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 BlueLightRain
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Registered: 01/14/11
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 Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification 
#19294386 - 12/18/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey all,
It's been awhile since I've been on the board, I'm excited to kindle some dialogue.
I'm designing a mushroom cultivation mini-trial for a farm as a proposal to grow mushrooms for profit on a larger commercial scale.
The purpose of the mini-trial is to
a) show the farm that I can carefully develop a plan to cultivate mushrooms and carry it through and
b) collect data from the yield which will be used to develop a larger commercial plan for the farm
For data collection on Biological Efficiency, I'll use two commercially available Pleurotus species: Pl. pulm and Pl. ostreatus. From these two groups, the substrate will be prepared in two ways: 1) w/ anaerobic fermentation and 2) w/ pasteurization. Of these four groups, I'll also run trials to determine the highest yield based on substrate. One test will be done with chipped straw as a substrate and the other test will be done using a blend of chipped straw and 10% coffee waste, with which I've had tremendous success. From each of these groups I'll also determine if I can expand the spawn a second time (16 total groups of data, plus allowing each group to flush up to three times).
The information from this will tell me how much square footage I need for the larger, final design and how many bales of straw I'll need to consume to produce X amount of mushrooms per month.
This mini-trial fruiting chamber will be built on a tiny plot with no access to electricity. This is great because the larger commercial design is also meant to rely on as little electricity as possible. This will involve an appropriate amount of initial planning, obviously, but that's beyond the scope of this current topic.
The spawn will colonize substrates inside onion mesh bags, which themselves are inside 5-gallon buckets. Once the substrate is colonized, the mesh bags are yanked out and exposed to the greenhouse humidity. Because the entire outer surface of the colonized substrate will be exposed, the humidity needs to be pretty damn high.
Each mushroom block will occupy about 4.5 to 5 gallons of space or 0.601 to 0.668 cubic feet per mushroom block.
The fruiting chamber is designed to hold four rows of mushroom blocks (two rows on each side), six long, three high, for a total of 72 mushroom blocks inside at a time, occupying a total of 48 cubic feet inside the approximate 600-800 cubic footage of the greenhouse (I need to calculate the exact cubic feet based on the triangle of the roof). Granted, I'm not using all the space available.
The design has sustainability in mind, and is also meant to be an inexpensive low/no-tech model for farms around the world.
The humidity design is also meant to optimize maintenance, so that I don't have to refill water reservoirs every day, but rather every week or two.
As a result, I've come up with a few humidification systems around the perlite "shotgun terrarium" idea, en masse, and also emulating RogerRabbit's gravel bed inside his shiitake shipping container (if I remember correctly - does anyone have a link to his gravel humidification design?)
The mini-trial and farm is in the hills of the California bay area, where there is a bit more access to sun and is warmer than the weather directly on the coast.
I'm open to any ideas.
For the final design, we're considering an adobe-type greenhouse that can accumulate thermal mass. But, as I mentioned, that's for a later discussion.
Until then, the mini-trial fruiting chamber I've considered using involves a clear plastic King Canopy 10 foot x 10 foot greenhouse (about $250).
I currently have three ideas for humidifying the greenhouse. Every design has its advantages and disadvantages.
1.
My first humidification design is a bit of a "kiddie pool" of perlite: two wooden trays on the floor, allowing for a walkway between the two. The trays are constructed on the slightest incline to allow water to pool and leak out of a hole on the down-hill side. Both trays are 3 foot x 8 foot x 4 inches deep. Inside the trays is a layer of plastic tarping to hold the the moistened perlite. The perlite will be moistened before filling, and when the humidity declines, the perlite can be sprayed with a hose. For this purpose I'll be using about 16 cubic feet of perlite. The downside of this design is that the 4 inch deep perlite may not have proper access to air, thus locking moisture in the kiddie pool. Another downside is that it's wooden. Wood + humidity + fungi = rot.
2.
My second design is inspired by the shotgun terrarium. Instead of two wooden trays, I can actually use two rows of shotgun terrariums. Several plastic totes with holes drilled along their sides, filled with an appropriate amount of perlite. I see this being an effective method, but requires refilling each individual tote. Also, I would have to design some trenches to control the flow of excess water that spills out of the totes while I spray them with water. The maintenance on this one might be problematic and as a whole rather unappealing. Also, I might have some trouble finding plastic totes that comfortably fit the parameters of the fruiting chamber.
3.
My third design is homage to RR's gravel-stream design. A gravel trough running through the middle, trickled with water. In order to allow water to run through the gravel, I'll place a 55-gallon barrel drum behind the greenhouse and allow the water to drip out of it at a slow-enough rate that requires refilling every week or two. If constructed on a hill, water from the downside can then be fed into a separate 55-gallon barrel drum and wheeled or pumped to the drum above the fruiting chamber, thus recycling excess water.
Please give your input on these systems. #3 might be the best system, but I'm hoping I can have several minds add their input. And I'm having trouble finding the links to RR's pictures concerning his shiitake shipping container, any help?
To note: Based on my current materials pricing, I'm expecting to spend about $1,000 - $2,500 on materials, substrate, and spawn on the mini-trial.
--BLR
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 lighthouse09
Stranger thats mr. stranger
Registered: 03/16/13
Posts: 699
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 Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: BlueLightRain]
#19294437 - 12/18/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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# 3 sounds best and you can get a water pump for not to much to keep it flowing constantly. Thats what i have thought of using by putting a waterfall in my house with some shroomies and plant's growing around it  . I worked as a waterfall pond guy for a bit and know how to do all this. The ultrasonic humidifiers may also be used in this to add humidity. If it doesn't get enough humidity still add a perlite box or two. the stream/waterfall you need alot of rocks and waterfall type things to really get the humidity out into the air
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 <--This fuckin guy
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: BlueLightRain]
#19294769 - 12/18/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'd worry more about getting rid of the heat in a greenhouse than humidity. All you need for humidity is to spray as required. Spray the blocks and the floor a time or two a day and you'll be good.
Oyster mushrooms don't like heat so greenhouses may not be the best bet except in winter. Indoors, you'll need lights, so that involves electricity or at least a few solar panels.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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BlueLightRain
WhoaUnbrokenChain
Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 354
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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 Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19298065 - 12/19/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
lighthouse09 said:
# 3 sounds best and you can get a water pump for not to much to keep it flowing constantly. Thats what i have thought of using by putting a waterfall in my house with some shroomies and plant's growing around it . I worked as a waterfall pond guy for a bit and know how to do all this. The ultrasonic humidifiers may also be used in this to add humidity. If it doesn't get enough humidity still add a perlite box or two. the stream/waterfall you need alot of rocks and waterfall type things to really get the humidity out into the air
Yeah the ultrasonic humidifier is a great tool, I've had a few in the past. That would be the best option if I set up a little solar panel for the mini-trial. I haven't considered the requirements of that and until then it might be out of the scope of the mini-trial. I guess if I added all the above, the humidifier, the perlite, and the waterfall/gravel stream I would have ample humidity, but I'd like one system that is streamlined and reliable, not necessarily redundant.
Can you further describe this waterfall system?
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
I'd worry more about getting rid of the heat in a greenhouse than humidity. All you need for humidity is to spray as required. Spray the blocks and the floor a time or two a day and you'll be good.
Oyster mushrooms don't like heat so greenhouses may not be the best bet except in winter. Indoors, you'll need lights, so that involves electricity or at least a few solar panels.
RR
Hmmm, the commercial oyster strains I've priced out colonize best between 75-85 degrees F and fruit from 50-80 degrees F.
RR, can you link me to pictures/tek of your shiitake shipping container?
How about a shaded system? In the winter the glass is exposed but in the summer the light is filtered to mimic the scattered shade of a tree. I remember watching a video of Reishi production in China where the fruiting chamber is a glass house but they control shades to prevent direct light from hitting their fruiting reishi:
Also, what if I used vents to allow the movement of air? I can open or close various vents that would allow air to pass through in the event of heated weather? Obviously that would affect the humidity levels, but is there a system that considers both?
Spraying seems like a logical move. I wonder if by spraying you always have a wet floor. Does your gravel floor act as a catch?
--BLR
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: BlueLightRain]
#19302355 - 12/20/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I spray once daily and that keeps the humidity perfect. I spray to just before runoff, so very little actually penetrates the rocks to flow down the floor drains.
If you try to fruit oysters at too high a temperature, they stretch and become thin.
Mountain Mushroom Farm
Scroll down that page for some construction pictures.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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BlueLightRain
WhoaUnbrokenChain
Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 354
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19303639 - 12/20/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Mountain Mushroom Farm
Scroll down that page for some construction pictures.
RR
Genius.
Two thoughts:
1) On that page you mentioned using passive venting. In -30 F weather, how does the cold intake not affect the temperature of colonization and fruiting chambers?
2) I'm curious to know how you "clean" your fruiting chamber. A lot of mushroom farms "bleach bomb" their chambers. Is there a way to avoid this?
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: BlueLightRain]
#19303893 - 12/20/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't use bleach any more. I hate what it does to my metal shelving. We just use plain water. When it gets dirty from spraying shiitake blocks, we take a bucket of soap and water with a scrub brush and go to work between cropping cycles.
I put the colonization room at the entrance. Those walls were insulated with under-slab Styrofoam so that part of the underground structure holds heat. It's generally always near 80F in there regardless of outside temp from only heat produced by the substrates. During the winter, I keep the window open about 2". In the summer I keep it all the way open. Heat from the colonization room keeps the uninsulated(from the ground) fruiting room in the 50F to 70F range. We use no heat or cooling.
RR
--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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BlueLightRain
WhoaUnbrokenChain
Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 354
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19304363 - 12/20/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Awesome.
So if I'm understanding your passive system well enough: the air comes into the chamber through the window and, because heat from colonization, a current carries air toward the back of your chamber to escape out the back pipes.
Is there a functional difference between the white pipe and the black pipe that rise out of the back?
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: BlueLightRain]
#19304555 - 12/20/13 07:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I was hoping the black pipe would heat up more and cause a downdraft in the white one. It didn't work out except on very hot sunny days. Both pipes are now dark green.
It's not just heat, but pressure. Air enters the window about 20' below the top of the stacks. It's more of a chimney effect of high pressure flowing to lower pressure above.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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BlueLightRain
WhoaUnbrokenChain
Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 354
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19305347 - 12/20/13 09:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wonderful.
Are you concerned with shiitake clippings landing in your gravel bed and molding?
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: BlueLightRain]
#19308249 - 12/21/13 02:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sometimes they do. Mold is a fact of life in grow rooms. You just have to keep it to an acceptable level so you can be profitable. We put a tray under the blocks when we're harvesting to catch the stuff that drops off, but whenever we spray it also makes a mess. The grow room doesn't need to be pretty.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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BlueLightRain
WhoaUnbrokenChain
Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 354
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19309306 - 12/21/13 07:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Gosh, RR, thank you for your responses. You're very helpful! 
Two things:
1.
So, I wonder if instead of using a clear plastic tarping for the fruiting chamber, a white plastic canopy would work better to keep the heat down, but would still provide enough filtered light to encourage fruiting.
2.
Also, if I had some vents toward the bottom that allowed lower, cooler air to enter, and had vents toward the upper back that allowed air to escape, would work to provide fresh air exchanges without necessarily extracting all the local humidity.
--BLR
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Amanita virosa
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: BlueLightRain]
#19311911 - 12/22/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Def use white greenhouse plastic plus 90% shade cloth if you live in a temperate climate and want to grow year round. We have a 16 by 20 foot hoop house we do bucket culture in. For humidity we simply put two tons of pea gravel $40 worth on the floor. As RR suggested spray it down with a foggit nozzle once or twice a day and the humidity stays at 95%.
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lighthouse09
Stranger thats mr. stranger
Registered: 03/16/13
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: Amanita virosa]
#19312662 - 12/22/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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very cool stuff here i have been thinking of starting a shitake farm as well. I wonder if i built it all out of wood and just painted it wellwith 2 coats (I am a painter) if i would still get mold or contam problems?
and not using bleach anymore with still no problems i may try that I've had bleach screw up my metal stuff also and have cut way back but i will try no mas bleach.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: lighthouse09]
#19313487 - 12/22/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You can make a whitewash out of hydrated lime and water to paint with if you're using wood. I prefer metal shelving for that reason. It rusts, but at least it looks pretty when new.
Mushrooms need light, but no where near the intensity of plants. Use whatever reflective material you have to keep the heat on the outside. Even if you don't completely bury the grow room, you can get a bulldozer to excavate a trench for it to be located in. The earth will absorb a lot of that excess heat for you.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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BlueLightRain
WhoaUnbrokenChain
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19329592 - 12/26/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Mushrooms need light, but no where near the intensity of plants. Use whatever reflective material you have to keep the heat on the outside. Even if you don't completely bury the grow room, you can get a bulldozer to excavate a trench for it to be located in. The earth will absorb a lot of that excess heat for you.
RR
Yeah, it might work to outfit it with LEDs, but if I use a shipping container, then I wonder if I can provide skylight ports with opaque glass that would allow enough light to filter through, even during gray, rainy/cloudy days. On super bright days I can draw a curtain over it.
If I wanted to provide consistent temperature like yours does, instead of burying it with earth, what if I surrounded it with adobe/cob?
--BLR
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lighthouse09
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: BlueLightRain]
#19332702 - 12/27/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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LED i wouldthink would help get the perfect amount of light all year round skylights maybe would cheapen it but led lights take almost no electricity anyway. I am no MR. rabbit but i think any form of insulation you use would help yes (LOL).
I am impressed i was unaware RR had built this and had such a farm. Any ideas how hard it is to sell 100 pounds of shitakes a week? i am seriously considering this and already have a place picked out ,but from someone who has done it insted of reading a book again how hard is it to find buyers?
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drake89
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: lighthouse09]
#19333339 - 12/27/13 03:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
lighthouse09 said:
LED i wouldthink would help get the perfect amount of light all year round skylights maybe would cheapen it but led lights take almost no electricity anyway. I am no MR. rabbit but i think any form of insulation you use would help yes (LOL).
I am impressed i was unaware RR had built this and had such a farm. Any ideas how hard it is to sell 100 pounds of shitakes a week? i am seriously considering this and already have a place picked out ,but from someone who has done it insted of reading a book again how hard is it to find buyers?
are there other growers in your area? are there any high end or 'local food' restaurants in your area? go ask them and find out.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: drake89]
#19334089 - 12/27/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You don't want insulation between a shipping container and the earth unless you're trying to keep heat in. If you want the earth itself to serve as a giant heat sink, have it buried directly. I put insulation above the ceiling of mine because the ground freezes 5 feet deep here. My colonization room is insulated all the way around to keep in the heat from colonizing substrates. The fruiting room is in direct contact to help maintain a temp in the mid 50F range.
I added fluorescent lamps in addition to the LED lights. The LED light ropes and PAR 30 floodlights just didn't have quite enough output for bringing the mushrooms to maximum harvest weight.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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BlueLightRain
WhoaUnbrokenChain
Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 354
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Different Designs for Greenhouse-Style Non-Electric Humidification [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19339730 - 12/29/13 12:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
You don't want insulation between a shipping container and the earth unless you're trying to keep heat in. If you want the earth itself to serve as a giant heat sink, have it buried directly. I put insulation above the ceiling of mine because the ground freezes 5 feet deep here. My colonization room is insulated all the way around to keep in the heat from colonizing substrates. The fruiting room is in direct contact to help maintain a temp in the mid 50F range.
So you don't think it's necessary to include insulation in bay area weather (which rarely reaches freezing and is usually around 45-65 F) if I'm covering a shipping container with three feet of earth on all sides if I'm growing oyster mushrooms?
-BLR
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