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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19345849 - 12/30/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: your envy is showing. Someone making millions a year has no bearing on your life whatsoever. Someone else being wealthy does not infringe on your ability to become wealthy. Your attitude, and the liberal attitude, bears a striking resemblance to a psychotic ex girl friends. "If i can't have him no one can!!!!"
You gotta pull the liberal insult because you no longer have anything to argue with. Here I was thinking you were going to say "how can a cell phone provider provide in only 10 states and I can still get national coverage" which I was going to reply to.
And instead you pull the "liberal agenda" routine because you are running out of material to throw at me. Have you seen my sig? Honestly "the poor millionaires" routine 
I live a few blocks away from an area rated as being the #9 spot with the most expensive homes in the world in Florida, I probably know more millionaires then you. And I couldn't care less how rich or poor they are. But the fact is I know better then to think that a $1 or so wage increase will plummet their earnings. When you can afford boats bigger then most peoples homes I doubt much is going to change that. Oh well have it your way maybe if you bitch long enough they won't raise the minimum wage
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19346133 - 12/30/13 12:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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i didn't reply to your cell phone statement because it was stupid. I made an observation about your attitude and noticed it happen to be similar to the liberal attitude

and i wouldn't be so sure, i live in silicon valley so its probably pretty even 
I have plenty of valid points against a min. wage and as i've pointed out numerous times now it has nothing to do with the 'poor millionaires' I'm against the min. wage because it hurts small business owners.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19346146 - 12/30/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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actually i do have a response to the cell phone statement. The fact that you think a government can create a free competitive market it laughable
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19346206 - 12/30/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19346369 - 12/30/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: i didn't reply to your cell phone statement because it was stupid. I made an observation about your attitude and noticed it happen to be similar to the liberal attitude

and i wouldn't be so sure, i live in silicon valley so its probably pretty even 
I have plenty of valid points against a min. wage and as i've pointed out numerous times now it has nothing to do with the 'poor millionaires' I'm against the min. wage because it hurts small business owners.


Well colour me purple you can't even understand I'm not liberal 
it's ok
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught]
#19346412 - 12/30/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: actually i do have a response to the cell phone statement. The fact that you think a government can create a free competitive market it laughable 
I think the government can create a free competitive market? Well shit, go to Libia there is like no government there, no competition, you might be a millionaire in two days 
Honestly I'm surprised you associate large business with "functioning free of government regulated competition." I don't think I've ever seen a poor person run as a politician and finance a campaign
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: qman]
#19346418 - 12/30/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2530798/French-court-gives-ahead-Hollandes-75-tax-Plans-rate-earnings-one-million-euros-lead-mass-exodus-celebrities-businesses.html#ixzz2ouZFj43L
France going to put a 75% tax on income over $1 million Euros, talk about crazy.
Yeah but this is nothing, compared to $10.10 an hour. Think of the destruction France will seem like a joke
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: psyconaught] 1
#19347608 - 12/30/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: So not only should we have a $15 minimum wage, but we should also have a mimim earning requirement for people who own business's! So if anyone starts a business they should be REQUIRED to make at least $45,000 a year!
Oh wait... thats not how economics works... A required earnings amount for business owners doesn't work because you cannot guarantee that business will produce that much value. Much like not every employee is worth $15 an hour of productivity.
You don't have an analogous situation here. A person has to convince a business that they are worth their salary in order to be hired and then that person provides already-agreed upon services to that business. You don't have to convince whoever would be making up the difference between actual earnings and the 45K in this scenario that your business plan would be worth that much, nor do you have any requirement that whoever is paying the difference (the government? who? That's actually probably the main reason why this analogy is completely meaningless) receive compensation for their risk exposure. I get what you're trying to say but you are in no way supporting your position with this argument.
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll - say 100x. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19347624 - 12/30/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#19347654 - 12/30/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
Let's give all the fry cooks and sandwich artists or whatever they're called now at all the McDonald's on the west side of the country the day off. Then let's give all the VP's and heads of marketing and operations on the east side of the country the day off. See which half of the country stops getting its Big Macs first. Even you, Randian Superman that you are, couldn't do shit if you didn't have grunts.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19347735 - 12/30/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
Let's give all the fry cooks and sandwich artists or whatever they're called now at all the McDonald's on the west side of the country the day off. Then let's give all the VP's and heads of marketing and operations on the east side of the country the day off. See which half of the country stops getting its Big Macs first. Even you, Randian Superman that you are, couldn't do shit if you didn't have grunts.
What nonsense. By the way, I was a grunt. Sometimes I still do the grunt work. Here's the difference between me and the grunts. I can do the other stuff, none of them can. I sell the jobs I bid the jobs I do the tax shit I go in and direct a varying amount of people depending on what is necessary and there is not one person I have ever met who can frame like I can. I can get a grunt off the corner. I can't find another me.
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#19347913 - 12/30/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Finish the entire job without your grunts, in the same amount of time, with the same profit margin. You certainly do things that other people in the company can't, but you can't do it all without them. Otherwise you wouldn't've hired them, would you? Not only that, but it's not true that you're not replaceable. Your skill set is not unique - you're not the only construction company in the country, are you? Are the rest of them ownerless?
There are certainly people who are more economically valuable than others. But when you're a top-level exec in a company with thousands of employees or more, your worth is tied much less to the actual market value of the goods and services you provide and more to the political position you hold within the company and your ability to game your relationship with the people who call the shots. In the most perverse cases that's either the same person, or there is a clear quid pro quo relationship between all the head honchos that is not tied to the company's actual economic incentives.
Maybe this plan will screw over the handful of truly exceptional individuals whose ideas and skills are absolutely integral to the success of every person tied to them, but for every Ray Kroc or Sam Walton or Bill Gates in the world there's - by virtue of how exceptional they are! - thousands of people whose lives would be improved by lessening the difference in the economic value they create and the paycheck they take home. So I am okay with people like you getting boned.
And perhaps even more importantly, not only are your Supermen vastly outnumbered by their base-level employees, they're also vastly outnumbered by the leeches near the top of the chain whose main talents are the ability to recognize and capitalize off of situations where people lack the knowledge or the initiative to seize what's rightfully theirs. Here's a tip: when Tyco can replace without losing a cent in profit a president who was freely allowed to steal 150 million dollars, you are living in a world with a complete disconnect between what your figureheads are actually worth and the value attached to them by the economic moralism you mistakenly support.
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,375
Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 12 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19347924 - 12/30/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
psyconaught said: So not only should we have a $15 minimum wage, but we should also have a mimim earning requirement for people who own business's! So if anyone starts a business they should be REQUIRED to make at least $45,000 a year!
Oh wait... thats not how economics works... A required earnings amount for business owners doesn't work because you cannot guarantee that business will produce that much value. Much like not every employee is worth $15 an hour of productivity.
You don't have an analogous situation here. A person has to convince a business that they are worth their salary in order to be hired and then that person provides already-agreed upon services to that business. You don't have to convince whoever would be making up the difference between actual earnings and the 45K in this scenario that your business plan would be worth that much, nor do you have any requirement that whoever is paying the difference (the government? who? That's actually probably the main reason why this analogy is completely meaningless) receive compensation for their risk exposure. I get what you're trying to say but you are in no way supporting your position with this argument.
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll - say 100x. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
Ok I agree. I don't see how I'm not supporting my argument to say that a person who is responsible for an entire business and ask for loans should have the experience and responsibility to have foresight on wage increase laws. But otherwise I completely agree with you, especially this statement, which is what I was trying to emphasize
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws.
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
#19347927 - 12/30/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
if 100% of the population had ambition, who would do the hard work?
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19347936 - 12/30/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: Finish the entire job without your grunts, in the same amount of time, with the same profit margin. You certainly do things that other people in the company can't, but you can't do it all without them. Otherwise you wouldn't've hired them, would you? Not only that, but it's not true that you're not replaceable. Your skill set is not unique - you're not the only construction company in the country, are you? Are the rest of them ownerless?
There are certainly people who are more economically valuable than others. But when you're a top-level exec in a company with thousands of employees or more, your worth is tied much less to the actual market value of the goods and services you provide and much more tied to the political position you hold within the company and your ability to game your relationship with the people who call the shots. In the most perverse cases that's either the same person, or there is a clear quid pro quo relationship between all the head honchos that is not tied to the company's actual economic incentives.
And maybe this plan will screw over the handful of truly exceptional individuals whose ideas and skills are absolutely integral to the success of every person tied to them, but for every Ray Kroc or Sam Walton or Bill Gates in the world there's not only - by definition! - thousands of people whose lives would be improved by lessening the difference in the economic value they create and the paycheck they take home. So I am okay with people like you getting boned.
And perhaps even more importantly, not only are your Supermen vastly outnumbered by their base-level employees, they're also vastly outnumbered by the leeches near the top of the chain whose main talents are the ability to recognize and capitalize off of situations where people lack the knowledge or the initiative to seize what's rightfully theirs. Here's a tip: when Tyco can replace without losing a cent in profit a president who was freely allowed to steal 150 million dollars, you are living in a world with a complete disconnect between what your figureheads are actually worth and the value attached to them by the economic moralism you mistakenly support.
Really? Why shouldn't I thus be 100% in a "fuck you, too," mode? Really. Why should I give one shit more about you than you give about me?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19347938 - 12/30/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
if 100% of the population had ambition, who would do the hard work?
The people with ambition?
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
#19347947 - 12/30/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
imachavel said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
if 100% of the population had ambition, who would do the hard work?
The people with ambition?
ambition is what drove me to work hard and bring myself out of the poverty from which my family came
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,375
Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 12 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: zappaisgod]
#19347960 - 12/30/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
There are many benefits and many disadvantages to minimum wage laws. What I would like instead would be a maximum wage ratio law, where no one in a company can earn more than some multiple of the lowest-paid employee on the company's payroll. There's no justification for a McDonald's VP going home with a salary of millions while the people who actually provide value go home with sub-poverty-level paychecks.
If the minimum wage shitbags provided value they would own the franchise. But they don't. Because they are minimum wage shitbags. They are easily replaceable no talent bums with no brains and no work ethic who work for the weekend. No brains no ambition no value.
Let's give all the fry cooks and sandwich artists or whatever they're called now at all the McDonald's on the west side of the country the day off. Then let's give all the VP's and heads of marketing and operations on the east side of the country the day off. See which half of the country stops getting its Big Macs first. Even you, Randian Superman that you are, couldn't do shit if you didn't have grunts.
What nonsense. By the way, I was a grunt. Sometimes I still do the grunt work. Here's the difference between me and the grunts. I can do the other stuff, none of them can. I sell the jobs I bid the jobs I do the tax shit I go in and direct a varying amount of people depending on what is necessary and there is not one person I have ever met who can frame like I can. I can get a grunt off the corner. I can't find another me.
The fact you find that fair is amazing. Sonamdrukpa is right, it's a pissing contest. You give all the grunts building a building the day off and who is going to finish the building? The architects? The contractors? As far as I'm concerned, your statement is a testament to the fact that living in this country is "survival of the fittest."
Well grunts must work their way up to "talkers" then, and like wise business entrepreneurs must deal with combat in the jungle. It's the free market, and you are part of it, but it can be regulated. That is it is in the jungle in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. Do you not find that applies to economics?
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
|
imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,375
Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 12 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#19347975 - 12/30/13 07:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: Finish the entire job without your grunts, in the same amount of time, with the same profit margin. You certainly do things that other people in the company can't, but you can't do it all without them. Otherwise you wouldn't've hired them, would you? Not only that, but it's not true that you're not replaceable. Your skill set is not unique - you're not the only construction company in the country, are you? Are the rest of them ownerless?
There are certainly people who are more economically valuable than others. But when you're a top-level exec in a company with thousands of employees or more, your worth is tied much less to the actual market value of the goods and services you provide and more to the political position you hold within the company and your ability to game your relationship with the people who call the shots. In the most perverse cases that's either the same person, or there is a clear quid pro quo relationship between all the head honchos that is not tied to the company's actual economic incentives.
Maybe this plan will screw over the handful of truly exceptional individuals whose ideas and skills are absolutely integral to the success of every person tied to them, but for every Ray Kroc or Sam Walton or Bill Gates in the world there's - by virtue of how exceptional they are! - thousands of people whose lives would be improved by lessening the difference in the economic value they create and the paycheck they take home. So I am okay with people like you getting boned.
And perhaps even more importantly, not only are your Supermen vastly outnumbered by their base-level employees, they're also vastly outnumbered by the leeches near the top of the chain whose main talents are the ability to recognize and capitalize off of situations where people lack the knowledge or the initiative to seize what's rightfully theirs. Here's a tip: when Tyco can replace without losing a cent in profit a president who was freely allowed to steal 150 million dollars, you are living in a world with a complete disconnect between what your figureheads are actually worth and the value attached to them by the economic moralism you mistakenly support.
Brilliant. I wish I could define and say what I think as well as you. I always feel what I say comes out so jumbled
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Something we should have IN ADDITION to the minimum wage [Re: imachavel]
#19347994 - 12/30/13 07:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What nonsense. By the way, I was a grunt. Sometimes I still do the grunt work. Here's the difference between me and the grunts. I can do the other stuff, none of them can. I sell the jobs I bid the jobs I do the tax shit I go in and direct a varying amount of people depending on what is necessary and there is not one person I have ever met who can frame like I can. I can get a grunt off the corner. I can't find another me.
The fact you find that fair is amazing. Sonamdrukpa is right, it's a pissing contest. You give all the grunts building a building the day off and who is going to finish the building? The architects? The contractors? As far as I'm concerned, your statement is a testament to the fact that living in this country is "survival of the fittest."
Who will finish the building? Me and the new grunts. They're a dime a dozen.Quote:
Well grunts must work their way up to "talkers" then, and like wise business entrepreneurs must deal with combat in the jungle. It's the free market, and you are part of it, but it can be regulated. That is it is in the jungle in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. Do you not find that applies to economics?
Talkers?
If it is regulated it isn't free.
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