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OfflineEthos
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16 Days and No Growth
    #19285809 - 12/16/13 08:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm working on my first grow and I'm currently trying to grow Penis Envy, which, I understand, probably wasn't the best choice for my first grow.

Out of 8 jars, 4 were duds and never populated in the incubator. 2 were contaminated. And 1 developed some kind orange/brown spot, while in the fruiting chamber, that may have been contamination (according to some people here). So I got rid of it rather than take any chances.

I'm down to 1 half-pint jar (using the modified PF Tek as described in the book, "Psilocybin Mushroom Handbook") that's currently in the fruiting chamber. The temp stays roughly between 68 and 73 degrees and the humidity, between 60 and 75%. It gets 8 hours of light every day and we mist it twice daily.

It was put in the FC on December 1st. So it's been 16 days and there's no sign of pinning or any kind of growth whatsoever. I have no problem being patient, but the book said it would take a few days to a couple weeks to see growth. So does it sound like I'm on track or is something wrong? Is there something I should try that will stimulate growth?

Regarding Watering/Misting:
The book doesn't go into nearly enough detail about watering using the modified PF Tek. So that's a wild card to me. Should there be any standing water at the bottom of the half-pint jars after misting? How long after the morning misting should the casing layer at the top of the jar look moist? Today, for example, my wife misted the jar in the morning. But eight hours later, the casing layer still glistened with moisture. The humidity was about 73% at that time and there was no standing water at the bottom of the jar.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.


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OfflineCaddilac
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19285886 - 12/16/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Not be condoning illegal act but on my research in the past PE is a minimal fruiter from spore til cloned i think. and Fan FAE is important. its said that water evaporation triggers pins . Good luck. ps did you dunk em?


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OfflineEthos
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Caddilac]
    #19285918 - 12/16/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Caddilac said:
Not be condoning illegal act but on my research in the past PE is a minimal fruiter from spore til cloned i think. and Fan FAE is important. its said that water evaporation triggers pins . Good luck. ps did you dunk em?





Yeah, I have some B+ that I'll try after I run out of PE (still have 8 great-looking jars in incubation). Didn't dunk. I'm not using that technique. I'm using the modified PF Tek where you fruit them in the half-pint jars with the sides covered with cardboard or tin foil so the fruiting only occurs out the top.


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Offlinekinkaku
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19286134 - 12/16/13 09:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

a cube is a cube is a cube they are all the same so no one variety of cubensis is harder to to grow than the next. that being said you're going to want to try for 90 to 100% rh. as for the misting you should be misting and fanning again and again until the water doesnt evaporate off, if there is still water on it the next misting cycle then just fan it and see if it evaporates,if so do the mist/fan again.

and last but not least just have patience for the cake in fruiting, it may take its time.:thumbup:


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Offlinebulsie
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: kinkaku]
    #19286179 - 12/16/13 09:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Mabey not enough air circulation ?


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: kinkaku]
    #19286247 - 12/16/13 10:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kinkaku said:
a cube is a cube is a cube they are all the same so no one variety of cubensis is harder to to grow than the next. that being said you're going to want to try for 90 to 100% rh. as for the misting you should be misting and fanning again and again until the water doesnt evaporate off, if there is still water on it the next misting cycle then just fan it and see if it evaporates,if so do the mist/fan again.

and last but not least just have patience for the cake in fruiting, it may take its time.:thumbup:



:thumbup:
and also check your moisture level, just pick it up, if it's light give it a dunk


--------------------

It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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OfflineSgt. Pepper
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: kinkaku]
    #19286277 - 12/16/13 10:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kinkaku said:
a cube is a cube is a cube they are all the same so no one variety of cubensis is harder to to grow than the next. that being said you're going to want to try for 90 to 100% rh. as for the misting you should be misting and fanning again and again until the water doesnt evaporate off, if there is still water on it the next misting cycle then just fan it and see if it evaporates,if so do the mist/fan again.

and last but not least just have patience for the cake in fruiting, it may take its time.:thumbup:




Actually a cube is a cube is a cube except for penis envy. PE is a mutation and it actually does have more potent fruits and it is somewhat more difficult to cultivate than regular cubes. So his b+ grow may turn out better than his PE grow.


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19286340 - 12/16/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

no there is no exception in cubes when it comes to fruiting conditions, same subs same temps same rh it's a cube and should be treated like one


--------------------

It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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OfflineEthos
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19287014 - 12/17/13 03:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not sure everyone commenting is familiar with the "Improved PF Tek" that's outlined in the book I mentioned above. I'm not doing the typical PF technique. I'm not dunking and rolling my cakes and then placing them on perlite for growing. With the modified or "Improved" PF technique, this isn't required, neither is fanning the cakes. In fact, this technique is designed so that you don't have to use perlite and it's made to be simpler than the typical PF Technique.

Has anyone here tried this specific technique successfully? I feel like if I start using methods designed for the perlite grow chambers, I'm going to be mixing my methods. I'm thinking I should stick with one method, but what do I know? This is my first grow and I'm getting mixed messages.

Since I'm leaving the cakes in the jars during fruiting, and I'm restricting the growing to the top surface of the exposed casing layer, I don't think I should be fanning, since the book doesn't talk about needing to do this with this version of PF Tek.

I'm a noob, so I'm also easily confused. So...PE is harder to grow...PE is NOT harder to grow....??? Arrrgh!

Thoughts? Comments?


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OfflineSuperSillyUs
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19287112 - 12/17/13 04:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Standing water = bad. Especially in the bottom of your jars, I'd think.
Are ya sure it's water and not metabolites? Not sure if those are considered a contamination risk...

Not sure what book you're talking about. Not Stamets', is it:
Psilocybin Mushroom Handbook: Easy Indoor and Outdoor Cultivation?
That's not a bad place to start, not as good as The Shroomery, of course...:tongue: Nothing is as good as The Shroomery.
Especially when you're on the Shroomery. lol, but anyhow...just ask the author of the tek/book. If you can. Or post a link.

Do an advanced search here for keywords "pinning triggers"...trusted cultivator, newer than 2 years?


I think pinning triggers, once you get past sterile technique, pc
problems, etc, is the main headache for people in general, was gonna
say new people but...I still have to remind myself to not helicopter
over ma mega-turkey-tray-cakes. Anyways, I think if I remember correctly,
and good luck with that!,the main pinning trigger is evaporation.

So, mist like a mother, then let it evaporate. Repeat as necessary and be patient. Some people were saying lack of nutrition was also a 'pinning strategy' buuut...given that there's 3 and 4 flushes...maybe not. Then again, is there really such a thing as a 'flush'? I haven't seen it. Mainly once it starts pinning it doesn't seem to produce a 'flush' then rest, then produce another 'flush'...just keeps pinning left and right consistently, so maybe lack of nutrition, i.e. the mycelium has reached some kind of boundary of the easily edible substrate, has something to do with stimulating fruit body production...ask a TC. Do a search. Then, sit back...

and feel confused at the wealth of differing opinion. Ain't life grand, Miss. V?
You are not alone. There's much still to be discovered and nailed down, seems like.

Despite da 'big wigs.'
What do I know?  :flowstone:


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OfflineEthos
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: SuperSillyUs]
    #19288796 - 12/17/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SuperSillyUs said:
Standing water = bad. Especially in the bottom of your jars, I'd think.
Are ya sure it's water and not metabolites? Not sure if those are considered a contamination risk...

Not sure what book you're talking about. Not Stamets', is it:
Psilocybin Mushroom Handbook: Easy Indoor and Outdoor Cultivation?





First, do metabolites ever look like water? If so, how can anyone tell if it's metabolites and not simply too much water? So I guess I'm not sure what it is. I've seen what looks like a little too much water pooling at the bottom of a jar. I just hold back watering/misting until it returns to normal. Is that the right move?

Second, that's exactly the book. It's by L.G. Nicholas and Kerry Ogame. Page 85 is where they start talking about "The 'Improved' PF Tek". It's a great book, overall...other than the lack of watering information. :-)

Thanks for your suggestions. I've done searches but never noticed those other options. As for contacting the authors, I've thought about doing that. Not sure how to reach them, but I haven't checked yet.


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19288895 - 12/17/13 02:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

no metabolites are a rusty color, wut type of fc you got?


--------------------

It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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OfflineSuperSillyUs
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19288904 - 12/17/13 02:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well, pinning and waiting for pinning is a common theme for anyone involved in this hobby. Sometimes they pin slow sometimes they pin fast. (16 days isn't that long)
Also depends if you let it 'consolidate.' After 100% of the outside is colonized, sometimes the inner core still needs a bit of work. Birthing before this is done...
will just mean a longer wait for pins. Also, pins can sense when you're watching them and are very shy. True story.
:awejeez: 

Metabolites, if memory serves, are kinda pasty lookng. Thick, somewhat yellowish.
Surely there's a few pictures onboard here of them. Some call it 'myc piss'.
Oh, the Shroomery bro-culture-she-nanny-gams! Never gets old!

Yeah, I like that book. Kinda got me to realize yeild isn't everything.
There's a few kind souls on here. They really stick out, seems to me.
Lock on and follow their movements, hover around their threads like a friendly gnat.
Without going up their nose!
Maybe ask them something smart concerning your grow
...after you've searched and searched on your own, obviously.
Don't be hurt when they ignore you by accident. Like I always am. lol


Question: Why is it still in the jar anyways?
More surface area = more space for the pins to bloom.

Is it, because you have only one left?
Hm, that is a problem. If all of them failed but this one, 7 out of 8, the chances for this lonely straggler are fairly slim. Which sucks.

Still, never fear. Just kinda neglect tek it.
Do something else, mist and fan regularly. Save up for more than one syringe next time and run a series of tries. Taking notes and watching.

I promise you, I failed hard the first 5 or 6 times I tried at this hobby. And, I was busting my ass. Really only succeeded a few years ago when we moved to a carpet less house.
Not sure if that had anything to do with it or not....but, like magic! every attempt in that house worked, where the 3 or 4 years prior, all had ended with defeat.

Perseverance, patience, ommmmm


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OfflineSuperSillyUs
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: SuperSillyUs]
    #19288983 - 12/17/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19167516#19167516
'Bottom Watering'  Interesting stuff. Also amusing watching haters writhe in agony, lol.


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OfflineEthos
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: cronicr]
    #19290325 - 12/17/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
no metabolites are a rusty color, wut type of fc you got?




Thanks for your reply. I'm a noob, so you're going to have to spell things out for me. What's "fc"?


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OfflineSgt. Pepper
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19290337 - 12/17/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Fc: fruiting chamber.


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OfflineEthos
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: SuperSillyUs]
    #19290409 - 12/17/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SuperSillyUs said:
Well, pinning and waiting for pinning is a common theme for anyone involved in this hobby. Sometimes they pin slow sometimes they pin fast. (16 days isn't that long)
Also depends if you let it 'consolidate.' After 100% of the outside is colonized, sometimes the inner core still needs a bit of work. Birthing before this is done...
will just mean a longer wait for pins. Also, pins can sense when you're watching them and are very shy. True story.

Question: Why is it still in the jar anyways?
More surface area = more space for the pins to bloom.

Is it, because you have only one left?
Hm, that is a problem. If all of them failed but this one, 7 out of 8, the chances for this lonely straggler are fairly slim. Which sucks.

  [snip]

Still, never fear. Just kinda neglect tek it.
Do something else, mist and fan regularly. Save up for more than one syringe next time and run a series of tries. Taking notes and watching.

  [snip]

Perseverance, patience, ommmmm






Well, when I consider the consolidation factor, that changes things a bit. I didn't give it the additional week that is often suggested. Perhaps I was a bit too excited to get on with the growing phase.

This is my very first attempt at growing. And when I injected the spores, the bulk of them seemed to be clumped in the middle of the liquid in the syringe. I tried to mix it up, but I suspect that 4 jars failed because there just weren't enough spores to populate it. That left 4 more jars. 2 were contaminated, discovered during incubation. 2 went into the growing chamber and one developed an orange/brown/dark-brown spot on it. I suspect it was due to over-watering. We pitched it, just to be safe. So I'm down to my last one of my first batch and first shot at growing.

So if I consider that the first week may have been finishing the inner population process, that means it's only been about 9 days. Guess it's not so far off as I thought.

Although, I'm not waiting for this one jar before I do anything else. I currently have 8 more PE in the incubator and those look fantastic. Many were 100% last weekend. I'm giving them more time, this time around.

After that, I have two more syringes, both B+. So I'm in this for the long haul. Naturally, I'm just excited to see something growing. This is a fun and fascinating process. :-)

The reason I have one still in the jar is because I'm following the procedure in the book. And that's how they do it. Since I like that process, I'm happy to go with it. Later on, I'll change my method, but now, I'm just getting experience with a basic process.

So do you think that fanning would still be a good idea, even though the book doesn't say it's needed? Obviously, the people who wrote the book have been very successful with this method, so I'm sure it works just fine.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. :-)


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OfflineEthos
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19290450 - 12/17/13 08:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
Fc: fruiting chamber.




Oh...duh! LOL I guess I have what is called a "shotgun" FC. It's a clear plastic box and I've drilled a bunch of holes in it. I only have one jar in it right now, but this is roughly what it looks like. Keep in mind that I'm not using the typical method. I'm using the "Improved" PF Technique. So there's not supposed to be perlite and the jars are supposed to be covered exactly as in the picture. Also, I've placed a wet paper towel in the chamber (off to one side) to increase humidity, which worked like a charm.



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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19290549 - 12/17/13 08:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That's not a SGFC with out perlite, also I never heard of "improved pf tek" but I can't see what the improvement could be.


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InvisibleMudaFuka
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19290690 - 12/17/13 09:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You definitely need to fan mushrooms love fresh air. Also your humidity is kinda low.  I keep mine over 90 at all times.  I'm not trying to be a dick but the tek your using sounds kinda bunk. You should look at some of the teks on this site.


--------------------
AMU
Bottle Tek
Liquid Inoculant Tek                                   
                     


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OfflineEthos
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: MudaFuka]
    #19290771 - 12/17/13 09:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
That's not a SGFC with out perlite, also I never heard of "improved pf tek" but I can't see what the improvement could be.




As I've stated before, I'm noobish. :-) I assume that the SG in SGFC means "shot gun". Correct? I was just guessing about what "shot gun" actually meant. Either way, that picture is a close approximation of my current setup with a couple of exceptions already noted above.

Quote:

MudaFuka said:
You definitely need to fan mushrooms love fresh air. Also your humidity is kinda low.  I keep mine over 90 at all times.  I'm not trying to be a dick but the tek your using sounds kinda bunk. You should look at some of the teks on this site.





Also, as I stated in the short paragraph above the picture I posted, the fruiting chamber I posted a picture of isn't exactly my current setup. So the humidity in that picture is not the humidity I currently have. You may also notice, that I said, "Also, I've placed a wet paper towel in the chamber (off to one side) to increase humidity, which worked like a charm." It was right there, with the picture. I'm also not trying to be a dick, but if you take a minute to scan entire thread, you'll see that we've covered where I'm getting my "improved" PF Tek from. It's not bunk just because you've never heard of it. :-)


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19290876 - 12/17/13 10:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Just cause you have holes in your tub does not mean its a SGFC. A proper SGFC has 4" of wet perlite, 1/4" holes in a 2" grid pattern on all six sides with the chamber elevated a few inches. If you decide to go off and use an experimental unproven tek then there really isn't anything anyone can do to help you. If you want fruits, build a proper SGFC, and do the pf tek the way it was meant to be done.

From looking at what you have posted I can tell you that that setup will probably have low RH and low FAE which will yield crap results. Since that is not what you actually have this is just a guess, but from what you have described I'm gonna bet that you will have crap results.


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19290939 - 12/17/13 10:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Almost looks like an enoki set up


--------------------

It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: cronicr]
    #19290966 - 12/17/13 10:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The 'improved pf tek' was published in a 2006 book on mushroom growing.

I'm sorry man but that is really old info. Put some wet perlite in the chamber (4 - 5 inches) and pop the cakes out of the jar, dunk them in water over night and then roll them in vermiculite. Put them back in the chamber on a small piece of foil.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


Edited by elasticaltiger (12/17/13 10:48 PM)


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19290984 - 12/17/13 10:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
The 'improved pf tek' was published in a 2006 book on mushroom growing.

I'm sorry man but that is really old info.



:themoreyouknow:


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OfflineEthos
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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19291711 - 12/18/13 03:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Just cause you have holes in your tub does not mean its a SGFC. A proper SGFC has 4" of wet perlite, 1/4" holes in a 2" grid pattern on all six sides with the chamber elevated a few inches. If you decide to go off and use an experimental unproven tek then there really isn't anything anyone can do to help you. If you want fruits, build a proper SGFC, and do the pf tek the way it was meant to be done.

From looking at what you have posted I can tell you that that setup will probably have low RH and low FAE which will yield crap results. Since that is not what you actually have this is just a guess, but from what you have described I'm gonna bet that you will have crap results.




I feel like I'm just repeating myself. While I know that everyone's intention is to be helpful, and everyone is, to an extent, what's not helpful is when people make assumptions. I'm right here. Why not just ask me to clarify something rather than make assumptions? If you're not familiar with the modification of the PF technique, don't make suggestions before you ask me some questions. I may be a noob, but I'm happy to answer questions, if I can.

Now, getting more specific to what you said, Pasywhyte, my setup is NOT experimental. And I've said this many times in this thread. My setup and technique is directly from a book. I've talked about the book and listed the authors. Even if you've never heard of the book and the authors, the book was well-reviewed. And personally, I think it's well-written and I like the book, even though I still have some questions.

Here's a short quote from the book:

*  *  *

"At this point in the original PF Tek, the "cakes" of mycelium are knocked out of the jars and placed upside down on a bed of moistened perlite at the bottom of a clear container such as an aquarium or a plastic storage bin, which is covered to maintain high humidity levels. The fruiting chamber is placed beneath a light source (fluorescent grow lights connected to a timer or even a brightly lit window). The cover is removed once or twice a daily, and the cakes are fanned by hand to remove built-up CO2, then misted with water from a hand spray bottle. In time, primorida form on the outer surface of the cake and eventually mature into full-sized mushrooms.

"In our 'improved' PF Tek, we leave the substrate in the jar, and mushrooms fruit only from the top surface of the jar. This serves a number of purposes. One, it eliminates the need for elaborate and messy tubs of perlite. Instead, the jars are placed into any clear enclosed container, or even a plastic bag, perforated to allow gas exchange. Two, the need for high ambient humidity is reduced, because the top layer of pure vermiculite acts as a casing layer, holding a reservoir of water that the developing fruits can draw upon."

*  *  *

Obviously, it goes on and explains more about the reason for this modification. With posting this short quote, I hope everyone will:

A) Quit making assumptions about this technique. If you're not familiar with it, it's okay. You're not a bad person. :-)
B) Quit assuming that my humidity is too low, especially if you're not familiar with the modified PF Tek. Ask questions first.
C) Quit trash-talking this technique. Just because it's not the more common technique that you might use or be familiar with, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it's a bad technique, or that it doesn't work.

Alright....moving along....

Does anyone have any further suggestions or observations?


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19291718 - 12/18/13 03:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
The 'improved pf tek' was published in a 2006 book on mushroom growing.

I'm sorry man but that is really old info. Put some wet perlite in the chamber (4 - 5 inches) and pop the cakes out of the jar, dunk them in water over night and then roll them in vermiculite. Put them back in the chamber on a small piece of foil.





Really old info? If you call a few years old "really old" then don't use the technique you suggested to me because it predates the modified technique I'm currently using...the one that was published in that book in 2006. So, thanks, I'll stick to this more recent technique rather than the older standard PF Tek for now. ;-)


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19291770 - 12/18/13 04:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Oh god this is painful. Let me be more specific. That FRUITING CHAMBER IS OUT OF DATE.  Nobody uses a damp paper towel anymore. I know you read it in a published book. But that may as well have been published eons ago.  Let me repeat myself. NOBODY USES THAT TECHNIQUE THE WAY YOU'VE DESCRIBED IT.

The shotgun fruiting chamber in it's current incarnation is more recent than 2006, at least in the form it takes now.  Please please for the love of god we are trying to help you. That book is out of date. The moist towel isn't doing anything for your humidity.  There is no reason to cover the sides of the cakes, you are only preventing the mycelium from harnessing light from all sides.  You are not preventing side pins.  You are setting yourself up for shitty results.  You are not getting fresh air exchange without the proper amount of perlite in the chamber. You have not created a proper dynamic airflow. 

Can someone please back me up here?  Where the fuck are you notahacker420 when I need you?

But what the fuck do I know.  Do whatever the fuck you want and come back here asking us what went wrong when you're not satisfied with your results.

P.S.  If, in 7 years, a child can be born, then learn to walk, read, do cartwheels, tell jokes etc... Then IMAGINE what we could have learned about mycelium in the same amount of time with an exponentially growing community running independent tests of different methods from all over the world.

7 years may as well be 700.  For all we know, four years from now people will be telling us the shotgun fruiting chamber is out of date but it sure as shit won't be in favor a wet towel.


--------------------
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Edited by elasticaltiger (12/18/13 04:10 AM)


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19291774 - 12/18/13 04:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

At this point in the original PF Tek, the "cakes" of mycelium are knocked out of the jars and placed upside down on a bed of moistened perlite at the bottom of a clear container such as an aquarium or a plastic storage bin, which is covered to maintain high humidity levels. The fruiting chamber is placed beneath a light source (fluorescent grow lights connected to a timer or even a brightly lit window). The cover is removed once or twice a daily, and the cakes are fanned by hand to remove built-up CO2, then misted with water from a hand spray bottle. In time, primorida form on the outer surface of the cake and eventually mature into full-sized mushrooms.




By the way, this does NOT describe the currently accepted PF Tek.  There is no covering. The quote of yours doesn't mention holes all over.  When the perlite in the bottom is COMBINED with the holes all over it creates passive fresh air exchange. When you mist and fan the cakes it promotes evaporation off the substrate WHICH IS NOW KNOWN TO BE ONE OF THE TOP PINNING TRIGGERS NEXT TO FULL COLONIZATION AND FRESH AIR.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


Edited by elasticaltiger (12/18/13 04:13 AM)


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19291843 - 12/18/13 04:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ethos said:
I'm not sure everyone commenting is familiar with the "Improved PF Tek" that's outlined in the book I mentioned above. I'm not doing the typical PF technique. I'm not dunking and rolling my cakes and then placing them on perlite for growing. With the modified or "Improved" PF technique, this isn't required, neither is fanning the cakes. In fact, this technique is designed so that you don't have to use perlite and it's made to be simpler than the typical PF Technique.

Has anyone here tried this specific technique successfully? I feel like if I start using methods designed for the perlite grow chambers, I'm going to be mixing my methods. I'm thinking I should stick with one method, but what do I know? This is my first grow and I'm getting mixed messages.

Since I'm leaving the cakes in the jars during fruiting, and I'm restricting the growing to the top surface of the exposed casing layer, I don't think I should be fanning, since the book doesn't talk about needing to do this with this version of PF Tek.

I'm a noob, so I'm also easily confused. So...PE is harder to grow...PE is NOT harder to grow....??? Arrrgh!

Thoughts? Comments?




Now to answer your questions you've posted.  But it's hard to do since you're so determined to go by your book.

No, no one has experience with that method because no one uses it.

Some people say PE is harder to grow. Some people get lucky. For every successful PE grow on cakes you will find two unsuccessful grows on cakes.  When spawning to bulk substrate it is documented that success is more common at least in terms of shroomery threads.

Your humidity is low. Maybe the book told you that 75% was acceptable but the standard these days is 99%.

There should be no standing water in your jars. This creates a reservoir for bacteria to grow.

You should mist when the cakes look dry.  After misting you should always fan to promote evaporation.  Your book didn't talk about it because their understanding of pinning triggers was incomplete.

Yes something is wrong, you are using a method that is not ideal, possibly not ideal for that variety you've chosen to grow.  You have no pins in 16 days which is, while not unheard of, not normal.

One other thing of note.  Your cake is probably super dry.  You didn't dunk it in water for 24 hours (again, this is the standard these days.) your mycelium has used up all the water in the substrate and needs to be rehydrated.  NO misting is not enough to replenish this moisture. You need to dunk it.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19294382 - 12/18/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
No, no one has experience with that method because no one uses it.





I didn't quote everything because it doesn't matter. I know that you don't speak for everyone, so what you said above is just silly.

I never said that the book suggested a moist paper towel. In fact, I've removed the paper towel. My fruiting chamber is exactly correct for the technique I'm using.

The quote I shared from the book is merely an excerpt. And that specific excerpt wasn't meant to be a step-by-step guide for the traditional PF Tek. You missed the point.

As far as I can tell, everything you said is irrelevant to my situation because it doesn't apply to the technique I'm using. And frankly, I trust published authors from 2006 who have gown mushrooms using this technique.


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19295410 - 12/18/13 10:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



Quotes about the Improved PF Tek from Trusted cultivators.
Quote:

Shea25 said:
Not really an ideal version of the PF tek by any means. You would get much better results birthing and dunking and rolling the cakes

That should be called the lazy PF tek or Oops I used the wrong type of jars pf tek(in the event you so happened to)




Quote:

hyphae said:
New improved? LOL You guys are right it's a step back not forward.




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You can fruit that way, but in no way is it 'improved'.  In fact, it's the old school way we did it in the early 80's. It lessens the area available for fruiting, thus reducing yields.
RR




Your method is bunk.

Quote:

Ethos said:
Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
No, no one has experience with that method because no one uses it.





I didn't quote everything because it doesn't matter. I know that you don't speak for everyone, so what you said above is just silly.

I never said that the book suggested a moist paper towel. In fact, I've removed the paper towel. My fruiting chamber is exactly correct for the technique I'm using.




And your technique is bunk.

Quote:

The quote I shared from the book is merely an excerpt. And that specific excerpt wasn't meant to be a step-by-step guide for the traditional PF Tek. You missed the point.




No I didn't, the book reflects a very old understanding of what PF tek used to be. Now it's changed. There are only a handful of threads that mention using the method you've described. Why do you think that is?  Is it because the method your using sucks?

Definitely.


Quote:

As far as I can tell, everything you said is irrelevant to my situation because it doesn't apply to the technique I'm using. And frankly, I trust published authors from 2006 who have gown mushrooms using this technique.




Right because only smart people and experts can publish books and they're definitely never wrong about anything and always give correct information.  Certainly a community of dedicated growers conducting experiments daily has nothing on these geniuses.

You wanted advice.  You wanted to know how to get pins. We are telling you and you're throwing it back in our faces because you want to stick with what you're doing (which obviously isn't working.)

Birth the cakes, dunk them in water over night, roll them in dry vermiculite the next day.  Put 5 inches of wet perlite in that chamber and put the cake in it on a piece of foil.  Mist and fan the cakes.

Do you want mushrooms or not?

One thing you completely ignored from my post is that evaporation of moisture off the substrate is one of the main pinning triggers.  We know this now.  We didn't know it 7 years ago.  The environment you created does not allow this evaporation to occur.

Quit being thick and set yourself up for success.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19295522 - 12/18/13 10:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:whathesaid: :lol:


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19309820 - 12/21/13 10:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Okay. I'd like to post what I consider to be the conclusion of this thread. So here goes...

For those of you who were trying to be helpful and were civil about it, I sincerely appreciate your help. Just because I hadn't gotten any pinning yet, that didn't mean my method was bad or didn't work. It turned out there was another reason for this and only one person figured it out. In the end, SuperSillyUs was right on target when he said:

Quote:

SuperSillyUs said:
Well, pinning and waiting for pinning is a common theme for anyone involved in this hobby. Sometimes they pin slow sometimes they pin fast. (16 days isn't that long)
Also depends if you let it 'consolidate.' After 100% of the outside is colonized, sometimes the inner core still needs a bit of work.




When I subtracted about 7 days from the time my jar had been in the fruiting chamber to account for the inner core being populated with mycelium, it had only been 9 days at the time I posted the first post of this thread. So I was premature in asking for help, but I didn't know that. And when I asked for help, I started to get some.

I got a lot of advice that mostly didn't apply to my method of growing. But for some reason, a couple people seemed to take it personally that I wasn't willing to use the more common method which was considered, by the God's of Mushroom Growing, to be so obviously better than my out-dated method. So instead of being patient with a noob and fostering fellowship in our wonderful mushroom-growing community, they got rude and unfriendly. Well-played, guys. Way to make a noob feel at-home.

So the "Improved" PF Tek method that I'm using was called "bunk". I was told that nobody uses it because it doesn't work. I was told that it sucks. And the authors of the book I got this method from were basically discredited. I picked the "Improved" PF Tek method because it seemed simpler, cheaper, a little less messy, and seemed to require less effort during the fruiting stage.

With this method...

  • There is no need to birth the cakes - they stay in the jars.
  • There's no need to soak the cakes in water overnight.
  • You don't have to roll them in dry vermiculite.
  • There's no need to prepare perlite and put 5 inches of wet perlite in the fruiting chamber.
  • You don't need to place the cakes on a piece of foil and on top of the wet perlite.
  • There's also no reason to keep high humidity in the fruiting chamber.
  • And lastly, there's no reason to fan the cakes after misting to stimulate pinning.


This method is so much simpler...but we've advanced far beyond this simpler method by today's standards, I am told. Basically, I was told that it's no wonder I wasn't getting any pinning since this method obviously didn't work.

To those of you who said this method sucked and doesn't work and that you obviously know better than the authors of the book who simplified the standard PF Tek method...

You can suck my Penis Envy!! :-)




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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19309825 - 12/21/13 10:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

too bad there's only one fruit to suck and we can't all share the harvest:smirk:
best of luck in the future Ethos and be sure to keep posting, new things are not the end of the world maybe you can find ways to make your own tweaks down the road:thumbup:


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: cronicr]
    #19309851 - 12/21/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
too bad there's only one fruit to suck and we can't all share the harvest:smirk:
best of luck in the future Ethos and be sure to keep posting, new things are not the end of the world maybe you can find ways to make your own tweaks down the road:thumbup:




Thanks, cronicr.  :grin:  I'm in this for the long haul. And I'm just getting started. I have 8 great-looking jars about ready join this lonely jar. And for now, I'm sticking with this method, better or not. It's certainly MUCH simpler, and that's good enough for me right now.

Cheers!


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19309973 - 12/21/13 11:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry if I was overly harsh on your methods, I guess I was under the misguided impression that you wanted good results. Since you seem to be happy with the single fruit you got then I guess congratulations are in order. I guess that so many of us are so concerned with yields as the benchmark for success that we forget that there may be other things that people hope to get out of the growing experience.

Hope to see you perfecting your methods and sharing your results going forward. Happy growing :super:


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19312761 - 12/22/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It's funny how the single fruit he has came from the side of the jar because that was the only place where the environment was right for pinning.

Way to starve your mushrooms of water.

And congratulations. I didn't realize that a single malformed fruit was the result you wanted. My bad.  I'm sorry I questioned your decision.

Over time you're going to learn pretty quickly that this really isn't the hobby for people that want to make everything easier.  But all in good time.


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Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19312799 - 12/22/13 05:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You should really listen to elasticaltiger and pastywhyte. You're coming off like an arrogant newbie. In the mushroom community seven year old information might as well be 10,000 year old information from cave people banging their heads against rocks. The people you're arguing with have probably read the book you're referring to. Sit down and listen. Not trying to be harsh but srsly they are trying to help and they more or less do speak for everyone here.


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19313398 - 12/22/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not a mean person. I try to always treat other's the way I want to be treated--with kindness, patience and understanding. Likewise, if I'm treated in ways I don't approve of, mainly in harsh or aggressive ways, called names or cursed at, etc., then you are the one who has the problem. Not me.

And honestly, if you get frustrated with me because I'm a newb and I seem to be stubborn, then don't bother with me. Seriously.  I would rather not have your help then be treated badly by you. You helping me isn't worth it if you can't do it without getting frustrated with me. YOUR time is more valuable than that as well.

Also, I don't care if you're a GOD of mushroom growing. If you're not a nice person (or if you come off that way), I want nothing to do with you. I don't mean anything bad by that, I don't like to be around people who are like that. Being a God of mushroom growing with years of experience doesn't give anyone the right to be a jerk toward first-time mushroom growers.

Obviously, I'm speaking to everyone in general, not any one person. There's no way for me to express my tone here or my attitude. So what I'm saying may come off the wrong way. If you knew the sincerity with which I am saying this, or if you were to hear me speaking these words, you would know that I am being honest and sincere and I'm not trying in any way to be mean or to anger anyone.

If you can help me and your help comes across with kindness and patience, I'll gladly accept your help. If you are going to get frustrated and be shitty, then just ignore me or leave me alone. I won't be offended. Just go silent and ignore me if you think I'm not worth helping and I'll be cool with that.

I might be too ignorant to know the grand wisdom being imparted to me. I accept that and know that it's probably going to happen a million times before I become wiser and can recognize it. If you can accept that (because it likely happened to you too when you were just starting out), then offer your help. But don't get frustrated when I'm too ignorant to use it.

Good luck to you all with your future growing endeavors. I hope that if our paths cross in the future, it's in a positive light.


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19313519 - 12/22/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Again, I usually pride myself on being patient and tolerant but, you need a thick skin to hang out in cultivation. People who answer questions here answer a lot of them, many are the same question (so use the search engine :thumbup:) and in all fairness to any method someone may attempt to try for whatever reason, its best to learn with proven teks before branching out and experimenting. The reason for this is that doing a few grows with solid methods will give you a grounding in the mushroom life cycle, their needs, and be able to recognize and diagnose problems that are bound to arise when trying new things.

Here is the problem with going off tek or using an obscure method. When you run into trouble, no one can help. If your using a SGFC built to speck, with dunked and rolled cakes, we can spot right away if something is wrong with the setup. When we see the set up you posted, to our eyes the whole thing was wrong, and that was your problem. Maybe you live in an area with super high natural RH, but if I tried to use that thing you have in my house, my cakes would be dried out in 2 days and done. We try to give the best answers we can, in a general manner, so as to educate other people who creep these boards as well, thus helping many people at once.

If you want my advice on what to do now, I say fix your chamber so its a proper SGFC, birth those cakes out of the pots, dunk them for 24 hours and maybe a light roll, then set em on some small pieces of foil. Mist and fan 2-3 times a day, mist first then fan for 30 seconds. I guarantee that your results will be no worse than they are now, and will probably be far better.

I will admit that I am not much of a cake guy and rarely do them. But I have grown a few mushies and one thing I have learned is that good conditions give good results, poor conditions give poor results. Cubes are like weeds, so having one or two fruits is not a measure of an effective method. Good luck with your grow.


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19313534 - 12/22/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If u think this was a rough one i advise u not to got to the otd


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: cronicr]
    #19313539 - 12/22/13 08:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well said pastey


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Stromrider]
    #19330296 - 12/26/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm a fairly new grower but I didn't struggle to understand the wisdom being imparted to me. When I posted for advice it was because I wanted to take it. When you posted here it was basically to show off how you knew better than the community because of some book you found(otherwise you would have taken the advice and not argued about it).  People are acting frustrated because you aren't showing enough humility IMO. For the most part, claims about improving on teks require one to show the goods, I.e, side by side comparisons of the two methods using isolates.


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Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: sytar]
    #19330350 - 12/26/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sytar said:
I'm a fairly new grower but I didn't struggle to understand the wisdom being imparted to me. When I posted for advice it was because I wanted to take it. When you posted here it was basically to show off how you knew better than the community because of some book you found(otherwise you would have taken the advice and not argued about it).  People are acting frustrated because you aren't showing enough humility IMO. For the most part, claims about improving on teks require one to show the goods, I.e, side by side comparisons of the two methods using isolates.



:whathesaid:


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AMU
Bottle Tek
Liquid Inoculant Tek                                   
                     


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Offlineshroomnub4u
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Registered: 02/27/13
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Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: Ethos]
    #19330930 - 12/26/13 10:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Does anyone not read the previous post anymore? He is growing in vitro. You do not need cardboard or foil wrapped around the jars nor do you need a plastic bin. Mushroom will grow on the sides and form to the gaps. You need to make sure that the jars have holes in the lid and the jars need to be upside down but not on the ground. Air needs to be able to circulate, so put them on a screen off the ground or something. Also put the cake on a hollowed out Gatorade lid so its not resting on the lid blocking the holes. Growing in vitro in my experience takes longer to fruit as well as growing pe also take long than most cubes to fruit. If you search invitro growing you can find plenty of pictorials on the techniques I described above.


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“Develop success from failures. Discouragement and failure are two of the surest stepping stones to success.”
Dale Carnegie

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.”
Mark Twain


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
Trusted Cultivator
Re: 16 Days and No Growth [Re: shroomnub4u]
    #19330948 - 12/26/13 10:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

your describing the chronic tek, this is not the chronic tek:smbfacepalm:

that is though and i'll tell you from experience they have lots of issues


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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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