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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1925188 - 09/17/03 03:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

While I thank you for the "sources", I must not have made myself clear.

Reputable sources please. Not sources with an agenda, from either side. Those were hardly what I'd call impartial sources.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1925227 - 09/17/03 03:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

From your link....

"Over the past 500 years, human actitivies are known to have made 816 species extinct in the wild, although the true number is thought to be far higher."

Ok, a little math. The claim is 200 per day. This site says 816 in 500 years.

500 years = 182500 days.

182500 days X 200 claimed per day is 36,500,00 species.

To look at it another way.....

816 species divided by 500 years = 1.632 species per year.

Now, how many of those would have died off anyway? How many were attributed to human activities, but incorrectly? How many were hunted to extinction by third worlders? How many by pollution from western nations?

Frankly, to those who make such claims, get your heads out of your asses and come up for air. The lack of oxygen has obviously made you stupid. You do your "side" no favors when you make such obviously stupid claims.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1925247 - 09/17/03 03:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Further....

"The total number of endangered animals and plants now stands at 11,046. "

11,046. divided by 365 days = 30 per day.

200 per day...    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinedomite
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1925383 - 09/17/03 04:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

unlikelyhero said:
Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Incorrect. Virtually no other species controls its own population -- instead their numbers are decided by predation and/or environmental parameters. The same is true of Homo sapiens sapiens.

Don't worry about it.

pinky   



nuclear war?  mass famine?
 




possibly desease as well... there are all kinds of possible ways.

Keep shining! :sun: 


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1926169 - 09/17/03 08:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Further....

"The total number of endangered animals and plants now stands at 11,046. "

11,046. divided by 365 days = 30 per day.

200 per day...    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 



I was just putting anything interesting that I found about it, not just links that supported my own opinion.  Here are some interesting links on the subject:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1999-08/XIBC-Wbbe-020899.php - World's biodiversity becoming extinct at levels rivaling Earth's past 'mass extinctions'
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/2/l_032_04.html - The Current Mass Extinction
http://millennium-debate.org/ind5mar5.htm - an article for the Independent, has statistics about extinction.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/08/23/green.century.mass.extinction/index.html - Scientists agree world faces mass extinction
http://www.gristmagazine.com/grist/books/wilson121201.asp - an article by E.O. Wilson, criticising the Skeptical Environmentalist by Lomborg.  He's a Professor of Harvard and he's the one who came up with the 200 species a day theory.
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/archive/page.cfm?pageID=393 - Biodiversity Baloney: Some Popular Myths Undone
http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/univ/annualreport/1998-9/d.html - cambridge university report
I think they suitably support the view that the current extinction rates are, in the majority, due to human activity.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1926363 - 09/17/03 09:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Many of the beliefs of anti-environmentalist, such as Shatka (sorry if the language is too strong. I don't really know what word to use), have been fueled by Lomborg's The Skeptical Environmentalist. Time for some background. First of all, the science used in the book is sceptical because it is outside of Lomborg's field. Lomborg was a prof in the political sciencecs department at Cambridge University. His book was also published through the political sciences department. Lomborg is not an expert in biology, but he accounts for this with a massive list of references (almost half of the book). However, Lomborg was notorious for taking quotes out of context and completely altering the original meaning.

Unlikelyhero has a good link about this stuff.
But another really good one about Lomborg can be found at

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?article...r=1&catID=2

This essay is well worth reading even if you havn't read Lomborg's book. I suggest that anybody who is interested in the environment read this essay.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: clam_dude]
    #1926370 - 09/17/03 09:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Also, it may be that we do not have to worry about the environment. I just don't want to find out.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Anonymous

Re: Over-population of the world [Re: shakta]
    #1926382 - 09/17/03 09:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

have you read 'the skeptical environmentalist'?


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Anonymous

Re: Over-population of the world [Re: clam_dude]
    #1926399 - 09/17/03 09:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i don't think we need to worry about it too much. in it's billions of years of existance, the earth has been pummelled by meteors. it's been completely frozen over. it has had several generations of completely different lifeforms, and complete rearranging of its land masses...

i think it can handle the activities of some of the life forms living on its surface for a few hunded years.

i just hope it doesn't get ugly. i think that technology can solve the problems it causes, and that humans can live in harmony as a part of the ecosystem, while still maintaining a decent quality of life. right now is a dirty time.... we're still learning. i believe there's less pollution now than there was 40 years ago.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: ]
    #1926418 - 09/17/03 09:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The earth may survive, but that doesn't mean we will. Sure, if the sky becomes overpolluted the earth will be able to renew itself and some lifeforms will adapt, but some will die off, and that might include us. I mean, sure the earth survived a huge meteor hitting it, but ask the dinosaurs how that turned out for them.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Over-population of the world [Re: silversoul7]
    #1926467 - 09/17/03 09:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i'm more concerned about the ecosystem as a whole than a small part of it called humans.

i wonder what life on earth will look like a hundred million years from now?


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: ]
    #1926472 - 09/17/03 09:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I have not read the entire book, but have read many important sections and understand Lomborg's position. The truth is that most scientests and biologists, specifically, claim that Lomborg has based his book on poor science.

I believe that life will prevail no matter how much we ruin the environment. You are right. None of the things that you mentioned in the first paragraph will kill off all life on earth. What I am talking about though is human life specifically and those things will kill of human beings. You are right that air pollution levels are decreasing, but due to the pollution that is already in the air, the overall levels are increasing. For example, the hole in the ozone layer is getting larger because we are still putting more pollution in the air. But more importantly, air pollution is only one part of the problem.

I too believe that technology may solve the problem, but it might not. There is no way to predict the future. When we assume that we will always have plenty of natural resources, this is when we will run out of them. To create technology that will solve the problem will require a conscious effort to do so. Lomborg does not seem to think that we need to put in the effort.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: clam_dude]
    #1926801 - 09/17/03 11:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I am not an anti-enviromentalist. I just hate enviro-Nazis that say I can't walk through the woods because I might scare an animal and cause it mental anquish. I also hate groups like Greenpeace that have become purely political and don't even care about the science of it anymore. Greenpeace used to be a great organization, now it is full of wackos. Of course you could say the same thing about the ACLU I guess.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: shakta]
    #1926841 - 09/17/03 11:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I dont think anybody is saying you can't walk through the woods. The problem is urban sprawl and that sort of thing


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: clam_dude]
    #1926951 - 09/18/03 12:21 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I know what the problem is. Some of these extremists enviromentalists do think like that though. They want to close down all the land so we can't even enjoy our own land. Remember that we all own federal lands, and we should protect our rights to enjoy it. That is my biggest complaint against Lieberman.


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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: clam_dude]
    #1927300 - 09/18/03 01:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:

I believe that life will prevail no matter how much we ruin the environment. You are right. None of the things that you mentioned in the first paragraph will kill off all life on earth.




this is why "enviromentalism" is bullshit. So called enviromentalism is usaully one of two things.

1) consideration for the humans that are coming after us

2) Idiots imposing human morals onto all forms of life on earth


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: shakta]
    #1928099 - 09/18/03 06:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
I know what the problem is. Some of these extremists enviromentalists do think like that though. They want to close down all the land so we can't even enjoy our own land. Remember that we all own federal lands, and we should protect our rights to enjoy it. That is my biggest complaint against Lieberman.



Find me one group that says we shouldn't walk through woods. Any environmentalist who thinks that is fucking dumb considering that most humans who do live what you could call 'natural-style' (e.g. indigenous tribes) live in forests and places like that - in line with the ecosystem.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: domite]
    #1928132 - 09/18/03 07:06 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

domite said:
Quote:

clam_dude said:

I believe that life will prevail no matter how much we ruin the environment. You are right. None of the things that you mentioned in the first paragraph will kill off all life on earth.




this is why "enviromentalism" is bullshit. So called enviromentalism is usaully one of two things.

1) consideration for the humans that are coming after us

2) Idiots imposing human morals onto all forms of life on earth



I understand what you're saying. It is all part of the arrogance of humanity and the world will keep spinning long after we've gone. However, you can't just pigeon-hole environmentalists into two sides - I don't think, anywhere near 'most' environmentalists are like what you say, even if a lot are.
A lot of religions help support up the theory that we are the most important species. It's like when science discovered that earth wasn't in the center of the universe, this was probably difficult for many people to take - wasn't this whole thing made for us? If not why are we more important - our intelligence? Or is our conscience an evolutionary step in response to our environment - was it necessary for our species to evolve this way in order for us to survive? In the same way that we have a conscience, we DON'T have characteristics that other animals possess - making a web like a spider, running the speed of a cheetah, flying like an eagle, swimming like a dolphin. Sure, we can almost mimic these things witht he aid of machinery but not with our own bodies.
I just think it's a shame that most of our species can't live in harmony with the ecosystems. It is true that eventually the world would be wiped out naturally anyway, whether it is volcanoes continually releasing gases or the sun turning supernova - but why do we have to speed up the process? And why do we have to bring along other species with us? We're the ones who've fucked it up. These two articles show how our activities affect life on earth if you believe the earth can sustain us:
http://millennium-debate.org/ind5mar5.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/08/23/green.century.mass.extinction/index.html
The whole global warming debate bugs me too - even on the slim chance it isn't caused by the amount of gases we release into the atmosphere everyday - does that mean they have no effect and we should do nothing? Surely it has some sort of detrimental effect on our health if it can cause something such as acid rain that can eat away at statues!

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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