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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Shins]
    #19308003 - 12/21/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

GreyMorph said:
I think it's ridiculous how you label stuff as hate speech because you don't agree. He was just stating his opinion which is based on a book that's been around for a thousand years give or take.




That's the thing.  Leftists want to arbitrary call opinions that differ from theirs hate speech.



What these so-called 'leftists' wish to designate as hate speech has no bearing on how Canadian law actually defines hate speech.
In Canada, both the criminal code of Canada and the human rights commission have clauses that limit freedom of speech.

The more serious one, found in the criminal code, states that advocating genocide or inciting hatred against any 'identifiable group' qualifies as hate speech--not merely a contentious opinion but flat out promotion of genocide. Exceptions are also made for cases of statements of truth, as well as subjects of public debate and religious doctrine.
It stems from the idea that this type of speech has no redeeming value for society--which, although contentious, many believe to be a valid point.

The human rights commission doesn't directly speak towards hate speech, but rather that of an individuals right to live free of discrimination--which has then be interpreted to include hate speech.
This one stems from the idea that right to live free of discrimination trumps the right for freedom of speech, when the two are directly contrasting.

Please create more than strawmen arguments if you wish to debate something, as it makes for a very boring discussion.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Shins] * 1
    #19308007 - 12/21/13 01:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Imagine if the government made it illegal to talk about shrooms, how would you like that?



They would first have to show how talking about shrooms promotes genocide or incites hatred toward an identifiable group.

Your point is null.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #19308036 - 12/21/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Saying mean things is not discrimination.  Acting on it is, there's a difference.

who are you or anyone else to judge what has value to society?  That's the problem with you leftists, you all think so higly of yourselves that you think you can judge what other people should or shouldn't value or think.  YOU ARE NOT NEARLY SMART ENOUGH TO MAKE THAT CALL.  The beauty of freedom is that the individual is left to judge that for himself, not some violent, authoritaian, nanny smartass statist leftist with his head up his own ass.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19308044 - 12/21/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Imagine if the government made it illegal to talk about shrooms, how would you like that?



They would first have to show how talking about shrooms promotes genocide or incites hatred toward an identifiable group.

Your point is null.




why?  The government could potentially legislate anything it wants.  It could say anything it wants is restricted speech, don't you see that?


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InvisibleQuawonk
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Synthe]
    #19308048 - 12/21/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JonnyBtreed said:Who paved the way for the rights of homosexual people again? Russia perhaps? lol




How about my my freedom-hating country of Canada? And almost 10 years ago, too, before it even really became an issue.

"lol" indeed. I honestly did laugh out loud when I read that. Thank you for that. Felt good.

Quote:

Most Americans don't give a shit what gays, blacks, whites, indians, whatever want to do.




Funny how when it's put to a vote (outrageous that a basic human rights issue like this can be put to popular vote in the first place) it always seems to fail. Why is that?

Quote:

We are big on free speech here in the States. If you couldn't tell.




Oh believe me, I can tell. Replace "free" with "hate" and even more so.

Quote:

Whether people support HIS RIGHT to say it, or whether they support WHAT HE SAID are two very different issues. You seem to feel that people shouldn't have the right to say hurtful things. Which is bullshit. We have the right to say whatever we want




It's not saying "hurtful things". It's not like simply calling someone a poopyhead. This is a prolonged campaign of hate, that has been institutionalized and embedded into the minds of the people and it incites violence and intolerance as Patlal said above. Surely you can see the difference.

Quote:

we've gotten many things accomplished that other countries couldn't because of this right.




Yes! Congratulations on legalizing gay marriage! Great first step! ... oh wait.

Quote:

By the way, it's sounds an awful lot like you're grouping all Americans together and calling us narrow minded conservatives who can never admit to being wrong. Sounds an awful

lot like hate speech to me... Hmmm weird.




I call it like I see it and this thread certainly does nothing to convince me otherwise.

And again, hate speech is about things people cannot control. You can control your dogmatic thinking. All it takes is the will.

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
I think it's ridiculous how you label stuff as hate speech because you don't agree. He was just stating his opinion which is based on a book that's been around for a thousand years give or take.




It's not about agreement, it's about the incitement to violence and the intolerance against people because of things they cannot help. Jesus, are you people thick?*

And that's really what it boils down to, religion. Probably the single biggest source of hatred in the history of the planet. Outlaw religion, no. Outlaw the hateful part of it, yes. Pre-emptive strike. Don't even try to go there.

Quote:

Shins said:
Its a very slippery slope. I bet many leftists would like to call criticizing obama hate speech.




Quote:

Today its duck dynasty, tomorrow criticizing leftist policies will ba hate speech.  Just like in the soviet union they want to be able to take you away if you express a dissenting

opinion.




Perhaps you should actually read a website before linking to it in your signature. Just a thought.

And those leftists would be wrong if they're talking about criticizing his policies. But if they're talking about criticizing his race, yes, that would be hate speech. He can control his policies, he can't control his race. This is not rocket science.

Quote:

Synthe said:
I always thought the idea of anti-hate speech laws were to keep muthafucaks like the Westboro Baptist Church from running around with "gawd hates geys" signs at soldiers funerals.
There's a reason Canadians don't give a shit about them, they don't have to hear about it on their front lawn




Naw, don't you see? People having to put up with that shit is what makes America so vastly superior to Canada!


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Offlineqman
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Quawonk]
    #19308054 - 12/21/13 01:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quawonk said:
OK... it's not even worth my time to respond. I don't have the time to do a point by point to every comment, and I really couldn't be bothered, especially with such absurd strawmen like "Quawonk doesn't think we should have free speech" but I will respond with this. Take it or leave it.

If governments try to stop people criticizing (not outright hating or discriminating against) religion or criticizing politicians and leaders then I'll stand beside you guys in protest. But that's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about hate toward a group based on something they cannot control, and based on no logic or evidence, just pure hate. As long as laws stick to outlawing hate speech against things people cannot control (sexual orientation, gender, race, disability, age, etc.), I'm in favor.

You like to pretend that speech doesn't affect people, but if that was true, there would be no advertising industry, nor political campaigns. Hate speech makes people's lives unlivable. If it goes on for long enough, and is spread far enough, people have to live a lie, live in fear, live in shame, and that is not healthy. I believe that the right to live free from persecution is the most important value. Certainly much more important than giving these disgusting bigots a platform because a 200 year old document says to, and for no other reason.

There is no excuse for defending this kind of hate and we should start thinking outside the box a little bit. But you Americans refuse to budge on your dogmatic, absolutist positions, so this is really a waste of my time, wouldn't you agree?




"As long as laws stick to outlawing hate speech against things people cannot control, I'm in favor."

So you want someone in the government to decide what's "hate speech"?    How do they determine what is "hate speech" and what is political debate?

Sounds like you have little issue with sacrificing free speech to protect people from what some government official is going to determine might be "hate speech".

What is I say, "young black males have a statistically high probability to be involved in the criminal justice system", is that hate speech, or is that a factual statement?  Who should determine this?


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InvisibleSynthe
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: qman] * 1
    #19308069 - 12/21/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Quawonk said:
OK... it's not even worth my time to respond. I don't have the time to do a point by point to every comment, and I really couldn't be bothered, especially with such absurd strawmen like "Quawonk doesn't think we should have free speech" but I will respond with this. Take it or leave it.

If governments try to stop people criticizing (not outright hating or discriminating against) religion or criticizing politicians and leaders then I'll stand beside you guys in protest. But that's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about hate toward a group based on something they cannot control, and based on no logic or evidence, just pure hate. As long as laws stick to outlawing hate speech against things people cannot control (sexual orientation, gender, race, disability, age, etc.), I'm in favor.

You like to pretend that speech doesn't affect people, but if that was true, there would be no advertising industry, nor political campaigns. Hate speech makes people's lives unlivable. If it goes on for long enough, and is spread far enough, people have to live a lie, live in fear, live in shame, and that is not healthy. I believe that the right to live free from persecution is the most important value. Certainly much more important than giving these disgusting bigots a platform because a 200 year old document says to, and for no other reason.

There is no excuse for defending this kind of hate and we should start thinking outside the box a little bit. But you Americans refuse to budge on your dogmatic, absolutist positions, so this is really a waste of my time, wouldn't you agree?




"As long as laws stick to outlawing hate speech against things people cannot control, I'm in favor."

So you want someone in the government to decide what's "hate speech"?    How do they determine what is "hate speech" and what is political debate?

Sounds like you have little issue with sacrificing free speech to protect people from what some government official is going to determine might be "hate speech".

What is I say, "young black males have a statistically high probability to be involved in the criminal justice system", is that hate speech, or is that a factual statement?  Who should determine this?




It's an opinion, as you do not specify how much "high" means. If you said more likely than whites then it would be a fact, much in part due to racial profiling.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: qman] * 1
    #19308073 - 12/21/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So talking about race is hate speech?

so then lets ban the of science of biology and genetics.

this my point, restricting thought and speech restricts human innovation development.

I can't believe I need to explain this.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Shins] * 1
    #19308077 - 12/21/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Saying mean things is not discrimination.  Acting on it is, there's a difference.



Except, once again, we are not referring to 'saying mean things' when we refer to hate speech. We are talking about the active promotion of genocide and incitement of others to hatred. AKA, what the Nazis did towards the jews, romas, mentally handicapped, homosexuals in Europe--AKA, what the Hutus did to the Tsutis in Rwanda--AKA, what the Serbs did to Bosnian muslims in Croatia.

We aren't talking of mere hurt feelings, ok?

And, if you study the literature on genocide, you will learn that propaghanda and hate speech have a direct influence on the development of genocide:

The Eight Stages of Genocide

1. Classification: People are divided into "us and them". The main preventive measure at this early stage is to develop universalistic institutions that transcend divisions.

2. Symbolization: When combined with hatred, symbols may be forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups. To combat symbolization, hate symbols can be legally forbidden as can hate speech.

3. Dehumanization: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects, or diseases. Local and international leaders should condemn the use of hate speech and make it culturally unacceptable. Leaders who incite genocide should be banned from international travel and have their foreign finances frozen."

4. Organization: Genocide is always organized. Special army units or militias are often trained and armed. The U.N. should impose arms embargoes on governments and citizens of countries involved in genocidal massacres, and create commissions to investigate violations.

5. Polarization: Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Prevention may mean security protection for moderate leaders or assistance to human rights groups. Coups d’état by extremists should be opposed by international sanctions.

6. Preparation: Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. At this stage, a Genocide Emergency must be declared.

7. Extermination: It is 'extermination' to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human. At this stage, only rapid and overwhelming armed intervention can stop genocide. Real safe areas or refugee escape corridors should be established with heavily armed international protection.

8. Denial: The perpetrators deny that they committed any crimes. The response to denial is punishment by an international tribunal or national courts.





So no, it's not just one person--or one group--arbitrarilty passing judgement on what has value in society and what doesn't--it is the result of hard learned lessons from genocides that have already happened in the past--through an attempt to understand what caused them and to prevent them from occurring again. By the time things have progressed from 'speech' to 'action', the gears of genocide are already in full operation.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19308080 - 12/21/13 01:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Dude you're having trouble distinguishing speech from action. Learn the difference.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Shins]
    #19308082 - 12/21/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Imagine if the government made it illegal to talk about shrooms, how would you like that?



They would first have to show how talking about shrooms promotes genocide or incites hatred toward an identifiable group.

Your point is null.




why?  The government could potentially legislate anything it wants.  It could say anything it wants is restricted speech, don't you see that?



Ok, and should that hypothetical situation ever come to arise, I will be on the front ranks resisting it.

But that hypothetical situation is not reality and as such has no bearing on my current standing.


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OfflineMisterSandman
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #19308090 - 12/21/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

MisterSandman said:
Oh yeah there is a possible civil war brewing in Ukraine http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-eu-support-conflict-465/





and this affects me how, I mean it wont spill over the border into my state,
sure we may see some refuges as we do in many of these clashes but it still
affects me like this guy from duck dynasty stating his opinion




ummm well it's straining US and Russian relations. This, plus the Syria situation has some pretty hardcore Cold War undertones, the fact that Putin is in power doesn't help. Ukraine also still has some nuclear weapons which opens up a host of other problems that will most certainly affect you if the situation progress in the wrong direction.

But I guess Duck Dynasty is more important:facepalm:


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Edited by MisterSandman (12/21/13 01:37 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Synthe]
    #19308105 - 12/21/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Synthe said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Quawonk said:
OK... it's not even worth my time to respond. I don't have the time to do a point by point to every comment, and I really couldn't be bothered, especially with such absurd strawmen like "Quawonk doesn't think we should have free speech" but I will respond with this. Take it or leave it.

If governments try to stop people criticizing (not outright hating or discriminating against) religion or criticizing politicians and leaders then I'll stand beside you guys in protest. But that's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about hate toward a group based on something they cannot control, and based on no logic or evidence, just pure hate. As long as laws stick to outlawing hate speech against things people cannot control (sexual orientation, gender, race, disability, age, etc.), I'm in favor.

You like to pretend that speech doesn't affect people, but if that was true, there would be no advertising industry, nor political campaigns. Hate speech makes people's lives unlivable. If it goes on for long enough, and is spread far enough, people have to live a lie, live in fear, live in shame, and that is not healthy. I believe that the right to live free from persecution is the most important value. Certainly much more important than giving these disgusting bigots a platform because a 200 year old document says to, and for no other reason.

There is no excuse for defending this kind of hate and we should start thinking outside the box a little bit. But you Americans refuse to budge on your dogmatic, absolutist positions, so this is really a waste of my time, wouldn't you agree?




"As long as laws stick to outlawing hate speech against things people cannot control, I'm in favor."

So you want someone in the government to decide what's "hate speech"?    How do they determine what is "hate speech" and what is political debate?

Sounds like you have little issue with sacrificing free speech to protect people from what some government official is going to determine might be "hate speech".

What is I say, "young black males have a statistically high probability to be involved in the criminal justice system", is that hate speech, or is that a factual statement?  Who should determine this?




It's an opinion, as you do not specify how much "high" means. If you said more likely than whites then it would be a fact, much in part due to racial profiling.




So is that "opinion" hate speech?  You are saying the opinion is incorrect because of racial profiling, therefore a misleading opinion could very well be deemed "hate speech", should I turn myself in at the police station?


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Shins]
    #19308106 - 12/21/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Dude you're having trouble distinguishing speech from action. Learn the difference.



No, I have a clear understanding of the two, and clearly differntiated between the two in the post you have responded too--why not respond to the actual points I made, or at least submit an argument towards how I have confused speech with action, rather than just leave a blanket statement that challenged my post without actually challenging anything.

Are you not understanding how research into how past genocides have developed and occurred has directly led to the understanding that hate speech is an integral part of the process?

Why not challenge this connection I am proposing instead? Because right now, your argument is weak.


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InvisibleQuawonk
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Shins]
    #19308107 - 12/21/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
So talking about race is hate speech?

so then lets ban the of science of biology and genetics.

this my point, restricting thought and speech restricts human innovation development.

I can't believe I need to explain this.




And I can't believe that you equated science and genetics to hate speech based on race. Seeing as how you ignored every other point I made, I can see that trying to have a reasoned discussion with you will be as constructive as trying to have a reasoned discussion with a hammer.


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OfflineJonnyBtreed
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Quawonk]
    #19308128 - 12/21/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quawonk said:
Quote:

JonnyBtreed said:Who paved the way for the rights of homosexual people again? Russia perhaps? lol




How about my my freedom-hating country of Canada? And almost 10 years ago, too, before it even really became an issue.

Massachusetts did it in 2004.

"lol" indeed. I honestly did laugh out loud when I read that. Thank you for that. Felt good.

Quote:

Most Americans don't give a shit what gays, blacks, whites, indians, whatever want to do.




Funny how when it's put to a vote (outrageous that a basic human rights issue like this can be put to popular vote in the first place) it always seems to fail. Why is that?

You tell me we elected a black man president two times in a row. Seems your logic fails there.

Quote:

We are big on free speech here in the States. If you couldn't tell.




Oh believe me, I can tell. Replace "free" with "hate" and even more so.

There you go with more of that anti-American hate talk.

Quote:

Whether people support HIS RIGHT to say it, or whether they support WHAT HE SAID are two very different issues. You seem to feel that people shouldn't have the right to say hurtful things. Which is bullshit. We have the right to say whatever we want




It's not saying "hurtful things". It's not like simply calling someone a poopyhead. This is a prolonged campaign of hate, that has been institutionalized and embedded into the minds of the people and it incites violence and intolerance as Patlal said above. Surely you can see the difference.

I can't, once you make legislation for one thing, many more will follow.I will never agree with outlawing ANY type of free speech. Sorry.

Quote:

we've gotten many things accomplished that other countries couldn't because of this right.




Yes! Congratulations on legalizing gay marriage! Great first step! ... oh wait.

MA - 2004 - Thanks.

Quote:

By the way, it's sounds an awful lot like you're grouping all Americans together and calling us narrow minded conservatives who can never admit to being wrong. Sounds an awful

lot like hate speech to me... Hmmm weird.




I call it like I see it and this thread certainly does nothing to convince me otherwise.

And again, hate speech is about things people cannot control. You can control your dogmatic thinking. All it takes is the will.




Your message is so facepalm I'm just floored. I can't believe you can't see how hypocritical you're being. Ragging non stop on Americans as a whole. You being a racist while at the same time condemning discrimination. Take a look in the mirror dude.

And what if someone "can't control" being a racist (like yourself). By your own words that would imply that he is free from blame right?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19308130 - 12/21/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Dude you're having trouble distinguishing speech from action. Learn the difference.



No, I have a clear understanding of the two, and clearly differntiated between the two in the post you have responded too--why not respond to the actual points I made, or at least submit an argument towards how I have confused speech with action, rather than just leave a blanket statement that challenged my post without actually challenging anything.

Are you not understanding how research into how past genocides have developed and occurred has directly led to the understanding that hate speech is an integral part of the process?

Why not challenge this connection I am proposing instead? Because right now, your argument is weak.




"hate speech is an integral part of the process"

That's impossible to ever prove, there are so many factors that go into genocide.

Most "hate speech" (99.999%) never involves a act of violence, so where is this correlation?  It's not there.


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InvisibleQuawonk
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: JonnyBtreed]
    #19308145 - 12/21/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JonnyBtreed said:
Your message is so facepalm I'm just floored. I can't believe you can't see how hypocritical you're being. Ragging non stop on Americans as a whole. You being a racist while at the same time condemning discrimination. Take a look in the mirror dude.

And what if someone "can't control" being a racist (like yourself). By your own words that would imply that he is free from blame right?




RE: MA in 2004. So you're 1/50th of the way there. Congrats! And electing a black man president. Does his skin color really matter? Who's the racist here?

Nothing but insults left. A telltale sign of a person who lost a debate. It happens all the time, don't worry. Rationality wins debates, dogma loses. Learn the lesson and move on.

Better luck next time.

Adieu.


Edited by Quawonk (12/21/13 01:56 PM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: qman]
    #19308151 - 12/21/13 01:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"hate speech is an integral part of the process"

That's impossible to ever prove, there are so many factors that go into genocide.

Most "hate speech" (99.999%) never involves a act of violence, so where is this correlation?  It's not there.



Yes, anything outside of the hard sciences is impossible to 'prove'--but this does not mean that studies haven't been undertaken, nor that evidence strongly suggestive of the role hate speech has in genocide hasn't been found.

In fact, I'm willing to go out on a limb here to say that there is more evidence backing up hate speech as having no redeeming value in society, than there is for your '99.999%' figure that you probably just made up on the spot.


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OfflineJonnyBtreed
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Re: Duck Dynasty [Re: Quawonk]
    #19308176 - 12/21/13 02:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quawonk said:
Quote:

JonnyBtreed said:
Your message is so facepalm I'm just floored. I can't believe you can't see how hypocritical you're being. Ragging non stop on Americans as a whole. You being a racist while at the same time condemning discrimination. Take a look in the mirror dude.

And what if someone "can't control" being a racist (like yourself). By your own words that would imply that he is free from blame right?




RE: MA in 2004. So you're 1/50th of the way there. Congrats! And electing a black man president. Does his skin color really matter? Who's the racist here?

Nothing but insults left. A telltale sign of a person who lost a debate. It happens all the time, don't worry. Rationality wins debates, dogma loses. Learn the lesson and move on.

Better luck next time.

Adieu.




What the fuck are you talking about! You said when you put it to a vote, Americans don't choose the minority, and that is false. We chose a minority two times in a row, for the most important job in our country. That is why I brought it up.

Where and how did I insult you? You've been the only one throwing insults here so by your own argument you've once again shown yourself to be the loser in this debate. I would love a quote of some of these "dogmatic" posts you're referring to. You are by definition a racist for lumping all Americans in the same group. Which you've said about a dozen times. What does living in America have to do with how I think of something. You sir, are a racist.


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