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Tombc1
Shroomerite



Registered: 09/06/12
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Ayahuasca Death?
#19293872 - 12/18/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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http://sebastopol.towns.pressdemocrat.com/2012/09/news/sebastopol-teen-died-in-peru-trying-to-further-open-his-mind/
What is this? It seems like the most disgustingly biased article i've ever seen but I was just wondering if anyone can shed some light on it
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: Tombc1]
#19293906 - 12/18/13 03:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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doesn't seem that biased to me honestly. The kid probably ignored the fasting instructions and took some medications or something that interacted badly with the MAOI's in the brew.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Icyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa



Registered: 11/07/13
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One needs to die before being reborn..
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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MagicalOrangutan
Curious Cat



Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 3,538
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: Icyus]
#19293977 - 12/18/13 04:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's biased and completely dishonest because they make it out like it was the dmt that killed him. It wasn't the dmt, it was the fucking maoi. Natural or not, maoi, as can be seem in this case, are clearly dangerous
-------------------- On the ground you lay, with your dogs you pray, at a neon hieroglyph sky you gaze Hugging your mind, praying to survive, feeling the love of the hieroglyphs in the sky We all need more love, and mainly less hate Hate is the blind that covers the heart's eye That makes the heart's eye cry Locked deep away in the skies of our minds It's all in the mind
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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maoi's themselves do not kill or harm anyone. They allow dangerous interactions to take place with other drugs, they take down a defensive enzyme system in your gut. And i think you are letting emotions cloud your judgement. Usually i'd agree that drug related articles are horribly biased. But I don't see that in this one, the only mention of DMT was stating the main active ingredient in Ayahuasca. The focus was more on the actions of the retreat employee's.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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JohnnyTripsAlot
Shroomer


Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 854
Loc: Canada
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I also don't think its really all that biased, you cant expect a news writer to defend drugs especially in an article about a young persons death
This article makes me sad, let us all never forget how important it is to be responsible with these substances
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HarryL
Squnä'am



Registered: 11/16/10
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Someone who dies while on a drug does not equate to died because of the drug... Poor logical argument but one used by the anti-drug establishment for years
Depends who is reporting it... Their bias or need to use it to further their agenda
On Aya, allergic to bees, stung and dies... Must be the drug On mushrooms and has their third heart attack and dies.. Must be the drug
Not saying that was the case... But who would know... History is written by the one with the most to gain....
Peace
-------------------- Mushroom hunting: One bad mushroom can ruin your day! Know it or throw it.
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: HarryL]
#19294067 - 12/18/13 04:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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the article didn't blame the drug for his death. It simply stated what drug he was on when he died and the events leading to his death.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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in fact the article even cites the father saying that the drug seems to be safe and that he didn't think his son was irresponsible about it.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Acidreamer
altered ego



Registered: 08/05/12
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Perhaps the shaman put toé (Datura) in it? That can be dangerous. Either way it's a REALLY sad and unfortunate story, both for the family involved and for the reputation of ayahuasca itself.
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rikuni

Registered: 04/06/10
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: Tombc1]
#19294250 - 12/18/13 05:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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...
Edited by rikuni (03/16/14 05:24 AM)
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openmind
curious


Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 13,866
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: rikuni]
#19294356 - 12/18/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Acidreamer said: Perhaps the shaman put toé (Datura) in it? That can be dangerous. Either way it's a REALLY sad and unfortunate story, both for the family involved and for the reputation of ayahuasca itself.
Quote:
rikuni said: This is old but it did come out after a while that this Manculuto was not that great of a shaman. He did lie about many things and he had nothing to do with the ancient traditions he was talking about. But the most severe mistake he made and probably the reason for the death of that kid was that he ADDED Toe as well as other plants to the brew to make it stronger!
I was going to say....I think I've heard a couple accounts of this happening over the past few years, toe being added to the brew and resulting in the death of a "westerner". Then it appearing as if, or once the stories reach the media, that it was the aya vine/dmt itself that's deadly.
-OM
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MagicalOrangutan
Curious Cat



Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 3,538
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: openmind]
#19294443 - 12/18/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Obviously yes it is biased because obviously when some ignorant parent reads this, what are they gonna say about dmt? Are they gonna think it's a good thing, or a dangerous thing that will kill their kids if they get ahold of it? I mean seriously, if most parents read this and then their kid said "I wanna try dmt" what is that parent gonna say? Clearly they will mistake concomitance with causation and say "this kid died and was on this dmt drug, my kid is in danger if they take any form of dmt". Obviously that's how most people think
-------------------- On the ground you lay, with your dogs you pray, at a neon hieroglyph sky you gaze Hugging your mind, praying to survive, feeling the love of the hieroglyphs in the sky We all need more love, and mainly less hate Hate is the blind that covers the heart's eye That makes the heart's eye cry Locked deep away in the skies of our minds It's all in the mind
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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thats the fault of the parents for lazy and illogical thinking. The article was simply stating facts. Besides if a parent is still making decisions for a kid (under 18) they probably shouldn't be doing such a powerful psychedelic in the first place.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Noven
Stranger


Registered: 11/20/13
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We were discussing this case at a ceremony I was attending this year. Someone at the ceremony actually had connection to the events from what I remember the kid had drug problems prior to his death and was bringing in his own substances, on one occasion he went of by himself and they had to go out and look for him, he had a lot of issues. Either way the shaman was responsible for trying to cover up the death.
I don't know how reliable the sources were but apparently they knew the actual shaman, so I'm just relating what I have heard so take it as hearsay.
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Tombc1
Shroomerite



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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: Noven]
#19297550 - 12/19/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Mhm, despite the fact that the article doesn't directly attribute his death to the drug itself, it certainly implies it.
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JacksonMetaller
Stranger

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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: openmind]
#19298099 - 12/19/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
openmind said:
Quote:
Acidreamer said: Perhaps the shaman put toé (Datura) in it? That can be dangerous. Either way it's a REALLY sad and unfortunate story, both for the family involved and for the reputation of ayahuasca itself.
Quote:
rikuni said: This is old but it did come out after a while that this Manculuto was not that great of a shaman. He did lie about many things and he had nothing to do with the ancient traditions he was talking about. But the most severe mistake he made and probably the reason for the death of that kid was that he ADDED Toe as well as other plants to the brew to make it stronger!
I was going to say....I think I've heard a couple accounts of this happening over the past few years, toe being added to the brew and resulting in the death of a "westerner". Then it appearing as if, or once the stories reach the media, that it was the aya vine/dmt itself that's deadly.
-OM
.
What exactly is Toe?
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muistrue
Inspired by the mystery


Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 12,899
Loc: Behind the Redwoods
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Quote:
JacksonMetaller said: What exactly is Toe?
Brugmansia suaveolens more commonly known as datura.
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s240779

Registered: 12/07/10
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: muistrue]
#19299012 - 12/19/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Dude, brugmansia is a different plant from datura. Both names are official titles. Brugmansia just contains the same group of tropane alkaloids that datura contains -- and there are even more plants that contain these alkaloids.
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TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.



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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: s240779]
#19299054 - 12/19/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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We're basically still talking about an interaction between the maoi and the scopalamine and other tropanes that killed the kid right?
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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s240779

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I don't think we were ever talking about that. Someone just suggested datura could be to blame, but as far as I'm concerned that's not likely as 1) I'm not aware of any contraindications of scopolamine, et. al. and other substances (including MAOIs); 2) no one else had issues with the brew, right? 3) it's not commonly added to ayahuasca, is it? 4) when it is added, I would assume the dose is in a low range as it's just an additive.
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rikuni

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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: s240779]
#19299165 - 12/19/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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...
Edited by rikuni (03/16/14 05:24 AM)
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: rikuni]
#19299435 - 12/19/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Tyramine builds up in your body over a long time. He might not have necessarily even disobeyed the maoi diet, but rather had a poor diet to begin with. Or maybe even a heart defect, aya is a racy beast.
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xoanon
Stranger

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Toe is a legitimate healing plant that can be added to ayahuasca brews. There are numerous accounts of mestizo shamen using it as an admixture. I do agree with rikuni, from what I've studied it's not something new apprentices will learn to use.
But back on topic, it could have been any number of interactions. Who's to say he didn't consume any contraindicated substances before his time at shimbre. It is a tragedy for the family. It is unfortunate to have the medicine incorrectly spun so negatively. We can only hope one day we live in a more enlightened society where our personal birthright of access to plants is embraced and personal choice not infringed upon nor punished.
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muistrue
Inspired by the mystery


Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 12,899
Loc: Behind the Redwoods
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Quote:
XLCaps said: Tyramine builds up in your body over a long time. He might not have necessarily even disobeyed the maoi diet, but rather had a poor diet to begin with. Or maybe even a heart defect, aya is a racy beast.
Poor diet or tyramine won't kill anybody after ingesting ayahuasca just make you extremely uncomfortable and headache for a few hours. He was most likely on a medication that reacted poorly with the RIMA's.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: muistrue]
#19303644 - 12/20/13 04:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
muistrue said:
Quote:
XLCaps said: Tyramine builds up in your body over a long time. He might not have necessarily even disobeyed the maoi diet, but rather had a poor diet to begin with. Or maybe even a heart defect, aya is a racy beast.
Poor diet or tyramine won't kill anybody after ingesting ayahuasca just make you extremely uncomfortable and headache for a few hours. He was most likely on a medication that reacted poorly with the RIMA's.
Are you saying that out of personal experience or what you know, because it's a pretty common result to find that tyramine and maois can cause a hypertensive crisis. --- "The eyes may show retinal hemorrhage or an exudate. Papilledema must be present before a diagnosis of malignant hypertension can be made. The brain shows manifestations of increased intracranial pressure, such as headache, vomiting, and/or subarachnoid or cerebral hemorrhage. Patients will usually suffer from left ventricular dysfunction. The kidneys will be affected, resulting in hematuria, proteinuria, and acute renal failure. It differs from other complications of hypertension in that it is accompanied by papilledema.[2] This can be associated with hypertensive retinopathy. Other signs and symptoms can include: Chest pain Arrhythmias Headache Epistaxis Dyspnea Faintness or vertigo Severe anxiety Agitation Altered mental status Paresthesias Vomiting"
If your build up is high enough it can cause a pretty immediate reaction.
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muistrue
Inspired by the mystery


Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 12,899
Loc: Behind the Redwoods
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Quote:
XLCaps said:
Quote:
muistrue said:
Quote:
XLCaps said: Tyramine builds up in your body over a long time. He might not have necessarily even disobeyed the maoi diet, but rather had a poor diet to begin with. Or maybe even a heart defect, aya is a racy beast.
Poor diet or tyramine won't kill anybody after ingesting ayahuasca just make you extremely uncomfortable and headache for a few hours. He was most likely on a medication that reacted poorly with the RIMA's.
Are you saying that out of personal experience or what you know, because it's a pretty common result to find that tyramine and maois can cause a hypertensive crisis. --- "The eyes may show retinal hemorrhage or an exudate. Papilledema must be present before a diagnosis of malignant hypertension can be made. The brain shows manifestations of increased intracranial pressure, such as headache, vomiting, and/or subarachnoid or cerebral hemorrhage. Patients will usually suffer from left ventricular dysfunction. The kidneys will be affected, resulting in hematuria, proteinuria, and acute renal failure. It differs from other complications of hypertension in that it is accompanied by papilledema.[2] This can be associated with hypertensive retinopathy. Other signs and symptoms can include: Chest pain Arrhythmias Headache Epistaxis Dyspnea Faintness or vertigo Severe anxiety Agitation Altered mental status Paresthesias Vomiting"
If your build up is high enough it can cause a pretty immediate reaction.
Ayahuasca doesn't contain MAOI's it contains RIMAs.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: muistrue]
#19303667 - 12/20/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Aren't harmine and harmaline maois?
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muistrue
Inspired by the mystery


Registered: 03/20/05
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Quote:
XLCaps said: Aren't harmine and harmaline maois?
No they're RIMAs.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



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Posts: 36,294
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: muistrue]
#19303682 - 12/20/13 04:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok looked it up. I guess ya learn something every day. It just begs the question why everyone seems to think it's something it's not, because I've seen in so many different places claiming they are maois.
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LadyLarvae
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Thanks XLCaps for relying on actual medical information when you mentioned the possibility of death from MAOIs alone. Overdose on MAOIs alone can kill people, as can combining MAOIs with the wrong foods OR medications. As you have noticed, different sources say different things about these substances. Some call them RIMAs, & some call them MAOIs. Why do you trust the ones more which call these RIMAs than the ones that call them MAOIs? Even Erowid calls these substances MAOIs, and they are generally pro-drug. They tend to be pretty balanced from my experience with them, so I feel like they probably are not labeling these alkaloids as such without reliable resources. Even if these are RIMAs, according to a research stub from The National Center for Biotechnology Information on PubMed, even RIMAs can cause deadly serotonin syndrome. They are simply less likely to do so than MAOIs.
Personally, I find it difficult to believe that harmala alkaloids are not MAOIs. Having taken them, I was messed up for awhile afterwards. I'm talking days or weeks, not hours. I was not only emotionally and psychologically messed up, but physically messed up. I can blame a bad trip for the emotional and psychological issues, but not for the physical issues. Obviously, something in the substance I ingested had either A. Not been fully metabolized & worked out of my system or B. Had caused somewhat lasting changes in my system as MAOIs do. MAOIs can cause changes for a couple of weeks from what I am told. Although the term irreversible is in the name both my therapist & some online sources said that it will reverse eventually, but you have to wait for your body to make new enzymes & for the old to die because the old ones are permanently altered. The symptoms I experienced seemed to worsen when I ate, so I am thinking that if it wasn't an extreme placebo effect- which I'm not prone to- then my diet was likely making it worse. This also happens with MAOIS.
Edited by LadyLarvae (03/21/14 01:08 AM)
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rhave
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: s240779]
#19726709 - 03/21/14 01:23 AM (9 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Da2ra said: Dude, brugmansia is a different plant from datura. Both names are official titles. Brugmansia just contains the same group of tropane alkaloids that datura contains -- and there are even more plants that contain these alkaloids.
neither is a specific plant, they are both genera, all brugmansia used to be in the datura genus, it's valid to say the common name for brugmansias is datura although that name isn't taxonically correct. For this purpose specifically there are probably daturas and brugmansia with more similar alkaloid profiles to each other than to others in their genus.
RIMAs inhibit monoamine oxidase, it seems that would make them a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, merely a subclass. I'm pretty sure the change in acronym is just so pharmaceutical companies can more easily market newer MAOIs that are reversible and selective for MAO-A.
Edited by rhave (03/21/14 01:42 AM)
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DirtyTomFlint
( ಥـْـِـِـِـْಥ)




Registered: 11/26/13
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: rhave]
#19726792 - 03/21/14 02:04 AM (9 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
muistrue said:
Quote:
XLCaps said: Aren't harmine and harmaline maois?
No they're RIMAs.
Quote:
rhave said: RIMAs inhibit monoamine oxidase, it seems that would make them a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, merely a subclass. I'm pretty sure the change in acronym is just so pharmaceutical companies can more easily market newer MAOIs that are reversible and selective for MAO-A.
Furthermore, isn't B Caapi an MAOI? It's commonly used in Ayahuasca, meaning Ayahuasca would contain MAOIs.
--------------------
   Know Your Body, Know Your Mind, Know Your Substance, Know Your Source
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LadyLarvae
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: rhave]
#19726843 - 03/21/14 02:24 AM (9 years, 10 months ago) |
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Oops. My mistake. Thanks for the correction. I was thinking MAOI stood specifically for the irreversible variety. In light of this, I do not know if Erowid considers them to be reversible or irreversible. I have specifically seen the word "irreversible" used in regards to harmala alkaloids on some sites, but perhaps that is inaccurate. I have also seen them called RIMAs, which are reversible MAOIs. Either way, I feel it is important for people to know that even RIMAs are potentially deadly. Some people on this thread state otherwise, but medical and scientific studies disagree with them. I think everyone considering using these substances- & their trip sitters- should be aware of the reality of the risks.
Edited by LadyLarvae (03/21/14 02:25 AM)
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thoraxx
Wizard


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Caapi and rue contain the same RIMA alkaloids, harmalas
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s240779

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Log in to view attachment
Callaway, J.C., and C.S. Grob. 1998. Ayahuasca preparations and serotonin re-uptake inhibitors: A potential combination for severe adverse interactions. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs, 30:367-69.
DOWNLOAD
Quote:
LadyLarvae said: I was thinking MAOI stood specifically for the irreversible variety. In light of this, I do not know if Erowid considers them to be reversible or irreversible. I have specifically seen the word "irreversible" used in regards to harmala alkaloids on some sites, but perhaps that is inaccurate. I have also seen them called RIMAs, which are reversible MAOIs.
Here's the source that says harmalas are reversible. Obtained on http://libgen.org.
N.S. Buckholtz, W.O. Boggan, Monoamine oxidase inhibition in brain and liver produced by beta-carbolines: structure–activity relationships and substrate specificity, Biochem. Pharmacol. 26 (1977) 1991–1996.
DOWNLOAD
Quote:
rhave said: RIMAs inhibit monoamine oxidase, it seems that would make them a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, merely a subclass. I'm pretty sure the change in acronym is just so pharmaceutical companies can more easily market newer MAOIs that are reversible and selective for MAO-A.
Exactly. Screw this retarded comment ->
Quote:
muistrue said:
Quote:
XLCaps said: Aren't harmine and harmaline maois?
No they're RIMAs.
Edited by s240779 (04/01/14 06:33 AM)
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s240779

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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: s240779]
#19777156 - 04/01/14 06:34 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Edited download for second article into above post.
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