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OfflineLofo
Cacti Love


Registered: 03/01/15
Posts: 36
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #21464943 - 03/27/15 10:29 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

The Ariocarpus seedlings I linked before are from infojardin forum.


--------------------
Join the Stone Age :paradissunsmall:
English isn't my first language, so please excuse any mistakes.


Edited by Lofo (03/31/15 04:45 AM)


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OfflineArgyreia
Grafting cacti is awesome
Male


Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1,100
Loc: France Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 19 days
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: Lofo]
    #21491339 - 04/02/15 08:22 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

I have 6 ariocarpi seedlings around 2-3 weeks old that are doing quite fine in 100% vermiculite but I think the soil isnt compact enough.

I have sowed in a "better soil" : vermiculite, big sand, perlite and lava rocks mixed.
I have 3 strains of ariocarpi, turbinicarpus pseudopectinatus and a shitload of lophophora mixed strains. I'll update if the seedlings do well in these mineral soils !


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Invisibleferrel_human
stone eater
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas Flag
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: Argyreia] * 1
    #21491880 - 04/02/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Try and get a variety of minerals. Some fine some large. But no bigger than 8mm I believe. I haven't checked by try and get as close as possible.


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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OfflineTampaxPearl
Snap chat me that pussy


Registered: 01/03/15
Posts: 287
Loc: Yo girls DM
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
    #21575967 - 04/21/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Ok how about this start guys,

Giberellic acid soak,
Coir, small grain zeolite, bat guano,
Limestone (when mature), glacial rock powder,

Then  " open sesame " fertilizer,


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InvisibleEl Torcho
Time for tea?
I'm a teapot


Registered: 04/16/15
Posts: 1,365
Loc: Lone Pine Hill
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: TampaxPearl]
    #21576067 - 04/21/15 12:06 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Cool thread, and very interesting article. So am I understanding that the bacteria grows on the roots of cactus and then is transferred to seed, and then colonizes the roots again? What about in the case of cuttings?


--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit"
~Dennis McKenna

"There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to."
~His Holiness, The 14th Dalai Lama


Edited by El Torcho (06/30/16 05:03 PM)


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Invisibleferrel_human
stone eater
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas Flag
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: El Torcho]
    #21577981 - 04/21/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

El Torcho said:
Cool thread, and very interesting article. So am I understanding that the bacteria grows on the roots of cactus and then is transferred to seed, and then colonizes the roots again? What about in the case of cuttings?

Would this be a case considered a case of a 'mycorrhizal' relationship, then, even if it doesn't involve fungi?

Mineralization is important for any soil. I add basalt, Azomite, granite, glacial moraine, and silica sands/dusts to any of my soil mixes and the compost pile. I'm only growing trichos now, but I'll keep this in mind if/when I diversify.




I'm leaving this for 3 people to answer. They are pretty much the smartest of the bunch. For karode, Mostly_Harmless, or lsoares.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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Invisibleferrel_human
stone eater
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas Flag
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: TampaxPearl]
    #21577988 - 04/21/15 08:02 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TampaxPearl said:
Ok how about this start guys,

Giberellic acid soak,
Coir, small grain zeolite, bat guano,
Limestone (when mature), glacial rock powder,

Then  " open sesame " fertilizer,




I wouldn't use any organic fertilizer on globulars. That's just me. They pretty much just need rock, is my experience.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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OfflineLSoares
Farmer
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Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 3,209
Loc: Portugal Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: El Torcho]
    #21578889 - 04/22/15 02:06 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

El Torcho said:
Would this be a case considered a case of a 'mycorrhizal' relationship, then, even if it doesn't involve fungi?



Well, technically not a 'mycorrhizal' relationship, but a kind of symbiotic/mutualist relationship akin to the root nodules of the Leguminosae. I admit I haven't looked into the process much, but I believe a lot of similar situations have been described since the first I remember reading that involved, if I'm not mistaken, Pachycereus (or some other big ass cereoid). It makes sense to me that it's a widespread mechanism to deal with the marginal habitats of limestone and gypsum faces that my favoured plants live in.

That said, I still haven't "hit a wall" with growing these plants so I'll stick to a more "conventional" way of supplying in the substrate everything they supposedly require and adjust my husbandry accordingly. But I fantasize of the day I have enough time to try one of those mini-landscape, terrarium-type environment to try and replicate the "natural" places where Strombocactus or Aztekium dwell.


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Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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InvisibleEl Torcho
Time for tea?
I'm a teapot


Registered: 04/16/15
Posts: 1,365
Loc: Lone Pine Hill
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: LSoares]
    #21579386 - 04/22/15 08:01 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

LSoares said:
Well, technically not a 'mycorrhizal' relationship, but a kind of symbiotic/mutualist relationship akin to the root nodules of the Leguminosae. I admit I haven't looked into the process much, but I believe a lot of similar situations have been described since the first I remember reading that involved, if I'm not mistaken, Pachycereus (or some other big ass cereoid). It makes sense to me that it's a widespread mechanism to deal with the marginal habitats of limestone and gypsum faces that my favoured plants live in.





That's what I had rationalized, especially when reading that the bacteria actually lives inside the root structure. Sounds akin to an endo-mycorrhizal relationship, but with bacteria.


Are these bacteria proven to just break down limestone, gypsum, and similar? Has any effect been demonstrated on harder/more durable rock like granite, basalt, etc? Limestone and gypsum are fairly soluble in plain water even.


--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit"
~Dennis McKenna

"There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to."
~His Holiness, The 14th Dalai Lama


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OfflineLSoares
Farmer
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Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 3,209
Loc: Portugal Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: El Torcho]
    #21582789 - 04/23/15 02:30 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

This is the abstract of the paper I mentioned:

"A plant-bacterium association between the giant cardon cactus Pachycereus pringlei and endophytic bacteria help seedlings establish and grow on barren rock. This cactus, together with other desert plants, is responsible for weathering ancient lava flows in the Baja California Peninsula of Mexico. When cardon seeds are inoculated with endophytic bacteria, the seedlings grow in pulverized rock for at least a year without fertilization and without showing distress. The bacteria-plant association released significant amounts of necessary nutrients from the substrate. When endophytic bacteria were eliminated from the seeds by antibiotics, development of seedlings stopped. In complementary experiments of sterile seeds inoculated with the same endophytic bacteria, plant growth was restored. This study and the previous one show that, under extreme environmental conditions, a symbiotic relationship is present between endophytic bacteria and their cactus host."

So, it appears that in this case the bacteria inoculated roots create an environment appropriate for the plant in the immediate surroundings (in recent years it has been proven that the conditions surrounding the plants is desert environments are frequently very different from the "average", so to speak. Plants create their own "micro-habitat"), and that is enough to allow them to thrive and eventually break down lava rock. Limestone and gypsum, being a lot less hard and being more prone to attacks by chemicals, are probably even easier to break down.


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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OfflineLSoares
Farmer
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Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 3,209
Loc: Portugal Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: LSoares]
    #21582799 - 04/23/15 02:41 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

And here's the abstract to another paper by the same main author:

"A plant–bacterium association of the cardon cactus (Pachycereus pringlei) and endophytic bacteria promotes establishment of seedlings and growth on igneous rocks without soil. These bacteria weather several rock types and minerals, unbind significant amounts of useful minerals for plants from the rocks, fix in vitro N2, produce volatile and non-volatile organic acids, and reduce rock particle size to form mineral soil. This study revealed the presence of large populations of culturable endophytic bacteria inside the seeds extracted from wild plants, from seeds extracted from the guano of bats feeding on cactus fruit, in seedlings growing from these seeds, in the pulp of fruit, and in small, mature wild plants, and are comparable in size to populations of endophytic populations in some agricultural crops. The dominant culturable endophytes were isolates of the genera Bacillus spp., Klebsiella spp., Staphylococcus spp., and Pseudomonas spp. Based on partial sequencing of the 16s rRNA gene, the isolated strains had low similarity to known strains in these genera. However, these strains have higher molecular similarity among endophytes obtained from seeds, endophytes from roots, and some bacterial strains from the rhizoplane. Seedlings developed from seeds with endophytes contain the similar species of endophytes in their shoots, possibly derived from the seeds. This study shows the involvement of endophytic bacteria in rock weathering by cacti in a hot, subtropical desert and their possible contribution to primary  colonization of barren rock. This study proposes that cacti capable of acquiring diverse populations of endophytes may give them an evolutionary advantage to gain a foothold on highly uncompromising terrain."


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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Invisibleferrel_human
stone eater
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas Flag
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: LSoares] * 1
    #21583353 - 04/23/15 07:55 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

One thing I have never seen is seedlings in the wild. It's all pictures of mature plants in the wild.

Because me personally I have done experiments where I will purposely leave some seedlings in simulated wild situations. E.g. no water and slightly shaded. Uncovered And they live. I water them. They plump up and are super small. I still have some of those today. Not many because only the strong survive but it goes to show you how cacti evolved to live in such hostile environments.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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OfflineLSoares
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Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 3,209
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
    #21583555 - 04/23/15 08:14 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

There's a lot to consider in here. There are abundant photographic evidence (for me that can't go there...) of Lophophora and some Ariocarpus species growing happily in mudflats, an habitat that is, as far as water is concerned, quite the opposite to the rocky faces you find Aztekium or Strombocactus growing on. There's no recipe, no one-size-fits-all. You can go the long road and try to emulate the environment of each and every one of the species you grow, or you can take the shortcuts, realize the conditions that will make your plants happy and live with that.

For one thing, it is often a misconception that cacti like the harsh conditions they live in. It is often more a case of them filling a niche no or few other plants can occupy. If they could compete for, say, radiation or nutrients with herbs or shrubs, they would. But that is apparently not the case, not with them growing so slow and low...


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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Invisibleferrel_human
stone eater
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas Flag
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: LSoares]
    #21583645 - 04/23/15 08:20 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

LSoares said:
There's a lot to consider in here. There are abundant photographic evidence (for me that can't go there...) of Lophophora and some Ariocarpus species growing happily in mudflats, an habitat that is, as far as water is concerned, quite the opposite to the rocky faces you find Aztekium or Strombocactus growing on. There's no recipe, no one-size-fits-all. You can go the long road and try to emulate the environment of each and every one of the species you grow, or you can take the shortcuts, realize the conditions that will make your plants happy and live with that.

For one thing, it is often a misconception that cacti like the harsh conditions they live in. It is often more a case of them filling a niche no or few other plants can occupy. If they could compete for, say, radiation or nutrients with herbs or shrubs, they would. But that is apparently not the case, not with them growing so slow and low...




I just went that extra step to ensure my cacti are never bloated and over fed because if you haven't learned something about me yet it's that I hate bloated cacti. I hate them. And when I see pics of cacti in habitat and are all burned and ugly and flat, well that's a turn on for me. Except for my grafts. That's just a given they are gonna get fat and water bloated.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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InvisibleEl Torcho
Time for tea?
I'm a teapot


Registered: 04/16/15
Posts: 1,365
Loc: Lone Pine Hill
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: LSoares]
    #21584472 - 04/23/15 09:16 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

LSoares said:
This is the abstract of the paper I mentioned:





Quote:

LSoares said:
And here's the abstract to another paper by the same main author:





Fucking awesome!! I love mother nature.

:mindblown:

Soil from my cactus pots and soil/duff from cactus in the wild will be added to my compost piles and potted plants!


--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit"
~Dennis McKenna

"There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to."
~His Holiness, The 14th Dalai Lama


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Invisible5is
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Registered: 03/13/12
Posts: 1,451
Loc: USA Flag
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: El Torcho] * 1
    #21590147 - 04/24/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)



Seedlings in Jim Hogg County,Texas.


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Invisibleferrel_human
stone eater
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas Flag
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: 5is]
    #21590770 - 04/24/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

5is said:


Seedlings in Jim Hogg County,Texas.




First time for me seeing this one. :awethumb:


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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Offlinekactus.brand.g
Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 6,886
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
    #21590867 - 04/24/15 02:40 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.cactusconservation.org/CCI/cp/oc/youth.html

Click on the links too ferrel more great stuff:thumbup:


Edited by kactus.brand.g (04/24/15 02:41 PM)


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Invisibleferrel_human
stone eater
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas Flag
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: kactus.brand.g]
    #21591011 - 04/24/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

My little experiment.



--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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InvisibleEl Torcho
Time for tea?
I'm a teapot


Registered: 04/16/15
Posts: 1,365
Loc: Lone Pine Hill
Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
    #21594153 - 04/25/15 08:42 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Nice. I was out walking yesterday and got some pics of some rock cacti. I can't tell if they are growing in the rock actually, or the dirt under it, but I'll post pics sooner or later.


--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit"
~Dennis McKenna

"There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to."
~His Holiness, The 14th Dalai Lama


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