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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
    #19282489 - 12/16/13 05:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You know, you can shut me up really easily by simply answering my question. How does society force someone to do something they absolutely will not do? It would take a lot less time and effort to answer than to write all that irrelevant crap you've been writing.

Why, pray tell, won't you answer unless you know there is no answer and I've painted you into a corner your ego won't allow you to acknowledge?





I think you're both pretty invested in the topic.  :popcorn:

And since this thread is now officially derailed by a moderator I'm going to  put in my two cents.

No one, not harming another/s should be forced to deal with their problems once they are of age.  All bets are off however if they are harming others.  Having said that we as a society are obliged to offer them no enabling of their problems either. If they want to die in the gutter then so be it.  However if we really were to offer some compassionate help as a society it's likely more than a few would avail themselves of it.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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OfflinePhred
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19282520 - 12/16/13 05:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
There are plenty of ways.  People are civilly committed every day in this country without anyone pulling a gun.



Only because everyone knows that if the person being committed refuses to go, ultimately the guns will appear.

What do you think happens in real life, Enlil? You think that if you barricade yourself in your apartment and spring a series of ingenious non-lethal "Home Alone" booby traps on them the Sheriff's boys will eventually shake their heads in admiration at your plucky resistance and walk away, never to return? 

Quote:

The threat of deadly force is antithetical to the goal of helping someone.



The threat of deadly force is required to get people to do things they really really don't want to do.



Phred


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19282533 - 12/16/13 05:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

My position has always been that forced treatment would be morally permissible if:

1. It had a good chance of being effective, and
2. It was necessary - Meaning that the person has become addicted to the point where they are no longer able to make rational decisions about their own well-being.

This is no different than the current civil commitment process by which severely mentally ill people are protected from themselves.  The fact is that certain conditions attack a human in ways that make it difficult or impossible for them to exercise their free will anymore.  Addiction, in extreme cases, can be one of those conditions.

Diploid has turned that into an endorsement for busting down people's doors and dragging them off to rehab at gunpoint.  That is never something I advocated.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Phred]
    #19282558 - 12/16/13 05:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The threat of deadly force is required to get people to do things they really really don't want to do.




People can be overpowered by force and taken places they don't want to go, without anyone having a gun.  It happens all the time.  Mental hospitals have been using the "outnumber and overpower" technique for many years.  Threat of deadly force is neither necessary nor effective at ensuring compliance by a person who is that far gone.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19282723 - 12/16/13 07:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

This is no different than the current civil commitment process by which severely mentally ill people are protected from themselves.

Well I'm going to give you that is a valid point and supports your position.
Of course this opens up the huge problem of civil abuse of peoples rights.  I'm of the opinion that in the real fucked up world it would be better to let some people fall then take the risk of govt. using this power to force people into behaviors they don't want to make that are not against the law or harmful to others but benefit certain peoples moral agendas about people's behaviors. 

I believe your motivations for your beliefs are benign and I certainly don't think they are malicious as others here seem to but I think there is just too much chance for things to go badly in this regard.

It's certainly a sad state of affairs because drug addiction is one ugly situation for those hopelessly addicted.  In nature the weak fall prey and maybe there are times when we should follow that dictate so that other freedoms are protected.

An interesting topic for sure.  I have to deal with addictions problems myself so I know the drill to some extent.  It's no joke.  In fact it's a rock and hard place deal imo.  Many feel that their culture and opportunities for a good life is so restrictive they turn to drugs for solace so there is not much one can offer an addict if they  try to quit and from my experience if you don't have something to replace an addiction it's not going to stick.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19282739 - 12/16/13 08:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

People can be overpowered by force and taken

Not if they barricade themselves and put up a fight. If someone came to take me to drug treatment because I use a substanance you find morally objectionable, you can bet your last penny that they will take me out in a body bag. I will shoot or whatever else it takes to make them back off if they try to bust down my door to "outnumber/overpower" me. Many people feel this way and the harder this absurd drug war is pushed on people minding their own business by our out-of-control government, the more entrenched this attitude becomes.

Moronic, self-righteous, I-will-save-you attitudes like this are one of the reasons we are breeding domestic terrorism.

at ensuring compliance by a person who is that far gone.

Fuck anyone who thinks they have the right to "fix" another they don't agree with. If I want to shoot up heroin, drink bleach, shove dildos up my ass, or anything else in the privacy of my home that harms no one, neither you nor anyone else has the right to tell me that I am "far gone" and need involuntary saving.

Look around you. The drug war doesn't work. It has cost us billions and counting. If you don't like drugs, don't use drugs. Leave those who don't agree with you alone. This is retardedly simple.

Threat of deadly force is neither necessary nor effective

What is neither necessary nor effective is the forced treatment of someone who doesn't want it. As I've told you many times, the first rule of drug treatment is that the treated must WANT to stop. If they're happy with their life, whether you find that life abhorrent or not, it's THEIR GOD DAMNED LIFE to nurture or abuse as they see fit.

You are not my nanny and neither is the government.

And yeah, the thread is derailed, but since I'm the OP, have at it.


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19282763 - 12/16/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that government is not the best place for such issues to be decided, and I also agree that there is a strong potential for abuse.  This is why I haven't gone so far as advocating government compelled treatment...I simply haven't ruled out the possibility.

Frankly, I don't know if it's possible to create a system with enough checks and balances to address those who truly need the help and are unable to choose it for themselves, while still protecting one's right to autonomy.  It's a tricky situation, for sure.  I am open, however, to the possibility that such a system could be put in place.

In any case, the system we have now isn't solving the societal problem of drug abuse and addiction, and it's long past the time when we just admit that and try something radically different.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19282768 - 12/16/13 08:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think you're both pretty invested in the topic.I think you're both pretty invested in the topic.

Fuck yes I have a vested interest in this position. Being locked up by a tyrannical government bent on dictating my private behavior is my overriding daily concern. Every fucking day I live in fear that someone with Enlil's attitude will land me in a government cage with rapists fucking me in the ass and murderers attacking me as a mater of daily life (or in residential treatment with bars on the windows which is the same thing in my book) because I have an illegal plant in my pocket. As a fellow drug user, you should be as concerned about this as I am.

I will shoot back and die if necessary before I will allow that and fortunately I live in a country where otherwise law-abiding citizens are still allowed to carry guns.

Our founding fathers were visionaries far ahead of their time when they wrote the 2nd.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19282789 - 12/16/13 08:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know if it's possible to create a system with enough checks and balances to address those who truly need the help and are unable to choose it for themselves

Who are you or anyone else to decide this of someone who has harmed no one? This same argument might have been used 100 years ago to commit homosexuals who "truly need the help". It was used to justify imprisoning alcoholics during prohibition. It is used to justify locking up prostitutes today.

Hell, you are even on the record in favor of forced drug treatment of addicts to nicotine and alcohol.

WTF? I mean W-T-F?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
    #19282930 - 12/16/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I think you're both pretty invested in the topic.I think you're both pretty invested in the topic.

Fuck yes I'm in vested in this position. Being locked up by a tyrannical government bent on dictating my private behavior is my overriding daily concern. Every fucking day I live in fear that someone with Enlil's attitude will land me in a government cage with rapists fucking me in the ass and murderers attacking me as a mater of daily life (or in residential treatment which is just as bad in my book) because I have an illegal plant in my pocket. As a fellow drug user, you should be as concerned about this as I am.

I will shoot back and die if necessary before I will allow that and fortunately I live in a country where otherwise law-abiding citizens are still allowed to carry guns.

Our founding fathers were visionaries far ahead of their time when they wrote the 2nd.







:lol:
I agree. As I stated the potential for abuse of power is too great to put such a program into effect due to the immaturity and dishonestly of those in power positions.  Even then I think free will to wreak your life should be a right of all of us drug addicts as long as we don't hurt others directly.

At my age however my overriding concern has to do with the ease of my bowel movements. :sad:  Now where did I put those fucking prunes? :mad2:  Anybody fucking me up the ass isn't going to be happy with the result.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19282966 - 12/16/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Even then I think free will to wreak your life should be a right of all of us drug addicts as long as we don't hurt others directly.




Free will is where the problem comes in, though.  In many cases, addiction can trump free will.  While the argument can be made that choosing to use in the first place was an exercise of free will, it's a bit of a stretch to argue that people willingly chose to become addicted to the point where they relinquish all free will.

For me, that's the key point...when addiction is so extreme that it overrides one's ability to rationally choose anymore, then there isn't any free will at play.  That addict is already a slave, and it's absurd to pretend that continuing to feed that addiction is an expression of his/her autonomy.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19282990 - 12/16/13 09:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

This could be applied to so many things mental that you could lock up people for just about anything and find a way to justify it. What a slippery slope you would be having us traveling.  While I agree that humans may for many reasons lose their ability to exercise anything that I might call free choice I don't in any way consider that the job of the govt.  It's way too fucking prone to abuse. 

I'm going to have to go with Diploid on this one.  I think your position doesn't make sense with what you and I both know about humanity in the real world.  Sometimes it's going to be the greater good to let some people fail.

I agree much of what we are doing isn't working but this would not be my fix.  I think Nancy Reagan failed us. :lol:

The fix is likely in the home and our educational system.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19283012 - 12/16/13 09:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You're entitled to your opinion.  For me, I have seen far too many people lose all sense of humanity because of addiction.  If there was a method to pull them from that place, I'd be all for it.  Every system can be abused, but that's not a reason to throw one's hands up and give up.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19283028 - 12/16/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Who's giving up? I'm saying we have to try another direction.  The direction you would have us go would be unfortunately a disaster imo.  I just don't trust the intentions of those in power and with good reason.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19283074 - 12/16/13 10:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What direction would I have you go, exactly?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19283133 - 12/16/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Like I said work in  education and then providing easy access opportunities that are safe for those who want to voluntarily stop use.  I'm guessing that most have at least tried to quit several times but found any societal help to be a messed up poorly funded and supervised non starter and they couldn't make it on their own. 

Of course imo none of this is going to happen.  This culture is too fucked up around these issues to deal honestly with them.  And like I said you have to offer the addict something to replace the addiction with in the form of a better life.  Jailing won't do that and just helping them kick won't do it. 

Maybe we will just need to face the facts of life here and admit that like war and other ugly shit humanity overall is not at a place to deal with these issues in a healthy manner.

Hell I need my Kratom to get through my days and most people would say I have it made and why should I need an opiate type fix to feel good.  But the fact is that life is much more doable for me when I can get high for part of each day.  I'm smart enough to get hooked on a legal and fairly benign, as far as kicking, drug.  Still I recently tried to go cold turkey and couldn't do it.  I have managed to cut back though.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19283138 - 12/16/13 10:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You said, "The direction you would have us go would be unfortunately a disaster imo"

So what direction would I have you go?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19283268 - 12/16/13 10:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You're entitled to your opinion.

This is disingenuous. If you believed this, you would not insist that drug users whose opinion differs from yours should be forcibly treated. Especially when they have harmed no one and can lucidly and clearly articulate that they are satisfied with their life of drug use and want to be left alone.

I have seen far too many people lose all sense of humanity because of addiction.

So what? You are not their nanny and adults have a right to make stoopid decisions. JEZUS! What is it going to take to get that through your head?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19283437 - 12/16/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:People can be overpowered by force and taken places they don't want to go, without anyone having a gun.



Some people, in some situations. That is insufficient. In order to enforce prohibition the authorities have to be willing to do whatever it takes regardless of the situation. This necessarily means there will be situations where the guns come out. Stop trying to weasel around this undeniable fact. It makes you look absurd.

Quote:

Mental hospitals have been using the "outnumber and overpower" technique for many years.



The trick isn't figuring out how best to herd them once they have been incarcerated in an asylum, the trick is how to get them into the asylum in the first place.

Quote:

Threat of deadly force is neither necessary nor effective at ensuring compliance by a person who is that far gone.



Now you're just being ridiculous. The credible threat of deadly force is ultimately the very foundation of all enforcement of all laws. It is both necessary and effective.


Phred


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Phred]
    #19283485 - 12/16/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Who's talking about enforcing prohibition other than you and diploid?  I'm talking about using forced treatment of an illness in the most extreme of cases....nothing about enforcing prohibition at all.  I'm not even advocating that we do it.  I'm just saying I wouldn't be morally opposed to it if it were proven necessary and effective...and we could work out adequate checks and balances


I don't know what dream world you live in, but in my experience, someone who is addicted to the point I'm talking about doesn't give a rats ass about death, and couldn't care less if someone threatened him/her with deadly force.


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Edited by Enlil (12/16/13 12:14 PM)


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