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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,346
Loc: Texas
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
#19285655 - 12/16/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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modern.shaman said:
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ferrel_human said: now the hexalogues says that limestone is not needed. Or that if its used, it should be done so in small amounts. I used it 75% of that pot.
The reason that lots of limestone is not recommended is because it will make the pH very high and likely cause nutrient lockout. This might not be a bad thing as you want slower growth and the natural soil is high in limestone... cacti that don't have limestone adaptations and it's present in the soil WILL suffer and possibly die (Mammillaria plumosa seems like its the only exception and can have 100% limestone). Gypsum seems to be safer in then limestone.
Maybe do some more research into how much limestone is found in lopho native soil. Another thing you MAY have over looked is that the older the cactus the less adaptive it is to new conditions and it will be use to its previous environment. You should start all your new seeds completely mineral and keep it that way as you may lose some cacti you repot from other mixes (doubt you'll lose more then a few).
EDIT: They seem to grow in pure limestone so I doubt you'll have a problem with the high content in your mix... I hope I'll be able to see your collection a few years in the future. 
Dacite, granite, sandstone, some limestone and little clay seem like a great mix based on that article. Careful with how much limestone you use. I was just planning on skimming the article ended up reading most of it lol.
Its not a lot but but almost 5 equal parts of each. the small batch I did I used less limestone than all.
rememeber that this is considering that you will water with distilled or demineralized water, which the ph of this is on the acidic side.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,346
Loc: Texas
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
#19285705 - 12/16/13 07:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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modern.shaman said: Ferrel I always loved how natural your lophos look and I try to make my lophos more like yours. I use 100% OilDri as the soil with nothing else; an oil absorbent so it helps the soil dry out within a few days. I mainly do this due to high humidity and rain in my area. However I'm not sure if it causes any damage to the roots due to it being very absorbent it might be drying out the roots but for the time being it doesn't seem to be causing any harm. I will try upgrading my soil to a mineral mix similar to what you have however small amounts of these material seem difficult; only find bulk.
I understand your lophos are very 'flat' due to very little watering however do you ever bury your lophos below the flesh?
The images I see of habitat lophos that are extremely old have lots of areolas underneath the soil line; yours appears to exhibit the same thing. The lopho naturally buries itself once its cold and also very dry causing the skin under the soil to 'die' and became seamless with the roots. I have done this purposefully to make my lopho flatter in appearance and it makes the appearance very nice above the soil-line. I now water much less, only 4 times times during the growing season, and keep it in high sunlight/part shade to keep the growth compact. I will do this with most of my degrafts that are not already extremely bloated to try and make it more 'natural' looking. I don't think this will cause rot due to the soil not holding moisture for more then 2-3 days and being quite porous. After having the more natural looking lopho I water very little and keep in high sunlight to keep the growth low and compact.
Any opinions on burying lophos below the flesh to short-cutting a flatter lopho? I am growing a few lophos slowly from seed but most of my seedlings died do to my lack of experience, mainly too much sun. Can't wait till I get more seeds from my own cacti.
Never above, I believe you mean. A s you can see in my sig, the loph there is actually buried above. I don't know if that was me or the soil was not pressed down enough but it grows in spite of that. I currently have almost 200 loph seedlings and a number of Astros too. Its not just about the Lophophora genus its about all cacti in general.
my older ones I am afraid to transplant any sooner than January as dormancy is in winter. Winter is close but not yet so I think my old arios will be okay.
Now this is not thrown about to the people on here without any questions, what about our beloved columnars? this is great for Mexican cacti but what about trichs, cereus, stetsonia, stenocereus, blue myrtle, etc. what kind of soil would they benefit from. All mineral? Mineral and organic? Just organic?
Somebody let me know. This is all good and well for Mexican globulars and some south American species but what about the rest. I would like to see the perspective of some of the smarter people on here.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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SuperD
Cacti junky


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 6,648
Loc: The bridgesii bridge
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
#19285768 - 12/16/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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If we look at habitat photos of some of the other species you mentioned, it might give a good clue as to whether this cultivation method would be optimal for giving them a natural look. I wouldn't be surprised if some species fared better than others on nothing but rock, but that's a question that hasn't been answered yet I think.
I've got so many young loph seedlings I am very excited to give this a try. It will be much more interesting to me personally to start them off this way instead of transplanting adult buttons that have already been growing on different media for years.
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   D Manoa said: I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), me if you have any for trade
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verbage
White Squall


Registered: 11/02/13
Posts: 201
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
#19285789 - 12/16/13 08:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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On the subject of trich soil, I personally use something very nutrient rich. My soil comes out feeling silky and falls apart through your fingers.
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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,346
Loc: Texas
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: verbage]
#19285842 - 12/16/13 08:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SuperD said: If we look at habitat photos of some of the other species you mentioned, it might give a good clue as to whether this cultivation method would be optimal for giving them a natural look. I wouldn't be surprised if some species fared better than others on nothing but rock, but that's a question that hasn't been answered yet I think.
I've got so many young loph seedlings I am very excited to give this a try. It will be much more interesting to me personally to start them off this way instead of transplanting adult buttons that have already been growing on different media for years. 
Maybe adults in dormancy. Maybe. Not too sure yet but as a rule of thumb every transplant should be done in dormancy. A warning I should have heeded years ago but its a learning process.
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verbage said: On the subject of trich soil, I personally use something very nutrient rich. My soil comes out feeling silky and falls apart through your fingers.
Thats kinda what I was thinking.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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Corporal Kielbasa


Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human] 1
#19286017 - 12/16/13 09:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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SuperD
Cacti junky


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 6,648
Loc: The bridgesii bridge
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--------------------
   D Manoa said: I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), me if you have any for trade
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LSoares
Farmer



Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 3,209
Loc: Portugal
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: SuperD]
#19286877 - 12/17/13 01:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I wish I had three thumbs, ferrel.
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Corporal Kielbasa


Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
#19287388 - 12/17/13 06:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I remember reading about cryptobiotic soil and thought cacti must have some sort of association with the fungi, bacteria, and lichens. Then I was reading about horsetails and how they had an association with something that broke down silica with acids and made it possible for the plant to uptake it. Been forever since I was researching it. Thanks for putting this up and getting my interest. So lets bottle up some endophytic bacteria?
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KBG1977
Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 11,017
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Dang ferrel,you got me really interested in this now,it's so fascianting!



Now where can I get me a one ton boulder,and some more Opuntia!
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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,229
Loc: Zone 13
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
#19287468 - 12/17/13 07:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ferrel_human said: Now this is not thrown about to the people on here without any questions, what about our beloved columnars? this is great for Mexican cacti but what about trichs, cereus, stetsonia, stenocereus, blue myrtle, etc. what kind of soil would they benefit from. All mineral? Mineral and organic? Just organic?
Somebody let me know. This is all good and well for Mexican globulars and some south American species but what about the rest. I would like to see the perspective of some of the smarter people on here.
From what I've read the soil makeup for the cacti in Peru is mainly shallow soils on hillsides with a low organic content. But we don't want to mimic the soil with the columnars if we most want maximum growth. Although mineral and organic sounds like a nice if you want to go that route.
Thanks for the responses karode and ferrel.
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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,346
Loc: Texas
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
#19287644 - 12/17/13 08:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
modern.shaman said:
Quote:
ferrel_human said: Now this is not thrown about to the people on here without any questions, what about our beloved columnars? this is great for Mexican cacti but what about trichs, cereus, stetsonia, stenocereus, blue myrtle, etc. what kind of soil would they benefit from. All mineral? Mineral and organic? Just organic?
Somebody let me know. This is all good and well for Mexican globulars and some south American species but what about the rest. I would like to see the perspective of some of the smarter people on here.
From what I've read the soil makeup for the cacti in Peru is mainly shallow soils on hillsides with a low organic content. But we don't want to mimic the soil with the columnars if we most want maximum growth. Although mineral and organic sounds like a nice if you want to go that route.
Thanks for the responses karode and ferrel.
Thats awesome and so very true. I think my columnar ill grow like I have been. All the rest will get some sour of rock spa treatment.
I remember a year ago I was on this location near Latinos texas. At the edge of my rig location was boulders. I'm thinking limestone. So I asked the company representative if I could have some. He gave me the okay and I brought a bunch.
I'm thinking of later germinating seeds atop them. They would look so awesome like the pics from big posted.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,346
Loc: Texas
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
#19288777 - 12/17/13 02:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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how could I go about growing on these?
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,229
Loc: Zone 13
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human] 1
#19288940 - 12/17/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I would assume you just put the roots into the cracks of the slab and with time it will eat the stone. I'd assume you can just drill or chip away some rock so that there is enough space... I would only worry a bit about pooling water.
The article has shows some cacti growing directly in cracks in calcareous tufa. Its quite an amazing display for stone eating cacti.
From article regarding calcareous tufa on page 22
Quote:
on large pieces of this kind of rock –turned into micro-biotopes–by watering with soft and acid pH water, can be obtained very spectacular arrangements of calcicole plants sown and grown directly into the cracks and gaps of the rock. Such rocks do not react in the same way as the chips added to a mixture in a pot.
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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,346
Loc: Texas
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
#19289139 - 12/17/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Its an awesome sight to behold but pooling water outdoors would be a problem as that is where I would grow them. I really would want something like that with time. It looks so
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,346
Loc: Texas
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
#19289203 - 12/17/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I hadnt noticed but my good buddy mostly harmless edited my work and did a fantastic job. I want everyone to know that I dont suck up to the mods. I never do but most of the mods on here have been my friends for like 5 years. So before people start saying what a suck up I am I am not. But karode and mostly harmless have been here since my inception and thus, very good buddies of mine. Dont even worry but they still get after me here and there.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,229
Loc: Zone 13
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
#19289268 - 12/17/13 03:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure that limestone allows water to pass thru and in the hot texas sun/temperature pooling water may not be an issue. At a house I'm working at they will need to remove their entire bathroom floor because the limestone is molding due to water underneath seeping thru and soil staying wet under the house.
Pooling water wasn't mentioned in the article I'm just assuming that there would be some water that would pool in the cracks. If the roots are tightly packed into a crack there wouldn't be much if any room for water to pool and the water that is there would be absorbed by the cactus with little trouble.
I'm not sure how porous the stone is so you might have a better idea. Maybe try it out with a few cacti or do a test run and see how long, if any, water pools for by checking with a finger or some other test for liquid. You could also drill some holes underneath so that the water drains. just some ideas but I honestly have no idea.
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Big L
In tall buildings



Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 3,532
Loc: Luxury
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
#19289536 - 12/17/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nice thread ferrel.
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KBG1977
Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 11,017
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
#19290301 - 12/17/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
modern.shaman said: I would assume you just put the roots into the cracks of the slab and with time it will eat the stone. I'd assume you can just drill or chip away some rock so that there is enough space... I would only worry a bit about pooling water.
The article has shows some cacti growing directly in cracks in calcareous tufa. Its quite an amazing display for stone eating cacti.
From article regarding calcareous tufa on page 22
Quote:
on large pieces of this kind of rock –turned into micro-biotopes–by watering with soft and acid pH water, can be obtained very spectacular arrangements of calcicole plants sown and grown directly into the cracks and gaps of the rock. Such rocks do not react in the same way as the chips added to a mixture in a pot.

If I had this,I could die a happy man!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,346
Loc: Texas
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: Big L]
#19290495 - 12/17/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Big L said: Nice thread ferrel.
Thanks man. This has been a project in the making for months now. I am glad to bring it to the E.G.
Now I believe I will do some strombocactus and aztekium both ritterii and hintonii as they seem like a fitting choice. Well maybe because they seem to be thriving the most.
Next season will be spectacular.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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