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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me.....
    #19294992 - 12/18/13 08:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Over the last forty years. Democrat and Republican controlled congress and Presidents have taxed us, wasted money on all kinds of shitty wars, projects, and 'stimulus', created regulations that choke companies, set up rules so their buddies in the banking industry and other various sectors of the economy could play schemes and loot the taxpayers and stockholders, spent money like drunken sailors in a whorehouse, and exempted themselves from laws and gave themselves special benefits and priviledges that the average person doesn't have.

then when someone independent of the washington insiders comes along, everyone starts screaming about obstructionism and who (name a class of people, a big buisiness, or some other entity Outside of DC) and blaming the people who want to do something about it.

government has created the problems and been at the heart of everything bad that has happened to this country, and then the media, and the people who support those 2 parties, start telling us that we need more government up our ass with a microscope, more regulations for companies.....they blame everyone except themselves, and their followers wag their tales and beg with their paws in the air and vote them into office again.

so, the government fucks everything up, then the fucking politicians and their clueless Sheep tell us we need more government to fix the problem????

WELL THEY CAN SMOOCH MY HAIRY WHITE SHINY ASS. :smug: :smirk:


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InvisibleConfucian
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19295294 - 12/18/13 09:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

huh?


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InvisibleConfucian
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Confucian] * 2
    #19298215 - 12/19/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There are only 2 explanations for your full-retard posts on the government:

1) Either you have firsthand experience of being screwed over in which you falsely blamed the government (highly unlikely)

2) You are an uninformed moron (who thinks he's smart) who gets all his "news" from far-right blogs, talk radio, other uninformed moron friends, and far-right websites (highly likely)


Edited by Confucian (12/19/13 02:18 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Confucian] * 1
    #19298351 - 12/19/13 02:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
There are only 2 explanations for your full-retard posts on the government:

1) Either you have firsthand experience of being screwed over in which you falsely blamed the government (highly unlikely)

2) You are an uninformed moron (who thinks he's smart) who gets all his "news" from far-right blogs, talk radio, other uninformed moron friends, and far-right websites (highly likely)



How wonderfully substantive.  I have been screwed over by the government repeatedly as has every single citizen worth a shit.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Confucian] * 2
    #19299616 - 12/19/13 07:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
There are only 2 explanations for your full-retard posts on the government:

1) Either you have firsthand experience of being screwed over in which you falsely blamed the government (highly unlikely)

2) You are an uninformed moron (who thinks he's smart) who gets all his "news" from far-right blogs, talk radio, other uninformed moron friends, and far-right websites (highly likely)





You can fall to your knees and suck the governments cock, let them stick a microscope up you ass and examine every aspect of your life, and wear a clown suit and a studded dog collar and get on your hind legs and beg when the government says to, but I stand by what I say.

THe government has caused the problems that have fucked the country up.  Period.  Government needs to GTFO of the way and let THE PEOPLE run the country.


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OfflineHorizon
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19299679 - 12/19/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I mostly agree with you. Yes, we are being fucked by the government. But don't you think that some system must be in place (at least for most people). I do not necessarily view "the government" as a separate entity from the citizens, at least in the United States. With the population being as high as it is and the lack of intelligence present in the majority of people (particularly those in office) I would say that most people would be lost without some kind of political infrastructure. I'm not saying that I agree with the two party system in the United States, in fact I despise it, but you can't deny that some people are incapable of surviving without it. And they cannot imagine a third party coming into the picture.


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Stanhope is right :drunk:


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Horizon]
    #19299698 - 12/19/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Horizon said:
I mostly agree with you. Yes, we are being fucked by the government. But don't you think that some system must be in place (at least for most people). I do not necessarily view "the government" as a separate entity from the citizens, at least in the United States. With the population being as high as it is and the lack of intelligence present in the majority of people (particularly those in office) I would say that most people would be lost without some kind of political infrastructure. I'm not saying that I agree with the two party system in the United States, in fact I despise it, but you can't deny that some people are incapable of surviving without it. And they cannot imagine a third party coming into the picture.





Did i say I was against ALL government?  The problem with a big, overbearing statist national government is that there are too many people in too many different places, and ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL.  That is why there are supposed to be states rights.


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OfflineHorizon
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19299716 - 12/19/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I completely agree.


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Stanhope is right :drunk:


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Offlinesixxy
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19300964 - 12/20/13 01:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Confucian said:
There are only 2 explanations for your full-retard posts on the government:

1) Either you have firsthand experience of being screwed over in which you falsely blamed the government (highly unlikely)

2) You are an uninformed moron (who thinks he's smart) who gets all his "news" from far-right blogs, talk radio, other uninformed moron friends, and far-right websites (highly likely)



How wonderfully substantive.  I have been screwed over by the government repeatedly as has every single citizen worth a shit.





wow, i cant tell if this person is serious or not. this is as far as i got through this thread with out being overwhelmed by someone's stupidity. impressive. some people are antiauthoritarians mr or ms con, some are authoritarians..like you it seems. lets just reflect on history a bit eh? hmmm, yeah. your ilk, even if under different names and causes has been the worst proliferater of human atrocities in all of history. congratulations.

good intentions though eh? pfft. ideologues.


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taste the effing rainbow


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Offlinesixxy
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19300970 - 12/20/13 01:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Confucian said:
There are only 2 explanations for your full-retard posts on the government:

1) Either you have firsthand experience of being screwed over in which you falsely blamed the government (highly unlikely)

2) You are an uninformed moron (who thinks he's smart) who gets all his "news" from far-right blogs, talk radio, other uninformed moron friends, and far-right websites (highly likely)





You can fall to your knees and suck the governments cock, let them stick a microscope up you ass and examine every aspect of your life, and wear a clown suit and a studded dog collar and get on your hind legs and beg when the government says to, but I stand by what I say.

THe government has caused the problems that have fucked the country up.  Period.  Government needs to GTFO of the way and let THE PEOPLE run the country.




im with you, only fully corrupt people far removed or complete zealots are authoritarians (like this con person). ive been fighting those motherfuckers since i was six.
surprise, now we live in a g o novel.


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taste the effing rainbow


Edited by sixxy (12/20/13 01:51 AM)


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OfflineEddYerb
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: sixxy]
    #19301362 - 12/20/13 04:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Do you nutters not believe in tax?!?


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OfflineEddYerb
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... *DELETED* [Re: EddYerb]
    #19301373 - 12/20/13 04:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove


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Invisiblemyc_check1212
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: EddYerb]
    #19301467 - 12/20/13 05:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

NAFTA, ACA, Iraq and Afghanistan, NSA, Patriot Act, Inflation, IRS, EPA,War Powers Act and drone strike programs

that's off the top of my head


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Lord_Senate: Pedophiles, rapists and everything in between.

pastywhyte said: I'm not going to rush, I believe crow is best served cold.

AhabMcBathsalts said: This is why democracy doesn't work. Because idiots like this get a fucking vote.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19301973 - 12/20/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The number 1 problem in America:

- The people see the government as the enemy instead of a teammate.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #19302004 - 12/20/13 09:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
The number 1 problem in America:

- The people see the government as the enemy instead of a teammate.



Yea the teamate that steals my wealth through taxation and gives it to a parasitic class of americans who do not even contribute to the system. When welfare programs are brought under control and the state is restrained in its ability to spend money then I will view them more favorabley.


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OfflineHorizon
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Patlal]
    #19302115 - 12/20/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
The number 1 problem in America:

- The people see the government as the enemy instead of a teammate.




You have brought up a valid point. The government is a system that any American can contribute to.


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Stanhope is right :drunk:


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19302140 - 12/20/13 10:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
The number 1 problem in America:

- The people see the government as the enemy instead of a teammate.



Yea the teamate that steals my wealth through taxation and gives it to a parasitic class of americans who do not even contribute to the system. When welfare programs are brought under control and the state is restrained in its ability to spend money then I will view them more favorabley.




The welfare budget represents only 10% of the federal budget and has pregressivelly been reduced in the last 5 years. If we take the breakdown of this 10% you'll realize that maybe 2 to 3 percent represent money going to families and children, another 2 to 3 percent goes to unemployment, then the last 4 to 6 percent goes to social exclusive (illnesses).

I think you just pick on these people for no good reasons. The defense budget represents 22% of all spending. more than twice what the welfare system costs.

If you absolutely want to pick on someone, you most definitely should pick on the elderly. They represent 23% of the total spending and they are also sucking the healthcare budget dry (healthcare is 26% of the budget).

The defense budget and old people is what's killing America, not the welfare class.


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Edited by Patlal (12/20/13 02:10 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Patlal]
    #19302227 - 12/20/13 10:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You mean the old people who were ripped off for decades?


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Invisiblemyc_check1212
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19303076 - 12/20/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

By healthcare you mean picking up the bill/outright providing for people who can't/wont take care of themselves? That's welfare.

I'll agree to the defense budget being too much, but even then I'm getting something for my buck. Things that go boom, things that shoot, all sorts of cool shit. Not to mention a "workforce" of hard, disciplined,motivated individuals ready at a moments notice and committed until the job is done, or until America loses stomach. Whichever comes first


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Lord_Senate: Pedophiles, rapists and everything in between.

pastywhyte said: I'm not going to rush, I believe crow is best served cold.

AhabMcBathsalts said: This is why democracy doesn't work. Because idiots like this get a fucking vote.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #19303870 - 12/20/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
The number 1 problem in America:

- The people see the government as the enemy instead of a teammate.




Because they have demonstrated by their sleazebaggery and willingness to ignore the constitution that they are the enemy.

The number 1 problem in America IS the government.

They want and have taken too much control. They ignore laws when it suits them. They spy  on their people. They discriminate. They cheat. They trample. They change the rules in the middle of the game. They take from those who do, to give to those who don't. They stick their nose where it doesn't belong. They sell weapons to those who should not have them. They scream that slowing the rate of increase in a program is a "cut" in that program.

Our government has gone from a shining star to a crumpled shit stained wad of toilet paper.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinespixce
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19308943 - 12/21/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

POLITICAL PARTIES ARE STUPID :crankey: i hate right wing for their wars (because thats just what we need right?) and left wing for their gun control (you know how well criminals follow the law right?)


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Edited by spixce (12/21/13 05:57 PM)


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: spixce] * 1
    #19309001 - 12/21/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

spixce said:
POLITICAL PARTIES ARE STUPID :crankey: i hate right wing for their wars (because thats just what we need right?) and left wing for their gun control (you know how well criminals follow the law right?)




The Democratic party (the left)  largely supported both wars with their congressional votes. Their party also continued both conflicts, and supported intervention in Libya


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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleSynthe
Gatorade me, bitch!
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19317483 - 12/23/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Okay, if our country was "run by the people", as you so eloquently put it, and not the government, what people would you have run it? Would you appoint your nascar-watching third cousin who resides at a run-down trailer park as national treasurer?

And if there is no official government around to, you know, have America declared as a country, what's to stop any other country from claiming once-American land as there own and relocating the "wild anarchists" that would then inhabit the lands that were once known as America?


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Synthe]
    #19318541 - 12/23/13 09:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I never said I wanted NO government.  my point was we have TOO MUCH of it.  We had a lot smaller government before, and things were better.  The bigger the government gets, the worse the country becomes.  It's a big, bloated system with a bunch of people whose sole purpose is to make the government bigger so they can get more power.


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Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19318771 - 12/23/13 10:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If you look at Republican and Democrats from a universal perspective, the republicans are trying to keep us enslaved and the democrats are trying to loosen the reigns from the slavers.

I don't know if either part really wants to free us.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: teknix]
    #19318790 - 12/23/13 10:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It's like the democrats want to get us more rope to work better and make them more money, but not enough we will escape.


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Offlinetheindian
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: EddYerb]
    #19319510 - 12/24/13 02:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It is very important note that the democrats and republicans of the 19th century are nothing like they are today. Democrats republicans is the oldest surviving party in United State. They supported small government, and the southern agrarian society. They supported slavery and states rights and their largest base. Its nice world political news. Thanks for sharing with us.


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Invisiblemyc_check1212
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: theindian]
    #19319840 - 12/24/13 06:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Also important to note, two screen names same puppet. Plus your links are lame. Theindian and theindianrepublic. Stay classy brah have some firewater chief


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Offlinestarfire_xes
I Am 'They'
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19320721 - 12/24/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
Tell me all the bad things that have happened to America that has been caused by the government.



Quote:

myc_check1212 said:
NAFTA, ACA, Iraq and Afghanistan, NSA, Patriot Act, Inflation, IRS, EPA,War Powers Act and drone strike programs

that's off the top of my head




Well Mr. Edd Yerb, he sure shut you up in a hurry didn't he?  Tell us how great those things are that the government has done for us.  :smirk:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: teknix] * 2
    #19321678 - 12/24/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If you look at Republican and Democrats from a universal perspective, the republicans are trying to keep us enslaved and the democrats are trying to loosen the reigns from the slavers.

I don't know if either part really wants to free us.




Enslaved to what?  The greatest source of oppression in the US is the IRS, which is being empowered more and more every day.  Do you know what I consider slavery?  Being forced to toil until May to fund a government that does dick for me but funds millions and millions of complete fuckups who don't work and who suck when they actually bother to show up.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19322319 - 12/24/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think both of you must have pretty easy lives to equate either to slavery.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #19322584 - 12/24/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So says the lawyer who doesn't make any money and doesn't pay shit in taxes.  The product of my work is being confiscated at the point of a gun to be given to shitbags.  What is my option?  Not make an income at all and join the parasite parade?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19322719 - 12/24/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

No one owns you as property or forces you to do labor.  Calling your situation slavery is bullshit rhetoric that minimizes the horrors of slavery down to the level of a minor inconvenience.


--------------------
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Ask an Attorney

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19322735 - 12/24/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
No one owns you as property or forces you to do labor.  Calling your situation slavery is bullshit rhetoric that minimizes the horrors of slavery down to the level of a minor inconvenience.




Yes, I know that is accurate in absolute terms.

Work and fund shitbags or not work and don't fund shitbags but join them.  What wonderful choices.  Either way, massa got a gun.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19322775 - 12/24/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I know you like to complain about that, but it doesn't make it slavery or anything like it.  You could make the same argument in a discussion about rape.  I realize you feel like a victim, but even you would agree that not all victims are created equal.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19322810 - 12/24/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I know.  I already copped to hyperbole.  Do I have to do it in every post and if so for how long?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19322829 - 12/24/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

After you've personally apologized to every former slave, at their graves, you'll be absolved.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19322839 - 12/24/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Are you two arguing because Mush or Sweeper aren't here?  By the way I haven't seen any idiotic posts from Mush lately.  Did he get banned again?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19322860 - 12/24/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

He got a month ban


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19322962 - 12/24/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
He got a month ban



:lolsy:

What did he say? Any idea?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19325757 - 12/25/13 02:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
After you've personally apologized to every former slave, at their graves, you'll be absolved.




As a African American man I can attest this to be a fact. By the very virtue of my Ebony skin, I have the authority to speak for all of my people.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Barack Obama II]
    #19344153 - 12/29/13 11:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Can that guy explain to me why the EPA was a bad thing?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Blazedeg]
    #19344189 - 12/29/13 11:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Blazedeg said:
Can that guy explain to me why the EPA was a bad thing?




Because it is used politicially to attack certain industries.  The CONCEPT isnt bad but really, what have they achieved?  the US air and water is cleaner than ever, and has been improving since the early 70s.  The one key factor in clean air is the catalytic converter which was implemented to comply with EPA regulation.

The problem is, the EPA regulates and legislates i.e. they make decisions and rules that CONGRESS should be making. 

US industries have no compelling reason to poison the air or water. If they did, they would either get fined, or people would be angry at them. 

Remember what Van Jones, the short lived green czar said:  "The color of communism is no longer red, it is GREEN"


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19345212 - 12/30/13 06:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
The problem is, the EPA regulates and legislates i.e. they make decisions and rules that CONGRESS should be making. 




That's the point of a government agency.  The EPA has to operate within the confines of congressional legislation just like every other federal agency.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19347009 - 12/30/13 04:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
The problem is, the EPA regulates and legislates i.e. they make decisions and rules that CONGRESS should be making. 




That's the point of a government agency.  The EPA has to operate within the confines of congressional legislation just like every other federal agency.



The EPA operates outside of Congressional legislation quite a bit.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19347375 - 12/30/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Lol...support that claim with some evidence, please.  Thank you in advance.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19347524 - 12/30/13 05:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19347751 - 12/30/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

How, exactly, is that outside of the authority delegated to the epa through legislation?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19347841 - 12/30/13 06:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

How is it within their authority to determine that a naturally occurring gas necessary for plant life to be a pollutant?  Do you think they also have the authority to declare oxygen a pollutant?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19347906 - 12/30/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Almost all pollutants are naturally occurring substances.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19347965 - 12/30/13 07:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Really?  I would look at the list before I made that statement if I were you.  For instance I do not believe that CFCs are naturally occurring.  I could be wrong but I don't think so.  Or PCBs and I could go on.

Of course you are correct in the broader sense that it is the dose that makes the poison but this is beyond the pale.  It is an essential gas, not a pollutant.  Life on earth would be gone without it.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19349972 - 12/31/13 06:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Of course it's essential in a certain concentration.  Above that level, however, it becomes harmful.  At an even higher level, it's toxic.  You know all of this.  The point of listing it as a pollutant doesn't mean that the goal is to eradicate all CO2 emissions...You know that, too. 

The point is that once it's on the list, acceptable levels can be regulated.  Are humans going to be fined for breathing out too much CO2?  Of course not.  Scientists, however, have come to the consensus that human activity is responsible for climate change on this planet and the most significant cause is carbon emissions.  I know you're one of the few die-hard holdouts hanging on to your denial, but that doesn't change the facts.

The EPA has been delegated the authority to look at the science and make determinations.  If Congress disagrees, they always have the power to override any decision of the EPA or to disband the EPA altogether.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19350400 - 12/31/13 09:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
US industries have no compelling reason to poison the air or water. If they did, they would either get fined, or people would be angry at them. 





As long as the industries don't get caught, it's very cost effective for them to pollute. I worked in a CAFO for a short stint, and those guys were all butthurt about the EPA and had no qualms about subverting the law as long as they thought they wouldn't get caught.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Barack Obama II]
    #19351477 - 12/31/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Negro please, you've never worked a day in your life. However you are expert in all things law, in particular when you think you won't get caught


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19351491 - 12/31/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Of course it's essential in a certain concentration.  Above that level, however, it becomes harmful.  At an even higher level, it's toxic.  You know all of this.  The point of listing it as a pollutant doesn't mean that the goal is to eradicate all CO2 emissions...You know that, too.




From 3 hundredths of a percent to 4 hundredths of a percent?  You might as well declare semen a pollutant.  You know as well as I do that this is a power grab that has not one damn thing to do with pollution.
Quote:

 

The point is that once it's on the list, acceptable levels can be regulated.  Are humans going to be fined for breathing out too much CO2?  Of course not.  Scientists, however, have come to the consensus that human activity is responsible for climate change on this planet and the most significant cause is carbon emissions.  I know you're one of the few die-hard holdouts hanging on to your denial, but that doesn't change the facts.




Bull fucking shit.  I would stick to law if I were you and completely avoid opining on anything scientific.  It is beyond your ken.
Quote:



The EPA has been delegated the authority to look at the science and make determinations.  If Congress disagrees, they always have the power to override any decision of the EPA or to disband the EPA altogether.




This is a problem with giving unelected bureaucrat control freaks absolute power but I don't believe they actually have it by law.  This is going to the big court, I hope.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19351534 - 12/31/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

It's all just a waist of time. :feelsbatman:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19351622 - 12/31/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

I don't need to opine about this...the scientific community has already spoken, and I'll take their consensus over the opinion of a contractor any day.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19351682 - 12/31/13 03:59 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Trouble comes when you mix politics with science.

the facts don't necessarily agree with what enlil asserts, there is not a consensus.

Politically motivated people want to claim there is though.

and even if scientists agree, its not logical to also agree just because a group of people say it


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19351696 - 12/31/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't need to opine about this...the scientific community has already spoken...



The "scientific community" is not monolithic. I've never read of an actual scientist calling CO2 a pollutant.

Quote:

...and I'll take their consensus over the opinion of a contractor any day.



Science doesn't work by consensus. And there isn't even a consensus in the scientific community that CO2 is a pollutant.


Phred


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19351928 - 12/31/13 05:05 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't need to opine about this...the scientific community has already spoken, and I'll take their consensus over the opinion of a contractor any day.



No, they have not.  The media community has spoken


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19352059 - 12/31/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Of course they don't call it a pollutant.  I never claimed they did.  But nearly every climate expert agrees that climate change is partially caused by human activity increasing carbon dioxide concentration.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19352100 - 12/31/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Of course they don't call it a pollutant.  I never claimed they did.  But nearly every climate expert agrees that climate change is partially caused by human activity increasing carbon dioxide concentration.




The EPA has deemed it a pollutant.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19352122 - 12/31/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Yup.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19352159 - 12/31/13 06:08 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Of course they don't call it a pollutant.  I never claimed they did.  But nearly every climate expert agrees that climate change is partially caused by human activity increasing carbon dioxide concentration.



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Of course they don't call it a pollutant.  I never claimed they did.  But nearly every climate expert agrees that climate change is partially caused by human activity increasing carbon dioxide concentration.




The EPA has deemed it a pollutant.



Quote:

Enlil said:
Yup.




Stop breathing


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19352199 - 12/31/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Your reading comprehension sucks.  Phred said scientists don't call co2 a pollutant...I agreed.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19352382 - 12/31/13 07:12 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Of course they don't call it a pollutant.  I never claimed they did.  But nearly every climate expert agrees that climate change is partially caused by human activity increasing carbon dioxide concentration.




I think now,  most climate experts don't think CO2 is significant as a greenhouse gas, but that halogenated hydrocarbons are.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: falcon]
    #19352438 - 12/31/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Some think that, but I dont think most do.  Still 97% agree that climate change is anthropogenic.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19353228 - 12/31/13 11:40 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Well, we are having a record cold winter.  I guess its because CO2 is trapping heat and causing 'warming' :smirk:

On a serious note, at least one group of researchers have noted that the falling temperatures in the last few years are well coordinated with the sunspot activity.

What is not EVER mentioned in any of these theories is that the atmospeheric cycles/temperature changes are part of a FEEDBACK CONTROL SYSTEM.  It has a certain response time.  It takes tens of years for any change in a variable to be realized.  And by that time, some mechanicsm has acted that counteracts the effect. 

The earth is remarkably resilient.  Given a change, it's chemistry/reactions/feedback will change in such a way as to balance out the changes that occur.

The same thing happens in the human body.  If say, a certain chemical/neurotransmitter, etc, gets too high, the body reacts and changes its metabolism and offsets the changes and, in effect neutralizes them.

To think that man with his pathetic little amounts of energy/pollutants causes great change is ridiculous.

Just the activity of sunspots has enough energy to alter the affects of the weather for tens of years--way more than anything man could do. 

And the key word there is ENERGY.. It takes energy to make changes.  What is the source of energy that is greatest in the Solar System?  THE SUN..  Not the lame little amounts of energy generated by man made processes.  I mean you have to be an arrogant son of a bitch to believe that man puts out energy that is even close to what the sun produces.  And energy is the source of change--weather, temperature change, etc. 


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19353246 - 12/31/13 11:47 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)


red box is modern day


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: psyconaught]
    #19353313 - 01/01/14 12:13 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Here is Alexander Tyler’s (or whoever’s) observation:

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years.

During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence: 1. From bondage to spiritual faith; 2. From spiritual faith to great courage; 3. From courage to liberty; 4. From liberty to abundance; 5. From abundance to complacency; 6. From complacency to apathy; 7. From apathy to dependence; 8. From dependence back into bondage."

America has been on a steady decline in every facet since the end of WWII. That was the height of her power, even though she allied with one of largest butchers in history, the Soviet Union, which killed at least 60,000,000 white Christians. This nation is so ass backwards, that when the demise of this nation is spoken of in generations to come, it will be a marvel how a people could be so blind and ignorant, and so easily deceived. Well, maybe it hasn't been easy, but nevertheless most people are simply brainwashed.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: happygolucky]
    #19353321 - 01/01/14 12:15 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Ha, and there's still people who believe in global warming. Do they know about this?

http://weathermodification.com/


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19353809 - 01/01/14 06:09 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Well, we are having a record cold winter.  I guess its because CO2 is trapping heat and causing 'warming' :smirk:


Weather and climate aren't the same thing
Quote:



And the key word there is ENERGY.. It takes energy to make changes.  What is the source of energy that is greatest in the Solar System?  THE SUN..  Not the lame little amounts of energy generated by man made processes.  I mean you have to be an arrogant son of a bitch to believe that man puts out energy that is even close to what the sun produces.  And energy is the source of change--weather, temperature change, etc. 



This is where you miss the whole point.  No one is claiming that human energy releases are warming the planet.  Over 97% of climate scientists are of the opinion that humans are to blame for global warming, however.
See also this.


I'll take their opinions over the opinion of a few anonymous internet users any day.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19353888 - 01/01/14 07:31 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Over 97% of climate scientists are of the opinion that humans are to blame for global warming, however




You mean the 97% of the 77 active climatologists that answered the survey?

Huh.

I'm not a climatologist. I don't know one way or the other. I do know enough to not take bandied about numbers seriously though. As a lawyer, why don't you?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19353942 - 01/01/14 08:10 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Over 97% of climate scientists are of the opinion that humans are to blame for global warming, however.
See also this.


I'll take their opinions over the opinion of a few anonymous internet users any day.



This is why you believe the absurd things you do... you uncritically accept as gospel the spewings of bullshit artists. That 97% number has been debunked by dozens of different statisticians by now. The survey from which that figure was plucked was totally bogus to begin with and the reporting on it hysterically exaggerated. Here is just one of dozens of analyses thoroughly eviscerating it --

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/20/the-97-consensus-myth-busted-by-a-real-survey/

Read it and weep.



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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19353955 - 01/01/14 08:19 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Over 97% of climate scientists are of the opinion that humans are to blame for global warming, however




You mean the 97% of the 77 active climatologists that answered the survey?




No...97% of the 11,944 papers written on the subject that express an opinion....

Phred: That link speaks to a different number altogether, but you're welcome to believe whatever you want.  I actually read the meta-study AND the dissenting studies.  If you had done the same, you'd likely come to the same conclusion I did.  Unfortunately, that won't happen because you're content to have your information fed to you by those who share your political philosophy. 

The only debate about the cause of global warming is in the media and in politics.  There is no real debate among experts.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19354024 - 01/01/14 09:05 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Link the paper to which you refer. If it's the garbage by Cook and Nuccitelli, I've read it. It is bunk. It is massively flawed in several ways, as dozens of critics have pointed out in great detail.

Quote:

Unfortunately, that won't happen because you're content to have your information fed to you by those who share your political philosophy. 

The only debate about the cause of global warming is in the media and in politics.  There is no real debate among experts.



There is no one posting in this forum who is better informed on the global warming scam than I am. Unlike the majority who natter on about it here, I read far more extensively than they do, and I understand what I read.

There is no evidence that the earth's atmosphere is warming by any statistically significant amount due to humans burning stuff. None. However, that fact is beside the point when it comes to political discussion.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19354052 - 01/01/14 09:19 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

You're right.  It is irrelevant to the topic of the thread and the forum.  In addition, it's completely fruitless to argue the issue with a self-proclaimed expert who disregards the consensus of real experts on the topic.

In the end, it's obvious that you're just another conservative defending the party line simply because it's the party line.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19354105 - 01/01/14 09:42 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Well, we are having a record cold winter.  I guess its because CO2 is trapping heat and causing 'warming' :smirk:


Weather and climate aren't the same thing
Quote:



And the key word there is ENERGY.. It takes energy to make changes.  What is the source of energy that is greatest in the Solar System?  THE SUN..  Not the lame little amounts of energy generated by man made processes.  I mean you have to be an arrogant son of a bitch to believe that man puts out energy that is even close to what the sun produces.  And energy is the source of change--weather, temperature change, etc. 



This is where you miss the whole point.  No one is claiming that human energy releases are warming the planet.  Over 97% of climate scientists are of the opinion that humans are to blame for global warming, however.
See also this.


I'll take their opinions over the opinion of a few anonymous internet users any day.





You are a lawyer, I'm an engineer and scientist.  this link is nothing but opinions about what people think.

I deal in facts.  Someone show me tha data that supports the climate change theory and Ill believe it. 

I want someone to show me the hot, hard cock on global warming.  And you know what?  If it exists, I haven't seen it. 

Enlil, you of all people should know that a bunch of opinions and speculation isn't anything but rubbish when it comes to proving a point.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19354130 - 01/01/14 09:51 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

In addition, it's completely fruitless to argue the issue with a self-proclaimed expert who disregards the consensus of real experts on the topic.



Once again --

Matters of scientific fact are not determined by consensus.

There is no consensus among those who are experts in the field. The 97% figure is complete and utter bullshit.

Quote:

In the end, it's obvious that you're just another conservative defending the party line simply because it's the party line.



Facts have nothing to do with political leaning. And the thing about the whole Global Warming scam is that it has nothing to do with facts. It has always been agenda-driven pseudo-science from its earliest days but with each year that passes it becomes harder and harder for objective people to ignore the lack of evidence that humans burning stuff requires government policies being imposed to avert disaster.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19354131 - 01/01/14 09:51 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

When 97% of the experts agree, it's probative.  Similarly, expert opinions have always been admissible evidence.  As I've repeatedly said, I'm not an expert...so I can only rely on those who are.  I also think that it's very interesting the way that non-expert opinions seem to divide along party lines.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19354136 - 01/01/14 09:53 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

When 97% of the experts agree, it's probative.



But 97% of "the experts" don't agree. That number is completely fraudulent.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19354418 - 01/01/14 11:45 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

I understand where you are coming from in a lawyer's perspective however, hard science is only accepted when data is gathered and applied using the scientific method. 

That is, if a premise is made i.e. I believe the one that is made is 'C02 levels produced by man are causing the temperature to increase because 'C02 traps heat in the atmosphere' (paraphrased because I don't know the exact argument) then 1) it must be proven by data and experiements that support the idea 2) all other variables and alternative hypothesis that could account for the phenomena have to be disproven as the cause. 

For example, alternative hypothesis to 'man made global warming' are 1) sunspot activity generates such huge amounts of energy that it affects tides, ocean currents, and water temperatures, and hence causes drastic changes in surface temperature around the earth.

Indeed sunspot activity provides far more impetus for climate change because the level of energy produced in sunspot activity is several magnitudes larger than any man made energy sources.

2) Increasing temperature reduces the solubility of C02 in water.  therfore, temperature may be increasing and THAT is what causes CO2 to increase in the atmosphere, because the earths oceans cannot hold as much C02 under increasing temperature.

3) The models used to predict 'man made global warming' are a joke.  Now think about this one.  The fucking weather man on TV can't predict the weather a week in advance, but we are supposed to believe that scientists can predict how the weather will change in the next 100 years??????  :rofl2:

OK, those are examples.  So you might say, well, prove the alternative theories. 

WRONG!!!  In the scientific method, the person who generates a hypothesis has to disprove the alternate explanations of the phenomena.  They have the burden of proof.  The people who generate the alternate explanations dont have to do a fucking thing.  Once an alternate theory is proposed as an explanation, it needs to be disproven by data and experiment.

And that is where the man-made global warming theory breaks down.  The Warmers have not produced evidence or experiments that disprove the plethora of alternate explanations that explain climate change.

Note that I didn't say global climate change is BS, I said that it hasn't come close to being proven by SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

And with that explanation, one can now see the fallacy--or lets put it bluntly--the absolutely idiotic statement of Al Gore when he said 'The debate is over' 

So Enlil, you need to think of this as a scientist, not a lawyer because in lawyer talk your argument is technically valid.  But in scientific talk its nonsense.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19354458 - 01/01/14 11:56 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

That's my point though...I'm not a scientist.  97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.  I have to assume that they aren't all incompetent.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19354724 - 01/01/14 01:24 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.



But that's just it... they don't agree. That number is a completely fraudulent number.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19366483 - 01/04/14 12:13 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's my point though...I'm not a scientist.  97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.  I have to assume that they aren't all incompetent.





My point was they haven't applied the scientific method.  There are a plethora of alternate hypothesis which have to be disproven, and they can't do it.  MAN MADE global warming is just a bull-shit theory.  That's why I mentioned Al Gore's 'duh,the debate is over' statement was one of the most ignorant, non-scientific pieces of progressive bullshit to ever be stated.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19366693 - 01/04/14 02:18 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.



But that's just it... they don't agree. That number is a completely fraudulent number.


Phred





Ya its higher, because guys like Starfire who have no credibility whatsoever in Climatology can say “as a scientist....” infact there is a pretty strong disinformation campaign funded by energy companies and presented by groups like the american chemistry council, who are in fact chemists paid of by whatever corporate interest to try to give their cause legitimacy. Ya I’m going to listen to a Chemist employed by BP that tells me massive oil consumption has no effect on the climate :rolleyes:


And since when are Engineers scientists? I go to a very prestigious engineering school (I’m not an engineer) and none of them call themselves scientists.


Thats like me, a business major lets say under the employ of a engineering PAC, “i can tell you that bridge is structurally stable” even though i have zero credibility in that field.
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
That's my point though...I'm not a scientist.  97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.  I have to assume that they aren't all incompetent.





My point was they haven't applied the scientific method.  There are a plethora of alternate hypothesis which have to be disproven, and they can't do it.  MAN MADE global warming is just a bull-shit theory.  That's why I mentioned Al Gore's 'duh,the debate is over' statement was one of the most ignorant, non-scientific pieces of progressive bullshit to ever be stated.




You know how i know you are not a scientist, That first sentence right up there.

You know who also isn’t a scientist, Al Gore. I don’t know why you guys act like Al Gore was the first guy that came up with this, because he made a movie about it.The limits of growth came out in like 69 and that is when scientists seriously started to look at this.

Do you also question the validity of Evolution? And act like there is a serious debate there as well :loldongs:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: elax420]
    #19366856 - 01/04/14 04:38 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.



But that's just it... they don't agree. That number is a completely fraudulent number.


Phred





Ya its higher, because guys like Starfire who have no credibility whatsoever in Climatology can say “as a scientist....” infact there is a pretty strong disinformation campaign funded by energy companies and presented by groups like the american chemistry council, who are in fact chemists paid of by whatever corporate interest to try to give their cause legitimacy. Ya I’m going to listen to a Chemist employed by BP that tells me massive oil consumption has no effect on the climate :rolleyes:


And since when are Engineers scientists? I go to a very prestigious engineering school (I’m not an engineer) and none of them call themselves scientists.


Thats like me, a business major lets say under the employ of a engineering PAC, “i can tell you that bridge is structurally stable” even though i have zero credibility in that field.
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
That's my point though...I'm not a scientist.  97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.  I have to assume that they aren't all incompetent.





My point was they haven't applied the scientific method.  There are a plethora of alternate hypothesis which have to be disproven, and they can't do it.  MAN MADE global warming is just a bull-shit theory.  That's why I mentioned Al Gore's 'duh,the debate is over' statement was one of the most ignorant, non-scientific pieces of progressive bullshit to ever be stated.




You know how i know you are not a scientist, That first sentence right up there.

You know who also isn’t a scientist, Al Gore. I don’t know why you guys act like Al Gore was the first guy that came up with this, because he made a movie about it.The limits of growth came out in like 69 and that is when scientists seriously started to look at this.

Do you also question the validity of Evolution? And act like there is a serious debate there as well :loldongs:





It's higher?  Show me the PROOF of global warming.  You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.  By the way, we are having one of the coldest winters on record.  :lolsy:

Oh, and engineers ARE scientists.  Engineering is applied physics.  Didn't you know that?  But I guess I don't know anything about science since I have a BS in electrical engineerig, enough credits for and MSEE, almost enough credits for a masters in engineering physics, and enough for a bachelors in mathematics.  Oh, and by the way, I graduated with honors.

Any YOUR qualifications for discussing science are?  Im not sure why you are called ex lax because you are still full of shit.  :smirk::lolsy:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19366876 - 01/04/14 04:49 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

oh, and by the way Ex Lax, don't bother responding to my threads anymore.  You are neither qualified to discuss matters of science, nor are you articulate enough to even make a logical point. 

So don't bother with your nonsense anymore, I don't wqnt to waste my time, you are an embarrasment, you know absolutely NOTHING about science, and I'm not really interested in listening to 'Progressive' bullshit when it masquerades as educated and logical argument. 

OK?  Don't respond anymore to me, I won't respond to you, that way we don't have to argue and we won't get banned. 

MODS, please note I'm offering a truce here with Ex Lax so I will consider any further attempts by him to badmouth me trolling.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19366929 - 01/04/14 05:22 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:

It's higher?  Show me the PROOF of global warming.  You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.  By the way, we are having one of the coldest winters on record. 



This is where you show your own ignorance about the issue.  You keep talking about weather when this entire debate is about climate.  They aren't the same at all.  This is at least the second time you've done this in this thread, despite being called out on it before.

The fact is that global warming can and will lead to colder winters.  It can create greater extremes of weather period.  You seriously sound like someone who hasn't looked into even the most fundamental principals of climate and weather systems.  Please explain to me why I should consider your opinion to have any weight in comparison to 97% of the experts on the issue?

Despite what you and phred say, the debate actually IS over.  The anthropogenic global warming deniers are out there, sure...but so are the intelligent design/creation advocates.  Anthropogenic global warming is about as universally accepted as evolution among scientists.  There really is no legitimate debate except in the media and Congress.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19366955 - 01/04/14 05:43 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Please explain to me why I should consider your opinion to have any weight in comparison to 97% of the experts on the issue?



One more time... the 97% number has been repeatedly shown by numerous sources to be fraudulent.

Quote:

Anthropogenic global warming is about as universally accepted as evolution among scientists.



Do the majority of scientists believe human activity has some effect on climate? Of course, duh. So does the activity of termites (seriously... I am not making this up). What the majority of scientists don't believe is that the very small amount of warming since 1800 is due solely to humans burning stuff.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19367124 - 01/04/14 07:42 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Say it as many times as you want, dude...It's apparent you haven't looked into the issue very deeply.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19367314 - 01/04/14 09:09 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

The reverse is true. It is quite obvious your entire knowledge of the subject amounts to "97% of the people who should know say they believe it". The problem is that this number is completely fraudulent.

On the other hand, my knowledge on the subject is vast. I've looked into this issue more deeply than anyone else posting on this forum, hands down. That's why even before reading Cook, Nuccitelli et al I knew there would be at the very least glaring flaws in their methodology. As it turns out, there was also outright fraud. As in, deliberate misrepresentation of the positions of those their survey purported to represent.

There is nowhere close to a scientific consensus that humans burning stuff will cause the temperature of the earth's atmosphere to rise even a little bit, much less by a harmful amount, and anyone who believes there is such a consensus is - to put it tactfully - naive.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19367756 - 01/04/14 11:48 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

I'm quite certain that you're incorrect both about your level of knowledge and your conclusions.  So here we sit...two anonymous internet users who think the other is incorrect.

I'd hazard a guess that this isn't the first situation like this, nor will it be the last.  In either case, the opinions of a few users on a drug forum don't amount to a hill of beans in the grander scheme.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19367904 - 01/04/14 12:19 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Please explain to me why I should consider your opinion to have any weight in comparison to 97% of the experts on the issue?



One more time... the 97% number has been repeatedly shown by numerous sources to be fraudulent.

Quote:

Anthropogenic global warming is about as universally accepted as evolution among scientists.



Do the majority of scientists believe human activity has some effect on climate? Of course, duh. So does the activity of termites (seriously... I am not making this up). What the majority of scientists don't believe is that the very small amount of warming since 1800 is due solely to humans burning stuff.


Phred





A strong correlation in the rise of the industrial revolution and corresponding climate patterns versus CO2 emissions. How do you even make this claim? I sure would like to see it substantiated...


According to American Chemical Society http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/climatescience/greenhousegases/industrialrevolution.html

Quote:

Data for the past 2000 years show that the atmospheric concentrations of CO2, CH4, and N2O – three important long-lived greenhouse gases – have increased substantially since about 1750. Rates of increase in levels of these gases are dramatic. CO2, for instance, never increased more than 30 ppm during any previous 1,000-year period in this record but has already risen by 30 ppm in the past two decades.






Quote:

These increases in greenhouse gas concentrations and their marked rate of change are largely attributable to human activities since the Industrial Revolution (1800). The increases and current atmospheric levels are the result of the competition between sources (the emissions of these gases from human activities and natural systems) and sinks (their removal from the atmosphere by conversion to different chemical compounds--for example, CO2 is removed by photosynthesis and conversion to carbonates). Brief summaries of these factors for several important greenhouse gases are given in Greenhouse Gas Sources and Sinks with graphics showing the human and natural contributions to their emissions (and sinks).





Now, Correlation may not equal causation, but seeing how greenhouse gas emissions and how they have risen in the past 100 years, it doesnt even take a climatologist to see the collaboration between global warming and human made industrial processes.

Of course some paleoclimatologists claim dinosaur farts raised the temperature of the earth, if dinosaur farts were that powerful i dont doubt humans could make a serious impact either.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/17953792


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #19367952 - 01/04/14 12:29 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

No, dude...Phred knows more about it that anyone else in this thread...he said so.  He also knows more than 97% of experts.

Phred:  You should really edit this entry since you're clearly the one with the inside knowledge:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19368104 - 01/04/14 12:54 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
oh, and by the way Ex Lax, don't bother responding to my threads anymore.  You are neither qualified to discuss matters of science, nor are you articulate enough to even make a logical point. 

So don't bother with your nonsense anymore, I don't wqnt to waste my time, you are an embarrasment, you know absolutely NOTHING about science, and I'm not really interested in listening to 'Progressive' bullshit when it masquerades as educated and logical argument. 

OK?  Don't respond anymore to me, I won't respond to you, that way we don't have to argue and we won't get banned. 

MODS, please note I'm offering a truce here with Ex Lax so I will consider any further attempts by him to badmouth me trolling.





Go into the other thread. If you want the numbers. No sense in wasting all my time finding that shit when you guys don’t even look at it.

Atleast i dont respond to disagreement with some bullshit call to authority, when you are not a scientist in any way shape or form. Outside of physics you literally have as much understanding on science as any HS grad.


I am even doubting you are an engineer, with how simple minded some of your posts come across. If you know anything about Global Warming at all you would know that extreme weather patterns are a side effect of it and do not disprove it.

Btw i don’t know what part of the country you live in but my state has had the warmest on record, nice facts there super engineer scientist, who likes talking out of his ass about things he doesn’t understand, and replying by nah nah nah cant  hear you.


And how about you stop openly trolling me. Im going to respond to you threads as long as you keep making these disinfo things.

Especially the ones dealing with the economy. IF you actually went to college you would realize how ridiculous half these threads are. Oh wait professors are all a part of the liberal agenda :lol:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19368342 - 01/04/14 01:43 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm quite certain that you're incorrect both about your level of knowledge and your conclusions.



Your certainty is misplaced. There have been dozens of global warming threads in this forum over the years. No one in those threads has demonstrated more in-depth knowledge than I have. And no-one has ever provided any evidence that the burning of stuff by humans is responsible for the very small increase in the temperature of the earth's lower atmosphere since 1800. Starfire is absolutely correct on that.

But the members of this forum shouldn't feel ashamed at their failure to produce such evidence, because no one else in any other forum has produced any either.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19369653 - 01/04/14 06:29 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm quite certain that you're incorrect both about your level of knowledge and your conclusions.  So here we sit...two anonymous internet users who think the other is incorrect.

I'd hazard a guess that this isn't the first situation like this, nor will it be the last.  In either case, the opinions of a few users on a drug forum don't amount to a hill of beans in the grander scheme.





The opinions of scientists who fudge the data in IPCC resarch to match their models doesn't amount to a hill of beans either, in the grander scheme. :smirk:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19370061 - 01/04/14 07:55 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Why do we need scientists to realize we are destroying our environment?    When my old man was in his 20s he lived in visalia ca. It was back in the 60s and he says you could see all the way to the sequoia mountains like 60 miles away. the sky was clear and blue, now you cant see shit , just a wall of brown shit. And it doesnt just block out the mountains , it hides buildings. You can see it when your driving down out of the mountains and you think , holy fucking shit Im going to breath that, and you try to cope by telling yourself , well at least its not LA .
  No scientist needed at that point....you guys can take your global warming argument and shove it.
  Who gives a fuck about a few degrees in temp, melting ice , bad weather , and dying polar bears when the air is poisoning me? You think  the poor fucks who live here  give a fuck about what a scientist has to say?



They dont need to see the evidence or hear the argument, and they probably dont give flying fuckall about the warming part. They know its bad.
  You think this guy needs some dork in a lab coat to tell him shit is bad to breath and he should cover his mouth? He probably knows.



  I dont need a scientist to tell me all that brown shit I see in the air is fuckin things up.
  And the thicker it is its more likely to trap heat. Ill just take my ignorance on that one .Even if you and the other 3% of scientists are right you ll be wrong eventually. Population growth will make sure of it. Its like lighting a barbeque in the center of your house. Eventually things will get warmer and the air will kill you. Pretty fuckin simple.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: psilynut]
    #19370488 - 01/04/14 09:59 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Why do we need scientists to realize we are destroying our environment?    When my old man was in his 20s he lived in visalia ca. It was back in the 60s and he says you could see all the way to the sequoia mountains like 60 miles away. the sky was clear and blue, now you cant see shit , just a wall of brown shit. And it doesnt just block out the mountains , it hides buildings. You can see it when your driving down out of the mountains and you think , holy fucking shit Im going to breath that, and you try to cope by telling yourself , well at least its not LA .
  No scientist needed at that point....you guys can take your global warming argument and shove it.
  Who gives a fuck about a few degrees in temp, melting ice , bad weather , and dying polar bears when the air is poisoning me? You think  the poor fucks who live here  give a fuck about what a scientist has to say?



They dont need to see the evidence or hear the argument, and they probably dont give flying fuckall about the warming part. They know its bad.
  You think this guy needs some dork in a lab coat to tell him shit is bad to breath and he should cover his mouth? He probably knows.



  I dont need a scientist to tell me all that brown shit I see in the air is fuckin things up.
  And the thicker it is its more likely to trap heat. Ill just take my ignorance on that one .Even if you and the other 3% of scientists are right you ll be wrong eventually. Population growth will make sure of it. Its like lighting a barbeque in the center of your house. Eventually things will get warmer and the air will kill you. Pretty fuckin simple.




OK, shit us some data that supports you viewpoint.  Want to know what the EPA Says? 

"EPA creates air quality trends using measurements from monitors located across the country. The table below shows that air quality based on concentrations of the common pollutants has improved nationally since 1980."

Here's the source link...

http://www.epa.gov/airtrends/aqtrends.html




Oh, SHIT!!!  According to the EPA, air quality has been improving steadily since 1970.  But fuck, we need to tax and regulate because there is a problem with air quality.

Face it, the air-pollution/global warming bullshit is a political agenda designed by certain people to enrich themselves. 

That they've sold it to a bunch of progressives as science is not surprising.  After all, 'if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit'

That's game, set, and match in favor of 'the deniers'  :smug: :smirk:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19370500 - 01/04/14 10:03 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Your ignorance is showing again.  Smog and climate change are unrelated.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19370947 - 01/05/14 12:27 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Your ignorance has been showing for days.  You keep claiming '97% of scientists by consensus' you should know as a lawyer how to argue.  claiming that some experts agree on something somehow makes it true is a logical fallacy called 'appeal to authority'

Now, I know you can do better than that.  But then again, many arguments in favor of global warming are riddled with specious reasoning.  And to be fair, many arguments against it are also specious. 


Note that I never said there is no global climate change.  I just said there is insufficient experiment and data to draw any conclusion. 

By the way, according to one environmental research group (If I can find the link I will post it) CO2 and methane, 2 of the supposedly bad greenhouse gases, are insignificant sources of heat trapping.  The 2 KNOWN MAJOR SOURCES of causing dramatic temperature change are 1) Solar Activity and 2) Water Vapor. 

With number 2) I now propose a hypothesis:  Since catalytic converters convert harmful engine emissions into water vapor (and CO2) the conversion of harmful emissions into water vapor will lead to global temperature increase.  :smirk:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19371680 - 01/05/14 07:45 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Once again, you've failed to read and understand.  I never said that it must be true because 97% of scientists agree.  I said that I am not an expert, but that 97% of experts agree that climate change is the product of human activity.  As a result, I choose to go with the 97%.

A 97% consensus is very compelling evidence.  All of your arguments about faulty science etc. are undercut by the fact that 97% of experts see it differently.  Either 97% are incompetent because they can't spot incompetence, or they are biased.  In either case, that would mean that 97% of experts are not experts at all.

I'm going to need a bit more than the word of a few internet knowitalls to believe that the 97% are lying or are not experts.

If there were a legitimate debate about the issue, there would be some national or international science bodies that would disagree with the theory of anthropogenic global warming.  There isn't...not a single one.  Are you really arguing that all of those scientists missed the flaws in the AGW argument?  I'm sorry...I don't buy that 97% of experts are actually incompetent.

That only leaves bias/intentional misrepresentation.  As unlikely the notion of 97% incompetence rate is, the notion that 97% are engaged in some kind of conspiracy to deceive the public is absurd to the point of lunacy.  I've only seen that kind of thinking among the truther crowd.

Finally, lets focus this back on topic where it started.  The EPA's treatment of CO2 as a pollutant is based on scientific findings by national/international scientific bodies.  You claim those findings are incorrect.  Tell me, how would you rather the EPA make decisions:  1) By listening to the scientific community, or 2) by political process


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19371692 - 01/05/14 07:47 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

:thumbup:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19371782 - 01/05/14 08:32 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:A 97% consensus is very compelling evidence.  All of your arguments about faulty science etc. are undercut by the fact that 97% of experts see it differently.  Either 97% are incompetent because they can't spot incompetence, or they are biased.  In either case, that would mean that 97% of experts are not experts at all.



Why do you continue to accept the obviously bogus number as gospel? The Cook, Nuccitelli et al paper has been so thoroughly debunked by so many people who actually know statistics and research design protocols (not even to mention the blatant and deliberate misrepresentation by Cook et al) that you look absurd endlessly parroting the number. It's bogus. 

Quote:

If there were a legitimate debate about the issue, there would be some national or international science bodies that would disagree with the theory of anthropogenic global warming.  There isn't...not a single one.



There are thousands of scientists who disagree. It's not hard to discover that very obvious fact.

Quote:

As unlikely the notion of 97% incompetence rate is, the notion that 97% are engaged in some kind of conspiracy to deceive the public is absurd to the point of lunacy.  I've only seen that kind of thinking among the truther crowd.



I have to admit I am baffled by your deliberate refusal to educate yourself on this issue. I've seen you post some extremely intelligent stuff on this board, so your inability to grasp that occasionally scientific papers are published which on closer inspection turn out to be bogus comes as a real surprise.

Quote:

Finally, lets focus this back on topic where it started.  The EPA's treatment of CO2 as a pollutant is based on scientific findings by national/international scientific bodies.



No, it isn't. The EPA's ruling was based on a complete and utter ignorance of science and an absurd redefinition of a commonly-used word: "pollutant".

Quote:

Tell me, how would you rather the EPA make decisions:  1) By listening to the scientific community, or 2) by political process.



The decision by the EPA to categorize CO2 as a "pollutant" was reached through a blatantly political process.



Phred


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19371878 - 01/05/14 09:09 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

You keep saying it was thoroughly debunked as if I'm supposed to take your word for it.  I don't.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19371917 - 01/05/14 09:22 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

There are thousands of scientists who disagree. It's not hard to discover that very obvious fact.




I find this very very hard to believe, do you have any sources to such a bogus claim?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #19372204 - 01/05/14 10:31 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Quote:

There are thousands of scientists who disagree. It's not hard to discover that very obvious fact.




I find this very very hard to believe, do you have any sources to such a bogus claim?



When I say it's not hard to discover, I mean it's not hard to discover. That's what search engines are for. But if you insist on being spoonfed, here's some information about a survey of 1,854 scientists whose specialty is meteorology and atmospheric science.

Quote:

Not all scientists agree that global warming is man-made. Nearly half of meteorologists and atmospheric science experts don’t believe that human activities are the driving force behind global warming, according to a survey by the American Meteorological Society.

The survey of AMS members found that while 52 percent of American Meteorological Society members believe climate change is occurring and mostly human-induced, 48 percent of members do not believe in man-made global warming.




So there's almost a thousand just there, in just one scientific organization located in a single country. Click the link above and read the whole paper if you wish. While Red Crayon is doing that, let's look a little deeper into this survey, shall we?

Quote:

Furthermore, the survey found that scientists who professed “liberal political views” were much more likely to believe in the theory of man-made global warming than those who without liberal views.



I'm shocked! Shocked, I say!

Quote:

“Political ideology was the factor next most strongly associated with meteorologists’ views about global warming. This also goes against the idea of scientists’ opinions being entirely based on objective analysis of the evidence, and concurs with previous studies that have shown scientists’ opinions on topics to vary along with their political orientation,” writes survey author Neil Stenhouse of George Mason University.

“The result suggests that members of professional scientific organizations have not been immune to influence by the political polarization on climate change that has affected politicians and the general public,” Stenhouse writes.



No shit, Sherlock. It's not a question of "the science is settled" but of "vote the party line, Komrad! Al Gore says it is so, therefore it must be so... he is so much smarter than that evil chimpy MacBushHaliburton, after all."

Then there is the ongoing online petition you can check out here. Over thirty thousand signatures so far, though not all are atmospheric scientists.


Quote:

Enlil said:

You keep saying it was thoroughly debunked as if I'm supposed to take your word for it.  I don't.



That's why I said your ignorance is deliberate. You believe the bogus number because your God, community organizer B. H. Obama proclaimed it to be so. Why expend the effort to do even rudimentary fact-checking?

If you had shown even a fraction of the skepticism to such an obviously fake number you showed to the conventional wisdom on the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin case, you would have easily discovered articles such as this one --

Quote:

97% Study Falsely Classifies Scientists' Papers, according to the scientists that published them

The paper, Cook et al. (2013) 'Quantifying the consensus on anthropogenic global warming in the scientific literature' searched the Web of Science for the phrases "global warming" and "global climate change" then categorizing these results to their alleged level of endorsement of AGW. These results were then used to allege a 97% consensus on human-caused global warming.

To get to the truth, I emailed a sample of scientists whose papers were used in the study and asked them if the categorization by Cook et al. (2013) is an accurate representation of their paper. Their responses are eye opening and evidence that the Cook et al. (2013) team falsely classified scientists' papers as "endorsing AGW", apparently believing to know more about the papers than their authors.



I suggest you go to the link and see how many scientists agree that the Cook et al paper misrepresents their work.

Cook and his cohorts claim they sent out questionnaires to almost 12,000 scientists. Yet just 77 answered the question, so it isn't a sample size of almost 12,000 scientists, it is a sample of 77 scientists, several of whom explicitly say their research has been misrepresented. Besides, the question asked is worthless:

Quote:

The question Cook and his alarmist colleagues surveyed was simply whether humans have caused some global warming. The question is meaningless regarding the global warming debate because most skeptics as well as most alarmists believe humans have caused some global warming. The issue of contention dividing alarmists and skeptics is whether humans are causing global warming of such negative severity as to constitute a crisis demanding concerted action.



Indeed. Has human activity caused some change in the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere since 1800 or 1850 or whenever? Almost certainly! So has termite activity. The disagreement among scientists looking into the issue is over the magnitude of that change.

Quote:

Viewing the Cook paper in the best possible light, Cook and colleagues can perhaps claim a small amount of wiggle room in their classifications because the explicit wording of the question they analyzed is simply whether humans have caused some global warming. By restricting the question to such a minimalist, largely irrelevant question in the global warming debate and then demanding an explicit, unsolicited refutation of the assertion in order to classify a paper as a ‘consensus’ contrarian, Cook and colleagues misleadingly induce people to believe 97 percent of publishing scientists believe in a global warming crisis when that is simply not the case.

Misleading the public about consensus opinion regarding global warming, of course, is precisely what the Cook paper sought to accomplish. This is a tried and true ruse perfected by global warming alarmists. Global warming alarmists use their own biased, subjective judgment to misclassify published papers according to criteria that is largely irrelevant to the central issues in the global warming debate. Then, by carefully parsing the language of their survey questions and their published results, the alarmists encourage the media and fellow global warming alarmists to cite these biased, subjective, totally irrelevant surveys as conclusive evidence for the lie that nearly all scientists believe humans are creating a global warming crisis.

These biased, misleading, and totally irrelevant “surveys” form the best “evidence” global warming alarmists can muster in the global warming debate. And this truly shows how embarrassingly feeble their alarmist theory really is.



Tru dat.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #19372312 - 01/05/14 10:55 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Quote:

There are thousands of scientists who disagree. It's not hard to discover that very obvious fact.




I find this very very hard to believe, do you have any sources to such a bogus claim?





http://www.petitionproject.org/index.php



That was found with a 20 second internet search  :smirk:

http://inpursuitofhappiness.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/22000-scientists-disagree-with-un-global-warming-push/


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19372401 - 01/05/14 11:17 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

One more point:  Scientists can't even predict the weather with any accuracy a week ahead, but we are supposed to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and put the worlds energy resources under control of the UN because they can predict what's going to happen in a hundred years??????


:lolsy:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19372415 - 01/05/14 11:23 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Phred, do you even read your own sources?  Here is a quote from YOUR LINK:

"93% of actively publishing climate scientists indicated they are convinced that humans have contributed to global warming. Our findings also revealed that majorities of experts view human activity as the primary cause of recent climate change: 78% of climate experts actively publishing on climate change, 73% of all people actively publishing on climate change, and 62% of active publishers who mostly do not publish on climate change. These results, together with those of other similar studies, suggest high levels of expert consensus about human-caused climate change (Farnsworth & Lichter 2012, Bray 2010)." (emphasis mine)

And as for your other link...so a dozen or so out of the over 11k scientists looked at claim that errors were made?  wow...that's compelling, dude.  Also, even the scientists in that article admit that humans activity is responsible for a significant portion of global warming.

I also really loved how you made it a political issue by invoking the name of a president that I didn't even vote for.  Just one more reason to doubt your objectivity on the issue.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19372425 - 01/05/14 11:25 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
One more point:  Scientists can't even predict the weather with any accuracy a week ahead, but we are supposed to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and put the worlds energy resources under control of the UN because they can predict what's going to happen in a hundred years??????





How many times do I have to tell you?  Weather and climate are not the same thing.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/noaa-n/climate/climate_weather.html


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19372545 - 01/05/14 11:54 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
One more point:  Scientists can't even predict the weather with any accuracy a week ahead, but we are supposed to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and put the worlds energy resources under control of the UN because they can predict what's going to happen in a hundred years??????





How many times do I have to tell you?  Weather and climate are not the same thing.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/noaa-n/climate/climate_weather.html





I know weather and climate arent the same thing but they are related.  And what makes you think scientists can predict the climate in 100 years?  Based on an unproven hypothesis and driven by people with a political agenda?

Note I am still not saying there is NOT climate change.  I am saying I don't see a compelling reason to turn over control of the worlds energy resources to a political agency based on an UNPROVEN hypothesis.

Just remember what Van Jones, the short lived 'green czar' of the first Obama administration said:

"The color of communism is no longer red.  It is green."

Green and global warming have nothing to do with the health of the planet.  They have to do with a political agenda. 

By the way, every time there is a tornado or storm, why do the climate clowns start screaming "SEE!!! GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE?"


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19372585 - 01/05/14 12:03 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:

I know weather and climate arent the same thing but they are related.  And what makes you think scientists can predict the climate in 100 years? 


Stop making strawman arguments.  Nowhere in any post have I claimed that scientists can accurately predict the climate in 100 years.  That has NOTHING to do with my claim. 
Quote:

Note I am still not saying there is NOT climate change.  I am saying I don't see a compelling reason to turn over control of the worlds energy resources to a political agency based on an UNPROVEN hypothesis.


What, exactly, is the unproven hypothesis?  You admit there is climate change but deny that humans have contributed significantly to it?  Find me a national or international scientific body that agrees with you.
Quote:


By the way, every time there is a tornado or storm, why do the climate clowns start screaming "SEE!!! GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE?"


Because an increase in global temperatures increases the likelihood of more severe weather over the long run.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19372683 - 01/05/14 12:24 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:

I know weather and climate arent the same thing but they are related.  And what makes you think scientists can predict the climate in 100 years? 


Stop making strawman arguments.  Nowhere in any post have I claimed that scientists can accurately predict the climate in 100 years.  That has NOTHING to do with my claim. 
Quote:

Note I am still not saying there is NOT climate change.  I am saying I don't see a compelling reason to turn over control of the worlds energy resources to a political agency based on an UNPROVEN hypothesis.


What, exactly, is the unproven hypothesis?  You admit there is climate change but deny that humans have contributed significantly to it?  Find me a national or international scientific body that agrees with you.
Quote:


By the way, every time there is a tornado or storm, why do the climate clowns start screaming "SEE!!! GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE?"


Because an increase in global temperatures increases the likelihood of more severe weather over the long run.





Show ME the proof of MAN MADE climate change.  Can't?

I didn't admit there is climate change.  I said I am not saying there is not climate change, or let me clarify that I don't have enough evidence either way to say it is caused by MAN.

And I presented a link with 31,000+ american scientists alone who don't believe the theory.  Did you look at it? 

By the way, do you think that the large number of scientists who are funded by a political organiation (The UN) to do research on climate change can just come right out and say, aww, this is bullshit? 

It takes just a little research to find data analysis that shows that global climate change predictions arent happening like the Global Alarmists have predicted

It takes a lof of research to find valid data supporting it.

It takes little research to find people who claim 'the consensus is' or 'oh my god, the sea level rise will flood coastal cities' or 'the polar bears or dying'

That is, it is easy to find logical fallacies masquerading as science.  So let me tell you this one more time:

Science does NOT depend on consensus.  It only depends on the truth. 

There was also once a consensus that the earth was flat, and that evolution was bullshit, and that the earth was the center of the universe.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19372722 - 01/05/14 12:33 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

First, there was never a scientific consensus that the earth was flat.  That's just nonsense.

Second, your petition just proves my point that the debate only exists in the public, the media, and politics.  It doesn't exist in the scientific community. 

I think this discussion has run its course...at least for my part.  I've yet to see any compelling evidence undercutting the strong evidence in favor of the AGW argument and consensus thereof.  You, phred, and anyone else are all free to disregard the mountains of studies and evidence.  I choose to take what I consider to be the only rational approach to the issue:  Deferring to those people who are experts in the field.  Should new information become available in the future, I'll change my views accordingly if I deem it warranted.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19372785 - 01/05/14 12:46 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:

I think this discussion has run its course...at least for my part.  I've yet to see any compelling evidence undercutting the strong evidence in favor of the AGW argument and consensus thereof.  You, phred, and anyone else are all free to disregard the mountains of studies and evidence.  I choose to take what I consider to be the only rational approach to the issue:  Deferring to those people who are experts in the field.  Should new information become available in the future, I'll change my views accordingly if I deem it warranted.





Well, talk about ignorance.  What did the IPCC say in the fifth annual assesment review?  (AR5)


Here is what the are now saying about all the supposed 'apocalyptic events' arising from MMGW:


    Collapse of the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (a circulating current in the north Atlantic in which waters at high latitudes are cooled, sink and flow toward the equator, are warmed, rise to the surface, and then flow once more toward higher latitudes): Very unlikely (0-10%) that the AMOC will undergo a rapid transition (high confidence).

    Ice sheet collapse: Exceptionally unlikely (0-1%) that either Greenland or West Antarctic Ice sheets will suffer near-complete disintegration (high confidence).

    Permafrost carbon release: Possible that permafrost will become a net source of atmospheric greenhouse gases (low confidence).

    Clathrate methane release: Very unlikely (0-10%) that methane from clathrates will undergo catastrophic release (high confidence).

    Tropical forests dieback: Low confidence in projections of the collapse of large areas of tropical forest.

    Boreal forests dieback: Low confidence in projections of the collapse of large areas of boreal forest.

    Disappearance of summer Arctic sea ice: Likely (66-100%) that the Arctic Ocean becomes nearly ice-free in September before mid-century under high forcing scenarios such as RCP8.5 (medium confidence).

    Long-term droughts: Low confidence in projections of changes in the frequency and duration of megadroughts.

    Monsoonal circulation: Low confidence in projections of a collapse in monsoon circulations.


THIS IS THE IPCC's OWN Conclusion.  HERE IS THE LINK TO THEIR RESEARCH--

http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/#.Usm2NMeabDd



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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19372824 - 01/05/14 12:55 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

More irrelevant bullshit.  This discussion isn't about possible outcomes of global warming...It's about causes of global warming.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19372870 - 01/05/14 01:05 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
More irrelevant bullshit.  This discussion isn't about possible outcomes of global warming...It's about causes of global warming.





Its completely relevant.  It is what they base their power grab on. :lolsy:

You are a cultist, you know that?  No matter what is presented, you will believe what you believe.  Because that is what the Cult Proclaims .


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19372900 - 01/05/14 01:10 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

It's not relevant to anything I've said.  I've made ZERO claims about the effects of global warming.  My thesis is, and has always been, that there is a strong scientific consensus that human activity is a significant cause of global warming.

That's it.

http://thecontributor.com/why-climate-deniers-have-no-scientific-credibility-one-pie-chart

All of your other bullshit is just attacking a claim I never made.  That's what people do when they can't attack the claim made.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19373014 - 01/05/14 01:29 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Well great.  I guess if they can't prove anything harmful from the 'consensus' then we shouldn't spend hundreds of billions of dollars and turn over control of the planets energy resources to the UN should we?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19373128 - 01/05/14 01:52 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Certainly, we can prove that there are harmful effects.  Not catastrophic effects, but harmful.  The oceans are getting more acidic as a result of carbon emissions, and that does have a harmful effect on plant life. 

You are quite the black and white person, aren't you?  If someone says that global warming is partially caused by human activities, you hear "the end of the world is coming because of global warming".  Even that petition you linked only asked about "catastrophic effects" of global warming...not whether or not it's happening or is caused by humans.  Also, if the EPA calls CO2 a pollutant, you see it as "turn[ing] over control of the planets energy resources to the UN."

The world isn't quite as black and white as you seem to believe it to be.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19373176 - 01/05/14 02:02 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Phred, do you even read your own sources?  Here is a quote from YOUR LINK:

"93% of actively publishing climate scientists indicated they are convinced that humans have contributed to global warming. Our findings also revealed that majorities of experts view human activity as the primary cause of recent climate change: 78% of climate experts actively publishing on climate change, 73% of all people actively publishing on climate change, and 62% of active publishers who mostly do not publish on climate change. These results, together with those of other similar studies, suggest high levels of expert consensus about human-caused climate change (Farnsworth & Lichter 2012, Bray 2010)." (emphasis mine)



Oh, boy. You really have swallowed the Koolaid, haven't you? One by one...

-- "publishing climate scientists" ≠ "scientists"
-- "have contributed to" ≠ "are the major cause of"
-- "human activity" ≠ "humans burning stuff"
-- 93% ≠ 97%
-- 78% ≠ 97%
-- 62% ≠ 97%

Is it plausible some of the very small possible increase (I say "possible" because the surface temperature record reaching back that far has been hopelessly corrupted, but for the sake of argument let's assume it hasn't been) in recorded lower atmosphere temperatures since 1800 can be attributed to human activity? Of course! But that's not the issue.

Quote:

And as for your other link...so a dozen or so out of the over 11k scientists looked at...



And again you indicate your willful ignorance. It's not "over 11k scientists", it's 77. Have you not even read the Cook et al paper yet? Because I have. 

Quote:

Also, even the scientists in that article admit that humans activity is responsible for a significant portion of global warming.



Which scientists? And by the way, "opine" is not a synonym for "admit".

The bottom line is that the AMS survey I linked covers twenty-four times more respondents than does the blatantly bogus survey by Cook et al, and the split between those respondents is nearly even: just a hair more than half believe that what little global warming is occurring is mostly caused by humans. Note that it can't even be determined from the answers just what it is that humans are doing to cause this warming. There is no way, for example to determine how many respondents believe the warming is caused not by burning fossil fuels but instead by paving over vast stretches of the earth, or deforesting big chunks of the Amazon rain forest, or depositing industrial soot onto ice caps, for example.

Quote:

Enlil said:
You admit there is climate change but deny that humans have contributed significantly to it?  Find me a national or international scientific body that agrees with you.



Done. See above. Is the American Meteorological Society not a national scientific body?



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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred] * 1
    #19373214 - 01/05/14 02:15 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:

Done. See above. Is the American Meteorological Society not a national scientific body?




Wow...you really are ignorant about it.  You don't even know the position held by your own source?  Here is what the AMS says about global warming:

"There is unequivocal evidence that Earth’s lower atmosphere, ocean, and land surface are warming; sea level is rising; and snow cover, mountain glaciers, and Arctic sea ice are shrinking. The dominant cause of the warming since the 1950s is human activities."
http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/2012climatechange.html

It goes on to say:

"Avoiding this future warming will require a large and rapid reduction in global greenhouse gas emissions. The ongoing warming will increase risks and stresses to human societies, economies, ecosystems, and wildlife through the 21st century and beyond, making it imperative that society respond to a changing climate."


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19373252 - 01/05/14 02:27 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Gee... a position drafted by the board of directors of an organization a year and a half ago conflicts with the current opinions of the membership at large. That's a first!

Look, I have never denied that many (perhaps even most) of the scientists in the world believe that fifty per cent or more of the very small amount of supposed warming recorded in the last two centuries, or even the last century, or even the last half century, is due to human activity. What I have truthfully pointed out is:

-- scientific fact is not determined by consensus.
-- global warming alarmists lie about the degree of whatever actual consensus there is

That is entirely apart from the political factors of the whole global warming hoax. Even if humans - by burning stuff - are delaying by a teensy bit the inevitable coming of the next ice age (and yes, Enlil, it is inevitable) that is hardly justification for wasting enormous sums of money in an admittedly futile attempt to alter the rate of that warming to any measurable degree.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19373276 - 01/05/14 02:32 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Your quoted source, the AMS, seems to be pretty adamant that is it "imperative that society respond to changing climate" and that it will "require a large and rapid reduction in global greenhouse gas emissions."  That you disagree is of no consequence, really.  You're not an expert any more than I am.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19373371 - 01/05/14 02:55 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

You're not an expert any more than I am.



No, I am vastly more knowledgeable on the subject than you. Your entire argument is based on unquestioningly believing authority figures (such as Cook, Nuccitelli et al) who have been repeatedly shown to twist reality to suit their own ends. Or did you miss that whole Climategate thing?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19373406 - 01/05/14 03:04 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
No, I am vastly more knowledgeable on the subject than you.



Lol...now you're turning it into a dick size contest?  Feel free, dude.  I don't claim to be an expert on climate change, and I don't believe you to be one.  If, however, your frail ego requires you to claim superiority in the subject matter...by all means, do what you have to do.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19373444 - 01/05/14 03:16 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

If, however, your frail ego requires you to claim superiority in the subject matter...by all means, do what you have to do.



It has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with fact. It is a fact that your precious 97% figure is hogwash. It is also fact that the reason I could prove it is hogwash was due not to "...information fed to you by those who share your political philosophy," but to my familiarity with the subject matter. 

Your claim was that there was no real debate among "experts". I have conclusively demonstrated there is in fact such debate. My ability to show your uncritically-accepted 97% shibboleth as hokum is not because I'm "just another conservative defending the party line simply because it's the party line," but because I know my stuff.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19373482 - 01/05/14 03:28 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
I know my stuff.



No need to be so defensive, dude.  No one is attacking you.  We all think you're very smart and well-informed.  You're just a super guy, all around, and everyone respects you and what you say.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19374258 - 01/05/14 06:37 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I am impressed with Enlil lately. My first impression was that of a cookie cutter libertarian nutjob like Zappa and Starfire but time and time again he has demonstrated legitimate critical thinking.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: sytar]
    #19374268 - 01/05/14 06:40 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I fully agree.  He's one of the most balanced and honest players here.  :manofapproval:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19374626 - 01/05/14 08:13 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
-- scientific fact is not determined by consensus.




At some point you have to ask yourself, "Are all those scientists, with fancy PhDs in every possible field, who are over 90% in agreement with each other that Global Warming is real, wrong, after spending lifetimes studying the data...And am I really right?"

Here's the answer: You are wrong. They are right.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Confucian]
    #19375802 - 01/06/14 04:28 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

At some point you have to ask yourself, "Are all those scientists, with fancy PhDs in every possible field, who are over 90% in agreement with each other that Global Warming is real, wrong, after spending lifetimes studying the data...And am I really right?"



And what of the thousands of scientists equivalent in every way to the ones you just described, who disagree with them? Scientists like Richard Linzen, Judith Curry, Willy Soon, Idso, Tol and literally thousands of others?

The alarmists bluster "the science is settled" and "the consensus is solid", but neither statement is even remotely true. The link I provided shows the split is as close as damn to 50-50 in the largest scientific body of atmospheric scientists in the world - the American Meteorological Society. Half and half.

So which half is right? The alarmists or the skeptics? The observed data is on the side of the skeptics. Observation trumps speculation every time, my friend.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19375852 - 01/06/14 05:09 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The link I provided shows the split is as close as damn to 50-50 in the largest scientific body of atmospheric scientists in the world - the American Meteorological Society. Half and half.




No, it doesn't.  I'm convinced you didn't even read the document you linked. First, that study only got data from 1821 members of the organization.  This is about 1/4 of the total members.  Further, even among those that did respond, only 9% said that AGW is not occurring.  An additional 17% said that there was not enough information to determine whether or not AGW is occurring.  73%, however, said that humans are at least partially responsible for GW.

That is far from a 50/50 split.  And those are just the ones that voluntarily responded.

The study also looked at publications and found that, "93% of actively publishing climate scientists indicated they are convinced that humans have contributed to global warming."

Now, where is your 50/50 split again?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19375878 - 01/06/14 05:28 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

I'm convinced you didn't even read the document you linked.



Clearly you didn't.

Quote:

First, that study only got data from 1821 members of the organization.  This is about 1/4 of the total members.



That's a whole hell of a lot better than your precious 97% paper. Cook and Nuccitelli got data from 77 out of just under 12,000. That's substantially less than one per cent. Then, like so many other global alarmists, they just couldn't resist misrepresenting the data derived from that paltry sample. 

Quote:

73%, however, said that humans are at least partially responsible for GW.



Once again, 73% ≠ 97. And once again, there are almost no skeptical scientists who will categorically state that human activity produces no climate change at all. Of course human activity affects climate! So does termite activity. The question has always been: by how much?

Quote:

The study also looked at publications and found that, "93% of actively publishing climate scientists indicated they are convinced that humans have contributed to global warming."



Now you are just repeating yourself. Once again --

-- "publishing climate scientists" ≠ "scientists"
-- "have contributed to" ≠ "are the major cause of"
-- "human activity" ≠ "humans burning stuff"
-- 93% ≠ 97%

Quote:

Now, where is your 50/50 split again?



In the table in the linked survey.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19375923 - 01/06/14 05:49 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

The table doesn't support your 50/50 theory either. The only way it even gets close (48/52) is if you include those that think that humans are equally responsible for GW in the 48%.  That's a ridiculous argument.

My claim has always been that the scientific consensus is that humans are responsible for a SIGNIFICANT portion of GW.  Your study, as weak as it is, supports my claim.

In fact, EVERY SOURCE you've linked supports my claim.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19376157 - 01/06/14 07:46 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Can we include natural phenomenon? Like CO vents, fault lines, fissures,magma glows and volcanoes? Since the formation of the planet these events have dumped pollutants and ash into the atmosphere on a scale that humans in a thousand years couldn't match. They might be partially to blame more so than petrol addicted humans and cow farts


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19376175 - 01/06/14 07:54 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I'm no expert, so I'm just going with what the experts say...and the vast majority of them say that human activity is a significant cause of global warming.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19376189 - 01/06/14 08:01 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm no expert, so I'm just going with what the experts say...and the vast majority of them say that human activity is a significant cause of global warming.




with due respect to the experts, they're missing a big part of the equation


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19376304 - 01/06/14 08:34 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Oh I'm sure they never even considered natural carbon emissions :facepalm:

You should write a letter to let them know.  It'll blow the whole issue wide open, bro.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19376359 - 01/06/14 08:47 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Well maybe not carbon, but the spectrum of other gases and emissions that our earth can produce.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19376399 - 01/06/14 08:56 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Dude, all of that is well known by the experts and many laymen.

Natural processes have been going on since the beginning of time, yet CO2 levels are higher than they've been in 400,000 years.  As carbon is emitted, it is also absorbed by natural processes.  Since the industrial revolution (especially the last 50 years), the CO2 released into the atmosphere has resulted in a significant increase in concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere because the absorption processes are not keeping up with the emissions.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19376431 - 01/06/14 09:03 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Haven't tree ring studies in Europe theorized that overall global temperatures were warmer during the roman empire through the middle ages?

and ease up counselor, I'm just talking with you. I mean no static


Edited by myc_check1212 (01/06/14 09:05 AM)


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19376475 - 01/06/14 09:17 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Dude, all of that is well known by the experts and many laymen.

Natural processes have been going on since the beginning of time, yet CO2 levels are higher than they've been in 400,000 years.  As carbon is emitted, it is also absorbed by natural processes.  Since the industrial revolution (especially the last 50 years), the CO2 released into the atmosphere has resulted in a significant increase in concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere because the absorption processes are not keeping up with the emissions.




That the temperatures failed to keep rising as predicted with the level of CO2 in the atmosphere should be enough for the doom-and-gloom set to realize that we don't really have sufficient knowledge of our ecosystem to make the claims that so many have made.

The Earth warms. The Earth cools. Likely it will be forever so. "Experts" running around screaming the sky is falling and that we have but weeks/months/years to make changes before we are too far fucked to be saved... helped no-one.

The models were wrong. The claims of an increase in deadly storms was wrong. Soaring temperatures didn't happen. The lowlands have not flooded. The ozone layer has not failed. The ice-age predicted a few decades ago never came to be. The 97% number has been shown to be bogus.

I'm in favor of clean air. It looks, smells and tastes better. I'm not in favor of running around like Chicken Little jeopardizing our economy on a wild experiment.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19376522 - 01/06/14 09:38 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I haven't advocated for any specific response at all to global warming.  I also haven't made or endorsed any "doom and gloom" claims.  I have simply stated that there is no legitimate scientific debate about whether global warming is happening or whether human activity is a significant cause of it.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... *DELETED* [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19376607 - 01/06/14 10:06 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19376783 - 01/06/14 11:00 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I haven't advocated for any specific response at all to global warming.  I also haven't made or endorsed any "doom and gloom" claims.




Then I guess it's a good thing I didn't claim you did.


Quote:

I have simply stated that there is no legitimate scientific debate about whether global warming is happening or whether human activity is a significant cause of it.




Except, there are those who seemingly make legitimate claims to the contrary.

There is no shortage of scientists that claim the cycles are not unusual and that there is scant evidence that humans are to blame, or at least "significantly" to blame.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: EddYerb] * 1
    #19376805 - 01/06/14 11:05 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
It's going to be a relatively slow process. It will take many years before the effects become overwhelmingly apparent. But freak weather events and seasonal changes should be a good indicator for you.

Talk to most people who actually know the land that they live in and they will tell you that the weather has changed dramatically from when they were younger.




Ah yes, the anecdotal bunch of crap claims. I'm 56. I know the land I live in. Just about every year I hear some claim that storms are better/worse, that the snow is heavier/lighter, that the temps are higher/lower and that the seasons started later/earlier than ever. And just as often when someone actually looks at long-term weather there is little to no difference in anything other than the short-term.

What freak events?

-----
Sorry Global Warmists, But Extreme Weather Events Are Becoming Less Extreme

Just about every type of extreme weather event is becoming less frequent and less severe in recent years as our planet continues its modest warming in the wake of the Little Ice Age. While global warming activists attempt to spin a narrative of ever-worsening weather, the objective facts tell a completely different story.

New Records for Lack of Tornadoes

New data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration show the past 12 months set a record for the fewest tornadoes in recorded history. Not only did Mother Nature just set a record for lack of tornado activity, she absolutely shattered the previous record for fewest tornadoes in a 12-month period. During the past 12 months, merely 197 tornadoes struck the United States. Prior to this past year, the fewest tornadoes striking the United States during a 12-month period occurred from June 1991 through July 1992, when 247 tornadoes occurred.

The new tornado record is particularly noteworthy because of recent advances in tornado detection technology. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) is able to detect more tornadoes in recent years than in prior decades due to technological advances. Even with such enhanced tornado detection capability, the past 12 months shattered all prior records for recorded tornadoes.

NOAA posted a list of the five “lowest non-overlapping 12 month counts on record from 1954-present.” Notably, each of these low-tornado periods occur since 1986, precisely during the time period global warming alarmists claim global warming is causing more extreme weather events such as tornadoes. According to NOAA, the lowest non-overlapping 12 month counts on record from 1954-present, with the starting month, are:

197 tornadoes – starting in May 2012

247 tornadoes – starting in June 1991

270 tornadoes – starting in November 1986

289 tornadoes – starting in December 2001

298 tornadoes – starting in June 2000

On a related note, a new record for the longest stretch of consecutive days without a tornado death occurred during 2012 and 2013.

New Records for Lack of Hurricanes

Hurricane inactivity is also setting all-time records. The United States is undergoing its longest stretch in recorded history without a major hurricane strike, with each passing day extending the unprecedented lack of severe hurricanes, according to National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration data.

It has been more than 2,750 days since a major hurricane struck the United States. This easily smashes the prior record of less than 2,300 days between major hurricane strikes.

Although global warming activists and their media allies often claim global warming is making extreme weather events more frequent and severe, virtually all extreme weather events are becoming less frequent and less severe as our planet gradually warms.

Droughts, Wildfires, Etc.

Pretty much all other extreme weather events are becoming less frequent and less severe, also. Soil moisture is in long-term improvement at nearly all sites in the Global Soil Moisture Data Bank. Droughts are less frequent and less severe than in prior, colder centuries. The number of wildfires is in long-term decline despite a recent change in wildfire policy that no longer actively suppresses wildfires. Just about any way you measure it, extreme weather events are becoming quite rare.
-----


Quote:

And it just so happens that policies aiming to prevent global warming such as increased support for renewable energy and alternatives to  petrol will also benefit most people in the long term due to a decrease in cost of energy and electricity.




Good. I'll celebrate when that actually happens.

The chicken-littles have no better legs to stand on than anyone else does, It's simply a matter of who believes who.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/06/14 11:36 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19378916 - 01/06/14 07:28 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I have simply stated that there is no legitimate scientific debate about whether global warming is happening or whether human activity is a significant cause of it.



And there you are wrong. There is in fact legitimate scientific debate about the level of human contribution to what little warming may (or may not) have occurred in the last couple of centuries. The science most definitely is not settled.

You seem to believe the standard Leftist line that only reactionary illiterates hypnotized by the likes of Glenn Beck dispute the role of human activity in the matter. This again shows how little you know on the matter compared to myself. There is in fact a growing number of highly-credentialed, highly-respected scientists who have proposed alternate explanations for recent temperature changes that track far more closely with the temperature record than does the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere, including but not limited to the PDO (Pacific Decadal Oscillation) and the alteration of cosmic ray flux by solar activity.

As well, there are dozens of scientists and statisticians exposing the ongoing fraudulent manipulation of the historical temperature record, pointing out the incredibly bad siting of vast swathes of surface temperature weather stations that result in those stations grossly exaggerating what little warming there has been, debunking the infamous "hockey stick" graph and its more recent siblings, releasing thousands of e-mails from leading lights of the Alarmist movement showing their concerted efforts to suppress the publication of any papers that might upset the money-laden applecart that is government funding on climate research, highlighting the total failure of any of the dozens of GCM projections to even come close to observed temperatures over the last seventeen years and much, much more. The people doing all the above are not knuckle-dragging, cousin-poking, corncob smokin' good ole boys takin' time out from going to tailgate parties at NASCAR events and buying Ann Coulter books, they are people with advanced degrees (often multiple degrees) in scientific fields. And there are thousands of them.

Not only is there legitimate debate, the preponderance of evidence is on the side of the skeptics.


Phred


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19379076 - 01/06/14 07:57 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

At some point you have to ask yourself, "Are all those scientists, with fancy PhDs in every possible field, who are over 90% in agreement with each other that Global Warming is real, wrong, after spending lifetimes studying the data...And am I really right?"



And what of the thousands of scientists equivalent in every way to the ones you just described, who disagree with them? Scientists like Richard Linzen, Judith Curry, Willy Soon, Idso, Tol and literally thousands of others?

The alarmists bluster "the science is settled" and "the consensus is solid", but neither statement is even remotely true. The link I provided shows the split is as close as damn to 50-50 in the largest scientific body of atmospheric scientists in the world - the American Meteorological Society. Half and half.

So which half is right? The alarmists or the skeptics? The observed data is on the side of the skeptics. Observation trumps speculation every time, my friend.


Phred




So then, this is just propaganda?

http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Confucian]
    #19379379 - 01/06/14 08:45 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

What does NASA know?  Phred is the preeminent expert on global warming.  Didn't you get the memo?


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Confucian] * 2
    #19380944 - 01/07/14 04:54 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

So then, this is just propaganda?



Follow the money.


Phred


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #19382432 - 01/07/14 01:23 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

I've read some of this guys stuff. When he starts to worry, I'll start to worry.

The entire article is pretty interesting, but on a website where TLDR seems to be the mantra... I just posted a few bits.

MIT’s Richard Lindzen, the unalarmed climate scientist


Quote:

When you first meet Richard Lindzen, the Alfred P. Sloan professor of meteorology at MIT, senior fellow at the Cato Institute, leading climate “skeptic,” and all-around scourge of James Hansen, Bill McKibben, Al Gore, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), and sundry other climate “alarmists,” as Lindzen calls them, you may find yourself a bit surprised.





Quote:

Where Lindzen hasn’t remained is in the mainstream of his discipline. By the 1980s, global warming was becoming a major political issue. Already, Lindzen was having doubts about the more catastrophic predictions being made. The public rollout of the “alarmist” case, he notes, “was immediately accompanied by an issue of Newsweek declaring all scientists agreed. And that was the beginning of a ‘consensus’ argument. Already by ’88 the New York Times had literally a global warming beat.” Lindzen wasn’t buying it. Nonetheless, he remained in the good graces of mainstream climate science, and in the early 1990s, he was invited to join the IPCC, a U.N.-backed multinational consortium of scientists charged with synthesizing and analyzing the current state of the world’s climate science. Lindzen accepted, and he ended up as a contributor to the 1995 report and the lead author of Chapter 7 (“Physical Climate Processes and Feedbacks”) of the 2001 report. Since then, however, he’s grown increasingly distant from prevalent (he would say “hysterical”) climate science, and he is voluminously on record disputing the predictions of catastrophe.





Quote:

But Lindzen rejects the dire projections. For one thing, he says that the Summary for Policymakers is an inherently problematic document. The IPCC report itself, weighing in at thousands of pages, is “not terrible. It’s not unbiased, but the bias [is] more or less to limit your criticism of models,” he says. The Summary for Policymakers, on the other hand—the only part of the report that the media and the politicians pay any attention to—“rips out doubts to a large extent. .  .  . [Furthermore], government representatives have the final say on the summary.” Thus, while the full IPPC report demonstrates a significant amount of doubt among scientists, the essentially political Summary for Policymakers filters it out.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19388710 - 01/08/14 03:25 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The reverse is true. It is quite obvious your entire knowledge of the subject amounts to "97% of the people who should know say they believe it". The problem is that this number is completely fraudulent.

On the other hand, my knowledge on the subject is vast. I've looked into this issue more deeply than anyone else posting on this forum, hands down.




That's only because you banned me for five days.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19404637 - 01/11/14 04:33 PM (10 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

So then, this is just propaganda?



Follow the money.


Phred





LOL, Im sure the same could be said of the global warming deniers or those that deny that global warming is the result of the burning of fossil fuels. I wonder how many pre-eminent scientists have received grant money from Shell or BP.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19404653 - 01/11/14 04:35 PM (10 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Phred said:
The reverse is true. It is quite obvious your entire knowledge of the subject amounts to "97% of the people who should know say they believe it". The problem is that this number is completely fraudulent.

On the other hand, my knowledge on the subject is vast. I've looked into this issue more deeply than anyone else posting on this forum, hands down.




That's only because you banned me for five days.




Dont worry, I got a warning, I guess we got out of hand on that one thread, Zappa, im sorry i insulted you and others, I normally try not to be so crass in my debates.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #19405055 - 01/11/14 06:10 PM (10 years, 19 days ago)

It was all on me.  I know how to play the game and I slipped.  Phred has also been under pressure from nitwits complaining that he shows favoritism.  He did what he had to do.  It's all good.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19408523 - 01/12/14 02:07 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

I noticed in this thread a little misconception. That climate change = global warming. I studied Environmental Engineering is college and a big chunk of a few of my classes went towards studying climate change. I had the opportunity to have access to several college studies from varying schools across the country when doing to research. Sadly I can't really access those anymore because it was on the school networks.

Anyways to sum it all up. what has been observed in the last 100 years is that the high and lows of our weather extremes are getting farther apart. During the first half of the century up to the 1970's the overall climate was fairly predictable and stable. Now we are having some years with several feet of snow and the next year its barely snowing. This rate of average increase and the variance from year to year is VERY uncommon in earths history judging from ice core samples they have been researching for the last 100 years. So overall the global climate is changing very rapidly.

The leading explanation is the increase in green house gases that help to generate just slight increase in overall global temperature avg. Its not much but in polar regions where just a little bit warmer means thousands of miles of ice melting this causes fresh water to pour into the ocean disrupting major ocean currents that help facilitate overall global patterns. Which in turn effect the speed and location of the jet streams around the world (polar vortex anyone).

People have spent their entire careers researching this. It is scientifically sound and can be explained using the laws of thermodynamics.

The leading contributing factors to green house gases is livestock farming, industry/power, cars, then natural processes (includes forest decay and volcanoes). I believe that's in order if I remember correctly.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: pretzelking]
    #19408579 - 01/12/14 02:23 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Correlation does not equal causation.

But with that said, if thermodynamis is at the root of climate change then one has to consider solar activity.  Solar activity generates vastly more energy than all the process on the earth combined, and it also correlates with changing climate patterns and currents.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19408669 - 01/12/14 02:47 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

The same argument can hold true to sun spot activity, correlation does not equal causation. Anyways though I thinks its safe to say we all acknowledge that some sort of climate change is happening globally, The next step is to understand it as much as possible instead of denying its even happening. Maybe its man made maybe its not. What we should be concerned is where will this trend go from here? And how will this effect us humans? Is this temporary? Or will this lead to dramatic change? (ie ice ages, droughts, floods etc..)


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: pretzelking]
    #19408752 - 01/12/14 03:07 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

There is always climate change, it is a good thing otherwise we would be huddled on a snowball, there is nothing happening now that is out of the norms of previous events and there is no reason to believe that a warmer planet will be less hospitable to human life


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