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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Shpongle1]
    #19297488 - 12/19/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

First, "just say no" IS sensible information. 

Second, what is stopping promoters and others from distributing additional information?


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OfflineShpongle1
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Enlil]
    #19297537 - 12/19/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

She didn't say anyone is stopping them! She is advising them to do just that. She's not saying aw, prohibition makes it impossible to do that.  You're twisting the words of the author in order to have something to argue about.

Secondly, just say no works about as well as sex ed classes telling kids to abstain from sex until they're married and telling them nothing else. It's not going to happen, period. So do we want 16 year olds fucking with no idea of what std's are or how a condom works or do we want them to do it safely if they are going to choose to participate?  It's the exact same with drugs. The only different is that sex isn't illegal. Hence prohibition being to blame for this childish approach to drug "education".


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There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


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InvisibleSynthe
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Enlil]
    #19297922 - 12/19/13 01:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Typical druggie logic: It's not the drug's fault..it's prohibition's fault.



:agentgtfo:


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Synthe]
    #19298137 - 12/19/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Are there any actual data on festival deaths?

I'd assume plenty of people die from alcohol intoxication at bars/parties etc. and its legal. 

I'm not convinced legalizing MDMA and handing it out like candy at festivals would decrease deaths; even if safety procedures and education were implemented.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

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Offlinedokunai
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19298624 - 12/19/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The title of this thread says that molly doesn't kill people, prohibition does....then it goes on to talk about education and informing people to drink water.

Obviously prohibition does create some problems, but arguments like this that blame every drug issue on prohibition are nonsense, and they hurt credibility.





OK, let's imagine a kid at a festival, through his own naivete manages to ingest too much MDMA.  I suppose you've never taken too much of anything either by accident or being sold the wrong substance or even just stupidity.  But if you did, wWhat did you likely do next?  "I'll ride it out, it feels like I'm having a stroke, this is the worst I've felt in my entire life but I won't die because I've tripped balls way harder than this."  Or more importantly, "no matter what happens to me it can't be worse that what the police will do."  Maybe you've heard of good samaritan laws here in the US.  If you call in to report a life-threatening drug overdose, medical responders here would rather see the overdosee's life saved instead of the responsible person who called in the emergency face possibly decades in jail.  Makes it a real toughy of a decision, how to act in such a circumstance, doesn't it? 

Imagine another kid who isn't such a hard headed psychonaut as you mate and is really afraid he will die.  What options does he have?  Heading for the nearest hospital in an abmbulance can likely have a plethora of terrible consequences.  Provided he survives, we could be looking at many $10,000s of thousands of dollars that will likely see his wages garnished because he happens to be a fry cook at a local eatery.  He will also be labeled as a junky with drug seeking tendencies.  A few years later when he tears an ACL during a game for his work league and can barely walk, Dr. Fuckwit will certainly see that he doesn't get anything stronger than ibuprofen.

More than anything, prohibition costs lives and ruins the ones that live to tell the tail.  But hey, what's more important?  A nameless, faceless corporation making hundreds of thousands of dollars off of the admittedly carelesss mistake of a young man.  Or is it providing a public service that doesn't have the side effect of financially crippling the remainder of the life of a foolish young man who felt the inescapable need to test the boundaries of the mystery of life?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: dokunai]
    #19298634 - 12/19/13 04:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Cool rant, bro.  What does that have to do with education/information at festivals?


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Enlil]
    #19298659 - 12/19/13 04:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
First, "just say no" IS sensible information. 





Not really. Teens/young adults do drugs, telling them not to do it when they are gonna do it anyway is just redundant. Its like telling teens not to have sex and refuse to provide them with condoms. They are gonna have sex... so at least give them condoms and give them the option to be safe if they decide to do it.

Same thing for drugs... festivals should be able to provide a myriad of information about drug safety without having to worry about being shut down because it looks like they cater to drug users. Everyone knows there is drugs at festivals, promoting drug safety is essentially saying "Drugs are here!"


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Enlil]
    #19298663 - 12/19/13 04:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Just stawp, you sound like some bias snobby asshole. Half of the questions you ask in your stuck up replies have already been answered.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Uzziel]
    #19298669 - 12/19/13 04:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It's not redundant.  Ineffective, but not redundant.  That doesn't make the advice any less sensible, though.

Festivals CAN provide drug safety information.  If they choose not to for fear of being shut down, then that's on them.  There's no law against distributing such information.


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Enlil]
    #19298679 - 12/19/13 04:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So if a festival doesn't hand out safety info due to fear of being persecuted for drug use it's their fault? I'm not sure if you are aware of how much $$$ festivals cost but the last thing the people hosting one will do is anything that would jeopardize it from happening.


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You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: musiclover420]
    #19298697 - 12/19/13 04:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Why would they be persecuted for handing out information?  That's just ridiculous.  This site has been up for a decade and a half, and has it been shut down?  Has it ever been harassed by LE?  The answer is no to both of those questions.


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OfflineShpongle1
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Enlil]
    #19298758 - 12/19/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illicit_Drug_Anti-Proliferation_Act

Quote:

Enlil said:
Cool rant, bro.  What does that have to do with education/information at festivals?




You keep clinging to this statement like a child.  The post that you wrote that in response to was well thought out and written and clearly shows how prohibition can be a cause of deaths at festivals, which is what the fucking article is about.  Not just about handing out information at festivals, are you capable of seeing beyond that or no?


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Enlil]
    #19298770 - 12/19/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Why would they be persecuted for handing out information?  That's just ridiculous.  This site has been up for a decade and a half, and has it been shut down?  Has it ever been harassed by LE?  The answer is no to both of those questions.




You're comparing a festival to the shroomery?

One actually has drugs present. The shroomery is just an internet site that was designed for harm prevention.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Shpongle1]
    #19298881 - 12/19/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shpongle1 said:
The post that you wrote that in response to was well thought out and written



Actually, it was quite poorly written and failed to address the issues raised by the article in the OP.

I don't see why you don't understand this, but it obvious that you're not going to.


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OfflineShpongle1
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19298917 - 12/19/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Read the fucking title of the article.  The point she is making goes well beyond handing out information at festivals, which is apparently all that you are able to focus on here simply because she mentions it.  The author recommends that festival promoters give out information and that the drug takers themselves seek out information.  Where does she say that they can't hand out information?  She specifically says that she thinks they should.  What don't you fucking get?  As if prohibition implies 'prohibition of handing out information'.  Prohibition is what causes many of the deaths at music festivals.  For reason beyond the fact that the promoters didn't hand out info.  Yes, she mentions that in the article.  Does that mean you can't see beyond it?  Jesus man....  If the point was that handing out info at festivals is illegal she would have titled it accordingly, but clearly the topic is PROHIBITION.  And all of the various facets that that affects.

But also, it is illegal for places to profit from or maintain an area for the taking of drugs.  So I would not be at all surprised if the people in charge of festivals could be legally implicated as operating something for the purpose of people taking drugs if they were to be responsible for handing out information about how to safely take drugs at something like a gigantic music festival. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illicit_Drug_Anti-Proliferation_Act


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


Edited by Shpongle1 (12/19/13 05:10 PM)


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OfflineLittleman

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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Enlil]
    #19301169 - 12/20/13 03:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That is some stupid shit.  How, exactly, is prohibition stopping promoters and others from telling people to stay hydrated on molly?
.





quite simple:

Prohibition means promoters must adopt a strictly anti-drugs policy in the eyes of the law for their events in order for them to go ahead.


--------------------
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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Molly is Not What's Killing People at Music Festivals, Prohibition is to Blame [Re: Littleman]
    #19312973 - 12/22/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't believe that prohibition forces people to misidentify research chemicals, adulterate them, and underestimate the doses.

And, I don't believe that taxation and regulation necessarily results in convenience and quality.


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