Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
Offlinesonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19347995 - 12/30/13 07:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
Finish the entire job without your grunts, in the same amount of time, with the same profit margin.  You certainly do things that other people in the company can't, but you can't do it all without them.  Otherwise you wouldn't've hired them, would you?  Not only that, but it's not true that you're not replaceable.  Your skill set is not unique - you're not the only construction company in the country, are you?  Are the rest of them ownerless?

There are certainly people who are more economically valuable than others.  But when you're a top-level exec in a company with thousands of employees or more, your worth is tied much less to the actual market value of the goods and services you provide and much more tied to the political position you hold within the company and your ability to game your relationship with the people who call the shots.  In the most perverse cases that's either the same person, or there is a clear quid pro quo relationship between all the head honchos that is not tied to the company's actual economic incentives.

And maybe this plan will screw over the handful of truly exceptional individuals whose ideas and skills are absolutely integral to the success of every person tied to them, but for every Ray Kroc or Sam Walton or Bill Gates in the world there's not only - by definition! - thousands of people whose lives would be improved by lessening the difference in the economic value they create and the paycheck they take home.  So I am okay with people like you getting boned.

And perhaps even more importantly, not only are your Supermen vastly outnumbered by their base-level employees, they're also vastly outnumbered by the leeches near the top of the chain whose main talents are the ability to recognize and capitalize off of situations where people lack the knowledge or the initiative to seize what's rightfully theirs.  Here's a tip: when Tyco can replace without losing a cent in profit a president who was freely allowed to steal 150 million dollars, you are living in a world with a complete disconnect between what your figureheads are actually worth and the value attached to them by the economic moralism you mistakenly support.




Really?  Why shouldn't I thus be 100% in a "fuck you, too," mode?  Really.  Why should I give one shit more about you than you give about me?




Aren't you in "fuck you too" mode?  You're always without fail bitching about social programs paid for by the salaries of people like you.  You know, if Walmart was required to pay its workers enough for them not to qualify for food stamps your tax burden might just be a little less.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #19348032 - 12/30/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
Finish the entire job without your grunts, in the same amount of time, with the same profit margin.  You certainly do things that other people in the company can't, but you can't do it all without them.  Otherwise you wouldn't've hired them, would you?  Not only that, but it's not true that you're not replaceable.  Your skill set is not unique - you're not the only construction company in the country, are you?  Are the rest of them ownerless?

There are certainly people who are more economically valuable than others.  But when you're a top-level exec in a company with thousands of employees or more, your worth is tied much less to the actual market value of the goods and services you provide and much more tied to the political position you hold within the company and your ability to game your relationship with the people who call the shots.  In the most perverse cases that's either the same person, or there is a clear quid pro quo relationship between all the head honchos that is not tied to the company's actual economic incentives.

And maybe this plan will screw over the handful of truly exceptional individuals whose ideas and skills are absolutely integral to the success of every person tied to them, but for every Ray Kroc or Sam Walton or Bill Gates in the world there's not only - by definition! - thousands of people whose lives would be improved by lessening the difference in the economic value they create and the paycheck they take home.  So I am okay with people like you getting boned.

And perhaps even more importantly, not only are your Supermen vastly outnumbered by their base-level employees, they're also vastly outnumbered by the leeches near the top of the chain whose main talents are the ability to recognize and capitalize off of situations where people lack the knowledge or the initiative to seize what's rightfully theirs.  Here's a tip: when Tyco can replace without losing a cent in profit a president who was freely allowed to steal 150 million dollars, you are living in a world with a complete disconnect between what your figureheads are actually worth and the value attached to them by the economic moralism you mistakenly support.




Really?  Why shouldn't I thus be 100% in a "fuck you, too," mode?  Really.  Why should I give one shit more about you than you give about me?




Aren't you in "fuck you too" mode? 


  How so?  You were aggressively saying I should get fucked.  I just say I don't want to do anything for you.  That is not the same thing
Quote:



You're always without fail bitching about social programs paid for by the salaries of people like you.  You know, if Walmart was required to pay its workers enough for them not to qualify for food stamps your tax burden might just be a little less.




If WalMart was required to pay their employees more their prices would rise and the leeches would demand more money from the taxpayer.  Meanwhile the poor non leeches would suffer.  The government needs to get out of the business of setting prices.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19348133 - 12/30/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
So I am okay with people like you getting boned.




Quote:

Aren't you in "fuck you too" mode?


  How so?  You were aggressively saying I should get fucked.  I just say I don't want to do anything for you.  That is not the same thing




Your comment was somewhat hard to parse and I guessed what you meant based on context clues that apparently were wrong.  I'm still not exactly sure what you meant, as I obviously don't care whether you care about me or not.

Quote:

If WalMart was required to pay their employees more their prices would rise and the leeches would demand more money from the taxpayer.  Meanwhile the poor non leeches would suffer.  The government needs to get out of the business of setting prices.




That's the entire beauty of this plan.  There is no minimum wage, so there is no worry about price creep.  What there is is a requirement to take the extra profit money companies want to spend on excessive executive salaries and spend at least part of it on the people who have created that excess of value over the paycheck they're taking home if they want those top salaries to go up.  They're also free to spend it on new facilities, equipment, customer price rebates etc. if they want to instead. 

At an average minimum salary of ~$7.25/hr. and a 100x cap, that means people are free to earn ~$1.5million before they have to worry about caring more than they want to for the people who helped them do that.  I don't think that even includes you, though maybe you have your really good income years.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #19348221 - 12/30/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There is no such thing as extra profit.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/boeing-says-union-vote-will-decide-fate-jobs

Quote:

SEATTLE (AP) — Boeing Co. told political leaders in the Puget Sound on Monday that this week's vote by Machinists will determine the fate of some jobs on the new 777X airplane.

Local politicians gathered at a press conference in Everett to discuss the importance of approving the revised contract offer. They said Boeing executive Ray Conner told them earlier in the day that an accepted contract will ensure that work on the airplane's wing stays in the Puget Sound, but a vote to reject the deal will ensure the jobs go elsewhere.

Kent Mayor Suzette Cooke says there is no other choice but to vote yes. Otherwise, the politicians warned of a decline in the state's aerospace industry.

"We will see the demise of the economic stimulus that Boeing has provided us," Cooke said.



This warms the cockles of my heart.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19348255 - 12/30/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Any and all profit not eventually spent on something is wasted.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #19348274 - 12/30/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Really?  How so?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19348305 - 12/30/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Because it's capital that's not being used to create value?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinestarfire_xes
I Am 'They'
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 1 day
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
    #19349055 - 12/30/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Sonamdrukpa is right, it's a pissing contest. You give all the grunts building a building the day off and who is going to finish the building?




The unskilled labor at the unemployment office who is dying for a chance to get a job.  The less skill it takes to do something, the easier it is to replace that person.

But on a different level, don't think a high paid employee is safe.  If a company is paying an engineer a 6 figure salary, he better shit 6 figures worth of value.  they can't easily replace him, but if he is adding no value for the high salary he's gone.

same thing with high execs, they have to show added value for the work they do--if they aren't adding value they will get canned.

Now, I know what you are thinking--what about the CEO who gets 100 million but the company is in ruins?  He got that 100 million on a contract up front, from the board.  The promised him a sum of money, base--and probably a lot more if he performed. 

Its kind of like a Pro football team giving a guarantee to a top college prospect--hey, 4 years, 10 million--plus performance bonuses.  What happens if he is a bust?  The team eats the money in the salary cap, and it hurts them.  same thing happens in big company.

but don't blame 'evil CEO's' because their butt-buddies in the government gave the a bailout.  blame the guys in government, and blame the constituents who allow this bullshit to happen. 

i don't like fucking bailouts any more than anyone else.  And seriously, the housing mortgage bust, there should be a lot of people in orange jumpsuits from both the government and the banking industry getting their assholes pounded in leavenworth.

Which goes back to, the reason minimum wage is frowned upon is because frankly, there are people who don't deserve that much money.  so why give it to them?  If a person is worth a fuck they will get their ass out of those shithole jobs and get an education or start their own business.  LOTS of people do that.  I'm one of them.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19349424 - 12/31/13 12:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Thing is, once you're in a financial hole it may not be possible to do things like get an education.  Being poor has this way of sucking up all of the resources you've been working on acquiring in order to complete your plans of getting out of poverty.  Especially if you have kids.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #19349444 - 12/31/13 12:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

education is not the only way to gain a foot hold and move up.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
    #19349733 - 12/31/13 02:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Simply rephrase my comment with whatever scheme you want to replace "education" with.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,375
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 11 hours, 25 minutes
Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19350587 - 12/31/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Sonamdrukpa is right, it's a pissing contest. You give all the grunts building a building the day off and who is going to finish the building?




The unskilled labor at the unemployment office who is dying for a chance to get a job.  The less skill it takes to do something, the easier it is to replace that person.

But on a different level, don't think a high paid employee is safe.  If a company is paying an engineer a 6 figure salary, he better shit 6 figures worth of value.  they can't easily replace him, but if he is adding no value for the high salary he's gone.

same thing with high execs, they have to show added value for the work they do--if they aren't adding value they will get canned.

Now, I know what you are thinking--what about the CEO who gets 100 million but the company is in ruins?  He got that 100 million on a contract up front, from the board.  The promised him a sum of money, base--and probably a lot more if he performed. 

Its kind of like a Pro football team giving a guarantee to a top college prospect--hey, 4 years, 10 million--plus performance bonuses.  What happens if he is a bust?  The team eats the money in the salary cap, and it hurts them.  same thing happens in big company.

but don't blame 'evil CEO's' because their butt-buddies in the government gave the a bailout.  blame the guys in government, and blame the constituents who allow this bullshit to happen. 

i don't like fucking bailouts any more than anyone else.  And seriously, the housing mortgage bust, there should be a lot of people in orange jumpsuits from both the government and the banking industry getting their assholes pounded in leavenworth.

Which goes back to, the reason minimum wage is frowned upon is because frankly, there are people who don't deserve that much money.  so why give it to them?  If a person is worth a fuck they will get their ass out of those shithole jobs and get an education or start their own business.  LOTS of people do that.  I'm one of them.




So your mentality is

"don't blame the guy who points a gun at a person and fires in an act of first degree murder, just blame the cop that sits there and watches it happen and takes a pay off to allow it."

:facepalm: I love it when people try to apply morals to economics that wouldn't fly in any single other situation possible. I think you are confusing a person as arguing

"any person who has a billion dollars is a bad person"

with the same argument as "CEO's should have more reason to pay people a higher minimum wage"

Honestly I couldn't care less about how 'special' a CEO is. For example a CEO of a grocery store chain with over 100 stores that has made over $500,000,000 in total company revenue. Now this business closes down and suddenly everyone is like "none of us can eat." But that's total bullshit, all those stores follow a corporate grocery store model they are all regulated by the FDA the vegetables must go in this section or the meat in that area etc. etc. If a chain closed down most likely the next day a few dozen other stores would open to take their locations that couldn't previously because there was already a grocery store there.

It's made to seem that all business owners have a job skill level that is comparable to being an engineer for NASA. They don't, most of it is just a numbers game and the person with the most numbers win. But meanwhile you sit around studying the technical aspects of Wall Street and think your values apply to actual trade in a real world made of tangible values. Those are tangible values. The owner is worth more because on paper it is said he is the owner of the tangible trade able values such as groceries, it's not a fight over him having more skill. It's based on the fact that he owns the value and all the employees that work for him are only employees not company owners they are hired to do a job.

Now are you confused that this is the reality of what we call "democracy"? Give me a break, we can't all be rich and powerful and own the tangible equivalent of all the concrete in New York City. This is the reality not some "skill" contest. The "skill contest" only applies to employees. And I couldn't care less how much they raise the minimum wage. Raise it up high for all I care. There is nothing "fair" about who owns what in this country, wealth inequality is at an all time historical high.

You own one house? Two? Neither? Ok well Bill Gates owns the equivalent of a few million houses, and this is considering that some of those homes would be $10,000,000 homes. If they were all cheap homes, he probably owns the equivalent in assets of over 10,000,000 houses. That is like an AN ENTIRE CITY

So I'll tell you this, if I made 2000 gallons of beer, got my liquor license, and had you go out to sell this beer, and paid you minimum wage instead of a commission of all the beer you sold, and I'm making approx $10 a gallon, that means I make $20,000 and you make $60 for the day. You really care that much if the wages are raised a $1 or so? I mean, you make it sound like any time employees want, they can just go quit and get another job that pays commission and be making an easy 100k a year. :facepalm: don't we all wish that was true


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Minimum Wage Revisited
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 4,350 33 04/15/04 12:49 PM
by Tao
* A couple of questions on the minimum wage
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 3,512 29 10/21/03 03:40 PM
by Evolving
* New Scheduling of AMT and 5-MeO-DIPT gluckspilz 804 4 01/29/03 05:13 PM
by silversoul7
* Corporate pay scales...
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
GazzBut 4,003 84 11/09/04 05:17 PM
by Anonymous
* The young are becoming less liberal
( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )
Phred 11,875 195 11/17/03 12:16 PM
by Anonymous
* 7 out of 10 Americans still see Hussein - 9/11 link
( 1 2 all )
Edame 3,467 25 09/07/03 09:40 PM
by Phluck
* Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Evolving 6,860 63 11/01/02 08:19 AM
by Innvertigo
* Whining about taxes
( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )
silversoul7 9,406 187 06/16/03 04:10 PM
by Azmodeus

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,316 topic views. 3 members, 4 guests and 16 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.