seem to.  For something to be truly random, it would have to arise without cause (or from a random cause).  If something arises from a non-random cause, it cannot be random - it must be influenced in some particular way by its cause.  If something arises from a random cause, it could be random - but where did the random cause come from?  Ah...something random.  This necessitates an endless chain of random causes, which I don't think is even coherent.  As far as I can tell, random simply means "arising from causes that I do not understand or cannot predict."

That said, there is great uncertainty in human life.  In my view, this is because we are finite (and in fact very small!).  There are so many causes in the universe - far more than we could possibly imagine, it seems.  Our mental and sensory faculties are extremely limited.  We simply cannot know very much at all.  Because of this, life is unpredictable.


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