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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19287615 - 12/17/13 08:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Certainly, forced treatment is what I've been talking about.  That doesn't mean I would do it.  I talk about many things I wouldn't do.

My point is that I wouldn't be morally opposed to it if it were proven effective and necessary.  Even so, that doesn't necessarily make it the best, or even a good, idea.  It just makes it morally permissible in my book

There may very well be other better solutions out there that would make forced treatment the less-desirable choice.  I don't know.  I'm not even convinced that forced treatment is effective enough to make it a viable option.  There is data to suggest that it can be effective, but there are also plenty of experts who claim that it is almost never effective.  I'm certainly not an expert, so I can't make a claim one way or another.

...hence why I'd need it to be proven effective before I could ever sign off on it morally, and then only in the extreme cases where a person has reached the point where he/she can no longer rationally make decisions about his/her health.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19287634 - 12/17/13 08:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

And so we return to you would force someone to do something and I would not.

The better solution you speak of is to help those that wish it and to leave those who decline your help alone.

There is nothing moral about forcing your will onto addicts.

No means (or at least it should) no.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19287653 - 12/17/13 08:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

And back to the point of mutual understanding and disagreement.  Whew!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19287749 - 12/17/13 09:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I never said it would be a police force.  It would have nothing to do with law enforcement.  If you think it's not possible, then you haven't been out much.  People, including violent fugitives, are apprehended every single day in this country by people who are not armed with deadly weapons.

As I said before, the goal is to help people who are incapable of helping themselves.  This isn't about law enforcement.

And if you think that not tolerating lies about me is "self-righteous", I suggest you look up the term.






I don't get out much it's true but I do know these things cost money and spending months to bring in one addict might be a tad prohibitive.

I've just decided that someone is incapable of helping themselves. I don't think they should have a say in the matter.  (Sounds like the missionaries and we know how that turned out.) 

And you are tolerating lies or truths by just continuing to post here and respond.  Really, how have you not tolerated anything.  Of course I can remember back in my early days here demanding an apology or two. :curbyourenthusiasm:  That turned out real well. 

But my honor or personal integrity has nothing to do with what others say or don't say about me.  Let em have at me if it helps them out.  Nothing is going to change. My debate will stand or fall on it's own merit rather than me demanding others say this or that.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19287768 - 12/17/13 09:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Sure it would cost a lot of money per apprehension, but there would be so few apprehensions that it would still be far cheaper than the current system.  In addition, the vast majority of people apprehended for forced treatment would not take months or even weeks.

"tolerate" can have many meanings I suppose, but when the guy with the "m" next to his name chooses to be a reprehensible liar and assassinate my character, I've very little recourse.  I'm not going to let him stop me from discussing the issues with the rest of you, however.  That would be giving him even more undeserved power than he already has.  On the other hand, I'm certainly not going to acquiesce to his arbitrary conditions, either.

I don't expect him to apologize, retract his statements, or even acknowledge that he was wrong.  I expect him to continue in his typical self-righteous pattern of declaring what I think, feel, believe, and advocate for without regard to truth, accuracy, or potential damage to my reputation.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19287806 - 12/17/13 09:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well I can see you think you are right or if you don't you aren't going to budge.

For myself I think that it sounds nice in some ways due to the fact that we care (a few of us)  about the suffering of these individuals but it would be just too dangerous to implement and not have it become abused due to the ill intent of people who need power over others for whatever reason.  That's my story and for now I'm stickin to it. :satansmoking:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19287821 - 12/17/13 09:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you about the abuse potential.  This is why I have repeatedly said that I'd only be okay with it morally if it were proven necessary.  To me, this means that there would have to be many checks and balances in place to reduce the risk of abuse of the system.

Of course no system is perfect, but I'm sure that the system could be accurate enough to reduce the risk of abuse/mistake to a very low point.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19287847 - 12/17/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's an interesting question, though.  What error rate is acceptable?  1%?  Would it be acceptable to treat 99 people that actually wanted treatment but were incapable of consenting if it meant that 1 person went through a few weeks of detox that shouldn't have?  I think I'd be okay with that ratio if we're talking about saving that many lives.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19287863 - 12/17/13 10:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
For myself I think that it sounds nice in some ways due to the fact that we care (a few of us)  about the suffering of these individuals...




You aren't actually equating those who think others should not be forcibly treated with not caring?

Really?

Because it seems to me that those suggesting some be treated against their wishes are the ones who don't care. Your desire to help others does not over-ride their desire to be left alone.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19287872 - 12/17/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You're still missing the point, though.  "desire to be left alone" may not be genuine.  We're talking about people who are so fucked up that they don't have any rational desires at all.  Really, we're talking about people who, if we could go back in time and ask them, would say, "if I ever get that fucked up, please drag my ass into a rehab".

They just can't say that any longer because they've become a slave to the chemical.

I wonder what you would do if a brother, sister, son, daughter, or other loved one got to a place where they were killing themselves in front of you.  If you could slip a magic pill in their coffee that would suddenly cure the addiction...would you do it?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19287885 - 12/17/13 10:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No. I respect my family members far too much to force them to do anything.

I've missed no point. I simply disagree with the "point" you are failing at making. Telling me I'm "missing the point" is rather foolish. I fully understand you desire to help others. That desire does not over-ride another persons wishes.

If a loved one made their wishes known, I'd respect it even if I disagreed. It is not for me to decide for them or to disregard their wishes.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19287890 - 12/17/13 10:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So you don't believe that a person can become addicted to the point where they don't know what their wishes are?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19287898 - 12/17/13 10:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't care how addicted they are. My wishes do not supersede those of the individual in question. My desire to help others does not include my forcing my wishes upon them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19287903 - 12/17/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's not the question.  Do you believe that a person can get so afflicted with addiction that they are no longer able to even determine what their wishes are?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19287910 - 12/17/13 10:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Could be. Doesn't matter. The person says no, it's a no.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19287917 - 12/17/13 10:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So, for you, it's all about the verbal expression.  So if someone falls prey to a rare disease that literally forces them to refuse treatment, you'd take that refusal at face value?


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19287934 - 12/17/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yup.

They say no, I respect the no.

And it doesn't have to be verbal. Could be in writing, could be an email or voice mail, could be a shaking of the head, could be the tears as you're restraining them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19287937 - 12/17/13 10:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Okay, so for you, consent doesn't have to be real...it just needs to be provable.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19287944 - 12/17/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
For myself I think that it sounds nice in some ways due to the fact that we care (a few of us)  about the suffering of these individuals...




You aren't actually equating those who think others should not be forcibly treated with not caring?

Really?

Because it seems to me that those suggesting some be treated against their wishes are the ones who don't care. Your desire to help others does not over-ride their desire to be left alone.




No I'm not saying that.  I'm saying that people who may advocate for forcing others at times may have good intentions.  Like you I'm not one of them. My intention is to let them do their best and if they need it ask for help. It's what I would and do want for myself.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19287962 - 12/17/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Okay, so for you, consent doesn't have to be real...it just needs to be provable.




The person in question says no, it's a no. That could be verbal. It could come in other forms.

It's not that hard to grasp my stance.

No means no. No. Means. No. No means no. No means no.

There are no circumstances under which I would force those who decline treatment to accept such treatment. Their wishes outweigh my desire.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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