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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Icelander]
    #19277442 - 12/15/13 01:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have only one view. When I say that I neither acknowledge nor the deny the existence of the world, I don't mean to imply uncertainty. I mean that I think it's a matter of perspective.

Dream is intermediate between successive waking states and death is intermediate between successive births. It is our decision as to whether we wish to regard death as a problem.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19277457 - 12/15/13 01:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree. Seeing death as a problem is a error in logical thinking to the excessive extent that we view it as a problem.  Not to mention the anxiety and suffering it brings.  Yet had we none we wouldn't have likely survived to have this conversation.

You can ignore death much of the time because culture has mostly removed it as a immediate problem.  But immediately  threaten your existence and you will likely react and use your mental resources to remedy the situation ignoring all else until that is accomplished.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Icelander]
    #19277500 - 12/15/13 02:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yes I recall one night I was feeling very depressed and wanted to die and then in the morning i woke up shaking with a high fever and became afraid and then I wanted nothing more than to live. it was pretty funny.

Anyway, in the Eastern Orthodox church there is a spiritual practice called remembrance of death which the spiritual seeker uses to destroy his pride and self will, by constantly remembering the fact that he is going to die and lose everything.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19277514 - 12/15/13 02:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I use that practice myself.  I actually appreciate things just a little more knowing they are temporary. Also when I feel life is not worth living I'm reassured that it is only a temporary issue.

Well I'm going to try and sleep. It's been fun discussing these issues with you tonight.  Take care. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Creationism [Re: Icelander]
    #19277534 - 12/15/13 02:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I enjoyed your guy's conversation a lot. :thumbup: Lots of good stuff.

I use a similar method of dealing with life. I always try to remember when the going gets rough, that 100 years from now, I'll be dead, and everyone I know who's involved with me will be dead, so there's nothing to worry about because in a short amount of time, it'll all be dust to dust.

We either create death as a problem or as a solution when it's convenient to us. (Like the example I gave where it's convenient.)

I don't really have anything to add, I just liked the conversation a lot. :lol:

:cheers:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19278460 - 12/15/13 09:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The way you synthesize Eastern mysticism and Western religious dogma, Deviate, is absolutely fascinating.  I've never encountered anyone who does it with such apparent intellectual ease as you.

My sense is that you speak from the heart -- that you're not intentionally bullshitting -- which in my opinion makes it all the more fascinating.

I consider myself a fairly open-minded and sophisticated thinker when it comes to this shit, and I can't begin to fathom how anyone with a deep and profound grounding in Eastern metaphysics can even begin to reconcile creationism with intuitive understanding.

Please answer this for me, Deviate:

When you have had profound mystical encounters on drugs (you're posting on this board and in this forum, so I assume you've had such encounters), you "leave" them with an intuitive sense or understanding that there's something or someone in some very mysterious place who through an act of will created all life on Planet Earth?

I'm not being facetious or sarcastic here.  I'm genuinely curious.

You walk away from those experiences with a sense that creationism might actually be true?


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OfflineBahaudeen
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Re: Creationism [Re: all this beauty]
    #19279711 - 12/15/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'd say if you want to stay away from being ignorant, use evidence to come to a conclusion instead of coming to a conclusion and then back it up with evidence.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: all this beauty]
    #19281474 - 12/15/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
The way you synthesize Eastern mysticism and Western religious dogma, Deviate, is absolutely fascinating.  I've never encountered anyone who does it with such apparent intellectual ease as you.

My sense is that you speak from the heart -- that you're not intentionally bullshitting -- which in my opinion makes it all the more fascinating.




Thank you, that is very kind of you but I have to say that Markosthegnostic possesses far more knowledge and understanding than I do and he has an ability to express things that far exceeds my own. Of course he has about 30 years on me, which is a big head start.

Quote:


I consider myself a fairly open-minded and sophisticated thinker when it comes to this shit, and I can't begin to fathom how anyone with a deep and profound grounding in Eastern metaphysics can even begin to reconcile creationism with intuitive understanding.




Why not? Hinduism describes the universes as being created, sustained and destroyed by Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. If you have a profound grounding in Eastern metaphysics, then you of course understand that the physical world is not regarded as the most fundamental level of reality. Rather eastern metaphysics describes the physical as being a manifestation, emanation, shadow, etc, of the supreme. This opens the door for creationism. Of course it can be interpreted in various ways, for instance we could say that if the world is an illusion than it was never created, so we could say creationism is false, but this is certainly not an affirmation of darwinian evolution. On the contrary, if one had to choose between creationism and darwin's theory of evolution from an eastern metaphysical standpoint, creationism would be far closer to the truth, as I said earlier in this thread.

Quote:


Please answer this for me, Deviate:

When you have had profound mystical encounters on drugs (you're posting on this board and in this forum, so I assume you've had such encounters), you "leave" them with an intuitive sense or understanding that there's something or someone in some very mysterious place who through an act of will created all life on Planet Earth?

I'm not being facetious or sarcastic here.  I'm genuinely curious.

You walk away from those experiences with a sense that creationism might actually be true?




obviously there is a creative intelligence at work, not in some very mysterious place but everywhere always. The basic energy that makes up everything is wonderfully creative by its very nature and the most incredible thing about this energy is that it can create absolutely anything. As far as I have observed and experienced, it has no limits. That is why Jesus said that for God, all things are possible. All the different realities that can be experienced, heaven, earth, hell and all the subtitles that the mind adds to experience are all manifestations of this single energy or as Christianity says all things were made by God, through Him and for Him.

This also happens to be a major part of what the human experience is about. Unlike other animals, humans were created in the image and likeness of God, meaning we take after Him in that we have an innate need to create. That is why humans create art, music, literature, architecture, inventions, religions, sciences, etc. Our whole way of relating to life and how we choose to live it, is itself a creative act. This is all the same basic creative energy at work taking on infinite forms, shapes and manifestations on and on forever and ever, always becoming something more, always doing something new.

Now just to be clear here, I am not saying that the Geneses account of creation is scientifically accurate. It was never intended to be. That's why so called creationist science is ridiculous, or like when sunday school teachers say that the 7 days described in Geneses were much longer than earth days. If you went up to a 1st century jew and started asking about that, they would probably look at you like you were nuts. They couldn't care less about science. That's not the point.

Perhaps we could say that science tries to describe and categorize everything as it appears to the senses, whereas religion describes things as they appear to the emotional mind and the spirit. Because happiness ultimately comes from the spirit and not the senses, I see religion as giving us higher truth than science.


Edited by Deviate (12/16/13 12:20 AM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19282872 - 12/16/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
On the contrary, if one had to choose between creationism and darwin's theory of evolution from an eastern metaphysical standpoint, creationism would be far closer to the truth, as I said earlier in this thread.



Well, everyone to his or her understanding of Eastern metaphysics...  but Eastern metaphysics, as I understand it, is not at all incompatible with science.  I find the anti-science sentiment inherent in some interpretations of mystical doctrine really unfortunate. 

Of course, if one adheres to the "nothing is real, everything is illusion" mindset, then sure, anything goes.  There just might be a Big Daddy in the Sky who populated a Garden of Eden.  But I choose not to surrender intellect and discernment in my pursuit of spiritual wisdom.  In fact, I think intellect and discernment are totally compatible with spiritual wisdom.  Probably a prerequisite, in fact.

Again, I appreciate your candor, Deviate.

Very hard to talk intelligibly about any of this shit, and you're pretty damn articulate at expressing what it is you believe in.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: all this beauty]
    #19284168 - 12/16/13 02:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


First of all, "Eastern metaphysics, as I understand it, is not at all incompatible with science. "




No metaphysics, eastern or western is really incompatable with "science" because "science" is a method more than anything. There are scientists who are Christian (in fact the scientfic movement was begun by catholics) and we Christians view science as simply one way of looking at God's infinite being. There is certainly no incompatibility between faith and science, as blessed John Paul II stated on many occasions. But if you mean to tell me that you dont think eastern metaphysics is at all incompatable with our current scientific understanding of the universe or the viewpoint and paradigms currently accepted by the scientific community, then you're completely delusional.

The scientific community by and large is completely at odds with the views taken by eastern metaphysics, even more so than western metaphysics. At least western metaphysics for the most part accepts the existence of a physical world that can be studied. On the other hand, the assumption that we exist independently of a physical world that has a real objective existence outside of us is denied by a large part of eastern metaphysics. And that's just the beginning. If you think ideas like karma, reincarnation, remembering past lives, buddhas, enlightenment, nirvana, siddhis/yogic powers, spiritual realms, miracles, etc are compatible with science, then like i said, you're totally nuts. No respected scientist can publicly take these things seriously without completely losing his credibility. I mean these are exactly the kind of thing that most scientifically minded people try to expose as fraudulent.

Quote:

I choose not to surrender intellect and discernment in my pursuit of spiritual wisdom.  In fact, I think intellect and discernment are totally compatible with spiritual wisdom.  Probably a prerequisite, in fact.




Spiritual wisdom is the surrender of intellect. Not as in "ok i will start believing in things that make no sense" but in the sense of recognizing that the intellect is limited and surrendering concepts all together, because no conceptual understanding can ever capture the truth of what is. Thats why in Zen Buddhism they tell you don't even need to understand Buddhism, it's not about intellectual understanding, its about sitting quietly in your natural state not bound by any particular viewpoint.

The natural states comes before concepts, and LONG before science. Thousands of years ago people lived full lives without science. Hence, a sophisticated scientific understanding of the universe is completely unnecessary. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with science of course.


Edited by Deviate (12/16/13 02:33 PM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19284351 - 12/16/13 02:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
But if you mean to tell me that you dont think eastern metaphysics is at all incompatable with our current scientific understanding of the universe or the viewpoint and paradigms currently accepted by the scientific community, then you're completely delusional.



The "incompatibility" is in your head, boyfriend. 

There is no "incompatibility" between science and mysticism.  The world of objective reality (as opposed to the world of subjective reality -- i.e., the world of ghosts, goblins, and gods) is totally compatible with the mystical.

Quote:

Deviate said:
On the other hand, the assumption that we exist independently of a physical world that has a real objective existence outside of us is denied by a large part of eastern metaphysics.



Not by the "eastern metaphysics" I hang out with, sweetie.

Read the Tao Te Ching, for example.  There's no denial of the physical world there.  Those ancient Chinese guys knew better.

Quote:

Deviate said:
If you think ideas like karma, reincarnation, remembering past lives, buddhas, enlightenment, nirvana, siddhis/yogic powers, spiritual realms, miracles, etc are compatible with science, then like i said, you're totally nuts.  No respected scientist can publicly take these things seriously without completely losing his credibility. I mean these are exactly the kind of thing that most scientifically minded people try to expose as fraudulent.




And so some (not all) of the things in your list should be.  They are fraudulent.  Magical hocus-pocus nonsense.

"Reincarnation" and "karma," for example, are 100 percent magical hocus-pocus nonsense.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19284506 - 12/16/13 03:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


"Reincarnation" and "karma," for example, are 100 percent magical hocus-pocus nonsense.




Not according to eastern metaphysics, which is what I thought we were talking about. If you believe that karma is 100% nonsense, then you can't have a very high opinion of eastern metaphysics.

If you were speaking specifically about the Tao Te Ching or Taoism, why did you say eastern metaphysics, the large part of which is completely based on the belief in karma? Its like if I said western metaphysics and then told you to read Mary Baker Eddy (creator of Christian science) to support my assertions.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19284523 - 12/16/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Spiritual wisdom is the surrender of intellect. Not as in "ok i will start believing in things that make no sense" but in the sense of recognizing that the intellect is limited and surrendering concepts all together, because no conceptual understanding can ever capture the truth of what is.



Ah. 

That's what in marriage law is called an "irreconcilable difference."  If you and I were married, that post of yours would authorize any judge to grant us a divorce.

"Spiritual wisdom" is the embrace of intellect.  Both the strengths and the weaknesses of intellect.

It's only through your intellect that you can discern.  That you can distinguish what is real from what is not real.

You surrender intellect at your peril, my friend.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19284675 - 12/16/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:


"Reincarnation" and "karma," for example, are 100 percent magical hocus-pocus nonsense.




Not according to eastern metaphysics, which is what I thought we were talking about. If you believe that karma is 100% nonsense, then you can't have a very high opinion of eastern metaphysics.



YOUR brand of eastern metaphysics.

"My brand" recognizes that stuff as metaphorical expression only.

They're not "real."

They're the attempts of frail human beings to eff the ineffable, if you will.

Quote:

Deviate said:
If you were speaking specifically about the Tao Te Ching or Taoism, why did you say eastern metaphysics, the large part of which is completely based on the belief in karma?



Philosophical Daoism (there's a religious school of Daoism as well -- which embraces all manner of western religious convention) is considered by some scholars to be the seed that gave rise to Buddhism, Hinduism, and related eastern disciplines.

Ideas such as "reincarnation" and "karma" are (in my opinion and in the opinion of some scholars) bastardizations of the ideas explored in the Tao Te Ching.

There are western analogies as well. 

The notion of physical resurrection from the dead -- a staple of much of Christendom -- is, in my opinion, a bastardization of the metaphorical expression represented by the emergence of Jesus, after three days, from the tomb.

It's in our frail and vulnerable human natures to try to come to grips with the sublime by reinterpreting it into the literal.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Creationism [Re: all this beauty]
    #19284831 - 12/16/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

With our brain we are able to see behind the veil, behind the physical theatre of actions, to recognize the world of ideas and principles and how they both are connected.
It seems our mind has evolutionary broken through a veil that ever has been there before.
We are just beginning to grasp, realize and utilize what we recently found us in.
Some of those kids, while growing up, usually do more harm in an unsupportive environment, which their ancestry has led them to.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: all this beauty]
    #19285720 - 12/16/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Spiritual wisdom is the surrender of intellect. Not as in "ok i will start believing in things that make no sense" but in the sense of recognizing that the intellect is limited and surrendering concepts all together, because no conceptual understanding can ever capture the truth of what is.



Ah. 

That's what in marriage law is called an "irreconcilable difference."  If you and I were married, that post of yours would authorize any judge to grant us a divorce.

"Spiritual wisdom" is the embrace of intellect.  Both the strengths and the weaknesses of intellect.

It's only through your intellect that you can discern.  That you can distinguish what is real from what is not real.

You surrender intellect at your peril, my friend.




I think I understand your point of view on this but I am not sure if you fully understand mine.

From my non dual perspective, there is no one there that needs to discern or to distinguish what is real from what is unreal. There is only being. My question to you would be, to whom is the peril? It is the intellect which says that there is peril. this is just a thought. there is no peril, nor does the intellect cease to function after it is surrendered. Enlightened beings have full use of the intellect.


Edited by Deviate (12/16/13 08:16 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19285813 - 12/16/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


YOUR brand of eastern metaphysics.

"My brand" recognizes that stuff as metaphorical expression only.

They're not "real."

They're the attempts of frail human beings to eff the ineffable, if you will.





You seem to be contradicting your earlier refusal to surrender the intellect. Yes, karma is a man made concept created in an attempt to understand that which cannot be understood. And yet, from the standpoint of the ego, the laws of karmic seem to hold. Each man reaps as he sows. This is why karma is useful concept.

There is a difference between being a metaphorical expression and being 100% nonsense, as you said karma was. Can you explain what you think karma is a metaphorical expression of and why you think it is 100% nonsense? none of the eastern gurus and saints I have studied have ever said karma was nonsense, why do you think you have a better udnerstanding of "eastern metaphysics" than they?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19285858 - 12/16/13 08:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Philosophical Daoism (there's a religious school of Daoism as well -- which embraces all manner of western religious convention) is considered by some scholars to be the seed that gave rise to Buddhism, Hinduism, and related eastern disciplines.




Well ok but why didn't you make that clear from the beginning of the thread then? I mean isn't this kind of like if we were discussing southern baptists and I kept putting  forth ideas that were in complete contradiction to southern baptist doctrine and when you pointed this out I said that southern baptist christianity actually has its roots in ancient Judaism? Regardless of where the roots lie, if you consider folks like the Buddha to be enlightened, then they are capable of speaking on their own authority, like Jesus spoke from authority rather than just saying "well this is true because scripture says it's true". In other words, the Buddha gave his own teaching, from his heart, not simply an interpretation of existing religion. And yet he accepted the laws of karma and reincarnation. THere is actually very detailed descriptions of these things and what they mean in Buddhist philosophy. It is easy to misunderstand what they mean and for example, form an idea about reincarnation that is not in accordance with real Buddhist teachings about reincarnation and yet that is not the same thing as reincarnation being nonsense.

Ideas such as "reincarnation" and "karma" are (in my opinion and in the opinion of some scholars) bastardizations of the ideas explored in the Tao Te Ching.

Quote:


There are western analogies as well.

The notion of physical resurrection from the dead -- a staple of much of Christendom -- is, in my opinion, a bastardization of the metaphorical expression represented by the emergence of Jesus, after three days, from the tomb.

It's in our frail and vulnerable human natures to try to come to grips with the sublime by reinterpreting it into the literal.




I would agree that the resurrection of the body is one of the most frequently misunderstood Christians doctrines but I don't quite see how that is the same thing as karma being 100% nonsense.


I guess here is my question about your position. You started off by saying that "eastern metaphysics" (without making any specification about what you meant by this) was completely compatible with science. I then showed you how the eastern metaphysics that is believed in by millions, perhaps billions of easterners is quite contrary to science and you then responded by saying "well that's actually not what I meant, I meant this certain version of eastern metaphysics that I completely failed to mention". Ok, fair enough, but if we are counting "versions" now, rather than just ideas which are most popular and widespread, then how is it that eastern metaphysics is compatible with science but western is not? Certainly there are versions of western metaphysics that are completely compatible with science. Do you see what I'm saying? When you use a broad term like "eastern metaphysics" I can only assume you mean the broad and widespread metaphysical ideas that are associated with eastern religion.


Edited by Deviate (12/16/13 08:43 PM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19286429 - 12/16/13 10:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Can you explain what you think karma is a metaphorical expression of and why you think it is 100% nonsense? none of the eastern gurus and saints I have studied have ever said karma was nonsense, why do you think you have a better understanding of "eastern metaphysics" than they?



"Karma" is a sort of metaphorical expression of the intuitive sense that there is order in the universe.  The sense that actions have consequences.  The sense that there are complementary forces in the universe that play off one another and shape existence.

Karma is not objectively "real," however.
   
Plenty of eight-year-olds earnestly believe that, next week, Santa is going to come down their chimneys and reward them for having been good.

As a metaphor for childhood innocence and the longing for reward, "Santa" is a useful notion.  But you and I know that Santa is not an objectively real thing...  yes?

"Karma" is not an objectively real thing either.

Understood metaphorically, it's useful.  Understood literally (by gurus, saints, and sinners alike), it's childish nonsense.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: all this beauty]
    #19286503 - 12/16/13 11:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

As I understand it, karma is cause and effect. Our actions have consequences and these consequences are ordered, such that one kind of action done with one kind of intention leads to one kind of consequence and another kind of action with another kind of intention leads to another kind of consequence.

Now different people may understand it in differing ways and I see that as ok, but I dont really see how the answer you gave justifies calling it 100% nonsense.


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