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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19285276 - 12/16/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oh, and I find it absolutely hilarious that you accuse me of emotional arguments, then proceed to shit in my ratings when you can't defend your position or even answer a simple, apropos question about it. That's some funny shit man.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19285485 - 12/16/13 07:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: You have said you would lock up and forcibly treat [paraphrasing] "anyone addicted to a substance, including nicotine and alcohol"

Quote:
Enlil said: I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who can responsibly manage their addiction be forced into treatment. Certain addicts reach a point where they have completely lost the ability to rationally control their behavior. These are the people that need treatment...mandatory if necessary. If a person has reached the point where their brain is so fucked up that antisocial behavior is inevitable, I feel it's much cheaper to treat them than keep incarcerating them.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17869254#17869254
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19285521 - 12/16/13 07:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Enlil said: I never advocated for forced treatment in this thread. I said I wouldn't morally object to it if it is proven necessary and effective. I never said I would "have you go" in that direction.
You're turning into diploid here assuming shit I didn't say and putting words in my mouth.
And as far as forced treatment goes, we do that for unconscious patients...Why shouldn't we do it for other people that are so ill that they are incapable of making rational decisions for themselves?
You wouldn't morally object if others did it to me though. Thanks for nuttin. 
I think it's wrong for unconscious patients also btw. If I have no insurance and I'm in a car wreck the doctors have carte blanc to go to town on me and then demand payment later on right down to taking my home and savings from me. Fuck that shit. Happened to a coworker of my Sister in Michigan. She lost her retirement and home.
Yeah, I agree. Fuck that shit, you should obviously just be abandoned and left for dead with the only expenses extracted from your estate for a nice swift cremation.
But here's the rub. I cannot have a signed statement on me saying I don't want to be resuscitated or have heroic measures in the hospital if I'm seriously injured and unconscious and have that be honored. Once I'm out I have no more rights. How is that freedom?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19285546 - 12/16/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Why can't you have a "do not resuscitate" order?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19285563 - 12/16/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's the real problem. People should have the option of refusing treatment with an advanced directive. That could even work for forced drug treatment as long as the person is capable of rational decision making when the directive is executed.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19285661 - 12/16/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's what I want to know?
Anyway, way the fuck off topic
Obummer will take care of me now anyway.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19285665 - 12/16/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Is he cutting the check?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19285709 - 12/16/13 07:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yep.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19285804 - 12/16/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Back on-off-on-topic: 
Quote:
Enlil said: I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who can responsibly manage their addiction be forced into treatment. Certain addicts reach a point where they have completely lost the ability to rationally control their behavior. These are the people that need treatment...mandatory if necessary. If a person has reached the point where their brain is so fucked up that antisocial behavior is inevitable, I feel it's much cheaper to treat them than keep incarcerating them.
Alright, I'll stipulate to this. You've still not told me how exactly you would force someone who puts up a fight into drug treatment without using police force. BTW, a few posts down from that quote you follow up with this:
Quote:
Enlil said: For me, the line is when the addiction replaces volition to the point that a person have a strong potential to harm another.
An addict is someone who has lost volitional control of their drug use. That is part of the definition. You can't have it both ways and tell me that you would force treatment of addicts who have lost volitional control but not addicts who still have volitional control. There is no such thing as an in-control addict and neither you nor anyone else can predict the future or the potential of an addict to harm another. You can't ethically force drug treatment of people who have harmed no one for something they MIGHT do in the future. So we're back where we started despite your protestations that I'm misinterpreting you.
And this also from your link:
Quote:
Enlil said: A person's actions, while important, are not nearly as important as his/her intent.
This is absurd. Attacking someone and locking them in a treatment cage for something they MIGHT do is Draconian and Orwellian both.
Quote:
Enlil said: If a person has reached the point where their brain is so fucked up that antisocial behavior is inevitable
No one can say what future behavior is inevitable and merits being forcibly treating someone. Again, you can't have it both ways and we're back where we started. Nothing you've said refutes my assertion that in your system all addicts would be attacked at gunpoint if necessary and forced into treatment. All addicts meet your qualifications for meriting force. Namely, the loss of volitional control over their drug use.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19285832 - 12/16/13 08:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Even after being confronted with solid proof of the falsity of one of your lies, you're unable to do the right thing and acknowledge that you've misrepresented my position and apologize for it.
You may continue the discussion with yourself as you've proven yourself incapable of anything resembling an intellectually honest debate.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19285870 - 12/16/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Yep.
No, he isn't
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19285919 - 12/16/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Even after being confronted with solid proof of the falsity of one of your lies
Lies? You make contradicting statements, refuse to answer questions intended to resolve those contradictions, then then call me a liar for misunderstanding you? Really?
Look Enlil, why don't you just answer my simple, direct questions so I might understand what you actually mean and I'll apologize if I misunderstood you. You have made contradicting statements and I can only go by what you write and the answers to my direct questions, not what you expect me to read in your mind.
Let's start with this one: How would you force someone into drug treatment without using police force if they absolutely refuse to go and are prepared to defend themselves with a weapon if necessary. It's not a hard question. Can I have an answer or are you going to call me a liar and refuse to answer again?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19286004 - 12/16/13 09:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've made myself clear in this thread several times. Here are the false and defamatory statements that you've made about me in this thread alone:
Quote:
Diploid said: But you do support the abducting of peaceful drug users, at gunpoint by thugs with badges if necessary, to compel them into residential drug treatment even if they have harmed no one.
Quote:
Diploid said: you are even on the record in favor of forced drug treatment of addicts to nicotine and alcohol.
Quote:
Diploid said: you have steadfastly insisted that ANY addiction constitutes a loss of free will and that justifies forcible drug treatment.
Quote:
Diploid said: You have said you would lock up and forcibly treat [paraphrasing] "anyone addicted to a substance, including nicotine and alcohol".
None of these statements by you are true, and ALL of them are intentional attempts to impugn my character by misrepresenting things I have said. I can't imagine why you'd expect me to answer any question or engage in any discussion with someone who resorts to such tactics.
Frankly, the fact that you seek to attack my character instead of my argument is evidence enough that you're not worth my time. The fact that you're willing to lie to do so is what makes you reprehensible and deserving of the rating I gave you.
What you have done in this thread is no different than if I said, "your opinion is invalid because you touch little boys." That's what you're doing here, only with a different subject matter. When you grow the fuck up, and frankly, man the fuck up and admit that you've repeatedly lied in this thread, maybe things will be different. Until then, you're nothing but another bullshit artist online that will say anything to feel like he "won" and truth be damned.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19286057 - 12/16/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I can't imagine why you'd expect me to answer any question
Because I perceive you saying one thing and you claim to be saying something else. I can't imagine any other way to clear that up other than to ask you questions and you answering them.
you seek to attack my character
I'm seeking to ask you a question to clarify how I can so misunderstand you as to think you advocate violent abduction and forced treatment of drug users when you claim not to.
For the 100th time: How would you force someone into drug treatment without using police force if they absolutely refuse to go and are prepared to defend themselves with a weapon if necessary.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19286067 - 12/16/13 09:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You made 4 statements. They weren't questions....they were statements. They weren't meant to clarify. They were meant to defame.
I've given you every opportunity to do the right thing and retract your false statements. It's clear that you're not going to do that, so our discussion ends here.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19286090 - 12/16/13 09:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've given you every opportunity to do the right thing and retract your false statements.
I'll happily do that if your answer to my questions merit it. Your refusal to answer is bizarre.
Quote:
How would you force someone into drug treatment without using police force if they absolutely refuse to go and are prepared to defend themselves with a weapon if necessary.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19286970 - 12/17/13 02:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Yep.
No, he isn't
Well someone is and it isn't me. That works ok.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19286980 - 12/17/13 03:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: You made 4 statements. They weren't questions....they were statements. They weren't meant to clarify. They were meant to defame.
I've given you every opportunity to do the right thing and retract your false statements. It's clear that you're not going to do that, so our discussion ends here.
Recently you told me that some people cannot admit when they might be wrong. I think this is a case of you doing that. I see no reason you can't answer Diploids question other than a refusal to see that you don't have a reasonable response. Not a surprise I guess but I guess I am a little. Live and learn.
Plus you've said "our discussion ends here" (or something similar) several times which is comical. And finally one does not need an apology if they are right. Asking for an apology before one responds is nothing more than a diversionary tactic.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19287152 - 12/17/13 04:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I could answer his question. I'm not going to tolerate having someone attack my character with lies. I'm certainly not going to dance like a monkey to his tune to coax him to retract his lies. Fuck that.
If anyone else asked the same questions, I'd answer in a heartbeat.
Look at it this way. He has, on at least 4 occasions in this thread, accused me of advocating a position that I have never advocated. He has accused me of saying things that I have never said. These aren't simple straw man arguments either. These are rhetorically loaded statements intended to paint me as some kind of zealot...which I am far from being.
As far as your "admit when they are wrong" argument, think about that. His question refers to the possibility of abducting someone by force without deadly force. Anyone with half a brain, if they used if for longer than 30 seconds, could figure out how to abduct someone without use of deadly force, regardless of how well that someone chose to arm/barricade himself/herself. It would be super easy to answer his question, actually. No one can be vigilant 24/7. Shit, anyone who's ever watched "dog, the bounty hunter" could probably answer that question.
My refusal to continue with that discussion is based solely on the disrespect he has shown me in this thread by repeatedly lying about me. I won't tolerate it, and I won't encourage it by complying with his requests...however simple they may be. I'm not concerned about winning or losing a debate. I am concerned with having my reputation and character besmirched with lies. I'm more than willing to let him, you, and everyone else think I've given up in order to stand my ground on the issue of my character.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287225 - 12/17/13 05:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: If anyone else asked the same questions, I'd answer in a heartbeat.
I'd like to know...
How would you force someone into drug treatment without using police force if they absolutely refuse to go and are prepared to defend themselves with a weapon if necessary?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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