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OfflineAtrium
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TeenChallenge (They came to my church today)
    #19279132 - 12/15/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I noticed a few different things when these guys came up and spoke at the pulpit today. For those of you that don't know, they are an organization of rehab centers so to speak, that teach abstinence of drugs while showing them the bible and God.

Please don't step on that ideal. What I want to discuss is a few interesting things I noticed.

One most prevalent, was that these men all claimed to be addicted, from a very young age, to "Dope" in any form. Ranging from Alcohol (though mostly a Gaba agonist) to heroin and some claimed meth. Some said "Whatever came my way" to which I wonder how true that is.

We on this site, usually have our spirituality either created or magnified and defined by Psychs which, by and large, are Serotonin agonists.

While we as responsible serotonin drug users (lets say if you trip less than 2 times a month just for a definite answer) seem to find the source or any other being of your choice, these dopamine abusers seem to find demons or spirits which lead them to feeling guilty, and thus lend their life over to God.

That seems to be a recurring theme among pastors and such. When they say they've done all sorts of drugs, they mostly mean that they've fucked around with Coke, Heroin, Meth, and similar drugs. They, if they even know what the hell they are, never mention Mescaline, DMT, Ibogaine etc.

Can we discuss why that is?


--------------------
The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it.

The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry. :tongue2:


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
    #19279326 - 12/15/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Religious leaders of good will who have had profound religious / spiritual / mystical experiences on drugs such as LSD could not possibly, in good faith, preach abstinence from those kinds of (physically non-addictive) drugs.  If they have had those types of experiences and do preach abstinence from the physically non-addictive stuff, they're either very fucked up and / or tools of the religion businesses that employ them.  I'm guessing that most pastors have not had such experiences and have no personal reference points on the subject.

The physically-addictive stuff is another story all together.

Caring people (in or out of church) don't want to see others get physically addicted to chemicals.  Common Sense / Common Compassion  101.  I applaud any and all efforts to help people escape from their physical addictions.

Of course, anything, including soda pop, can become a psychological addiction.  Such issues need to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

All in my opinion.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
    #19279384 - 12/15/13 01:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jamesdnh said:
That seems to be a recurring theme among pastors and such. When they say they've done all sorts of drugs, they mostly mean that they've fucked around with Coke, Heroin, Meth, and similar drugs. They, if they even know what the hell they are, never mention Mescaline, DMT, Ibogaine etc.

Can we discuss why that is?




Because psychedelics/entheogens/serotonergic drugs tend to not be as addictive or as life-destroying as hard drugs like heroin or methamphetamine?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: deCypher]
    #19279423 - 12/15/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Because psychedelics/entheogens/serotonergic drugs tend to not be as addictive or as life-destroying as hard drugs like heroin or methamphetamine?



You and I know that... but are you implying that the pastors know that and intentionally exclude drugs like LSD from their condemnations?

If yes, I think that's assuming way way too much insight on the part of most religious clergy.

I suspect they only address the "addictive / life-destroying" stuff because that's all they see and are aware of in their communities.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
    #19279544 - 12/15/13 02:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Nope, not implying anything of the sort.  I agree with the rest of your post, however... although there may still be some pastors who have experienced spiritual gnosis and/or samadhi in their youth from psychedelics and still managed to incorporate it into their religious belief systems for the eventual benefit of their congregation.  :thumbup:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineBahaudeen
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
    #19279665 - 12/15/13 02:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Who take ibogaine for entheogenic use anyway?


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Offlineeve69
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
    #19279669 - 12/15/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jamesdnh said:


That seems to be a recurring theme among pastors and such. When they say they've done all sorts of drugs, they mostly mean that they've fucked around with Coke, Heroin, Meth, and similar drugs. They, if they even know what the hell they are, never mention Mescaline, DMT, Ibogaine etc.

Can we discuss why that is?




What we can discuss is what their real motivation is.  They want to come around and act like they have figured stuff out. But what oftener than not is the case is these people have found community and friendship and purpose. That isn't the same as figuring things out.

Store bought spirituality picked up from some 12 step programming.  If it keeps you alive and makes you feel wonderful then by all means take the easy path and fall in.

The spiritual path is lonely, disciplined, and inexplicable. It doesn't fit a mold (unless you're a plastic people).  It can't be taught. And rehab isn't the same thing. Nor is a method for abstinence the whole picture.  The Goddess is bigger than all abstainers. Or she wouldn't have provided drugs.


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...or something







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OfflineAtrium
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: eve69]
    #19279899 - 12/15/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What I was mostly asking though, was that when you hear of testimonies of people being lost in drugs, it is always weed/alcohol first and they either get stuck there, or straight up drown in heroin or coke or meth and never, whether intentionally or not, ever mention any entheogen.

I mostly wanted to know whether, if they had ever tried something of entheogenic value, that they would "turn from their evil ways". That's what I want to get across. I know for a 100% fact, if I showed my fellow churchgoers, whether the few my age (one whom I live with) or a guitar playing singing 21 year old dude my DMT, I would be ostracized or excommunicated and told to change.

I know this.

But in 19 years of being in church, I have almost never heard of any "lost spirits" come back claiming they were lost after taking any entheogen in a responsible, spiritual manner (meaning non hedonistic ways).

(I said I live with another church going girl who's my same age and this is the account of her father from what I understand) This man I live with is approximately 60 years old and has many different stories of drugs in his youth. Ranging from alcoholism to coke to mesc to L, anything popular between the 60's and 80's I believe he tried. The thing is, he admits to having been an alcoholic and it destroyed his life. That, to me, indicates no self-control when it comes to any sort of drug usage and he is forced to abstain. So to put it this way, his entheogenic usage was more to get high than to see the truth or the light.

That's fine and dandy, but I have never run across another "responsible" user in the church in my 19 years of being involved in it. Every church has the ex pill popper, alcoholic, meth head, heroin user etc. but never seem to have the guy who dropped a few times in his life for enlightenment. At least non admit to it.

And so, my true question proposed is whether these people (us) are either in the right track, or has no negative influences into spirituality, or we are so wrong that, according to the bible in terms of this, we are left in our wicked ways? To any fellow bible readers out there, let me propose that Pharmakiea or drug usage, is akin and actually translated as witchcraft. Attempting to contact dead spirits (Ayahuasca) is witchcraft. Would my Judeo-Christian God turn his back on me due to witchcraft?


--------------------
The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it.

The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry. :tongue2:


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
    #19280031 - 12/15/13 04:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jamesdnh said:
And so, my true question proposed is whether these people (us) are either in the right track, or has no negative influences into spirituality, or we are so wrong that, according to the bible in terms of this, we are left in our wicked ways? To any fellow bible readers out there, let me propose that Pharmakiea or drug usage, is akin and actually translated as witchcraft. Attempting to contact dead spirits (Ayahuasca) is witchcraft. Would my Judeo-Christian God turn his back on me due to witchcraft?



That you are posting in this particular forum -- and not on a website dedicated solely to discussing the size of Lady Gaga's tits -- suggests to me that you are on the right track.

Or, if not the "right track," at least a track not ventured upon by the mass of humanity.

Consider yourself blessed.

Your Judeo/Christian God wants you to know him better and more acutely.  If your drug use facilitates that, he's very pleased and wants you to continue doing what you're doing.

Trust me on this.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
    #19280061 - 12/15/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jamesdnh said:
seem to have the guy who dropped a few times in his life for enlightenment. At least non admit to it.




I understand where you're going. Those who tripped a few times but who didn't fall into addictive drugs probably have no interest in being the exception to the rule for the sake of those who do have problems.  Before coming out about any drug use the responsible person will consider what effect their words will have.

Don't be surprised if the people around you have even more secrets because they live amongst the society of conformism. Smaller things will out someone in the conformist milieu. Don't make a naive mistake and think you hang with the sinless just because they espouse doctrines with seemingly utter conviction.

As for the witchcraft thing, I think that's expanding the meaning a bit beyond its intention.

I think witchcraft for biblical purposes encompasses paganism, sorcery, and women in general, but women who were midwives and herbalists more specifically. The Church has ever been misogynistic. A witch to the church was one who seduced men away from religious duties often by just being beautiful.  The word 'bitch' is a corruption of witch.

I don't think that even if you were a heinous and sickening pervert and insane dope fiend and into S and M and did weird rituals a man would be considered a witch. Even Anton LaVey would be ushered back into the fold if he repented.

But merely using entheogens to expand vision isn't witchcraft.


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...or something







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OfflineAtrium
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: eve69]
    #19280362 - 12/15/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
But merely using entheogens to expand vision isn't witchcraft.




It was my understanding that witchcraft entailed pursuing visions or any enlightenment without entirely attaining them from prayer and fasting. I may very well be wrong but the use of drugs is prevalent in paganism is it not? Obviously the idea of throwing random shit in pots and riding broom sticks and turning into cats isn't so real but Ayahuasca specifically was both prevalent in those times and is speculated that when Moses came down the mountain after seeing the burning bush along with the 10 commandments, he was tripping bawls. Doesn't explain away the claim that the people looking up at him were blinded by the light of his presence encompassed with God .

That was a bit off track but I felt, necessary.

I would definitely like some sort of divine message saying that entheogen use is permitted, however I believe the only sort of permission will be received through said drugs. Meaning, well, the voice of God would either be muddled or not of God in the first place.

I have been told by many of my fathers co-workers so to speak, such as other pastors, that I need to find my faith and establish a solid connection with God. From one man, I seriously heard, "You need to go somewhere that you can be alone with God and make that connection because, James, he has something special planned for you". Ok, this is what came to mind.

DMT. I procured that shit like right after he had said it. That, and mescaline and a few grams of MDMA lol. In my mind, that almost confirmed that what I was planning on doing for so long, should be done. Eat some entheogens :smile:. But a report I read on the Nexus sort of scared me. I read a story of a man who tripped and saw a large 50ft demon writing into a book of names which had his name as the next to be written there. When the traveler asked what this was the demon replied without shifting focus something along the lines of,"This is the book of the damned. You sold your soul the first time you tripped DMT and I am writing your name here".

Really these past few weeks have been weird but today with the TeenChallenge it made me finally want to ask these questions so sorry if the title and intentions are misleading. I simply want that connection with God but am afraid my means of getting there are not... justified.


--------------------
The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it.

The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry. :tongue2:


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Offlineeve69
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
    #19280495 - 12/15/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You are wrapped up in mental fantasies which include your whole religious understanding.  I don't know you or how true what I just said was, but from what you say I would suggest that you already live in a world of witchcraft but one of the magical thinking of Christianity. It's funny to think that Christians think they aren't magic users when they pray for and against people at the drop of a dime.

Religions, as much as they like, do not control reality, and as God underlies everything (or nothing) ones own choices are in fact God's plan.

If substances allow you to get a grasp of what your personal path is then in a way they are knowledge with which to make fewer mistakes in your life.

You're going to encounter all sorts of paltry thinking knuckleheads who bad tripped and then went running to Momma religion - save my soul (as if they even had one).

When you look in the mirror you see the hair on your head, or maybe you see you don't have hair cause you're bald.

In what mirror do you see your soul in?

I suggest that the whole world and how you see it is your mirror.  Do you see soul? Or no soul?  Those who see devils, are there devils? Or are there only the devils of that person?

These questions aren't really rhetorical. The world is as you are. Because it filters through your mind.

There is really only your mind.

Give great care to your mind.

Entheogens help many they ruin others.  It's a dice toss.  But you sound really conflicted at the outset so I feel a bit of fear for you regarding such high power dopes as DMT. I am pretty sure Jesus wants you to give it all to me.


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...or something







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OfflineAtrium
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: eve69]
    #19280568 - 12/15/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Don't lump me in with other Christians simply because I have the ability to ask questions which conflict with my personal beliefs and thus, can think objectively.

I believe in some form of a god which grants wishes based on unselfishness but not exactly of the bible. I use the bible as a starting point as it was my fathers religion which he raised me in and then passed on from cancer. As such, I both have many well respected allies in the church, and many questions of the validity of the bible itself.

I still attend simply not to leave my mother stranded by herself amongst people whom she wished were there for her more often.

To finally let that pass, I am a pursuer of psychology as a student right now and so I see many thoughts of psychedelia as ways to "cleanse" our subconscious minds from torment by the lessons they teach us. An example being that recently I have found I need to make more female friends as opposed to always going the sexual route with them.

In regards to souls, I feel they are quite real. You apparently feel they are not. I don't see the point in arguing a belief system such as this.

My conflicting energy, I feel, is both of ignorance of never yet experiencing this chem, and a want for something more in my life besides living week to week on a paycheck until I die; Love and such. I am just afraid of what negative implications I can be left with if I am wrong on this path; Again, due to ignorance.

Thank you for having an adult conversation with me but please, don't tell me I'm wrong (as I believe all are wrong) and do not jump to conclusions about my philosophies. I am who I am; conforming to a specific idea replaces my individuality.


--------------------
The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it.

The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry. :tongue2:


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Offlineeve69
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
    #19280613 - 12/15/13 06:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't mean it in a bad way. It's hard to get across very contrary ideas as THE medium for discussion rather than as a side effect of people slapping each other on the back for their very agreeable congruity.  Most people can't consider anything foreign at all, so that you gave me a bit of consideration was just fine by me. Thanks for reading. 

This that you said shows me that you are spending time in magical and fantastical thinking:

Quote:


I have been told by many of my fathers co-workers so to speak, such as other pastors, that I need to find my faith and establish a solid connection with God. From one man, I seriously heard, "You need to go somewhere that you can be alone with God and make that connection because, James, he has something special planned for you". Ok, this is what came to mind.

DMT. I procured that shit like right after he had said it. That, and mescaline and a few grams of MDMA lol. In my mind, that almost confirmed that what I was planning on doing for so long, should be done. Eat some entheogens :smile:. But a report I read on the Nexus sort of scared me. I read a story of a man who tripped and saw a large 50ft demon writing into a book of names which had his name as the next to be written there. When the traveler asked what this was the demon replied without shifting focus something along the lines of,"This is the book of the damned. You sold your soul the first time you tripped DMT and I am writing your name here".

Really these past few weeks have been weird but today with the TeenChallenge it made me finally want to ask these questions so sorry if the title and intentions are misleading. I simply want that connection with God but am afraid my means of getting there are not... justified.




And just because you're studying psychology doesn't really mean that you'll come through it with any more REAL understanding of the human psyche.  Just more fantastical terms for what goes on.  Psychiatry as a field is magic with some scientific wishfulness.

In response to your dissatisfaction with the mundane, yes, that is a fact of life and intoxication has served for all of time as a remedy. However, as the passing of the 60s proves, when the trip is over

it's over


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...or something







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OfflineAtrium
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: eve69]
    #19280680 - 12/15/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's a product of my wishful thinking in that I want some sort of justification for my experimentation with drugs lol that's it. I don't (and I doubt anybody does) want to feel during or after the trip that I will be going to hell because of what I'm doing. That's pretty basic I feel.

I whole-heartedly agree. Being a doctor gives no more understanding of the human body and it's workings as a person who just simply studies this and knows it. It is a title and I wanted to make clear my interest in the psyche and things meta-physical which define us. Personally I see the magic, so to speak, in the science behind it. Fantastical, as you put it, beliefs in the orange pill bottle helping a non-physical ailment. The way oxycodone will not cure a broken bone, Prozac will not cure a broken spirit.

Humans wish to get high. That's why cigarettes and caffeine and alcohol are legal. We just give different words to them because, as Childish Gambino put it, "Nigga we ain't them, we ain't them". It allows a separation of those three as not "bad" drugs.

On the topic of the 60's, I feel that is a candy-coated view of life to believe one can remove itself entirely from a society without any responsibilities and still be seen as successful by anyone other than their peers. I am much more akin to 2010's where every person whom has the slightest bit of intelligence seems to have experimented with drugs and used them responsibly. We don't exactly have a over-use counter-culture like the 60's with acid, or the 80's with coke, or the 90's and early 2000's with raves. Correct me if I'm wrong on that subject :smile: I'd love to visit the "scene of 2010's" to say I was there before mass attention fucked it to being a popularity contest.


--------------------
The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it.

The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry. :tongue2:


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
    #19280735 - 12/15/13 07:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

People like that often have no experience with drugs at all. They just like to say that they do so that they seem important/knowledgeable/cool/etc. The reality is that they've never tried anything. I've met people like that over and over. People who claim to have done soooo much, but have never actually touched any drug ever.

What they're really after is money. They couldn't care less about the other stuff. Those "rehab" places are virtually all physically and mentally abusive, and for that abuse you pay through the nose.


Edited by nooneman (12/15/13 07:13 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
    #19286262 - 12/16/13 10:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So is your question, is using psychedelics for spiritual purposes witchcraft in the eyes of the Lord?

This is something I have struggled with myself as a Christian tripper. I think part of the problem is that in our culture we have no socially accepted use for these chemicals. For example, you have to ask yourself, would you feel the same way about your psychedelic use if they were used legally as part of psychotherapy sessions and they were proven effective at helping people heal from various psychological problems? When use experiment with psychedelics on our own, with no guide or any idea what we are really doing, we are absolutely putting our souls in danger. I know that much be true, we are opening ourselves to energies which we do not understand and do not know how to control and these things can lead to serious spiritual problems as they did for me, when I took a lot of psychedelics and had a spiritual awakening long before I was ready for it.

You see one spiritual risk of psychedelics if that you will force a spiritual experience you are not ready for and this can have very negative effects on the soul, it can blow apart its identity which can then take years to rebuild. I know all this from personal experience.

On the other hand, I also look at psychedelics as being powerful spiritual medicine which when used in the right way, can have incredibly positive effects on the soul. I have also had healing experiences on psychedelics which brought me back to God and in fact, I joined the Catholic CHurch as a result of a series of LSD trips during which I felt inexplicably called to the Holy Catholic Church.

Ultimately, I think that God would rather us pursue him through prayer and devotion because these are much safer than tripping balls.

However, I also dont think there is anything wrong using psychedelics for healing when you are suffering from serious energy blockages. Ultimately I think you need to decide. You need to ask yourself these questions:

What is my motivation? Am I doing this to get high or to see stuff beyond the ordinary or am I am guenuinely trying to grow closer to God/heal myself?

What are my experiences like? Do I feel like I am healing or connecting with with God or I am being drawn into revelry or getting in touch with dark spirits?

What are the effects on my life?

When you do everything with love and thanksgiving and the best possible intentions, then I dont believe you need to worry about what youre doing. But if you dont have pure intentions and you disobey warning signs that you are in danger, than you should be very worried.

In conclusion I dont know for sure. WHo really knows what psychedelics do to us? all I know is that I have received both darkness and light from them (whereas real Christian practices give you only light). But this doesnt mean psychedelics are bad or evil. It could very well be that God made them as medicine for souls who have gone seriously astray. Thats kind of how I look at them. If you truly devoted to and in love with God, you dont really need psychedelics. And yet icf you are completely lost in darkness, chances are you are not worshipping God and then a pssychedelic experience can completely change your trajectory and lead you back to God. There is no one but us to ultimately decide what is good and bad, so we have to make our own minds about psychedelics and how or whether to use them. thats how I feel.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
    #19287608 - 12/17/13 08:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Ultimately, I think that God would rather us pursue him through prayer and devotion because these are much safer than tripping balls.



Presumably your God made the chemicals.  So if he has the sort of "intentions" for us that you're suggesting, why wouldn't he have just "skipped" the drug thing and moved us directly to the "prayer and devotion" thing?  I mean, wouldn't that make a lot more sense?

Lol.  Just being playful here.  I know the dogma. :wink:

For some bizarre and inexplicable reason, God is "testing" us, yes?  Just like in the Garden of Eden.  There are things we may partake of and things we may not.  The choice is ours, and the punishments and rewards are impressive.

The Judeo/Christian mythology of a scheming, conniving God who holds out forbidden apples to see if we will bite is so ludicrous that it's good.  Entertaining, actually.

Any fans of the filmmaker John Waters out there?

His stuff is so ludicrous that it's good, too.  :cool:


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
    #19287662 - 12/17/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:  Thinking that we could know what actions god prefers is pretty tasty as well.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #19289327 - 12/17/13 04:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sleepwalker said:
:thumbup:  Thinking that we could know what actions god prefers is pretty tasty as well.




No it's not at all, God has made it clear that he "loveth righteousness". So God prefers actions that come from a pure heart, what matters most is good will. God is not far from us, he is in us and is us. So don't trick yourself into thinking its not possible to know his will.


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