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psyconaught
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Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage 1
#19305813 - 12/21/13 12:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So not only should we have a $15 minimum wage, but we should also have a mimim earning requirement for people who own business's! So if anyone starts a business they should be REQUIRED to make at least $45,000 a year!
Oh wait... thats not how economics works... A required earnings amount for business owners doesn't work because you cannot guarantee that business will produce that much value. Much like not every employee is worth $15 an hour of productivity.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19305825 - 12/21/13 12:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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yeah i was like, how the fuck would that even work?
everyone who starts a business is guaranteed a salary? fuck that
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19305837 - 12/21/13 12:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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yep, satire my man... satire
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19305857 - 12/21/13 12:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think minimum wage should be $100,000 / hour.
I mean if were just pulling arbitrary numbers out of our asses why not make it more?
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psyconaught
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Shins]
#19305876 - 12/21/13 12:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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well its only fair, i mean less that $100,000 isn't a living wage.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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starfire_xes
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Shins]
#19305881 - 12/21/13 12:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: I think minimum wage should be $100,000 / hour.
I mean if were just pulling arbitrary numbers out of our asses why not make it more?
that's not fair. If minimum wage is $100,000 then engineers with degrees should be guaranteed $500,000 a year.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: starfire_xes]
#19305893 - 12/21/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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and they shouldn't have to work, because work is tough man!
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starfire_xes
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19305934 - 12/21/13 12:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: and they shouldn't have to work, because work is tough man!
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InfiniteToker
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: starfire_xes]
#19305961 - 12/21/13 12:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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eliminate money and everyone be paid in their choice of sex, booze, and all foreseeable forms of pleasure that doesn't harm another lifeform negatively = nirvana,bliss,etc....
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"I'm chilling in a room with a view, there's always room for improvement; so i grab my coat and go and prove it"-Method Man
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: InfiniteToker] 1
#19306935 - 12/21/13 08:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Price fixing sucks!
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Gilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19307204 - 12/21/13 10:02 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: well its only fair, i mean less that $100,000 isn't a living wage.
Agreed for the good of the collective everyone must have a middle class american lifestyle or there will be hell to pay!!
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Shins
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Gilgamesh18]
#19307829 - 12/21/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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And hell why even work or produce at all? $100,000 / hour automatically.
I mean what can possibly go wrong?
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InfiniteToker
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Shins]
#19309849 - 12/21/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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1 hour paid "naptime" similiar to naptime in Kindergartan
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"I'm chilling in a room with a view, there's always room for improvement; so i grab my coat and go and prove it"-Method Man
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Echro
Psychedelic Nihilist



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: InfiniteToker]
#19313370 - 12/22/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Swiss to vote on sweet minimum monthly income: $2,800 You guys hear about this shit? How long do you think that'll last?
-------------------- "People who take Life seriously are going to find it slipping through their fingers in a very maddening fashion." ~ Terence McKenna "You still want to go on living on your knees. But I have understood life. And anyone who understands life cannot live on his knees." ~ Renzo Novatore
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Echro]
#19313383 - 12/22/13 07:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Echro said: Swiss to vote on sweet minimum monthly income: $2,800 You guys hear about this shit? How long do you think that'll last? 
hey man, switzerland has some smart government policies. (if they're the country i have in mind) lets see how it plays out.
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Echro
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19313418 - 12/22/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'd imagine a smaller land mass would be easier to centrally plan than a bigger one, so I can't contest Switzerland's ability to do so or not. I'm just wondering how this will play out in the long run, as long term effects are an important consideration in economic affairs. I'm also wondering just how much of the money to be redistributed will be coming out of the taxes from foreigners' Swiss bank accounts (if that's still a thing in Switzerland).
Eventually the scheme will bankrupt. Legislature doesn't have the same flexibility to respond to rising costs & loses as market forces do. The country will probably face several tax hikes & austerity measures down the road if that passes. & if the recent protests across the globe are any indication, once the Swiss populace is accustomed to a steady income they will not readily accept austerity, & Switzerland will probably end up needing a bailout from the ECB.
I can't say that all with certainty, mind you. But from my general economic knowledge I think that is what is most likely to happen.
Edited by Echro (12/22/13 08:10 PM)
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Cannashroom
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Echro]
#19337501 - 12/28/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well this was tried before in Canada as an experiment....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome
Quote:
Mincome was an experimental Canadian basic income project that was held in Dauphin, Manitoba during the 1970s. The project, funded jointly by the Manitoba provincial government and the Canadian federal government, began with a news release on February 22, 1974, and was closed down in 1979. The purpose of this experiment was to determine whether a guaranteed, unconditional annual income caused disincentive to work for the recipients, and how great such a disincentive would be. It allowed every family unit to receive a minimum cash benefit. The results showed a modest impact on labor markets, with working hours dropping one percent for men, three percent for wives, and five percent for unmarried women.[1] However, some have argued these drops may be artificially low because participants knew the guaranteed income was temporary.[2] These decreases in hours worked may be seen as offset by the opportunity cost of more time for family and education. Mothers spent more time rearing newborns, and the educational impacts are regarded as a success. Students in these families showed higher test scores and lower dropout rates. There was also an increase in adults continuing education.[3][4] A final report was never issued, but Dr. Evelyn Forget (/fɔrˈʒeɪ/) conducted an analysis of the program in 2009 which was published in 2011.[4][5] She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less because they weren't under as much pressure to support their families, which resulted in more teenagers graduating. In addition, those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did. Forget found that in the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 percent, with fewer incidences of work-related injuries, and fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse.[6] Additionally, the period saw a reduction in rates of psychiatric hospitalization, and in the number of mental illness-related consultations with health professionals.[7][8]
So contrary to what a lot of people will tell you about giving money to poor people...
If you supplement to a minimum wage most workers will not work less. Only new and expecting mothers (who spend that time raising their child) and teenagers (who spend that time in school) actually work less. And the result of this is a more educated, richer and prepared work force. Rather than blow this money on shit they didn't need, most adults used the extra cash to get ahead, they got more educated, started a business or invested. As a result of all of this there were fewer hospital visits and a healthier population.
Really rich people don't want these benefits for the working class because it helps them get ahead in life. It's not about poor people being lazy, its about keeping them poor.
-------------------- "A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." Albert Einstein
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zappaisgod
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Cannashroom]
#19337838 - 12/28/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Cannashroom said: Well this was tried before in Canada as an experiment....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome
Quote:
Mincome was an experimental Canadian basic income project that was held in Dauphin, Manitoba during the 1970s. The project, funded jointly by the Manitoba provincial government and the Canadian federal government, began with a news release on February 22, 1974, and was closed down in 1979.
The purpose of this experiment was to determine whether a guaranteed, unconditional annual income caused disincentive to work for the recipients, and how great such a disincentive would be. It allowed every family unit to receive a minimum cash benefit. The results showed a modest impact on labor markets, with working hours dropping one percent for men, three percent for wives, and five percent for unmarried women.[1] However, some have argued these drops may be artificially low because participants knew the guaranteed income was temporary.[2] These decreases in hours worked may be seen as offset by the opportunity cost of more time for family and education. Mothers spent more time rearing newborns, and the educational impacts are regarded as a success. Students in these families showed higher test scores and lower dropout rates. There was also an increase in adults continuing education.[3][4] A final report was never issued, but Dr. Evelyn Forget (/fɔrˈʒeɪ/) conducted an analysis of the program in 2009 which was published in 2011.[4][5] She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less because they weren't under as much pressure to support their families, which resulted in more teenagers graduating. In addition, those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did. Forget found that in the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 percent, with fewer incidences of work-related injuries, and fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse.[6] Additionally, the period saw a reduction in rates of psychiatric hospitalization, and in the number of mental illness-related consultations with health professionals.[7][8]
So contrary to what a lot of people will tell you about giving money to poor people...
If you supplement to a minimum wage most workers will not work less. Only new and expecting mothers (who spend that time raising their child) and teenagers (who spend that time in school) actually work less. And the result of this is a more educated, richer and prepared work force. Rather than blow this money on shit they didn't need, most adults used the extra cash to get ahead, they got more educated, started a business or invested. As a result of all of this there were fewer hospital visits and a healthier population.
Really rich people don't want these benefits for the working class because it helps them get ahead in life. It's not about poor people being lazy, its about keeping them poor.
If it was so great how come they stopped it?
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19338066 - 12/28/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: So not only should we have a $15 minimum wage, but we should also have a mimim earning requirement for people who own business's! So if anyone starts a business they should be REQUIRED to make at least $45,000 a year!
Oh wait... thats not how economics works... A required earnings amount for business owners doesn't work because you cannot guarantee that business will produce that much value. Much like not every employee is worth $15 an hour of productivity.
nice, examples made of the most extreme cases and with sarcasm 
You know, if every extreme example is justification that someone else arguing with you is wrong, then how about this?
a) gays shouldn't be married, if enough H.I.V. is passed around a mutant airborne strain might develop killing the entire country. We all know it's been proven SOME GAYS have AIDs
b) any time there is an area where there is a shark attack that year, no one should be allowed to swim in the water at all for 3 years. All beaches should be off limits, that way there is no possibility of shark attacks. After all, one example is surely good enough reason to not set a toe in the water right?
c) no one should work in hospitals anymore. Nurses/doctors/surgeons should be private and work with individual families. After all, in hospitals, certain bacteria mutate from too many antibiotics. And workers in these places can carry the extremely resistant strain, one day a strain could mutate that could kill all people. All hospitals should be shut down, after all extreme examples are the best way to make a point, raising the minimum wage .05 cents could completely destroy capitalism as we know it, why employees could be making $25 an hour minimum wage. What a disaster, no one could afford that, extreme inflation is a possibility.
d) I think no one should have a private pet anymore, they should all be wild. Private pets have been known to get rabies, and if every person in the world contracted rabies, we would all die. What are people thinking 
e) dude honestly, I'm thinking veils, as in the bhurka. No one needs to be exposed to sunlight. Radiation causes cancer, and anyone with bad pigment passes down genetics that make a person very susceptible to cancer. If these genes were to dominate the population, then eventually 100% of the population could contract skin cancer, even if it's hundreds of years in the future, that is the end of humanity. Not to mention, I think all cities below a certain line of the equator should be evacuated and deserted and off limits, such as Florida. Too much UV down there. In fact anything that uses fossil fuels should automatically be banned, after all we know co2 kills ozone which protects us from suns harmful rays
f) as long as you are bringing up the possibility of businesses not being guaranteed to make a profit at all, why don't we get rid of private leasing agreements? After all, if every person who asked for land to start a business was given it for free, lot's of businesses would exist, and not making a profit at first wouldn't be so detrimental to economics.
Ok, we are on the same page here? Extreme examples must be used to show the retarded rationality of people who possibly think that it's fair to have an open option of increasing other peoples lively hood at the risk of all Americans, considering that by god the minimum wage tomorrow could be $500 an hour! Complete and total economic anarchy! OH MY GOD
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Shins]
#19338103 - 12/28/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: I think minimum wage should be $100,000 / hour.
I mean if were just pulling arbitrary numbers out of our asses why not make it more?
How about $10,000,000 an hour? I mean the taxes alone would fix the federal deficit in just a few short months
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Cannashroom
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
#19338104 - 12/28/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Politicians changed, they didn't support the program anymore. It was shut down and the data warehoused. Seems the people who believed that it would lead to people not working didn't want the experiment completed and it wasn't. Then they hid that data away. They decided better not let the experiment finish and analyze the data, we should trash it all. This is an analysis done much later on data not actually collected in the experiment. The govt refuses to open the 2000 boxes of data it collected, this was done off of other data sets.
Mincome should be endorsed by those who want small government.
Instead of giving money as EI, or providing all these social programs, everything is replaced by mincome. All the bullshit government bureaucracy can be greatly reduced.
Rather than supporting a non-producing citizen by giving them food, health care, and etc when they are struggling, give them the opportunity to become a productive citizen.
In the nanny state with no mincome these leachers are kept alive by others, but still have limited opportunity to get out of that situation.
In the mincome scenario they are given an opportunity.
A. Don't work and take the 20K a year and live off the government
B. Use the extra money while working and get skills/education to make over 20K/year themselves.
Well most people go the route of option B. In this manner people who may be leechers for life are turned into productive citizens.
Giving them money will let them cultivate skills like investing or getting educations. Just feeding them keeps them stupid and dependent.
-------------------- "A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." Albert Einstein
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psyconaught
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19338110 - 12/28/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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you think $15 an hour and $45,000 a year are extreme examples of wages? shit if you think thats extreme you must be making pennies.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: InfiniteToker]
#19338161 - 12/28/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMHUNTSMAN said: eliminate money and everyone be paid in their choice of sex, booze, and all foreseeable forms of pleasure that doesn't harm another lifeform negatively = nirvana,bliss,etc....
I wish, I hate currency. Although currency makes trade much simpler and quicker and more efficient, it's also too easily manipulated and corrupted. I don't know how TRADE would work with highly efficient industrial companies such as ones that manufacture vehicles for transportation. Perhaps government subsidies would apply, and give everyone the necessary approval to be given a car. But no that sounds like communism, then you could only drive communist cars, and never have better cars produced better and engineered so society moves forward.
But otherwise, I'd imagine trade still being the best currency around. No interest rates no government regulation just straight up 50 logs in agreement for enough meat to cook for two days. But then I wonder what if currency could exist and the government just doesn't control who prints it or regulates it or anything along such lines. It'd be difficult to regulate who could make currency and along what specifications the currency created would be made, but at least you wouldn't have laws and regulations on certain industries to stop people from making money certain ways. People would make money.
Sadly that'd never work. Unless currency was still produced by some sort of metal standard to trade such as silver or something more abundant I suppose
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Shins]
#19338172 - 12/28/13 06:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: And hell why even work or produce at all? $100,000 / hour automatically.
I mean what can possibly go wrong?
Here is a good question, why does government have to get involved at all. Taxes could be some form of tangible asset taken for trade or production value instead of money. Do you feel the government should tell you what is and isn't productive? Do you feel if you chop 2000 pieces of wood in one day, that is isn't enough because uncle Sam says so or that it's too much because uncle Sam says so and there isn't enough demand for that much wood?
I think production is #1, and currency comes second only as a representation. Currency after all, is in intangible asset. But who could confuse the two anyway? After all, money is supposed to be represented by tangible measurements for the value of the money. If it wasn't, then could a government owe tens of trillions of dollars it borrows from itself and still be able to function and produce on a normal level? Oh man that's like saying moneys value is created by the government all together it couldn't be
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19338201 - 12/28/13 06:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: you think $15 an hour and $45,000 a year are extreme examples of wages? shit if you think thats extreme you must be making pennies.
You were comparing them in a minimum wage scenario. I don't think a single state has a $15 minimum wage, and by the way $15 an hour is still only 30k a year unless you count over time. Not close enough to 45k a year for that to be a valid analysis especially not when using this is an example for an extreme situation that minimum wage must be paid
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
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psyconaught
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19338322 - 12/28/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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i never stated $15 an hour = 45k a year. Try again?
In case you weren't aware there are protests across the country headed by fast food employees calling for a 15 an hour min. wage. And Washington City just raised the min. wage to $15
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19338804 - 12/28/13 08:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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How is the economy doing in Washington city with the $15 an hour wages? Businesses going bankrupt left and right? Anyway I don't know about $15/hr but I'll tell you $7 is like stone age for the rest of the country and I can't imagine a business that can't pay $8 an hour being a very functional business anyway.
The best businesses survive on millions a year, and if they hired a ton of employees they knew what they were getting into when they created a company so large in the first place, a risky situation. Big profits = big risks. As to many peoples arguments that higher wages equals higher prices, well I disagree. I've seen pot and pan sets for almost $200 when it's just shitty stainless steel. People charge what others are willing to pay for, much more so then a few $ extra an hour per employee cost of production. I'm sure CEOs RAISE the prices with THE EXCUSE that the prices are higher because of wages, but anyone who watches the market sees prices change based on many other factors mostly due to supply and demand. For example most places I go to still sell snickers bars for $1 plus tax. That is a price that has remained fairly constant for 30 years, despite the fact that 30 years ago in 1983 the minimum wage was around $4 an hour.
The people who really really get hurt by these constant changes are very small businesses. But honestly I think if you can't survive you shouldn't be around. As I said a REALLY SMALL business would have like max 4 employees at one time. So we are talking the difference between $7 x 8 x 5 x 4 x 4 and $8 x 8 x 5 x 4 x 4
and we get
$7 = $4480 per month in wages $8 = $5120 per month in wages
So you are telling me that a business that can afford paying $600 less a month with all other expenses utilities, lease, etc. in wages is SERIOUSLY PROFITING while the one paying $600 more is going bankrupt?
This sounds like a similar story people make up when they can't pay a mortgage "oh the car payments are killing us which is why we can't pay $500 a month mortgage but if it was $400 a month we'd be great"
yeah

right
Next Zappa will pitch in about how much money guys like Donald Trump lose with thousands of employees every time the wage goes from $4 to $5. Well what's funny is most of those billionaires can STILL afford helicopters on top of their boat etc. no matter what but complain about these changes more then anyone "oh hundreds of employees at an extra $1 an hour equals millions more per year oh no what will I ever do?"
It's sad Donald Trump has like less then 200 employees ever, most of these ass holes would just use machines if they could fire every employee I guarantee you that, but there are tons of supporters crying over how hard their life is. Remember the 70s when inflation went heavy and the wage went from like $1 an hour to $3 an hour in just 6 or 7 years? Raising the minimum wage doesn't hurt anybody, what really hurts is when they stagnate raising the minimum wage so much that all of a sudden they do studies and find common house holds living in poverty and decide to raise it all at once to make up for years of neglect.
I'm telling you, every two years they raise the minimum wage by .30 an hour no matter what, and you wouldn't ever have this problem. Things would balance out
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psyconaught
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19338946 - 12/28/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Raising the minimum wage doesn't hurt anybody,
This statement is so full of shit it almost hurts. Raising the minimum wage hurts small business the most. Lets look at some numbers: Currently the federal minimum wage is 7.25, the democrats are now supporting an increase to 10.10 an hour.
7.25 x 40 x 4 x 12 = 13,920 a year 10.10 x 40 x 4 x 12 = 19,392 a year
And lets use your example of 4 employees. With the above numbers currently an employer would be spending $55,680 a year on payroll. With the increase it will be $77,568 a year. That is a $21,888 increase in payroll per year. Small business's typically operate at small profit matins so nearly 22 thousand dollars will not just be absorbed. Either employees will be laid off or the price of goods will increase. And these numbers are strictly wages, they don't count other costs that go along with employing people, insurance, etc.
The Wal Mart higher ups actually support a min wage increase because they know they will be able to absorb the cost while smaller mom and pop shops will not, thus putting them out of business. Proponents of high min. wage are supporters of big business and enemies of local economies and small operations. Ironic huh?
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Echro
Psychedelic Nihilist



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19338986 - 12/28/13 09:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: The Wal Mart higher ups actually support a min wage increase because they know they will be able to absorb the cost while smaller mom and pop shops will not, thus putting them out of business. Proponents of high min. wage are supporters of big business and enemies of local economies and small operations. Ironic huh?
QFT. Minimum wage is just a barrier to market entry. & it's a price floor. Price floors create surpluses. In this case a displaced, labor surplus.
-------------------- "People who take Life seriously are going to find it slipping through their fingers in a very maddening fashion." ~ Terence McKenna "You still want to go on living on your knees. But I have understood life. And anyone who understands life cannot live on his knees." ~ Renzo Novatore
Edited by Echro (12/28/13 09:18 PM)
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19340779 - 12/29/13 09:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
Raising the minimum wage doesn't hurt anybody,
This statement is so full of shit it almost hurts. Raising the minimum wage hurts small business the most. Lets look at some numbers: Currently the federal minimum wage is 7.25, the democrats are now supporting an increase to 10.10 an hour.
7.25 x 40 x 4 x 12 = 13,920 a year 10.10 x 40 x 4 x 12 = 19,392 a year
And lets use your example of 4 employees. With the above numbers currently an employer would be spending $55,680 a year on payroll. With the increase it will be $77,568 a year. That is a $21,888 increase in payroll per year. Small business's typically operate at small profit matins so nearly 22 thousand dollars will not just be absorbed. Either employees will be laid off or the price of goods will increase. And these numbers are strictly wages, they don't count other costs that go along with employing people, insurance, etc.
The Wal Mart higher ups actually support a min wage increase because they know they will be able to absorb the cost while smaller mom and pop shops will not, thus putting them out of business. Proponents of high min. wage are supporters of big business and enemies of local economies and small operations. Ironic huh?
It's a risk to start any business, you know that. People who start a business and hire employees need to be prepared for unforeseen cost rises to their over head. I don't believe the idea of being a "business owner" should include this feeling as though they don't have to expect sudden changes dramatically in lease/taxes/wages/whole sale costs etc.
But to be fair I believe that costs for services are as high as they can get right now, and minimum wage is supposed to meet interest rates not set interest rates. My dad had a friend who painted the inside of his house recently and charged $1400 and it took two days but in reality it should have taken one she just took her damn time. If this lady had 3 customers a week charging that much she'd be making $4200 a week, easily enough to pay the extra $21,000 at the end of the year. And if she wasn't competent enough to make that much then she lacks in sales skills, something a business owner should not be shy in. Plus she could easily remove one employee and pay $21,000 less per year.
Besides that I still feel your numbers are arbitrary. Where do you come up with a jump from $7.25 an hour to $10.10 an hour? Why because one county in one city made a dramatic wage increase? Ok but when ever has the federal government raised the minimum wage $3 extra an hour in one year? They changed the MW from $5 to $7 when Obama took office because it had been in the $5 range for over 20 years just about. Before that previously GB had raised it from approx $5.10 to $5.60 roughly along those lines. Where do you see the proposal to set the national rate at $10.10 an hour?
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psyconaught
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19341285 - 12/29/13 12:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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how are the numbers arbitrary at all? Currently the federal min. wage is 7.25 an hour. And Obama the the Democrats are supporting a 10.10 min. wage. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/24/democrats-obama-minimum-wage_n_4498517.html
I'm going to assume you don't have any business experience, because it shows pretty clearly. Small business's operate at extremely small margins, therefore 22k would be a HUGE increase in the cost of doing business. A business owner obviously takes a risk when starting a business, but how can they prepare for arbitrary wage hikes and new taxes from the government? I agree if you are an incompetent business owner you should go out of business. However the government imposing huge increases in the cost of doing business and putting said owner out of business says more of the government getting in the way than the competency of the business owner.
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19342513 - 12/29/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: how are the numbers arbitrary at all? Currently the federal min. wage is 7.25 an hour. And Obama the the Democrats are supporting a 10.10 min. wage. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/24/democrats-obama-minimum-wage_n_4498517.html
I'm going to assume you don't have any business experience, because it shows pretty clearly. Small business's operate at extremely small margins, therefore 22k would be a HUGE increase in the cost of doing business. A business owner obviously takes a risk when starting a business, but how can they prepare for arbitrary wage hikes and new taxes from the government? I agree if you are an incompetent business owner you should go out of business. However the government imposing huge increases in the cost of doing business and putting said owner out of business says more of the government getting in the way than the competency of the business owner.
what are you, a Doctor? Lawyer? Engineer? Have you ever started a company? I mean a real one with location and lease and claim taxes etc. I don't mean doing web sites or a "private consultant." Not everyone can start a business. Paying people 25% more from $7.25 to $10.10 is a risk all people have to be prepared for. It's actually kind of lame to question this I don't know if you talk to your grandparents a lot ever or maybe you are only 15 but back in the day, in a different generation of generations, people didn't necessarily have to go to school to get a good job. They stayed at a company long enough and depended on raises. 25% really is no big deal if you understand people expect to retire one day 25% is really horse shit diddly.
For someone with a lot of business experience such as yourself, you sure are short on the idea of what a lender expects when they make a loan to a business owner, small or not. "umm, sir the only way I'd default on this loan is if the government forced a minimum 25% wage increase for every single employee, then I'd have to claim bankruptcy and default on the loan, and oh boy, could you try to give me a loan with no collateral and keep the interest rates the same no matter what? It's not my fault that me as a business owner, would be expected to forsee risks and have competency as to the responsibility of what I am actually running every day. A great place with great product/and or service and fantastic customer service. But the truth is really I just mostly do paper work and don't train anyone at my business, I only drive by it once every 7 weeks, in fact I don't even train the managers, I only talk to people on the phone. So please treat me like I'm retarded before I get this loan and take into account the government is going to raise the minimum wage a few bucks and all that profit I'm bragging about wouldn't exist because all the lazy employees would be stealing all the profit not doing much you know except extremely repetitive and gruelling manual labour."
Sorry man, it doesn't work like that. This country was created by the idea of capitalism. Buying and selling. If a person owns a business and creates their own product good for them. If a person owns a business and does a service, the service should be top notch as to capitalize on getting maximum volume of clients. Otherwise if they buy whole sale and sell retail they take all the same risk any ass hole does and know long before they get into it what they are doing. If the country goes to shit because of a national minimum wage that is actually lower then the highest city minimum wage (which you said was $15 an hour) then so be it.
I don't care, I don't cry for those who only make 2% of their entire company profits which are only $10 billion a year, and therefore only take home $200,000,000 a year. Boo hoo hoo. A sad sob story. Oh but that's right, you are arguing that largest businesses will be hurt the least. But to answer your question I don't consider a wage raise by a few $ as EXTREME UNFORESEEN over head costs. The over head costs I see as being extremely unpredictable and extreme are things such as taxes, whole sale costs going up because of stock market speculation or in general government regulation, property costs, inspections, law suits, business competition etc.
Now you are going to tell me with a straight face that after all those unforeseen risks that one of the biggest pit falls a new business owner must risk fighting is a MINIMUM WAGE RAISE of a few $ an hour? Oh well, life is tough. Perhaps people can invent time machines and go back in time to the 1800s when millionaires had 93% less regulations to worry about and simply only had to worry about disease, no technology, primitive social laws, etc. But as many complaints as I hear about I'm almost starting to think this would be almost everyone's main preference. Do continue
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psyconaught
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel] 1
#19342571 - 12/29/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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what the fuck are you babbling about? I don't believe i've claimed any of those things. Will the country go to shit strictly because the min wage increase? No, but min wage going up creates barriers to entry, making it harder to start and operate a business. Shouldn't the government make it easier not harder to start a business? Less small business = shit economy. I couldnt care less about big corporations and their CEO's. I'm just able to recognize that more regulations actually hurt small business owners. A %25 payroll increase is an extreme burden to a small business operating on thin margins. Yes i have started many business's. None of them have been incorporated however, and some of them have been web based. But i guess that doesn't count as 'real' to you for some reason. Theres a reason i'm making 60+k a year having just graduated high school.
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starfire_xes
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19345507 - 12/30/13 08:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said:
It's a risk to start any business, you know that. People who start a business and hire employees need to be prepared for unforeseen cost rises to their over head. I don't believe the idea of being a "business owner" should include this feeling as though they don't have to expect sudden changes dramatically in lease/taxes/wages/whole sale costs etc.
You just stated one of the main reasons businesses aren't hiring much under the obama administration. The 'uncertainty', i.e. not knowing what its going to cost to run the business tomorrow because of government meddling, causes them to avoid expanding and wait for better days. why grow a business when a shitty government policy might suddenly come along and take your money?
Thanks for pointing out another of the inumerable ways the federal government hurts small business.
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Icyus
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: starfire_xes]
#19345508 - 12/30/13 08:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Should have a maximum salary of 1$.... there would be no more of this money bs..
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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Gilgamesh18
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Icyus] 1
#19345531 - 12/30/13 09:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icyus said: Should have a maximum salary of 1$.... there would be no more of this money bs..
yea and then highly skilled specialists can make as much as a braindead halfwit who flips burgers sounds like real progress to me
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starfire_xes
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Gilgamesh18] 1
#19345548 - 12/30/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:
Icyus said: Should have a maximum salary of 1$.... there would be no more of this money bs..
yea and then highly skilled specialists can make as much as a braindead halfwit who flips burgers sounds like real progress to me 
Why do you think they call themselves 'progressives' >
Until next time....forward.....
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: starfire_xes]
#19345777 - 12/30/13 10:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said:
Quote:
imachavel said:
It's a risk to start any business, you know that. People who start a business and hire employees need to be prepared for unforeseen cost rises to their over head. I don't believe the idea of being a "business owner" should include this feeling as though they don't have to expect sudden changes dramatically in lease/taxes/wages/whole sale costs etc.
You just stated one of the main reasons businesses aren't hiring much under the obama administration. The 'uncertainty', i.e. not knowing what its going to cost to run the business tomorrow because of government meddling, causes them to avoid expanding and wait for better days. why grow a business when a shitty government policy might suddenly come along and take your money?
Thanks for pointing out another of the inumerable ways the federal government hurts small business.
Right and my point is minimum wage is the least of it. Uneducated idiots are the highest of it imho. If people thought about what they buy and who they buy it from things would be different. I'm not talking about whether they shop at Walmart or not, I'm talking about whether they buy a house at an extra 100k just because it's closer to work.
Capitalism takes advantage of caveat emptor. If people were smarter and more demanding about the world they live in, it'd be very possible for minimum wage not to need to exist. People would "demand" that they pay cheaper for things by not buying expensive things and "demand" that they get paid more at jobs by not accepting shitty jobs. But the truth is because this is not a reality minimum wage is necessary, people would take $1 an hour if someone paid them that. The minimum wage unfortunately keeps our country as a 1st world country and keeps it from looking anything like Ecuador, a 3rd world country. It's a sad world, but I have no issue with minimum wage increases perhaps if it was increased to $17 an hour over night that'd bother me but a proposal to $10.10 an hour could easily be "bipartisan compromised" so to speak.
I see nothing wrong with $7.25 an hour going up to $7.95 an hour. I guess Obama just doesn't negotiate well and now all the rest of us have to hear massive complaints about how "minimum wage is wrong." Wake up man, go to a country like the Philippines I've been to several times where the government couldn't care less what someone gets paid. There are two classes, rich and very very poor. Of course you are right, no minimum wage doesn't stop the rich from getting richer. That I won't deny, but it does rip out the middle class that everyone claims exists so nicely on it's own. As though people do anything on their own without someone holding their hand these days. It is what it is
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: Icyus]
#19345789 - 12/30/13 10:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icyus said: Should have a maximum salary of 1$.... there would be no more of this money bs..
maximum salary of no more then $100,000,000 a year. I'd LOVE it. The world could suck it if they didn't agree, no one needs more then that much to live on personally anyway. And besides what the hell is everyone complaining about half these ass holes take billions out and put them into Swiss bank accounts anyway to avoid taxes. No one saw Wolf of Wall Street?
"so what would make you cooperate with the US government anyway? To allow an investigation of our money in your bank?"
"Well, if tanks roll up the Seine Crossing to take us over. We don't have to comply with the U.S., we have different laws here etc. the only laws Switzerland complies with are securities trading violations then we cooperate with a full investigation"
I mean cmon man is this discussion for real?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
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psyconaught
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel] 2
#19345813 - 12/30/13 10:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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your envy is showing. Someone making millions a year has no bearing on your life whatsoever. Someone else being wealthy does not infringe on your ability to become wealthy. Your attitude, and the liberal attitude, bears a striking resemblance to a psychotic ex girl friends. "If i can't have him no one can!!!!"
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19345849 - 12/30/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: your envy is showing. Someone making millions a year has no bearing on your life whatsoever. Someone else being wealthy does not infringe on your ability to become wealthy. Your attitude, and the liberal attitude, bears a striking resemblance to a psychotic ex girl friends. "If i can't have him no one can!!!!"
You gotta pull the liberal insult because you no longer have anything to argue with. Here I was thinking you were going to say "how can a cell phone provider provide in only 10 states and I can still get national coverage" which I was going to reply to.
And instead you pull the "liberal agenda" routine because you are running out of material to throw at me. Have you seen my sig? Honestly "the poor millionaires" routine 
I live a few blocks away from an area rated as being the #9 spot with the most expensive homes in the world in Florida, I probably know more millionaires then you. And I couldn't care less how rich or poor they are. But the fact is I know better then to think that a $1 or so wage increase will plummet their earnings. When you can afford boats bigger then most peoples homes I doubt much is going to change that. Oh well have it your way maybe if you bitch long enough they won't raise the minimum wage
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
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psyconaught
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19346133 - 12/30/13 12:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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i didn't reply to your cell phone statement because it was stupid. I made an observation about your attitude and noticed it happen to be similar to the liberal attitude

and i wouldn't be so sure, i live in silicon valley so its probably pretty even 
I have plenty of valid points against a min. wage and as i've pointed out numerous times now it has nothing to do with the 'poor millionaires' I'm against the min. wage because it hurts small business owners.
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psyconaught
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19346146 - 12/30/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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actually i do have a response to the cell phone statement. The fact that you think a government can create a free competitive market it laughable
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qman
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19346206 - 12/30/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19346369 - 12/30/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: i didn't reply to your cell phone statement because it was stupid. I made an observation about your attitude and noticed it happen to be similar to the liberal attitude

and i wouldn't be so sure, i live in silicon valley so its probably pretty even 
I have plenty of valid points against a min. wage and as i've pointed out numerous times now it has nothing to do with the 'poor millionaires' I'm against the min. wage because it hurts small business owners.


Well colour me purple you can't even understand I'm not liberal 
it's ok
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19346412 - 12/30/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: actually i do have a response to the cell phone statement. The fact that you think a government can create a free competitive market it laughable 
I think the government can create a free competitive market? Well shit, go to Libia there is like no government there, no competition, you might be a millionaire in two days 
Honestly I'm surprised you associate large business with "functioning free of government regulated competition." I don't think I've ever seen a poor person run as a politician and finance a campaign
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I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: qman]
#19346418 - 12/30/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2530798/French-court-gives-ahead-Hollandes-75-tax-Plans-rate-earnings-one-million-euros-lead-mass-exodus-celebrities-businesses.html#ixzz2ouZFj43L
France going to put a 75% tax on income over $1 million Euros, talk about crazy.
Yeah but this is nothing, compared to $10.10 an hour. Think of the destruction France will seem like a joke
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught] 1
#19347608 - 12/30/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: So not only should we have a $15 minimum wage, but we should also have a mimim earning requirement for people who own business's! So if anyone starts a business they should be REQUIRED to make at least $45,000 a year!
Oh wait... thats not how economics works... A required earnings amount for business owners doesn't work because you cannot guarantee that business will produce that much value. Much like not every employee is worth $15 an hour of productivity.
You don't have an analogous situation here. A person has to convince a business that they are worth their salary in order to be hired and then that person provides already-agreed upon services to that business. You don't have to convince whoever would be making up the difference between actual earnings and the 45K in this scenario that your business plan would be worth that much, nor do you have any requirement that whoever is paying the difference (the government? who? That's actually probably the main reason why this analogy is completely meaningless) receive compensation for their risk exposure. I get what you're trying to say but you are in no way supporting your position with this argument.
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll - say 100x. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19347624 - 12/30/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#19347654 - 12/30/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
Let's give all the fry cooks and sandwich artists or whatever they're called now at all the McDonald's on the west side of the country the day off. Then let's give all the VP's and heads of marketing and operations on the east side of the country the day off. See which half of the country stops getting its Big Macs first. Even you, Randian Superman that you are, couldn't do shit if you didn't have grunts.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19347735 - 12/30/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
Let's give all the fry cooks and sandwich artists or whatever they're called now at all the McDonald's on the west side of the country the day off. Then let's give all the VP's and heads of marketing and operations on the east side of the country the day off. See which half of the country stops getting its Big Macs first. Even you, Randian Superman that you are, couldn't do shit if you didn't have grunts.
What nonsense. By the way, I was a grunt. Sometimes I still do the grunt work. Here's the difference between me and the grunts. I can do the other stuff, none of them can. I sell the jobs I bid the jobs I do the tax shit I go in and direct a varying amount of people depending on what is necessary and there is not one person I have ever met who can frame like I can. I can get a grunt off the corner. I can't find another me.
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#19347913 - 12/30/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Finish the entire job without your grunts, in the same amount of time, with the same profit margin. You certainly do things that other people in the company can't, but you can't do it all without them. Otherwise you wouldn't've hired them, would you? Not only that, but it's not true that you're not replaceable. Your skill set is not unique - you're not the only construction company in the country, are you? Are the rest of them ownerless?
There are certainly people who are more economically valuable than others. But when you're a top-level exec in a company with thousands of employees or more, your worth is tied much less to the actual market value of the goods and services you provide and more to the political position you hold within the company and your ability to game your relationship with the people who call the shots. In the most perverse cases that's either the same person, or there is a clear quid pro quo relationship between all the head honchos that is not tied to the company's actual economic incentives.
Maybe this plan will screw over the handful of truly exceptional individuals whose ideas and skills are absolutely integral to the success of every person tied to them, but for every Ray Kroc or Sam Walton or Bill Gates in the world there's - by virtue of how exceptional they are! - thousands of people whose lives would be improved by lessening the difference in the economic value they create and the paycheck they take home. So I am okay with people like you getting boned.
And perhaps even more importantly, not only are your Supermen vastly outnumbered by their base-level employees, they're also vastly outnumbered by the leeches near the top of the chain whose main talents are the ability to recognize and capitalize off of situations where people lack the knowledge or the initiative to seize what's rightfully theirs. Here's a tip: when Tyco can replace without losing a cent in profit a president who was freely allowed to steal 150 million dollars, you are living in a world with a complete disconnect between what your figureheads are actually worth and the value attached to them by the economic moralism you mistakenly support.
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19347924 - 12/30/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
psyconaught said: So not only should we have a $15 minimum wage, but we should also have a mimim earning requirement for people who own business's! So if anyone starts a business they should be REQUIRED to make at least $45,000 a year!
Oh wait... thats not how economics works... A required earnings amount for business owners doesn't work because you cannot guarantee that business will produce that much value. Much like not every employee is worth $15 an hour of productivity.
You don't have an analogous situation here. A person has to convince a business that they are worth their salary in order to be hired and then that person provides already-agreed upon services to that business. You don't have to convince whoever would be making up the difference between actual earnings and the 45K in this scenario that your business plan would be worth that much, nor do you have any requirement that whoever is paying the difference (the government? who? That's actually probably the main reason why this analogy is completely meaningless) receive compensation for their risk exposure. I get what you're trying to say but you are in no way supporting your position with this argument.
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll - say 100x. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
Ok I agree. I don't see how I'm not supporting my argument to say that a person who is responsible for an entire business and ask for loans should have the experience and responsibility to have foresight on wage increase laws. But otherwise I completely agree with you, especially this statement, which is what I was trying to emphasize
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws.
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imachavel
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
#19347927 - 12/30/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
if 100% of the population had ambition, who would do the hard work?
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19347936 - 12/30/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: Finish the entire job without your grunts, in the same amount of time, with the same profit margin. You certainly do things that other people in the company can't, but you can't do it all without them. Otherwise you wouldn't've hired them, would you? Not only that, but it's not true that you're not replaceable. Your skill set is not unique - you're not the only construction company in the country, are you? Are the rest of them ownerless?
There are certainly people who are more economically valuable than others. But when you're a top-level exec in a company with thousands of employees or more, your worth is tied much less to the actual market value of the goods and services you provide and much more tied to the political position you hold within the company and your ability to game your relationship with the people who call the shots. In the most perverse cases that's either the same person, or there is a clear quid pro quo relationship between all the head honchos that is not tied to the company's actual economic incentives.
And maybe this plan will screw over the handful of truly exceptional individuals whose ideas and skills are absolutely integral to the success of every person tied to them, but for every Ray Kroc or Sam Walton or Bill Gates in the world there's not only - by definition! - thousands of people whose lives would be improved by lessening the difference in the economic value they create and the paycheck they take home. So I am okay with people like you getting boned.
And perhaps even more importantly, not only are your Supermen vastly outnumbered by their base-level employees, they're also vastly outnumbered by the leeches near the top of the chain whose main talents are the ability to recognize and capitalize off of situations where people lack the knowledge or the initiative to seize what's rightfully theirs. Here's a tip: when Tyco can replace without losing a cent in profit a president who was freely allowed to steal 150 million dollars, you are living in a world with a complete disconnect between what your figureheads are actually worth and the value attached to them by the economic moralism you mistakenly support.
Really? Why shouldn't I thus be 100% in a "fuck you, too," mode? Really. Why should I give one shit more about you than you give about me?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19347938 - 12/30/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
if 100% of the population had ambition, who would do the hard work?
The people with ambition?
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
#19347947 - 12/30/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
imachavel said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
if 100% of the population had ambition, who would do the hard work?
The people with ambition?
ambition is what drove me to work hard and bring myself out of the poverty from which my family came
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
#19347960 - 12/30/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
Let's give all the fry cooks and sandwich artists or whatever they're called now at all the McDonald's on the west side of the country the day off. Then let's give all the VP's and heads of marketing and operations on the east side of the country the day off. See which half of the country stops getting its Big Macs first. Even you, Randian Superman that you are, couldn't do shit if you didn't have grunts.
What nonsense. By the way, I was a grunt. Sometimes I still do the grunt work. Here's the difference between me and the grunts. I can do the other stuff, none of them can. I sell the jobs I bid the jobs I do the tax shit I go in and direct a varying amount of people depending on what is necessary and there is not one person I have ever met who can frame like I can. I can get a grunt off the corner. I can't find another me.
The fact you find that fair is amazing. Sonamdrukpa is right, it's a pissing contest. You give all the grunts building a building the day off and who is going to finish the building? The architects? The contractors? As far as I'm concerned, your statement is a testament to the fact that living in this country is "survival of the fittest."
Well grunts must work their way up to "talkers" then, and like wise business entrepreneurs must deal with combat in the jungle. It's the free market, and you are part of it, but it can be regulated. That is it is in the jungle in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. Do you not find that applies to economics?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19347975 - 12/30/13 07:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: Finish the entire job without your grunts, in the same amount of time, with the same profit margin. You certainly do things that other people in the company can't, but you can't do it all without them. Otherwise you wouldn't've hired them, would you? Not only that, but it's not true that you're not replaceable. Your skill set is not unique - you're not the only construction company in the country, are you? Are the rest of them ownerless?
There are certainly people who are more economically valuable than others. But when you're a top-level exec in a company with thousands of employees or more, your worth is tied much less to the actual market value of the goods and services you provide and more to the political position you hold within the company and your ability to game your relationship with the people who call the shots. In the most perverse cases that's either the same person, or there is a clear quid pro quo relationship between all the head honchos that is not tied to the company's actual economic incentives.
Maybe this plan will screw over the handful of truly exceptional individuals whose ideas and skills are absolutely integral to the success of every person tied to them, but for every Ray Kroc or Sam Walton or Bill Gates in the world there's - by virtue of how exceptional they are! - thousands of people whose lives would be improved by lessening the difference in the economic value they create and the paycheck they take home. So I am okay with people like you getting boned.
And perhaps even more importantly, not only are your Supermen vastly outnumbered by their base-level employees, they're also vastly outnumbered by the leeches near the top of the chain whose main talents are the ability to recognize and capitalize off of situations where people lack the knowledge or the initiative to seize what's rightfully theirs. Here's a tip: when Tyco can replace without losing a cent in profit a president who was freely allowed to steal 150 million dollars, you are living in a world with a complete disconnect between what your figureheads are actually worth and the value attached to them by the economic moralism you mistakenly support.
Brilliant. I wish I could define and say what I think as well as you. I always feel what I say comes out so jumbled
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19347994 - 12/30/13 07:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What nonsense. By the way, I was a grunt. Sometimes I still do the grunt work. Here's the difference between me and the grunts. I can do the other stuff, none of them can. I sell the jobs I bid the jobs I do the tax shit I go in and direct a varying amount of people depending on what is necessary and there is not one person I have ever met who can frame like I can. I can get a grunt off the corner. I can't find another me.
The fact you find that fair is amazing. Sonamdrukpa is right, it's a pissing contest. You give all the grunts building a building the day off and who is going to finish the building? The architects? The contractors? As far as I'm concerned, your statement is a testament to the fact that living in this country is "survival of the fittest."
Who will finish the building? Me and the new grunts. They're a dime a dozen.Quote:
Well grunts must work their way up to "talkers" then, and like wise business entrepreneurs must deal with combat in the jungle. It's the free market, and you are part of it, but it can be regulated. That is it is in the jungle in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. Do you not find that applies to economics?
Talkers?
If it is regulated it isn't free.
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
#19347995 - 12/30/13 07:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: Finish the entire job without your grunts, in the same amount of time, with the same profit margin. You certainly do things that other people in the company can't, but you can't do it all without them. Otherwise you wouldn't've hired them, would you? Not only that, but it's not true that you're not replaceable. Your skill set is not unique - you're not the only construction company in the country, are you? Are the rest of them ownerless?
There are certainly people who are more economically valuable than others. But when you're a top-level exec in a company with thousands of employees or more, your worth is tied much less to the actual market value of the goods and services you provide and much more tied to the political position you hold within the company and your ability to game your relationship with the people who call the shots. In the most perverse cases that's either the same person, or there is a clear quid pro quo relationship between all the head honchos that is not tied to the company's actual economic incentives.
And maybe this plan will screw over the handful of truly exceptional individuals whose ideas and skills are absolutely integral to the success of every person tied to them, but for every Ray Kroc or Sam Walton or Bill Gates in the world there's not only - by definition! - thousands of people whose lives would be improved by lessening the difference in the economic value they create and the paycheck they take home. So I am okay with people like you getting boned.
And perhaps even more importantly, not only are your Supermen vastly outnumbered by their base-level employees, they're also vastly outnumbered by the leeches near the top of the chain whose main talents are the ability to recognize and capitalize off of situations where people lack the knowledge or the initiative to seize what's rightfully theirs. Here's a tip: when Tyco can replace without losing a cent in profit a president who was freely allowed to steal 150 million dollars, you are living in a world with a complete disconnect between what your figureheads are actually worth and the value attached to them by the economic moralism you mistakenly support.
Really? Why shouldn't I thus be 100% in a "fuck you, too," mode? Really. Why should I give one shit more about you than you give about me?
Aren't you in "fuck you too" mode? You're always without fail bitching about social programs paid for by the salaries of people like you. You know, if Walmart was required to pay its workers enough for them not to qualify for food stamps your tax burden might just be a little less.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19348032 - 12/30/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: Finish the entire job without your grunts, in the same amount of time, with the same profit margin. You certainly do things that other people in the company can't, but you can't do it all without them. Otherwise you wouldn't've hired them, would you? Not only that, but it's not true that you're not replaceable. Your skill set is not unique - you're not the only construction company in the country, are you? Are the rest of them ownerless?
There are certainly people who are more economically valuable than others. But when you're a top-level exec in a company with thousands of employees or more, your worth is tied much less to the actual market value of the goods and services you provide and much more tied to the political position you hold within the company and your ability to game your relationship with the people who call the shots. In the most perverse cases that's either the same person, or there is a clear quid pro quo relationship between all the head honchos that is not tied to the company's actual economic incentives.
And maybe this plan will screw over the handful of truly exceptional individuals whose ideas and skills are absolutely integral to the success of every person tied to them, but for every Ray Kroc or Sam Walton or Bill Gates in the world there's not only - by definition! - thousands of people whose lives would be improved by lessening the difference in the economic value they create and the paycheck they take home. So I am okay with people like you getting boned.
And perhaps even more importantly, not only are your Supermen vastly outnumbered by their base-level employees, they're also vastly outnumbered by the leeches near the top of the chain whose main talents are the ability to recognize and capitalize off of situations where people lack the knowledge or the initiative to seize what's rightfully theirs. Here's a tip: when Tyco can replace without losing a cent in profit a president who was freely allowed to steal 150 million dollars, you are living in a world with a complete disconnect between what your figureheads are actually worth and the value attached to them by the economic moralism you mistakenly support.
Really? Why shouldn't I thus be 100% in a "fuck you, too," mode? Really. Why should I give one shit more about you than you give about me?
Aren't you in "fuck you too" mode?
How so? You were aggressively saying I should get fucked. I just say I don't want to do anything for you. That is not the same thingQuote:
You're always without fail bitching about social programs paid for by the salaries of people like you. You know, if Walmart was required to pay its workers enough for them not to qualify for food stamps your tax burden might just be a little less.
If WalMart was required to pay their employees more their prices would rise and the leeches would demand more money from the taxpayer. Meanwhile the poor non leeches would suffer. The government needs to get out of the business of setting prices.
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#19348133 - 12/30/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: So I am okay with people like you getting boned.
Quote:
Aren't you in "fuck you too" mode?
How so? You were aggressively saying I should get fucked. I just say I don't want to do anything for you. That is not the same thing
Your comment was somewhat hard to parse and I guessed what you meant based on context clues that apparently were wrong. I'm still not exactly sure what you meant, as I obviously don't care whether you care about me or not.
Quote:
If WalMart was required to pay their employees more their prices would rise and the leeches would demand more money from the taxpayer. Meanwhile the poor non leeches would suffer. The government needs to get out of the business of setting prices.
That's the entire beauty of this plan. There is no minimum wage, so there is no worry about price creep. What there is is a requirement to take the extra profit money companies want to spend on excessive executive salaries and spend at least part of it on the people who have created that excess of value over the paycheck they're taking home if they want those top salaries to go up. They're also free to spend it on new facilities, equipment, customer price rebates etc. if they want to instead.
At an average minimum salary of ~$7.25/hr. and a 100x cap, that means people are free to earn ~$1.5million before they have to worry about caring more than they want to for the people who helped them do that. I don't think that even includes you, though maybe you have your really good income years.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19348221 - 12/30/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There is no such thing as extra profit.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/boeing-says-union-vote-will-decide-fate-jobs
Quote:
SEATTLE (AP) — Boeing Co. told political leaders in the Puget Sound on Monday that this week's vote by Machinists will determine the fate of some jobs on the new 777X airplane.
Local politicians gathered at a press conference in Everett to discuss the importance of approving the revised contract offer. They said Boeing executive Ray Conner told them earlier in the day that an accepted contract will ensure that work on the airplane's wing stays in the Puget Sound, but a vote to reject the deal will ensure the jobs go elsewhere.
Kent Mayor Suzette Cooke says there is no other choice but to vote yes. Otherwise, the politicians warned of a decline in the state's aerospace industry.
"We will see the demise of the economic stimulus that Boeing has provided us," Cooke said.
This warms the cockles of my heart.
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
#19348255 - 12/30/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Any and all profit not eventually spent on something is wasted.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19348274 - 12/30/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Really? How so?
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
#19348305 - 12/30/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Because it's capital that's not being used to create value?
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19349055 - 12/30/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said: Sonamdrukpa is right, it's a pissing contest. You give all the grunts building a building the day off and who is going to finish the building?
The unskilled labor at the unemployment office who is dying for a chance to get a job. The less skill it takes to do something, the easier it is to replace that person.
But on a different level, don't think a high paid employee is safe. If a company is paying an engineer a 6 figure salary, he better shit 6 figures worth of value. they can't easily replace him, but if he is adding no value for the high salary he's gone.
same thing with high execs, they have to show added value for the work they do--if they aren't adding value they will get canned.
Now, I know what you are thinking--what about the CEO who gets 100 million but the company is in ruins? He got that 100 million on a contract up front, from the board. The promised him a sum of money, base--and probably a lot more if he performed.
Its kind of like a Pro football team giving a guarantee to a top college prospect--hey, 4 years, 10 million--plus performance bonuses. What happens if he is a bust? The team eats the money in the salary cap, and it hurts them. same thing happens in big company.
but don't blame 'evil CEO's' because their butt-buddies in the government gave the a bailout. blame the guys in government, and blame the constituents who allow this bullshit to happen.
i don't like fucking bailouts any more than anyone else. And seriously, the housing mortgage bust, there should be a lot of people in orange jumpsuits from both the government and the banking industry getting their assholes pounded in leavenworth.
Which goes back to, the reason minimum wage is frowned upon is because frankly, there are people who don't deserve that much money. so why give it to them? If a person is worth a fuck they will get their ass out of those shithole jobs and get an education or start their own business. LOTS of people do that. I'm one of them.
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: starfire_xes]
#19349424 - 12/31/13 12:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thing is, once you're in a financial hole it may not be possible to do things like get an education. Being poor has this way of sucking up all of the resources you've been working on acquiring in order to complete your plans of getting out of poverty. Especially if you have kids.
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psyconaught
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19349444 - 12/31/13 12:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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education is not the only way to gain a foot hold and move up.
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19349733 - 12/31/13 02:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Simply rephrase my comment with whatever scheme you want to replace "education" with.
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: starfire_xes]
#19350587 - 12/31/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said:
Quote:
imachavel said: Sonamdrukpa is right, it's a pissing contest. You give all the grunts building a building the day off and who is going to finish the building?
The unskilled labor at the unemployment office who is dying for a chance to get a job. The less skill it takes to do something, the easier it is to replace that person.
But on a different level, don't think a high paid employee is safe. If a company is paying an engineer a 6 figure salary, he better shit 6 figures worth of value. they can't easily replace him, but if he is adding no value for the high salary he's gone.
same thing with high execs, they have to show added value for the work they do--if they aren't adding value they will get canned.
Now, I know what you are thinking--what about the CEO who gets 100 million but the company is in ruins? He got that 100 million on a contract up front, from the board. The promised him a sum of money, base--and probably a lot more if he performed.
Its kind of like a Pro football team giving a guarantee to a top college prospect--hey, 4 years, 10 million--plus performance bonuses. What happens if he is a bust? The team eats the money in the salary cap, and it hurts them. same thing happens in big company.
but don't blame 'evil CEO's' because their butt-buddies in the government gave the a bailout. blame the guys in government, and blame the constituents who allow this bullshit to happen.
i don't like fucking bailouts any more than anyone else. And seriously, the housing mortgage bust, there should be a lot of people in orange jumpsuits from both the government and the banking industry getting their assholes pounded in leavenworth.
Which goes back to, the reason minimum wage is frowned upon is because frankly, there are people who don't deserve that much money. so why give it to them? If a person is worth a fuck they will get their ass out of those shithole jobs and get an education or start their own business. LOTS of people do that. I'm one of them.
So your mentality is
"don't blame the guy who points a gun at a person and fires in an act of first degree murder, just blame the cop that sits there and watches it happen and takes a pay off to allow it."
I love it when people try to apply morals to economics that wouldn't fly in any single other situation possible. I think you are confusing a person as arguing
"any person who has a billion dollars is a bad person"
with the same argument as "CEO's should have more reason to pay people a higher minimum wage"
Honestly I couldn't care less about how 'special' a CEO is. For example a CEO of a grocery store chain with over 100 stores that has made over $500,000,000 in total company revenue. Now this business closes down and suddenly everyone is like "none of us can eat." But that's total bullshit, all those stores follow a corporate grocery store model they are all regulated by the FDA the vegetables must go in this section or the meat in that area etc. etc. If a chain closed down most likely the next day a few dozen other stores would open to take their locations that couldn't previously because there was already a grocery store there.
It's made to seem that all business owners have a job skill level that is comparable to being an engineer for NASA. They don't, most of it is just a numbers game and the person with the most numbers win. But meanwhile you sit around studying the technical aspects of Wall Street and think your values apply to actual trade in a real world made of tangible values. Those are tangible values. The owner is worth more because on paper it is said he is the owner of the tangible trade able values such as groceries, it's not a fight over him having more skill. It's based on the fact that he owns the value and all the employees that work for him are only employees not company owners they are hired to do a job.
Now are you confused that this is the reality of what we call "democracy"? Give me a break, we can't all be rich and powerful and own the tangible equivalent of all the concrete in New York City. This is the reality not some "skill" contest. The "skill contest" only applies to employees. And I couldn't care less how much they raise the minimum wage. Raise it up high for all I care. There is nothing "fair" about who owns what in this country, wealth inequality is at an all time historical high.
You own one house? Two? Neither? Ok well Bill Gates owns the equivalent of a few million houses, and this is considering that some of those homes would be $10,000,000 homes. If they were all cheap homes, he probably owns the equivalent in assets of over 10,000,000 houses. That is like an AN ENTIRE CITY
So I'll tell you this, if I made 2000 gallons of beer, got my liquor license, and had you go out to sell this beer, and paid you minimum wage instead of a commission of all the beer you sold, and I'm making approx $10 a gallon, that means I make $20,000 and you make $60 for the day. You really care that much if the wages are raised a $1 or so? I mean, you make it sound like any time employees want, they can just go quit and get another job that pays commission and be making an easy 100k a year. don't we all wish that was true
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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