|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
#19379529 - 01/06/14 09:24 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
You would think they must need to get it from somewhere, nitrogen would be needed to produce proteins, DNA, alkaloids and so on. Perhaps it is often a limiting factor in habitat. If it's not in the rock/soil then I guess it still could be deposited as animal waste etc.
|
hookahhead
Planeteer



Registered: 01/10/11
Posts: 638
Loc: The Middle of Penns Woods
Last seen: 10 years, 18 days
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
#19379530 - 01/06/14 09:25 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
Cacti most certainly need nitrogen because they are green plants. Proteins and Alkaloids incorporate nitrogen in their structures. Debris gets washed into the cracks and decays, animals dedicate, stuff gets stuck to spines. I would try to figure out a way to add some nitrogen. Not sure if the bacteria will decay higher nitrogen sources? A carbon source to support the bacterial/fungal community is also something to consider. There may be some nitrogen fixation going on @ the roots, where atmospheric nitrogen is converted chemically to forms used by other biota, including plants and animals.
-------------------- "My worm farm" "96 Gallon Worm Tote" "Let Your Freak Flag Fly" "Respect Your Roots" "A KNEW IDEA"
"Nothing New" "Willkommen im EthnoGarten" "Don't Be a Backeberg" "Mites and Mealy Bugs" "The Heart and the Sun"
If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else. Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you. YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE. Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS. Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices “Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard
|
hookahhead
Planeteer



Registered: 01/10/11
Posts: 638
Loc: The Middle of Penns Woods
Last seen: 10 years, 18 days
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: hookahhead]
#19379532 - 01/06/14 09:25 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
Beat me to it!
Perhaps there is something beautiful going on here.. What if nitrogen fixing bacteria, are converting from atmospheric - organic, and metabolic wastes dissolve the stone. Plant's provide the carbon (out of thin air), and a structure (roots), and mop up the excretions to support the bacteria and themselves? Sort of like Lichens you hear about in Bio 101?
-------------------- "My worm farm" "96 Gallon Worm Tote" "Let Your Freak Flag Fly" "Respect Your Roots" "A KNEW IDEA"
"Nothing New" "Willkommen im EthnoGarten" "Don't Be a Backeberg" "Mites and Mealy Bugs" "The Heart and the Sun"
If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else. Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you. YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE. Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS. Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices “Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard
Edited by hookahhead (01/06/14 09:52 PM)
|
psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: hookahhead]
#19379648 - 01/06/14 09:48 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
Yeah that would be cool if there was some nitrogen fixing going on as well.
|
Mostly_Harmless
wyrd bið ful aræd



Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 5,043
Loc: Perfidious Albion
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: psi]
#19380270 - 01/07/14 12:04 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
A few interesting links 
____________________________________________
http://www.akimoo.com/2013/n2-fixing-bacteria-in-the-roots-of-species-of-cactus-opuntia-spp-l/
Quote:
Microbiota fixing molecular nitrogen in the roots of desert plants is poorly understood in particular that related to nopal (Opuntia spp L), so explore the capability of acetylene reduction (ARA) in roots of species of Opuntia and interaction with N2-fixing bacteria, plants collected were analyzed in some desert towns, Bustamante, Villa Garcia and Mina northeastern state of Nuevo Leon, Mexico.
____________________________________________
http://www.bashanfoundation.org/publications/thedesert.pdf
Quote:
The desert epiphyte Tillandsia recurvata harbours the nitrogen-fixing bacterium Pseudomonas stutze
____________________________________________
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=e_bIoAXLdKgC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=cacti+nitrogen+fixing&source=bl&ots=m_SRJZF4kD&sig=1cEio19YPFEQxa0bfLcIAYkTCoM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QKXLUonFB9G0hAf094EI&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=cacti%20nitrogen%20fixing&f=false

____________________________________________
http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/35412
Quote:
A plant-bacterium association between the giant cardon cactus Pachycereus pringlei and endophytic bacteria help seedlings establish and grow on barren rock, This cactus, together with other desert plants, is responsible for weathering ancient lava flows in the Baja California Peninsula of Mexico.When cardon seeds are inoculated with endophytic bacteria, the seedlings grow in pulverized rock for at least a year without fertilization and without showing distress. The bacteria-plant association released significant amounts of necessary nutrients from the substrate. When endophytic bacteria were eliminated from the seeds by antibiotics, development of seedlings stopped. In complementary experiments of sterile seeds inoculated with the same endophytic bacteria, plant growth was restored. This study and the previous one show that, under extreme environmental conditions, a symbiotic relationship is present between endophytic bacteria and their cactus host.
Keywords: Bacillus, cactus, cardon, desert, rock degradation, nitrogen fixation, Pachyereus, phosphate solubilization, rock weathering, soil formation
____________________________________________
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1740669/scientists_explain_how_cacti_grow_on_bare_rocks/
Quote:
However, neither are available from rock, which binds in minerals and contains no accessible nitrogen.
Bashan said the only explanation they could think of was a possible involvement of microorganisms assisting the plant to grow, fixing nitrogen and dissolving mineral.
“We looked for them and found them,” he added.
..
According to lab tests, the endophytic bacteria can also grow in the cactus fruit where it is then transferred into seeds. The bacteria can also weather rock, dissolving particles into smaller sizes.
Bashan said they believe they have found a new symbiosis between bacteria and plants, since the cactus is the carbon provider for the bacteria and the bacteria indirectly provide the minerals and nitrogen for the plant.
|
hookahhead
Planeteer



Registered: 01/10/11
Posts: 638
Loc: The Middle of Penns Woods
Last seen: 10 years, 18 days
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
#19380301 - 01/07/14 12:14 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
Amazing information guys, thank you for all of your contributions you have made to this site.
-------------------- "My worm farm" "96 Gallon Worm Tote" "Let Your Freak Flag Fly" "Respect Your Roots" "A KNEW IDEA"
"Nothing New" "Willkommen im EthnoGarten" "Don't Be a Backeberg" "Mites and Mealy Bugs" "The Heart and the Sun"
If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else. Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you. YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE. Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS. Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices “Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard
|
LSoares
Farmer



Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 3,209
Loc: Portugal
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: hookahhead]
#19380412 - 01/07/14 12:51 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
Nitrogen is naturally available to plants via 3 sources: decaying organic matter, ionization of molecular nitrogen by lightnings and fixation by symbiotic bacteria. I've started last year a regime of adding a very dilute fertilizer to the water I give my plants, I've read somewhere to aim at about 50 ppm nitrogen (will look for the article if needed), I use a little lower, about 30 ppm. Plants showed a definite increase in growth.
|
intelligentlife
Noaidi



Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 2,627
Loc: EU
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: LSoares] 1
#19380818 - 01/07/14 03:43 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
I have tested relatively high nitrogen dose to trichocereus... let's say as big amount of ferts than cannabis sativa cultivation in soil at vegetative stage.
Growth spurt was very noticeable.
However, I tried another fertilizers, different brand meant for soil and hydro, only organic soil fertilizers seems to be faster effective to cacti. Probably because organic soil fertilizers have their own bacteria in the liquid. Well not all but some of them..
I have tried basically almost all fertilizers except actual "cactus fertilizer" because in my country it cannot be get anywhere easily online. I should buy ferts from abroad. So I have used different fertilizers.
One of my friend use chicken poo to fertilize the cactus. She add it randomly above soil, then water to get it down trough rocky layer of soil and so on. She don't add it to every plant same time, said it smells too much, so 3-4 pot per week and next week new pots.
I have lots of different fertilizres, orchid ferts, common household plant fertilizers and more advanced fertilizers. I grow food plants also so that's why I have ferts but never have seen problem with using them to cactus. I use smaller amounts.
Also one way I fertilize my cacti is slower way what works over summer. I add at spring very strong black nitrogen soil to surface of soil in pot, then water spray the soil the way rocks and perlite at surface comes to visible. I have find out it works also but with delay, later on the fresh soil will sink down and fertilizers from it dissolve to plants.
Peyote I have not dare to use strong N fertilizers, I do it for few specimens and find they should be slowly adjusted to strong fertile soil.. Peyote basically tolerate high amount of N if plant have been in high N concentration soil long time. But sudden rise of N cause skin cracking too easy. Ariocarpus sp.. I have not notice any damage from high doses of fertilizers, only what I have notice, they change appearance more hot climate they are. Last summer I used heating pads for ariocarpus and few lophophora, root growth was very fast and ariocarpus change appearance to more different than plant in habitat, maybe because bottom heat is not natural way for them, heat comes always from sun, above.
About the fertilizers, I would never think to grow cactus without rocks in soil.. Even NPK-ferts are good, but common rocks and pumicide in soil I have find out roots will attach to the rocks, no matter what species, roots seems to attach to rocks, even small seedlings when they are get off from soil, there are rocks bigger than seedling attached to cactus. I have not seen species what doesn't grow roots around rocks and rocks will attach sometimes very tight to roots. I find this out before this thread and someway I don't understand it at first place before I read stone eaters documents. Even bigger rocks in pot reduce someway the root space, I see it's more benefit than harm. Minerals and soil with NPK mixed together are very good combination.
About these NPK-fertilizers, I have find out they increase trichocereus grow bigger and larger spines if strong light are present. I have actually one tricho as good example how much growh have change from lack of NPK to and after the dosage of high NPK even the light levels have not risen, plant looks it have got more light, but only what have really change is high dose of Nitrogen based fertilizer. This was totally new for me even I know all plants needs N to grow the growth after strong NPK seems light levels have risen lots, diameter increase, spines were bigger and so on.
I can later on show picture of new growth after strong NPK-ferts (mostly N) when I have done my business on the town.. Plant looks like it have been exposed to stronger light but thing is it's only have got very big dose of these "main compounds"
Now my plants are basically stunted because I don't water them even they receive light. When spring comes, I go to super market, buy soil with minerals and strong N content, add 1cm layers to each pot and do first watering from the top.. to get new soil dissolved and mixed to old.. It have been always helpful.. Sometimes I remove top layer small amount and add strong fertile black soil to top and water from top until it have been dissolved to old soil.. And when it's summer I use randomly different fertilizers I use for all plants.
I have read somewhere lophophora can be fertilized by spraying fertile water to their stomata when it's dark and they drain fertilizers by that way, i don't know do this information are correct or not. I have yet not been able to test it out with control plants..
Anyway, this thread is very good, very useful information! I have learned lots of new small things trough this! And yet I have understand even NPK-ferts are important, minerals are as important too..
I have really seen trichocereus growth rate very slow.. I mean only few centimeter in year, it's lack of fertilizing.. Some my friends think who I have given some trichs as gift they manage without fertilizers. One friend say I was lying because of growth rate was not what I have said. When I achieve 30-40cm growth of year(if plant is over 30-40cm) my friend achieved few centimeter.. I advice him these trichs will douuble their size over year but after year and half he said they don't but he really don't understand the cacti at all.. Also I have find out from another forums some people post pics of san pedro and think why they not grow fast.. There are really not much good information like this for cacti.. I really should introduce this document to my friend who had not managed to get trichs grow double their size over year..
Do you anyone have pictures what happens if trichs got overdose of NPK-ferts? how much they really can take? because I was sure one of my trichs will suffer of strong nitrogen but no.. plant seems to explode to growth! I have heard too much nitrogen can cause plant start grow pupping too much? is that because of nitrogen or some another chemical or bugs?
Well.. I need to got but I can take pic from cactus and mark the point where it have been grown with lack of ferts and you can see what kind of effects strong fertilizers caused to trichocereus. If I don't say it's because of fertilizers, not because of light level increase, most would really say new growth is because of strong light even only I have done is add strong soil to surface and pour strong cannabis growth fertilizer to it.. I could not believe myself at this because I think first growth was etiolation but it was basically lack of N. ...but I don't say poor light and strong nitrogen can give fat plants.. Just meant light environment was strong but growth was not like should be, I experienced by first hand how new soil and strong N effect to trichs, don't have tested this for many species, some species I dare I OD the fertilizers so I have give them small amounts. Also that chicken poo fertilizing from my friend have good results to trichs and "stop of etiolation" ..just way few hours, I show pics..
I upload pics when I come from town.. fuck I need to go police interview now.. no time to show pics yet.. but later I have very good example how much nitrogen have role with there columnars..!
Good work and information from everyone! very pleasant to read this all over again.. And because i don't understand english so much, I need to read few times before I can drain the information for good..
|
LSoares
Farmer



Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 3,209
Loc: Portugal
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: intelligentlife] 2
#19380894 - 01/07/14 04:22 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
Plant nutrition is a very complex matter, but here are few basics. Please, check with online sources or, better still, a book on a library. I am citing this by heart and it's been a LONG time since I had to study this stuff...
First off, Liebig's Law of the Minimum states (approximately) this: the evolution of a system is controlled by the scarcest resource. Hence, you can fertilize with whatever you wish that a plant's growth will be hindered by the nutrient that is LEAST available. Or, saying it otherwise, you only need to fertilize up to a certain point, past which it will be useless because other factors are limiting a plant's growth.
Plants get all of their sustenance from the solution that gets to their roots (and to a lesser extent, stems and leaves. I'll stick to xerophyte cacti for now), and what gets into that solution is what leaches out of the rocks and soil. The big ones - called "macronutrients" - potassium (K), phosphorous (P) and, on a somewhat lesser scale, calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg), but also all the other nutrients that are needed in far lesser amounts (called "trace elements" or "micronutrients"). This means that these elements are almost permanently and continuously available, because rocks are always eroding and leaching these elements to the soil, but also because of the particulars of nitrogen.
Nitrogen (N) is a whole different ball game. For starters, it's the one that's taken in larger quantities and also the one that won't be infinitely and continuously available, a soil can and will effectively be depleted of nitrogen pretty quickly. This is why the availability of the other nutrients is rarely a problem IN NATURAL SYSTEMS, remember Liebig's Law. In cultures, and particularly in pots, things are different.
When you start fertilizing with N, plant growth is vastly improved and supplementing with the other macronutrients becomes a necessity. However, there's a limit to fertilization with N. Past a certain point the plants enter a regime called "luxury consumption", in which they grow thinner and weaker, with longer inter-node spaces and thinner epidermis, much as if they were etiolating. This quickly leads to prostration, disease susceptibility and, ultimately, a lost crop (in case of a single plant, death). This is the other particularity on nitrogen that MUST be taken into account when fertilizing.
Experimenting is paramount when you are aiming at maximizing biomass production, to avoid the above scenario. For ornamental growers, starving the plants a little works just fine.
And when it comes to choosing a fertilizer, check a farmer's supplier. A good, concentrated fertilizer with all the trace elements you may wish for retails for a fraction of the price of a "cactus special" one. As for the characteristics, fertilizer composition of macronutrients is quoted as a three number that relates to the relative percentage of N-P-K. A 10-10-10 fertilizer has 10% each of either N, P or K. I don't like this, I usually go for a low nitrogen formulation (usually referred to as "flowering" or "fruiting" formulations).
My apologies to the lot of you that know this stuff probably a lot better than me, but I felt this was needed here. Feel free to set me straight if I said something really stupid (a real possibility).
|
intelligentlife
Noaidi



Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 2,627
Loc: EU
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: LSoares] 1
#19381110 - 01/07/14 06:31 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
Sorry bad pic, this is easier to see at irl how much diameter increased after strong amount of NPK-ferts I add.
 There is the trichocereus plant I talk about what increased diameter with fertiliers
It looks like it have been exposed to stronger light because of top have got more diameter and more vigorous spines but this have been not exposed to strong light and light doesn't explain the new fat growth.
In fact plant have been constantly in same light environment.
Spines was before strong N-based fertilizer very small and not so strong, after dose of fertilizer and some new fresh soil to this plant, you can see clearly how fertilzing have effect to plant diameter and size of spines.
Now it's very stunted because I have barely water it at all and it's winter. Also this is not my only tricho what starts to grow very nice spines and more diameter after the dose of "cannabis fertilizer" with high N-content.
Some people could be mistaken this new fat growth caused by light but in fact only what change when this plant start to grow more diameter was fertilizer of of high N-content and some new fresh and rich soil add to surface what is later on mixed under the rocky later of pot.
I don't say light amount should be reduced and fertilizers should be used more, but this proof how much trichocereus like nitrogen maybe more than most cacti.. I have managed to have fat growth with less fertilizing for this stronger light but in fact top of the cactus are now fatter and spies are more "harder" not so loose.. Only what have changed is high dose of fertilizers and after that it starts to grow like light amount was increased but in fact only NPK amount was increased very much and highest concentration in the fertilizers was nitrogen.
I was kind of a wait something happens when I give big dose of N, but can't expect so much of new growth what seems it have been caused by stronger light, but as I said, it have grown fat under same light only after I add "more than usual" amount of fertilizers.
For the record, I have fertilizing bottles with NPK: - 4-0-4 - 0-4-8 - 0-17-18 - 5-4-8 - 8-2-4
Most are soil fertilizers and contains some traces of another than NPK, but I'm lazy and don't have time to write what bottle have what nutrients etc.
for lophs I have sometimes give only 0-17-18 fert. Very rarely N. Trichs I give randomly mixed ferts because some fertilizers I have need to be combined. I can add low N liquid and more PK liquid to make good fertilizing. Also sometimes when I add new strong soil to surface and spray it like it dissolves between the rocky surface, it have helped too and mimic natural way to plant have fertilizers because in natural environment, nitrogen will be released from decomposing material died to surface of soil and later on nitrogen from died plants trough decomposition goes for use of living plants..
However, That picture I show, only fertilizing caused the growth what looks it's result of stronger light but it's not. Dose of "cannabis soil vegetative fertilizing" to trichs caused them to grow vigorous spines and more diameter without need to move them to stronger light environment.
Ofc fertilizers+light works together, and best way is to find the balance. Also what I have still find out, spines are more bigger at side where is sun, shady side spines are not so vigorous. But with nitrogen I managed to get plant look like it have been exposed to strong light and that was the point I doesn't think even I know Nitrogen is the main fertilizers for all plants, every plant need it, cactus, cannabis, chili, cucumber, tomato, big trees, etc.. ofc I was aware N was the "main fertilizer" for plants but didn't know to expect so much of healthy nice and new growth.. And I think I give "overdose" to this but plant turned to be more healthier than before.. So from now on, I will fertilize my trihcs over summer with more N, I have not test this for all species I have, lophs I dare to use strong nitrogen, they can manage with small amount of it like in habitat they do.
One source for N I have really think to use chicken poop, the lady who use chicken poop for cactus randomly, her plants looks very healthy! Minus is the smell but she advice me not to throw chicken poop to every pot so smell is not so bad. Bat guano or lime stone in my country are hard to obtain but I have think I buy some limestone from abroad to lophs, even it's not necessary, these plants habitat are in zone where is lots of limestone so I want to try this out.
Have anyone tried to add dolomite to loph soil? does it have any benefit? I have just think to increase pH of loph soil over 7 and use acidic water like they are in habitat.
But what I have seen lophs in mud plains, do these specimes are in contact to limestone? One older man who have grown lophs long time say limestone isn't so necessary to use for lophs. He have cultivated lophs for decades. Still I have think to buy some dolomite powder what I can add to surface of loph soil and let it dissolve to soil. Now I have basically only rocks, pumidice, perlite and some sandy soil around tap root. All lophs are in clay pots because I have find out in my climate narrow clay pot are better for lophs than plastic pot, I have basically lost lophs to rot in plastic pots more often than in clay pots.. I can't offer so hot temperatures to lophs compared to habitat so max drainage are basically thing I need.. Only I have think, I can't know now the pH of soil, I know pH wil effect to plant and how plants use nutrients, also because lophs epidermis are react to soil, maybe more habitat-like soil pH would help to grow and fertilize lophs.
But is it true spraying fertilized water directly to lophophora skin benefit the plants via fertilizing trough epidermis? I read this information from one one the many sites offer information to grow lophophora but there was not any facts for this.
Edited by intelligentlife (01/07/14 07:00 AM)
|
SuperD
Cacti junky


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 6,648
Loc: The bridgesii bridge
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: intelligentlife]
#19381147 - 01/07/14 06:56 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
Police interview? I hope you're not in trouble for anything. What ratio of NPK did you use on that tricho?
--------------------
   D Manoa said: I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), me if you have any for trade
|
intelligentlife
Noaidi



Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 2,627
Loc: EU
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: SuperD]
#19381161 - 01/07/14 07:03 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SuperD said: Police interview? I hope you're not in trouble for anything. What ratio of NPK did you use on that tricho?
Nah it just small thing.
I have not think much of ratio.. Depends what fertilizing bottle I use..
|
modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,224
Loc: Zone 13
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
#19381861 - 01/07/14 11:06 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
So if I understand correctly the bacteria that 'eats' stones is what makes nitrogen available to the cactus. I don't need to worry about adding a source for nitrogen unless I want faster growth, right? I'll probably still add a miniscule amount just to be safe and have that small growth boost.
Thanks for the responses everyone.
psi thought that the nitrogen source would be urine or some other animal waste but considering the locations of these cacti I found it hard to be true.
|
hookahhead
Planeteer



Registered: 01/10/11
Posts: 638
Loc: The Middle of Penns Woods
Last seen: 10 years, 18 days
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
#19381931 - 01/07/14 11:21 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
modern.shaman said: psi thought that the nitrogen source would be urine or some other animal waste but considering the locations of these cacti I found it hard to be true.
Birds, they love rocky places, and cacti fruit. Their excrement is high in nitrogen because both urine and feces are expelled at the same time.
-------------------- "My worm farm" "96 Gallon Worm Tote" "Let Your Freak Flag Fly" "Respect Your Roots" "A KNEW IDEA"
"Nothing New" "Willkommen im EthnoGarten" "Don't Be a Backeberg" "Mites and Mealy Bugs" "The Heart and the Sun"
If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else. Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you. YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE. Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS. Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices “Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard
|
ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: hookahhead]
#19390038 - 01/08/14 07:09 PM (10 years, 22 days ago) |
|
|
I havQuote:
hookahhead said:
Quote:
modern.shaman said: psi thought that the nitrogen source would be urine or some other animal waste but considering the locations of these cacti I found it hard to be true.
Birds, they love rocky places, and cacti fruit. Their excrement is high in nitrogen because both urine and feces are expelled at the same time.
eQuote:
hookahhead said:
Quote:
modern.shaman said: psi thought that the nitrogen source would be urine or some other animal waste but considering the locations of these cacti I found it hard to be true.
Birds, they love rocky places, and cacti fruit. Their excrement is high in nitrogen because both urine and feces are expelled at the same time.
You should see my rock. Bird poop everywhere on it.
Well guys I wasnt aiming at addi g anyything.
So the bacteria shit nitrogen? Did I understand all this correctly?
I remember someone commenting on my cacti pots and the pomegranate leaves that would fall with in. Slow release nitrogen. Everything else will be rock fed.
Am I missing something? 
Btw, I been using that smiley alot.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
|
hookahhead
Planeteer



Registered: 01/10/11
Posts: 638
Loc: The Middle of Penns Woods
Last seen: 10 years, 18 days
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
#19390056 - 01/08/14 07:14 PM (10 years, 22 days ago) |
|
|
The bacteria will hopefully convert the piss, Ammonia NH3, into nitrite NO2- and Nitrate NO3-, which plants will uptake. Nitrite is somewhat disputed as being utilized by plants, but other bacteria convert nitrIte into nitrAte, plants definitely uptake nitrate.
"Better living through science"
-------------------- "My worm farm" "96 Gallon Worm Tote" "Let Your Freak Flag Fly" "Respect Your Roots" "A KNEW IDEA"
"Nothing New" "Willkommen im EthnoGarten" "Don't Be a Backeberg" "Mites and Mealy Bugs" "The Heart and the Sun"
If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else. Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you. YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE. Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS. Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices “Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard
|
theMallacht
Clandestine Hero


Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 3,428
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
#19390058 - 01/08/14 07:15 PM (10 years, 22 days ago) |
|
|
The one you should be using right now is...
--------------------
|
ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: hookahhead]
#19390069 - 01/08/14 07:18 PM (10 years, 22 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
hookahhead said: The bacteria will hopefully convert Ammonia NH3 into nitrite NO2- and Nitrate NO3-, which plants will uptake. Nitrite is somewhat disputed as being utilized by plants, but other bacteria convert nitrIte into nitrAte, plants definitely uptake nitrate.
"Better living through science"
I see. I guess in the wild nitrogen maybe added by fallen leaves. Sounds easy enough. I keep my babies next to a pomegranate tree so nitro will happen slow.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
|
intelligentlife
Noaidi



Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 2,627
Loc: EU
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
#19392608 - 01/09/14 08:07 AM (10 years, 22 days ago) |
|
|
All kind of plant material eating animals, birds, turtles, etc.. Their poop and urine are very good to use for plants and if animal happens to poop above plant, it's good.
I have find picture from erowid where is peyote at texas in the wild habitat and there was animal poop above the peyote.
Also I have heard theory how saguaro spread, some animals like fruits of them, and eat seeds at the same and seeds will come away from animal system trough their poop and it's good moist, fertile base for saguaro cactus seedling. Basically lots of cacti are at place where some animal have poop at some point.. In order if that animal have been eaten fruit of cacti and poop the seeds out.
This was presented in one document what was about all kind of plants and habitats, they talk about saguaro, video from turtles eating dropped saguaro fruits and so on.. Also person who explain what happens said seeds come out with poop and makes very good growing medium for young seedlings.
I have not tested this myself but I know LOTS of different arctic plants what spread seeds by that way, animal eat the fruit and poop out the seeds and make fertile base for seedling. Basically many plants "abuse" the animals offering food for them in order to animals spread their seeds away.
I think lophophora will have it's nutrients from randomly animal poop or urine, and rest comes from fallen foliage or dying plant material via decay process.. In there north soil is very fertile always at spring time because every year all tree foliage and plants die and became later nutrients for plants next year. Summer last there only 3-4months, rest of the time died plants decay under snow and turn back to basic fertilizers for new plants. Always the bottom of foliage layer and plant material keeps going decomposition process year around and snow protect soil and roots of the plants by keeping serious frosts away. Idk how fast decay process happens in area where cacti grow or how much of foliage plant material there are available to let the nature process new fertile soil.
Edited by intelligentlife (01/09/14 08:15 AM)
|
ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: intelligentlife]
#19392769 - 01/09/14 09:15 AM (10 years, 22 days ago) |
|
|
when I first transplanted this little guy to the rock.

I see signs of growth. I bought this little guy years ago and it has only slightly grown. maybe its the rock.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
Edited by ferrel_human (01/09/14 09:15 AM)
|
|