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InvisibleP-O
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Crystal G]
    #19279035 - 12/15/13 11:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I got a baby on the way...


i think im gonna use "time outs" instead of spanking..... punishments will be like 10mins in corner, on a chair WITH A BOOK .




I wouldnt spank a child but id spank crystal G :crazy2:


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Uzziel]
    #19279045 - 12/15/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Mescalean said:
Oh I've been reading it believe me, you've been making a poor arguement. And I guarentee "murder fantasies" of your parents stems from some other psychological problem other then just "hitting".




How is it a poor argument? You're pro-family violence, which I can clearly see is a way to console yourself and act apologetic for the way that you were raised. By convincing yourself it was okay, you can come to terms with it and feel at ease about the way you were raised.

However, you did turn out a heroin addict. You and I are the classic examples of why beating your kids produces children who are abnormal.





then explain the other 200 million people that were spanked and didnt

let's stop making excuses for ourselves and start accepting that these things are our own doing




America actually has the highest violent crime and murder rates out of any 1st world civilization. You're not making a very good argument here if you're going to claim that so and so doesn't cause violence.


Quote:

Uzziel said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:

So according to you children have the ability to rationally think, yet they won't listen to reason... yet they are supposed to understand that you are hitting them for good reasons?




You're changing my words. I said as humans we CAN rationally think. I never said a 3 year old child is going to demonstrate sound logic, it takes development to do that. :rolleyes:

By age 10 I was very rational and knew right from wrong. There are 10 year olds out there that know right from wrong but are stubborn and do the wrong thing anyway.

A 10 year old can understand if they are doing the wrong thing and why they got hit for doing it.




And according to this 90% of parents spank 3 year olds 3-4 times a week, I'd like to know exactly what a 3 year old can do that entitles to that much spanking: http://books.google.com/books?id=IsLjfGpE2MUC&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=boston+globe+90+percent+spanking&source=bl&ots=DI7V8pZ-7k&sig=1tOTA14I9XTXjpq_6fPcpKTfzCQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tvqtUqCYCM7coATouYGoAw&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=boston%20globe%2090%20percent%20spanking&f=false


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OfflineMescalean
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Registered: 01/18/12
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Crystal G]
    #19279052 - 12/15/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Mescalean said:
Oh I've been reading it believe me, you've been making a poor arguement. And I guarentee "murder fantasies" of your parents stems from some other psychological problem other then just "hitting".




How is it a poor argument? You're pro-family violence, which I can clearly see is a way to console yourself and act apologetic for the way that you were raised. By convincing yourself it was okay, you can come to terms with it and feel at ease about the way you were raised.

However, you did turn out a heroin addict. You and I are the classic examples of why beating your kids produces children who are abnormal.



Quote:

Normal children don't fantasize about going amityville on ma and pa.




Yes. Because normal children don't endure excessive abuse.





So your psychological evaluation of me is my addictiong was because of child hood abuse?

Not because of depression/ anxiety or using in times of mental distress because I couldn't cope normally. There was also an extremely toxic opiate fueled relationship.

I still doubt for some reason that eating OC 80's out of a greek girls asshole was induced because of my parents, more so because it was fun.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Mescalean]
    #19279071 - 12/15/13 12:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mescalean said:
So your psychological evaluation of me is my addictiong was because of child hood abuse?

Not because of depression/ anxiety or using in times of mental distress because I couldn't cope normally. There was also an extremely toxic opiate fueled relationship.




Wait a fucking second. We have provided sources stating that children who endure abuse have higher rates of mental illness, including depression and anxiety, and inability to cope effectively. Yet you claim to have been beaten very badly by your father in another thread, and don't believe that any of your mental disturbances were caused by this?

Again, this thread is not at all about sensitivity. It is about studying and reporting long-term effects of hitting children. All the things you just described ARE caused by abuse.

Quote:

I still doubt for some reason that eating OC 80's out of a greek girls asshole




Was it hairy? Was it like eating out of a fur coat?


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OfflineKonichiwaffle
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Uzziel]
    #19279081 - 12/15/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

There are tons of people in this thread who have said to have been hit and are normal people, so no, it isn't JUST me you are just ignoring everything in this thread.




Like I said, no one can verify their self-evaluative claims, so it does not matter too much what they want to say about themselves.  You might think you're perfectly normal in the way you handle conflict, other people who personally know you might say otherwise.  It's not very sound evidence if we are to argue this on a general level.

Quote:

Even a kid can understand why he/she got spanked. Do you really need me to start posting videos of shitty little kids that need to get their ass whooped?


 

I think the problem more stems when it is realized that physical discipline does not work %100, a parent will escalate the method until it does.  It is not a good solution in resolving the overall issue with your child.  Getting your "ass whooped" does not teach the child why their behavior is in error.  What it really teaches the child is that if you do X, Y will be the result, if you get caught. 

Quote:

When a parent tells the kid NO multiple times and the kid won't listen to reason or other forms of punishment... it calls for extra measures. Especially if the kid gets violent in the first place.




I would strongly emphasize those Molyneux videos, in this respect.  It might seem like I'm copping out of this argument, but please, they are worth the time.  Even if you strongly oppose my thoughts on the matter, it'll only serve you better to understand the opposing side of the argument in order to form a strong rebuttal.  In my opinion, he has some of the best points on the subject matter in which I would give no justice toward if I tried to spell it out myself. 

However, I will say this.  A great percentage of parents believe their children are their property.  To me, that's the wrong way to think about disciplinary measures.  "NO means NO!"  Well, why?  "Because I said so!"  Children are people too; and like I said before, they soak everything up like a sponge.  I do believe it to be your responsibility as a parent to spell out everything you possibly can to your children.  Physical disciplinary action is a lazy approach because there is no useful lesson intact.  It's basically the equivalent of throwing a man in jail for a drug addiction.  You're telling them the same thing.  Why should I stop using drugs?  "Because you'll be thrown in jail". 

Again, nothing is resolved, and the conclusion for the child is "how do I not get caught next time?".     

Quote:

You act like children are little angels or some shit. Do I really need to post videos of shitty little kids?




I would much rather you post studies and statistics to support how physical disciplinary actions beget positive results for the child's future mental stability.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Crystal G]
    #19279083 - 12/15/13 12:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
And according to this 90% of parents spank 3 year olds 3-4 times a week, I'd like to know exactly what a 3 year old can do that entitles to that much spanking





Jealous? :naughty:


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InvisibleSet
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Crystal G]
    #19279088 - 12/15/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Set said:
I was a really well behaved kid, too.  I asked my parents a few years ago why they did those things and they vehemently denied both hitting/spanking me as well as washing myself out with soap.  :wtf:

Wonder why I was on Prozac by age 9.




My parents did the same thing. Denied all allegations of abuse and hitting. My fantasies of murder come back whenever they deny it ever happened. I actually grew up formulating plans on how to become the best serial killer.

Looking back on it, I wish I had done it and just gone through with it. But I should have done it at like age 9, so that I could be forgiven and re-introduced back to society as an adult. Damn the fact that I wasn't aware of how law worked at that age.



It's "frustrating", right?

I tended to inflict all of my rage inwards.  I was too afraid to act out, or I'd fuck up my parents' expectations even more.  Still dealing with absolutely hating myself to this day.


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OfflineMescalean
Burke is love, burke is life.


Registered: 01/18/12
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Crystal G]
    #19279090 - 12/15/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Meow meow meow okay maybe I'm not the best example.

And no, she shaved it apparently. I never noticed the difference, all I could think was "how the fuck do you shave your asshole???"


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OfflineKonichiwaffle
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Mescalean]
    #19279105 - 12/15/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Why is a world where everyone is so sensitive deemed as the best end game? I just want to know who made this the status quo.





Deemed as the best end game?  Who said that was the case?

I am very black or white when it comes to studies and statistics.  If the evidence points very strongly to something, than there is a strong percentage of it being the case.

Maybe an overly sensitive world is a side effect of an evolving scientific world, sure.  However, it in no way justifies the two working hand-in-hand. 

I am to assume by "overly sensitive" you mean "paranoia" as a synonym, perhaps?  If this is the case, paranoia is often times related to pseudo science.


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Invisiblethoughts
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Mescalean]
    #19279107 - 12/15/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Personally, i think you should only hit someone if they're a threat to your life and you need to defend yourself.
This actually goes for all creatures.

Do you beat your dog if he shits on your floor, for example?
No. Because that's animal abuse.

So why the fuck would a parent find it ok to strike their child for writing on the wall, for example. Or whatever example you wanna use to justify hitting a kid.
Do you also strike your friends and family when they disrespect you or act out of line?
How about someone else's kids?
Do you hit someone else's kids when they act out of line?
I don't think so.

So why would you strike your own child, someone who you claim to love with all your heart and soul?
Is striking your child the only option there is?


Perhaps it's the easiest, quickest method. Does that make it right?


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #19279110 - 12/15/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

tymoteusz3 said:
Studies show it's harmful, so I don't think it's right at all.




IMO this depends on the motive, like Stillnox said most of the time I've seen it personally the motive was for the parent to vent - not teaching the child. On the other hand I've seen light physical punishment used to effectively deter unwanted behavior.

As far as it goes many great men and women were beaten as children.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Hitting children [Re: thoughts]
    #19279125 - 12/15/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

thoughts said:
Personally, i think you should only hit someone if they're a threat to your life and you need to defend yourself.
This actually goes for all creatures.

Do you beat your dog if he shits on your floor, for example?
No. Because that's animal abuse.

So why the fuck would a parent find it ok to strike their child for writing on the wall, for example. Or whatever example you wanna use to justify hitting a kid.
Do you also strike your friends and family when they disrespect you or act out of line?
How about someone else's kids?
Do you hit someone else's kids when they act out of line?
I don't think so.

So why would you strike your own child, someone who you claim to love with all your heart and soul?
Is striking your child the only option there is?


Perhaps it's the easiest, quickest method. Does that make it right?




In the words of my mother: "I hit you because I love you." Sounds very very familiar to what aggressors say in domestic violence situations.


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InvisibleP-O
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Re: Hitting children [Re: P-O]
    #19279139 - 12/15/13 12:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

P-O said:

I wouldnt spank a child but id spank crystal G :crazy2:




QFT


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Crystal G]
    #19279143 - 12/15/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

people are just animals.

every once in a while you gotta establish your dominance to make them obedient.


you see it in most mammals....




im not saying to beat the shit out of them but these no reason a solid spanking every once in a while isn't acceptable.


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Invisiblethoughts
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Crystal G]
    #19279144 - 12/15/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:


In the words of my mother: "I hit you because I love you." Sounds very very familiar to what aggressors say in domestic violence situations.



Yeah, it's pure abuse.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Uzziel] * 1
    #19279145 - 12/15/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:

When a parent tells the kid NO multiple times and the kid won't listen to reason or other forms of punishment... it calls for extra measures. Especially if the kid gets violent in the first place.




Agreed, having worked with kids I've seen the results of coddling. If that's an improvement in child-rearing I want to regress.


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OfflineKonichiwaffle
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #19279155 - 12/15/13 12:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

by the ridiculous claims in this thread, 90% of the people in the US should
be addicted to drugs, abusing their own kids, raping, killing and robbing
everyone around them... seems the 'studies' have a few major flaws
regarding the causes and the outcomes





I believe you have radically twisted any claims that I am at least aware of were made in this thread.  Personally, I never once said anything remotely related to this.  If you're pointing the finger at me, then I doubt you really paid any attention to the studies I had posted.


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OfflineMescalean
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Konichiwaffle]
    #19279157 - 12/15/13 12:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Was just a question based off curiousity. My line of thinking was why is a peaceful, non violent society looked at as so hight evolution. That violence is for the dim witted when biology states the opposite almost.

And sensitivity was meant as the whole politically correct world we're all living in today.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Hitting children [Re: Crystal G]
    #19279160 - 12/15/13 12:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Konichiwaffle said:
Maybe you're right about being overly sensitive.  However, wouldn't you agree that as a human being, you have an obligation to improve society, improve yourself, and create the most effective environment possible for your children, and your children's children?

With that being said, wouldn't you want to know the outcome of certain methods?  Wouldn't you want to research the errors of the past in order to not repeat the same mistakes?





how many people in the US are out committing crimes, killing people and
doing what ever, now tell us how many of those people were spanked, you
guys keep tossing this shit up as though it's cause and effect without
looking at it. how many people were spanked as kids and today live happy,
normal lives?

by the ridiculous claims in this thread, 90% of the people in the US should
be addicted to drugs, abusing their own kids, raping, killing and robbing
everyone around them... seems the 'studies' have a few major flaws
regarding the causes and the outcomes

90% of children in the US have been spanked... yeah, 90%

where's your statistic stand now?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/claire-mccarthy-md/spanking_b_1608747.html






I... don't really believe that statistic. 90% of parents spank their TODDLERS??!?!?! We're talking 2-3 year olds, right? Yea I don't think so.






really? why cant you believe it, it was stated by a doctor

maybe you have a completely different view as to what corporal punishment is
it doesnt have to involve a club, a stick or even a belt but a simple,
quick pop in the butt is still a spanking and yes, it's quite plausible
when you look at it from the factual side

Quote:


Well actually, if that statistic is true, then they are probably also including:
-Parents who spanked their kid once and then never did it again
-Parents who spanked their kids in "emergency" situations (sticking a fork in the electrical outlet, or running out into traffic)

I don't think either produces traumatic effects long-term.

And from your source:

Quote:

The most common "side effect" of spanking, though, is that spankees are more likely to hit other children.







oh, so now it's more plausible

and yes, children that were spanked are more likely to hit other kids but
when we look at it, 90% of the kids in the US were spanked so really, is
that such a far stretch given that it leave only 10% who are also prone to
hitting other kids, it is what kids frequently do after all and it's one of the things that gets their hand slapped or their little butts spanked

so really now, was it cause or effect

Quote:

This is another thing that woman with the master's degree in child behavior taught me. That if a child is going around hitting other kids, the most likely cause is that they are getting hit at home.




and you've still not given an answer, why arent 270 milion people in the US
drug addicted, violent criminals. it's quite possible to have an education
and still be a fuckwit, didnt george bush graduate from yale, an ivy leage
school that ranks up there with princeton and harvard, institutions that
crank out educated dumbasses every year


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InvisibleSet
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Re: Hitting children [Re: NWlight]
    #19279178 - 12/15/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NWlight said:
people are just animals.

every once in a while you gotta establish your dominance to make them obedient.


you see it in most mammals....




im not saying to beat the shit out of them but these no reason a solid spanking every once in a while isn't acceptable.



Other animals lack the level of development in the prefrontal cortex that occurs in the human brain.  An area of the human brain that develops rapidly until early adulthood.

Also, if we didn't possess metacognition (a result of the human prefrontal cortex) we wouldn't be capable of contemplating the complexities of implications of child abuse.


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