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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Posts: 34,247
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19287971 - 12/17/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
For myself I think that it sounds nice in some ways due to the fact that we care (a few of us)  about the suffering of these individuals...




You aren't actually equating those who think others should not be forcibly treated with not caring?

Really?

Because it seems to me that those suggesting some be treated against their wishes are the ones who don't care. Your desire to help others does not over-ride their desire to be left alone.




No I'm not saying that.  I'm saying that people who may advocate for forcing others at times may have good intentions.  Like you I'm not one of them. My intention is to let them do their best and if they need it ask for help. It's what I would and do want for myself.




OK. I glad we agree.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19288016 - 12/17/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No only means no when the person intends to say no.  If, however, the person is forced to say no by a disease, then he/she might actually mean yes.

Of course, to you it means no either way.


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19288096 - 12/17/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That would be a tough call to determine when a person was exercising free will. I wouldn't want anyone making that call on my life. Of course many want to make the call on all sorts of things pertaining to my life. We have so few real freedoms left it seems and the right to my own life and body, imo shouldn't ever be in the hands of some outside agency no matter what their intentions.  I might as well just then conceed myself fully  to the majority collective and be done with it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19288106 - 12/17/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So if someone falls prey to a rare disease that literally forces them to refuse treatment, you'd take that refusal at face value?

First, since you've now answered my question and made it clear that I misunderstood you, I take back my assertion that you would force every and all drug users into treatment. Instead you would force into treatment those you deem to be "far gone", though I don't know how you would determine what that arbitrary line means or when someone has crossed it. For the record, I completely disagree with you that forcing treatment on anyone who says no is moral or ethical regardless of anyone's estimation of the addicts mental capacity.

I also take back my assertion that when you would force treatment on someone you deem "far gone", it would be with a gun. Though I must tell you that your idea of putting someone under siege without weapons until they give in is silly on its face and completely impractical. If I were put under such a siege, when I eventually had to come out, it would be with with guns and grenades and with suicide explosives strapped to my chest. And having seen that my future holds only pain and torment at the hands of do-gooders bent on saving me, I would be fully prepared to detonate when they rush me so I can help society on my way out by taking as many assholes who think they're my nanny with me as I could. I'm pretty sure many other Americans similarly trapped would respond the same way.

As I've already pointed out, I think your kind of thinking that forcing your wishes on people who don't want it and who are otherwise peaceful is one of the motivators breeding domestic terrorism when people are pinned against the wall by the endless stream of intrusive laws regulating private behavior.

And finally, we've already seen what can happen when absolutely determined people who are prepared to die for their freedom are put under siege. See the Waco Siege, the MOVE Siege, and others in recent history.

It's idiotic to risk the death of a bunch of people to save one person who doesn't want the help and isn't hurting anyone.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19288115 - 12/17/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No only means no when the person intends to say no.

This is beyond retarded. The next time a woman says no, I'm going to assume she means yes and fuck her anyway. I mean who could possibly say no to a stud like me. Duh.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Posts: 34,247
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19288138 - 12/17/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
No only means no when the person intends to say no.  If, however, the person is forced to say no by a disease, then he/she might actually mean yes.

Of course, to you it means no either way.




It's not for me to decide what someone "actually" means,

It is up to me to respect their wishes and not force my desires onto them.

Offering my help is moral. Forcing it upon those who do not wish it is immoral.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19288170 - 12/17/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It appears that the core of our disagreement is a matter of form instead of function.  You accept the word "no" regardless of whether or not in indicates a freely made decision.  I am not so black and white about it.  If someone threatens someone to make them refuse treatment, that's not a true expression of their free will.  There are myriad ways to make someone say "no" without them actually meaning it.

I look to the competence of the person.  Sure, for the most part, people who say no are doing so because they are expressing their actual wishes in the matter.  That is, of course, the normal way that it should be interpreted...

...But I haven't been talking about anything "normal" in this thread at all.  I have been talking about those rare and exceptional cases where a person is compelled by their illness to resist any and all attempts to stop using a drug...and compelled to the point where their own volition cannot override that compulsion, regardless of how much that person might actually want to be free of their addiction. 

In those cases, by respecting the "no", you're doing exactly the opposite of what that person wants.  THAT is immoral.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19288181 - 12/17/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Initiating force is always immoral under any circumstances unless in self defense.

I wouldn't expect socialist s to understand this though.

maybe we should sieze Enlil and send him to "ethics treatment" in church because some of us have deemed him unable to determine right from wrong?


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
    #19288185 - 12/17/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Initiating force is always immoral under any circumstances unless in self defense.




Lol...so closing a door is wrong unless it's in self defense?  Lifting a glass of water to my mouth is wrong? 

You really need to work on this theory a bit more before you present it in a public post.


--------------------
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InvisibleShins
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
    #19288187 - 12/17/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You nor anyone is smart or capable enough to make that judgement enlil.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19288194 - 12/17/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Initiating force is always immoral under any circumstances unless in self defense.




Lol...so closing a door is wrong unless it's in self defense?  Lifting a glass of water to my mouth is wrong? 

You really need to work on this theory a bit more before you present it in a public post.





You don't need to play dumb man, you do a good enough job of acting dumb normally.

you know exactly what I mean; initiate force on another person.

I don't know why you play these stupid games, troll.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19288195 - 12/17/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have been talking about those rare and exceptional cases where a person is compelled by their illness to resist any and all attempts to stop using a drug...and compelled to the point where their own volition cannot override that compulsion, regardless of how much that person might actually want to be free of their addiction.

Unless you have a crystal ball or some privileged information about the internal state of the consciousness you would foist treatment on, you have no way of knowing this. You can't assume someone actually wants treatment when they clearly say they don't.

So where does that leave us? Default to forced treating everyone who says NO on the off chance that an occasional NO actually means yes? Or default to respecting the clearly stated wishes of those who say NO and accept that there may be an occasional YES in the crowd who wants treatment but says NO and doesn't get it.

C'mon man. I know you're smarter than this. Why can't you simply admit that your proposal is silly.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleShins
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Posts: 16,337
Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
    #19288203 - 12/17/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Socialists all think they are so smart that they can tell you what's best for you and then apply it by force whether you agree or not.

sick of that shit.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
    #19288213 - 12/17/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
You nor anyone is smart or capable enough to make that judgement enlil.



I don't think so.  There is a pretty solid foundation for it currently in use in civil commitment/guardianship proceedings.  A system is already in place where people are evaluated to determine whether they are competent to handle their affairs and make decisions for themselves.  It's not perfect, of course, but it certainly is good enough to use as a starting point. 

Assuming, of course, that forced treatment is proven effective enough to be a viable option, which is still an unknown at this point.


--------------------
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Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19288217 - 12/17/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
In those cases, by respecting the "no", you're doing exactly the opposite of what that person wants.  THAT is immoral.




I'm respecting the wish conveyed. Doing as I wish as opposed to what the individual wants/conveys/grunts/writes is the immoral act.

My wishes do not supersede others. I am not omnipotent. Neither I nor anyone else should have the power to over-ride their wishes.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19288225 - 12/17/13 11:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Of course you think you're smart enough to tell people what's best for them

you're a smartass and a socialist after all.


I think you need forced ethics treatment.  The government should sends goons to take you to a catholic boarding house, how does that sound to you?


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
    #19288228 - 12/17/13 12:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Why would it matter how it sounds to me?  If I need forced ethics treatment, my opinion doesn't much matter, does it?


--------------------
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Ask an Attorney

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
    #19288242 - 12/17/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Of course you think you're smart enough to tell people what's best for them

you're a smartass and a socialist after all.


I think you need forced ethics treatment.  The government should sends goons to take you to a catholic boarding house, how does that sound to you?





What's with the name calling? 
Grow up a bit and come back.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19288244 - 12/17/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Why would it matter how it sounds to me?  If I need forced ethics treatment, my opinion doesn't much matter, does it?





Exactly.  /thread

it wouldn't matter what you thought anyways because another person is employing goons to take you away anyways.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19288254 - 12/17/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

There is a pretty solid foundation for it currently in use in civil commitment/guardianship proceedings.

And that system works because it is applied to people who are hurting others or interfering with the peaceful functioning of society. It doesn't go and accost "crazy people" who are otherwise minding their own business and bothering no one.

Your proposal is to proactively attack drug users deemed "far gone" even if they are bothering no one. If some drug user is causing problems, disturbing neighbors, stealing, vandalizing or a million things that are ALREADY against the law, then sure, lock them up and treat them involuntarily if necessary.

But attacking and treating a drug user who bothers no one no matter how "far gone" you or anyone else thinks they are is unethical and immoral, and it is trivial to so demonstrate to anyone with a neutral, objective view.

I can see you are so emotionally invested in this that you will not admit you are wrong even when it's obvious.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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