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s240779

Registered: 12/07/10
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Last seen: 2 months, 9 days
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I don't think we were ever talking about that. Someone just suggested datura could be to blame, but as far as I'm concerned that's not likely as 1) I'm not aware of any contraindications of scopolamine, et. al. and other substances (including MAOIs); 2) no one else had issues with the brew, right? 3) it's not commonly added to ayahuasca, is it? 4) when it is added, I would assume the dose is in a low range as it's just an additive.
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rikuni

Registered: 04/06/10
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: s240779]
#19299165 - 12/19/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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...
Edited by rikuni (03/16/14 05:24 AM)
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: rikuni]
#19299435 - 12/19/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Tyramine builds up in your body over a long time. He might not have necessarily even disobeyed the maoi diet, but rather had a poor diet to begin with. Or maybe even a heart defect, aya is a racy beast.
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xoanon
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Registered: 05/01/11
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Toe is a legitimate healing plant that can be added to ayahuasca brews. There are numerous accounts of mestizo shamen using it as an admixture. I do agree with rikuni, from what I've studied it's not something new apprentices will learn to use.
But back on topic, it could have been any number of interactions. Who's to say he didn't consume any contraindicated substances before his time at shimbre. It is a tragedy for the family. It is unfortunate to have the medicine incorrectly spun so negatively. We can only hope one day we live in a more enlightened society where our personal birthright of access to plants is embraced and personal choice not infringed upon nor punished.
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muistrue
Inspired by the mystery


Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 12,899
Loc: Behind the Redwoods
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Quote:
XLCaps said: Tyramine builds up in your body over a long time. He might not have necessarily even disobeyed the maoi diet, but rather had a poor diet to begin with. Or maybe even a heart defect, aya is a racy beast.
Poor diet or tyramine won't kill anybody after ingesting ayahuasca just make you extremely uncomfortable and headache for a few hours. He was most likely on a medication that reacted poorly with the RIMA's.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: muistrue]
#19303644 - 12/20/13 04:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
muistrue said:
Quote:
XLCaps said: Tyramine builds up in your body over a long time. He might not have necessarily even disobeyed the maoi diet, but rather had a poor diet to begin with. Or maybe even a heart defect, aya is a racy beast.
Poor diet or tyramine won't kill anybody after ingesting ayahuasca just make you extremely uncomfortable and headache for a few hours. He was most likely on a medication that reacted poorly with the RIMA's.
Are you saying that out of personal experience or what you know, because it's a pretty common result to find that tyramine and maois can cause a hypertensive crisis. --- "The eyes may show retinal hemorrhage or an exudate. Papilledema must be present before a diagnosis of malignant hypertension can be made. The brain shows manifestations of increased intracranial pressure, such as headache, vomiting, and/or subarachnoid or cerebral hemorrhage. Patients will usually suffer from left ventricular dysfunction. The kidneys will be affected, resulting in hematuria, proteinuria, and acute renal failure. It differs from other complications of hypertension in that it is accompanied by papilledema.[2] This can be associated with hypertensive retinopathy. Other signs and symptoms can include: Chest pain Arrhythmias Headache Epistaxis Dyspnea Faintness or vertigo Severe anxiety Agitation Altered mental status Paresthesias Vomiting"
If your build up is high enough it can cause a pretty immediate reaction.
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muistrue
Inspired by the mystery


Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 12,899
Loc: Behind the Redwoods
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Quote:
XLCaps said:
Quote:
muistrue said:
Quote:
XLCaps said: Tyramine builds up in your body over a long time. He might not have necessarily even disobeyed the maoi diet, but rather had a poor diet to begin with. Or maybe even a heart defect, aya is a racy beast.
Poor diet or tyramine won't kill anybody after ingesting ayahuasca just make you extremely uncomfortable and headache for a few hours. He was most likely on a medication that reacted poorly with the RIMA's.
Are you saying that out of personal experience or what you know, because it's a pretty common result to find that tyramine and maois can cause a hypertensive crisis. --- "The eyes may show retinal hemorrhage or an exudate. Papilledema must be present before a diagnosis of malignant hypertension can be made. The brain shows manifestations of increased intracranial pressure, such as headache, vomiting, and/or subarachnoid or cerebral hemorrhage. Patients will usually suffer from left ventricular dysfunction. The kidneys will be affected, resulting in hematuria, proteinuria, and acute renal failure. It differs from other complications of hypertension in that it is accompanied by papilledema.[2] This can be associated with hypertensive retinopathy. Other signs and symptoms can include: Chest pain Arrhythmias Headache Epistaxis Dyspnea Faintness or vertigo Severe anxiety Agitation Altered mental status Paresthesias Vomiting"
If your build up is high enough it can cause a pretty immediate reaction.
Ayahuasca doesn't contain MAOI's it contains RIMAs.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: muistrue]
#19303667 - 12/20/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Aren't harmine and harmaline maois?
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muistrue
Inspired by the mystery


Registered: 03/20/05
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Loc: Behind the Redwoods
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Quote:
XLCaps said: Aren't harmine and harmaline maois?
No they're RIMAs.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: muistrue]
#19303682 - 12/20/13 04:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok looked it up. I guess ya learn something every day. It just begs the question why everyone seems to think it's something it's not, because I've seen in so many different places claiming they are maois.
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LadyLarvae
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Registered: 03/21/14
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Thanks XLCaps for relying on actual medical information when you mentioned the possibility of death from MAOIs alone. Overdose on MAOIs alone can kill people, as can combining MAOIs with the wrong foods OR medications. As you have noticed, different sources say different things about these substances. Some call them RIMAs, & some call them MAOIs. Why do you trust the ones more which call these RIMAs than the ones that call them MAOIs? Even Erowid calls these substances MAOIs, and they are generally pro-drug. They tend to be pretty balanced from my experience with them, so I feel like they probably are not labeling these alkaloids as such without reliable resources. Even if these are RIMAs, according to a research stub from The National Center for Biotechnology Information on PubMed, even RIMAs can cause deadly serotonin syndrome. They are simply less likely to do so than MAOIs.
Personally, I find it difficult to believe that harmala alkaloids are not MAOIs. Having taken them, I was messed up for awhile afterwards. I'm talking days or weeks, not hours. I was not only emotionally and psychologically messed up, but physically messed up. I can blame a bad trip for the emotional and psychological issues, but not for the physical issues. Obviously, something in the substance I ingested had either A. Not been fully metabolized & worked out of my system or B. Had caused somewhat lasting changes in my system as MAOIs do. MAOIs can cause changes for a couple of weeks from what I am told. Although the term irreversible is in the name both my therapist & some online sources said that it will reverse eventually, but you have to wait for your body to make new enzymes & for the old to die because the old ones are permanently altered. The symptoms I experienced seemed to worsen when I ate, so I am thinking that if it wasn't an extreme placebo effect- which I'm not prone to- then my diet was likely making it worse. This also happens with MAOIS.
Edited by LadyLarvae (03/21/14 01:08 AM)
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rhave
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: s240779]
#19726709 - 03/21/14 01:23 AM (9 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Da2ra said: Dude, brugmansia is a different plant from datura. Both names are official titles. Brugmansia just contains the same group of tropane alkaloids that datura contains -- and there are even more plants that contain these alkaloids.
neither is a specific plant, they are both genera, all brugmansia used to be in the datura genus, it's valid to say the common name for brugmansias is datura although that name isn't taxonically correct. For this purpose specifically there are probably daturas and brugmansia with more similar alkaloid profiles to each other than to others in their genus.
RIMAs inhibit monoamine oxidase, it seems that would make them a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, merely a subclass. I'm pretty sure the change in acronym is just so pharmaceutical companies can more easily market newer MAOIs that are reversible and selective for MAO-A.
Edited by rhave (03/21/14 01:42 AM)
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DirtyTomFlint
( ಥـْـِـِـِـْಥ)




Registered: 11/26/13
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Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: rhave]
#19726792 - 03/21/14 02:04 AM (9 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
muistrue said:
Quote:
XLCaps said: Aren't harmine and harmaline maois?
No they're RIMAs.
Quote:
rhave said: RIMAs inhibit monoamine oxidase, it seems that would make them a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, merely a subclass. I'm pretty sure the change in acronym is just so pharmaceutical companies can more easily market newer MAOIs that are reversible and selective for MAO-A.
Furthermore, isn't B Caapi an MAOI? It's commonly used in Ayahuasca, meaning Ayahuasca would contain MAOIs.
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   Know Your Body, Know Your Mind, Know Your Substance, Know Your Source
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LadyLarvae
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Registered: 03/21/14
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: rhave]
#19726843 - 03/21/14 02:24 AM (9 years, 10 months ago) |
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Oops. My mistake. Thanks for the correction. I was thinking MAOI stood specifically for the irreversible variety. In light of this, I do not know if Erowid considers them to be reversible or irreversible. I have specifically seen the word "irreversible" used in regards to harmala alkaloids on some sites, but perhaps that is inaccurate. I have also seen them called RIMAs, which are reversible MAOIs. Either way, I feel it is important for people to know that even RIMAs are potentially deadly. Some people on this thread state otherwise, but medical and scientific studies disagree with them. I think everyone considering using these substances- & their trip sitters- should be aware of the reality of the risks.
Edited by LadyLarvae (03/21/14 02:25 AM)
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thoraxx
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Caapi and rue contain the same RIMA alkaloids, harmalas
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s240779

Registered: 12/07/10
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Last seen: 2 months, 9 days
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Log in to view attachment
Callaway, J.C., and C.S. Grob. 1998. Ayahuasca preparations and serotonin re-uptake inhibitors: A potential combination for severe adverse interactions. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs, 30:367-69.
DOWNLOAD
Quote:
LadyLarvae said: I was thinking MAOI stood specifically for the irreversible variety. In light of this, I do not know if Erowid considers them to be reversible or irreversible. I have specifically seen the word "irreversible" used in regards to harmala alkaloids on some sites, but perhaps that is inaccurate. I have also seen them called RIMAs, which are reversible MAOIs.
Here's the source that says harmalas are reversible. Obtained on http://libgen.org.
N.S. Buckholtz, W.O. Boggan, Monoamine oxidase inhibition in brain and liver produced by beta-carbolines: structure–activity relationships and substrate specificity, Biochem. Pharmacol. 26 (1977) 1991–1996.
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Quote:
rhave said: RIMAs inhibit monoamine oxidase, it seems that would make them a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, merely a subclass. I'm pretty sure the change in acronym is just so pharmaceutical companies can more easily market newer MAOIs that are reversible and selective for MAO-A.
Exactly. Screw this retarded comment ->
Quote:
muistrue said:
Quote:
XLCaps said: Aren't harmine and harmaline maois?
No they're RIMAs.
Edited by s240779 (04/01/14 06:33 AM)
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s240779

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 12,880
Last seen: 2 months, 9 days
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Re: Ayahuasca Death? [Re: s240779]
#19777156 - 04/01/14 06:34 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Edited download for second article into above post.
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