|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
TeenChallenge (They came to my church today)
#19279132 - 12/15/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I noticed a few different things when these guys came up and spoke at the pulpit today. For those of you that don't know, they are an organization of rehab centers so to speak, that teach abstinence of drugs while showing them the bible and God.
Please don't step on that ideal. What I want to discuss is a few interesting things I noticed.
One most prevalent, was that these men all claimed to be addicted, from a very young age, to "Dope" in any form. Ranging from Alcohol (though mostly a Gaba agonist) to heroin and some claimed meth. Some said "Whatever came my way" to which I wonder how true that is.
We on this site, usually have our spirituality either created or magnified and defined by Psychs which, by and large, are Serotonin agonists.
While we as responsible serotonin drug users (lets say if you trip less than 2 times a month just for a definite answer) seem to find the source or any other being of your choice, these dopamine abusers seem to find demons or spirits which lead them to feeling guilty, and thus lend their life over to God.
That seems to be a recurring theme among pastors and such. When they say they've done all sorts of drugs, they mostly mean that they've fucked around with Coke, Heroin, Meth, and similar drugs. They, if they even know what the hell they are, never mention Mescaline, DMT, Ibogaine etc.
Can we discuss why that is?
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
|
all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19279326 - 12/15/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Religious leaders of good will who have had profound religious / spiritual / mystical experiences on drugs such as LSD could not possibly, in good faith, preach abstinence from those kinds of (physically non-addictive) drugs. If they have had those types of experiences and do preach abstinence from the physically non-addictive stuff, they're either very fucked up and / or tools of the religion businesses that employ them. I'm guessing that most pastors have not had such experiences and have no personal reference points on the subject.
The physically-addictive stuff is another story all together.
Caring people (in or out of church) don't want to see others get physically addicted to chemicals. Common Sense / Common Compassion 101. I applaud any and all efforts to help people escape from their physical addictions.
Of course, anything, including soda pop, can become a psychological addiction. Such issues need to be handled on a case-by-case basis.
All in my opinion.
|
deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19279384 - 12/15/13 01:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Jamesdnh said: That seems to be a recurring theme among pastors and such. When they say they've done all sorts of drugs, they mostly mean that they've fucked around with Coke, Heroin, Meth, and similar drugs. They, if they even know what the hell they are, never mention Mescaline, DMT, Ibogaine etc.
Can we discuss why that is?
Because psychedelics/entheogens/serotonergic drugs tend to not be as addictive or as life-destroying as hard drugs like heroin or methamphetamine?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
|
all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: deCypher]
#19279423 - 12/15/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said: Because psychedelics/entheogens/serotonergic drugs tend to not be as addictive or as life-destroying as hard drugs like heroin or methamphetamine?
You and I know that... but are you implying that the pastors know that and intentionally exclude drugs like LSD from their condemnations?
If yes, I think that's assuming way way too much insight on the part of most religious clergy.
I suspect they only address the "addictive / life-destroying" stuff because that's all they see and are aware of in their communities.
|
deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
#19279544 - 12/15/13 02:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Nope, not implying anything of the sort. I agree with the rest of your post, however... although there may still be some pastors who have experienced spiritual gnosis and/or samadhi in their youth from psychedelics and still managed to incorporate it into their religious belief systems for the eventual benefit of their congregation.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
|
Bahaudeen
Stranger


Registered: 04/09/13
Posts: 30
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
#19279665 - 12/15/13 02:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Who take ibogaine for entheogenic use anyway?
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19279669 - 12/15/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Jamesdnh said:
That seems to be a recurring theme among pastors and such. When they say they've done all sorts of drugs, they mostly mean that they've fucked around with Coke, Heroin, Meth, and similar drugs. They, if they even know what the hell they are, never mention Mescaline, DMT, Ibogaine etc.
Can we discuss why that is?
What we can discuss is what their real motivation is. They want to come around and act like they have figured stuff out. But what oftener than not is the case is these people have found community and friendship and purpose. That isn't the same as figuring things out.
Store bought spirituality picked up from some 12 step programming. If it keeps you alive and makes you feel wonderful then by all means take the easy path and fall in.
The spiritual path is lonely, disciplined, and inexplicable. It doesn't fit a mold (unless you're a plastic people). It can't be taught. And rehab isn't the same thing. Nor is a method for abstinence the whole picture. The Goddess is bigger than all abstainers. Or she wouldn't have provided drugs.
-------------------- ...or something
|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: eve69]
#19279899 - 12/15/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
What I was mostly asking though, was that when you hear of testimonies of people being lost in drugs, it is always weed/alcohol first and they either get stuck there, or straight up drown in heroin or coke or meth and never, whether intentionally or not, ever mention any entheogen.
I mostly wanted to know whether, if they had ever tried something of entheogenic value, that they would "turn from their evil ways". That's what I want to get across. I know for a 100% fact, if I showed my fellow churchgoers, whether the few my age (one whom I live with) or a guitar playing singing 21 year old dude my DMT, I would be ostracized or excommunicated and told to change.
I know this.
But in 19 years of being in church, I have almost never heard of any "lost spirits" come back claiming they were lost after taking any entheogen in a responsible, spiritual manner (meaning non hedonistic ways).
(I said I live with another church going girl who's my same age and this is the account of her father from what I understand) This man I live with is approximately 60 years old and has many different stories of drugs in his youth. Ranging from alcoholism to coke to mesc to L, anything popular between the 60's and 80's I believe he tried. The thing is, he admits to having been an alcoholic and it destroyed his life. That, to me, indicates no self-control when it comes to any sort of drug usage and he is forced to abstain. So to put it this way, his entheogenic usage was more to get high than to see the truth or the light.
That's fine and dandy, but I have never run across another "responsible" user in the church in my 19 years of being involved in it. Every church has the ex pill popper, alcoholic, meth head, heroin user etc. but never seem to have the guy who dropped a few times in his life for enlightenment. At least non admit to it.
And so, my true question proposed is whether these people (us) are either in the right track, or has no negative influences into spirituality, or we are so wrong that, according to the bible in terms of this, we are left in our wicked ways? To any fellow bible readers out there, let me propose that Pharmakiea or drug usage, is akin and actually translated as witchcraft. Attempting to contact dead spirits (Ayahuasca) is witchcraft. Would my Judeo-Christian God turn his back on me due to witchcraft?
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
|
all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19280031 - 12/15/13 04:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Jamesdnh said: And so, my true question proposed is whether these people (us) are either in the right track, or has no negative influences into spirituality, or we are so wrong that, according to the bible in terms of this, we are left in our wicked ways? To any fellow bible readers out there, let me propose that Pharmakiea or drug usage, is akin and actually translated as witchcraft. Attempting to contact dead spirits (Ayahuasca) is witchcraft. Would my Judeo-Christian God turn his back on me due to witchcraft?
That you are posting in this particular forum -- and not on a website dedicated solely to discussing the size of Lady Gaga's tits -- suggests to me that you are on the right track.
Or, if not the "right track," at least a track not ventured upon by the mass of humanity.
Consider yourself blessed.
Your Judeo/Christian God wants you to know him better and more acutely. If your drug use facilitates that, he's very pleased and wants you to continue doing what you're doing.
Trust me on this.
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19280061 - 12/15/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Jamesdnh said: seem to have the guy who dropped a few times in his life for enlightenment. At least non admit to it.
I understand where you're going. Those who tripped a few times but who didn't fall into addictive drugs probably have no interest in being the exception to the rule for the sake of those who do have problems. Before coming out about any drug use the responsible person will consider what effect their words will have.
Don't be surprised if the people around you have even more secrets because they live amongst the society of conformism. Smaller things will out someone in the conformist milieu. Don't make a naive mistake and think you hang with the sinless just because they espouse doctrines with seemingly utter conviction.
As for the witchcraft thing, I think that's expanding the meaning a bit beyond its intention.
I think witchcraft for biblical purposes encompasses paganism, sorcery, and women in general, but women who were midwives and herbalists more specifically. The Church has ever been misogynistic. A witch to the church was one who seduced men away from religious duties often by just being beautiful. The word 'bitch' is a corruption of witch.
I don't think that even if you were a heinous and sickening pervert and insane dope fiend and into S and M and did weird rituals a man would be considered a witch. Even Anton LaVey would be ushered back into the fold if he repented.
But merely using entheogens to expand vision isn't witchcraft.
-------------------- ...or something
|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: eve69]
#19280362 - 12/15/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
eve69 said: But merely using entheogens to expand vision isn't witchcraft.
It was my understanding that witchcraft entailed pursuing visions or any enlightenment without entirely attaining them from prayer and fasting. I may very well be wrong but the use of drugs is prevalent in paganism is it not? Obviously the idea of throwing random shit in pots and riding broom sticks and turning into cats isn't so real but Ayahuasca specifically was both prevalent in those times and is speculated that when Moses came down the mountain after seeing the burning bush along with the 10 commandments, he was tripping bawls. Doesn't explain away the claim that the people looking up at him were blinded by the light of his presence encompassed with God .
That was a bit off track but I felt, necessary.
I would definitely like some sort of divine message saying that entheogen use is permitted, however I believe the only sort of permission will be received through said drugs. Meaning, well, the voice of God would either be muddled or not of God in the first place.
I have been told by many of my fathers co-workers so to speak, such as other pastors, that I need to find my faith and establish a solid connection with God. From one man, I seriously heard, "You need to go somewhere that you can be alone with God and make that connection because, James, he has something special planned for you". Ok, this is what came to mind.
DMT. I procured that shit like right after he had said it. That, and mescaline and a few grams of MDMA lol. In my mind, that almost confirmed that what I was planning on doing for so long, should be done. Eat some entheogens . But a report I read on the Nexus sort of scared me. I read a story of a man who tripped and saw a large 50ft demon writing into a book of names which had his name as the next to be written there. When the traveler asked what this was the demon replied without shifting focus something along the lines of,"This is the book of the damned. You sold your soul the first time you tripped DMT and I am writing your name here".
Really these past few weeks have been weird but today with the TeenChallenge it made me finally want to ask these questions so sorry if the title and intentions are misleading. I simply want that connection with God but am afraid my means of getting there are not... justified.
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19280495 - 12/15/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You are wrapped up in mental fantasies which include your whole religious understanding. I don't know you or how true what I just said was, but from what you say I would suggest that you already live in a world of witchcraft but one of the magical thinking of Christianity. It's funny to think that Christians think they aren't magic users when they pray for and against people at the drop of a dime.
Religions, as much as they like, do not control reality, and as God underlies everything (or nothing) ones own choices are in fact God's plan.
If substances allow you to get a grasp of what your personal path is then in a way they are knowledge with which to make fewer mistakes in your life.
You're going to encounter all sorts of paltry thinking knuckleheads who bad tripped and then went running to Momma religion - save my soul (as if they even had one).
When you look in the mirror you see the hair on your head, or maybe you see you don't have hair cause you're bald.
In what mirror do you see your soul in?
I suggest that the whole world and how you see it is your mirror. Do you see soul? Or no soul? Those who see devils, are there devils? Or are there only the devils of that person?
These questions aren't really rhetorical. The world is as you are. Because it filters through your mind.
There is really only your mind.
Give great care to your mind.
Entheogens help many they ruin others. It's a dice toss. But you sound really conflicted at the outset so I feel a bit of fear for you regarding such high power dopes as DMT. I am pretty sure Jesus wants you to give it all to me.
-------------------- ...or something
|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: eve69]
#19280568 - 12/15/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Don't lump me in with other Christians simply because I have the ability to ask questions which conflict with my personal beliefs and thus, can think objectively.
I believe in some form of a god which grants wishes based on unselfishness but not exactly of the bible. I use the bible as a starting point as it was my fathers religion which he raised me in and then passed on from cancer. As such, I both have many well respected allies in the church, and many questions of the validity of the bible itself.
I still attend simply not to leave my mother stranded by herself amongst people whom she wished were there for her more often.
To finally let that pass, I am a pursuer of psychology as a student right now and so I see many thoughts of psychedelia as ways to "cleanse" our subconscious minds from torment by the lessons they teach us. An example being that recently I have found I need to make more female friends as opposed to always going the sexual route with them.
In regards to souls, I feel they are quite real. You apparently feel they are not. I don't see the point in arguing a belief system such as this.
My conflicting energy, I feel, is both of ignorance of never yet experiencing this chem, and a want for something more in my life besides living week to week on a paycheck until I die; Love and such. I am just afraid of what negative implications I can be left with if I am wrong on this path; Again, due to ignorance.
Thank you for having an adult conversation with me but please, don't tell me I'm wrong (as I believe all are wrong) and do not jump to conclusions about my philosophies. I am who I am; conforming to a specific idea replaces my individuality.
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19280613 - 12/15/13 06:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I didn't mean it in a bad way. It's hard to get across very contrary ideas as THE medium for discussion rather than as a side effect of people slapping each other on the back for their very agreeable congruity. Most people can't consider anything foreign at all, so that you gave me a bit of consideration was just fine by me. Thanks for reading.
This that you said shows me that you are spending time in magical and fantastical thinking:
Quote:
I have been told by many of my fathers co-workers so to speak, such as other pastors, that I need to find my faith and establish a solid connection with God. From one man, I seriously heard, "You need to go somewhere that you can be alone with God and make that connection because, James, he has something special planned for you". Ok, this is what came to mind.
DMT. I procured that shit like right after he had said it. That, and mescaline and a few grams of MDMA lol. In my mind, that almost confirmed that what I was planning on doing for so long, should be done. Eat some entheogens . But a report I read on the Nexus sort of scared me. I read a story of a man who tripped and saw a large 50ft demon writing into a book of names which had his name as the next to be written there. When the traveler asked what this was the demon replied without shifting focus something along the lines of,"This is the book of the damned. You sold your soul the first time you tripped DMT and I am writing your name here".
Really these past few weeks have been weird but today with the TeenChallenge it made me finally want to ask these questions so sorry if the title and intentions are misleading. I simply want that connection with God but am afraid my means of getting there are not... justified.
And just because you're studying psychology doesn't really mean that you'll come through it with any more REAL understanding of the human psyche. Just more fantastical terms for what goes on. Psychiatry as a field is magic with some scientific wishfulness.
In response to your dissatisfaction with the mundane, yes, that is a fact of life and intoxication has served for all of time as a remedy. However, as the passing of the 60s proves, when the trip is over
it's over
-------------------- ...or something
|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: eve69]
#19280680 - 12/15/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
It's a product of my wishful thinking in that I want some sort of justification for my experimentation with drugs lol that's it. I don't (and I doubt anybody does) want to feel during or after the trip that I will be going to hell because of what I'm doing. That's pretty basic I feel.
I whole-heartedly agree. Being a doctor gives no more understanding of the human body and it's workings as a person who just simply studies this and knows it. It is a title and I wanted to make clear my interest in the psyche and things meta-physical which define us. Personally I see the magic, so to speak, in the science behind it. Fantastical, as you put it, beliefs in the orange pill bottle helping a non-physical ailment. The way oxycodone will not cure a broken bone, Prozac will not cure a broken spirit.
Humans wish to get high. That's why cigarettes and caffeine and alcohol are legal. We just give different words to them because, as Childish Gambino put it, "Nigga we ain't them, we ain't them". It allows a separation of those three as not "bad" drugs.
On the topic of the 60's, I feel that is a candy-coated view of life to believe one can remove itself entirely from a society without any responsibilities and still be seen as successful by anyone other than their peers. I am much more akin to 2010's where every person whom has the slightest bit of intelligence seems to have experimented with drugs and used them responsibly. We don't exactly have a over-use counter-culture like the 60's with acid, or the 80's with coke, or the 90's and early 2000's with raves. Correct me if I'm wrong on that subject I'd love to visit the "scene of 2010's" to say I was there before mass attention fucked it to being a popularity contest.
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
|
nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,561
Loc: Utah
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19280735 - 12/15/13 07:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
People like that often have no experience with drugs at all. They just like to say that they do so that they seem important/knowledgeable/cool/etc. The reality is that they've never tried anything. I've met people like that over and over. People who claim to have done soooo much, but have never actually touched any drug ever.
What they're really after is money. They couldn't care less about the other stuff. Those "rehab" places are virtually all physically and mentally abusive, and for that abuse you pay through the nose.
Edited by nooneman (12/15/13 07:13 PM)
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19286262 - 12/16/13 10:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
So is your question, is using psychedelics for spiritual purposes witchcraft in the eyes of the Lord?
This is something I have struggled with myself as a Christian tripper. I think part of the problem is that in our culture we have no socially accepted use for these chemicals. For example, you have to ask yourself, would you feel the same way about your psychedelic use if they were used legally as part of psychotherapy sessions and they were proven effective at helping people heal from various psychological problems? When use experiment with psychedelics on our own, with no guide or any idea what we are really doing, we are absolutely putting our souls in danger. I know that much be true, we are opening ourselves to energies which we do not understand and do not know how to control and these things can lead to serious spiritual problems as they did for me, when I took a lot of psychedelics and had a spiritual awakening long before I was ready for it.
You see one spiritual risk of psychedelics if that you will force a spiritual experience you are not ready for and this can have very negative effects on the soul, it can blow apart its identity which can then take years to rebuild. I know all this from personal experience.
On the other hand, I also look at psychedelics as being powerful spiritual medicine which when used in the right way, can have incredibly positive effects on the soul. I have also had healing experiences on psychedelics which brought me back to God and in fact, I joined the Catholic CHurch as a result of a series of LSD trips during which I felt inexplicably called to the Holy Catholic Church.
Ultimately, I think that God would rather us pursue him through prayer and devotion because these are much safer than tripping balls.
However, I also dont think there is anything wrong using psychedelics for healing when you are suffering from serious energy blockages. Ultimately I think you need to decide. You need to ask yourself these questions:
What is my motivation? Am I doing this to get high or to see stuff beyond the ordinary or am I am guenuinely trying to grow closer to God/heal myself?
What are my experiences like? Do I feel like I am healing or connecting with with God or I am being drawn into revelry or getting in touch with dark spirits?
What are the effects on my life?
When you do everything with love and thanksgiving and the best possible intentions, then I dont believe you need to worry about what youre doing. But if you dont have pure intentions and you disobey warning signs that you are in danger, than you should be very worried.
In conclusion I dont know for sure. WHo really knows what psychedelics do to us? all I know is that I have received both darkness and light from them (whereas real Christian practices give you only light). But this doesnt mean psychedelics are bad or evil. It could very well be that God made them as medicine for souls who have gone seriously astray. Thats kind of how I look at them. If you truly devoted to and in love with God, you dont really need psychedelics. And yet icf you are completely lost in darkness, chances are you are not worshipping God and then a pssychedelic experience can completely change your trajectory and lead you back to God. There is no one but us to ultimately decide what is good and bad, so we have to make our own minds about psychedelics and how or whether to use them. thats how I feel.
|
all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19287608 - 12/17/13 08:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Deviate said: Ultimately, I think that God would rather us pursue him through prayer and devotion because these are much safer than tripping balls.
Presumably your God made the chemicals. So if he has the sort of "intentions" for us that you're suggesting, why wouldn't he have just "skipped" the drug thing and moved us directly to the "prayer and devotion" thing? I mean, wouldn't that make a lot more sense?
Lol. Just being playful here. I know the dogma. 
For some bizarre and inexplicable reason, God is "testing" us, yes? Just like in the Garden of Eden. There are things we may partake of and things we may not. The choice is ours, and the punishments and rewards are impressive.
The Judeo/Christian mythology of a scheming, conniving God who holds out forbidden apples to see if we will bite is so ludicrous that it's good. Entertaining, actually.
Any fans of the filmmaker John Waters out there?
His stuff is so ludicrous that it's good, too.
|
Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
#19287662 - 12/17/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Thinking that we could know what actions god prefers is pretty tasty as well.
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19289327 - 12/17/13 04:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Thinking that we could know what actions god prefers is pretty tasty as well.
No it's not at all, God has made it clear that he "loveth righteousness". So God prefers actions that come from a pure heart, what matters most is good will. God is not far from us, he is in us and is us. So don't trick yourself into thinking its not possible to know his will.
|
Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19289353 - 12/17/13 04:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Deviate said: God has made it clear that he "loveth righteousness".
Has he now? 
Don't get me wrong, I try to hold onto good will as much as possible. It has nothing to do with a message from god, unless you are being metaphorical and vague, in which case using the word god just adds confusion.
I try to treat people well because I care about them. It's my will, not god's.
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
#19289389 - 12/17/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Ultimately, I think that God would rather us pursue him through prayer and devotion because these are much safer than tripping balls.
Presumably your God made the chemicals. So if he has the sort of "intentions" for us that you're suggesting, why wouldn't he have just "skipped" the drug thing and moved us directly to the "prayer and devotion" thing? I mean, wouldn't that make a lot more sense?
No, it wouldn't. It's the journey that matters, not the destination. Ultimately God desires for us to a have a close intimate relationship with him, such that we do not need to take drugs in order to know his will for us. But for people who have completely lost their connection tot he divine, God has provided very powerful drugs that remind us of it. It makes sense to me but expecting everything God does to make sense to you, is one of the dumbest expectations you can possibly have. This is what atheists do. They expect God to make sense to them in every possible way and when of course he doesn't, then conclude he doesn't exist. That's ludicrous. There is no way that the mind can comprehend the intelligence that created the mind better than that intelligence.
Lol. Just being playful here. I know the dogma. 
Quote:
For some bizarre and inexplicable reason, God is "testing" us, yes? Just like in the Garden of Eden. There are things we may partake of and things we may not. The choice is ours, and the punishments and rewards are impressive.
The Judeo/Christian mythology of a scheming, conniving God who holds out forbidden apples to see if we will bite is so ludicrous that it's good. Entertaining, actually.
Any fans of the filmmaker John Waters out there?
His stuff is so ludicrous that it's good, too. 
Of course God tests us. He tests us to see who is and who is not fit for the kingdom of heaven.
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19289401 - 12/17/13 04:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
Deviate said: God has made it clear that he "loveth righteousness".
Has he now? 
Don't get me wrong, I try to hold onto good will as much as possible. It has nothing to do with a message from god, unless you are being metaphorical and vague, in which case using the word god just adds confusion.
I try to treat people well because I care about them. It's my will, not god's.
So you know what God's will is and you know he doesn't want you to treat other people well but you choose to disobey him and treat other people well anyway? Is that what you're telling me?
|
all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19289612 - 12/17/13 05:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Deviate said: So you know what God's will is and you know he doesn't want you to treat other people well but you choose to disobey him and treat other people well anyway? Is that what you're telling me?
Deviate, please consider the possibility that this mythological god thingy of yours resents the fact that you refer to Him as "him."
If you're going to go all 'fundamentalist Christian' on us, please adhere to the rules of fundamentalism.
It's "He," not "he."
|
deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
#19289618 - 12/17/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Why not Her?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
|
all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: deCypher]
#19289662 - 12/17/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said: Why not Her? 
Reasonable question.
I suggest we ask 'ennin' in one of his threads whether it's possible that Allah is female. In which case, Allah would not be permitted to drive a car in some Islamic countries.
And wouldn't that be a sad thing, I ask you...
Being God, yet not being permitted to drive?
|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
#19289891 - 12/17/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
deCypher said: Why not Her? 
Reasonable question.
I suggest we ask 'ennin' in one of his threads whether it's possible that Allah is female. In which case, Allah would not be permitted to drive a car in some Islamic countries.
And wouldn't that be a sad thing, I ask you...
Being God, yet not being permitted to drive? 
Mostly because the bible itself refers to it as He but I believe it is an IT because, having made man and woman in its image, it wouldn't make sense that there was a female form. Unless there is another god.
But that's irrelevant. That other guy gave me some food for thought. Interesting because I am following a "darkened" path if you will, to treat through illegal drugs. To first guide someone through, I feel I need to know how to control it. My intentions are to show others the light while they are left in dark. Whether this is justification for my own usage or a genuine want to help, I do not know. It's either the latter, or both equally, but this is not a selfish desire to get high or trip bawls.
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
|
deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19289923 - 12/17/13 06:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Jamesdnh said: But that's irrelevant. That other guy gave me some food for thought. Interesting because I am following a "darkened" path if you will, to treat through illegal drugs. To first guide someone through, I feel I need to know how to control it. My intentions are to show others the light while they are left in dark. Whether this is justification for my own usage or a genuine want to help, I do not know. It's either the latter, or both equally, but this is not a selfish desire to get high or trip bawls.
One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. Or so a wise Jung man once said.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
#19289993 - 12/17/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
For some bizarre and inexplicable reason, God is "testing" us, yes? Just like in the Garden of Eden. There are things we may partake of and things we may not. The choice is ours, and the punishments and rewards are impressive.
That kind of God can suck my shorts. Of course it's a childish idea but then most humans emotional development stalled in junior high.
The utter silliness of god inspiring a book for us to read full of lessons and rules about life is too much for my imagination. I mean the fact that humans, actual adult aged humans, swallow this nonsense and then go around telling others about is the final nail in the stoopid coffin that humanity will finally be put to rest in. And good riddance.
There I said it.
My 2 cents.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate] 1
#19290520 - 12/17/13 08:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
Deviate said: God has made it clear that he "loveth righteousness".
Has he now? 
Don't get me wrong, I try to hold onto good will as much as possible. It has nothing to do with a message from god, unless you are being metaphorical and vague, in which case using the word god just adds confusion.
I try to treat people well because I care about them. It's my will, not god's.
So you know what God's will is and you know he doesn't want you to treat other people well but you choose to disobey him and treat other people well anyway? Is that what you're telling me?
Uh, no. God doesn't factor into the equation at all for me is my point, because I don't presume to know what some being who presumably created the universe and everything in it could be thinking.
|
deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19290732 - 12/17/13 09:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
Deviate said: God has made it clear that he "loveth righteousness".
Has he now? 
Don't get me wrong, I try to hold onto good will as much as possible. It has nothing to do with a message from god, unless you are being metaphorical and vague, in which case using the word god just adds confusion.
I try to treat people well because I care about them. It's my will, not god's.
So you know what God's will is and you know he doesn't want you to treat other people well but you choose to disobey him and treat other people well anyway? Is that what you're telling me?
Uh, no. God doesn't factor into the equation at all for me is my point, because I don't presume to know what some being who presumably created the universe and everything in it could be thinking.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
|
TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.



Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: deCypher] 1
#19291290 - 12/18/13 12:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Being raised in an Independent Baptist household, alot of the Christian Rhetoric got pushed down my throat at a young age. So I know it can be hard to break from the senselessness of at least some 2000 years of ignorance. You've got to really ask yourself, "What is the truth?" The truth is if you could meet God with a little piece of paper, or a pill, or powder. Why would you pay some asshat to tell you about his idea of "God" based on a book that has been bastardized over and over since it was canonized at the Council of Nicea. The church doesn't want you to meet God on your own terms, they'd be out of a paycheck.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#19292557 - 12/18/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Bingo!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19296592 - 12/19/13 04:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
For some bizarre and inexplicable reason, God is "testing" us, yes? Just like in the Garden of Eden. There are things we may partake of and things we may not. The choice is ours, and the punishments and rewards are impressive.
That kind of God can suck my shorts. Of course it's a childish idea but then most humans emotional development stalled in junior high.
The utter silliness of god inspiring a book for us to read full of lessons and rules about life is too much for my imagination. I mean the fact that humans, actual adult aged humans, swallow this nonsense and then go around telling others about is the final nail in the stoopid coffin that humanity will finally be put to rest in. And good riddance.
There I said it.
My 2 cents.
If God didn't inspire the Bible, who did? Man and God are not separate, it's only the ego that makes it appear so. Hence anyone who can write from the heart, can channel God, and this is all that the prophets and authors of the Bible did. They simply expressed what was in their hearts in a way that most men could not do on account of being blinded by the selfishness of the ego. Hence, all the that Bible is, is a collection of sayings from wise and holy men who lived in ancient Israel. I can assure, their wisdom is not nonsense. That much is certain. If you believe in the whims of the ego, over timeless spiritual wisdom, then it's you who speak nonsense.
|
TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.



Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19296617 - 12/19/13 05:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
So raping and murdering women, sacrificing your own children, covering your faithful servants in boils(then collapsing a house on all that servants' children), slaughtering entire families (including killing and burning cattle). All this, and more, from the benevolent "holy" men that brought you the bible. Fucking ignorant nonsense that serves nobody but the really greedy and the totally oblivious.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
Edited by TheGreenArrow (12/19/13 05:12 AM)
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#19296725 - 12/19/13 06:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Hey they weren't perfect. Are you?
|
TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.



Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19296755 - 12/19/13 06:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I'm not a ham-fisted neck-beard trying to tell everybody how to "get to God".
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19296792 - 12/19/13 06:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
For some bizarre and inexplicable reason, God is "testing" us, yes? Just like in the Garden of Eden. There are things we may partake of and things we may not. The choice is ours, and the punishments and rewards are impressive.
That kind of God can suck my shorts. Of course it's a childish idea but then most humans emotional development stalled in junior high.
The utter silliness of god inspiring a book for us to read full of lessons and rules about life is too much for my imagination. I mean the fact that humans, actual adult aged humans, swallow this nonsense and then go around telling others about is the final nail in the stoopid coffin that humanity will finally be put to rest in. And good riddance.
There I said it.
My 2 cents.
If God didn't inspire the Bible, who did? Man and God are not separate, it's only the ego that makes it appear so. Hence anyone who can write from the heart, can channel God, and this is all that the prophets and authors of the Bible did. They simply expressed what was in their hearts in a way that most men could not do on account of being blinded by the selfishness of the ego. Hence, all the that Bible is, is a collection of sayings from wise and holy men who lived in ancient Israel. I can assure, their wisdom is not nonsense. That much is certain. If you believe in the whims of the ego, over timeless spiritual wisdom, then it's you who speak nonsense.
Man is real and there is no proof of your god. So the answer is obvious. It's like saying if god didn't inspire santa claus who did? You're just afraid of being human imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19297145 - 12/19/13 09:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Deviate said: If God didn't inspire the Bible, who did?
Hence, all the that Bible is, is a collection of sayings from wise and holy men who lived in ancient Israel.
If you believe in the whims of the ego, over timeless spiritual wisdom, then it's you who speak nonsense.
Quote:
Deviate said: Hey they weren't perfect. Are you?
I wonder why you place so much faith in these ancient flawed human beings.
Personally I think there is much more relevant and honest wisdom from some of the flawed human beings in this very forum, here and now.
|
all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19297202 - 12/19/13 09:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sleepwalker said: Personally I think there is much more relevant and honest wisdom from some of the flawed human beings in this very forum, here and now.
I think there's a lot of wisdom in this forum, too. And a nice diversity of views. If you go to a Buddhist internet board, all you get is Buddhist stuff. Same with the Daoist boards, the Christian boards, you name it. All you get is the party line.
There's also a lot of wisdom in the holy books of the world's faiths. You gotta know how to dig it out, though. "Wheat from the chaff," and all that.
Takes some work, but it can be worth it.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
#19297213 - 12/19/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
It's only worth it imo if you completely dump the rest of it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19298620 - 12/19/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
Deviate said: God has made it clear that he "loveth righteousness".
Has he now? 
Don't get me wrong, I try to hold onto good will as much as possible. It has nothing to do with a message from god, unless you are being metaphorical and vague, in which case using the word god just adds confusion.
I try to treat people well because I care about them. It's my will, not god's.
So you know what God's will is and you know he doesn't want you to treat other people well but you choose to disobey him and treat other people well anyway? Is that what you're telling me?
Uh, no. God doesn't factor into the equation at all for me is my point, because I don't presume to know what some being who presumably created the universe and everything in it could be thinking.
That's nice but my point stands. You treat other people well because of the goodness in your heart. I call this goodness God.
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19298641 - 12/19/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
For some bizarre and inexplicable reason, God is "testing" us, yes? Just like in the Garden of Eden. There are things we may partake of and things we may not. The choice is ours, and the punishments and rewards are impressive.
That kind of God can suck my shorts. Of course it's a childish idea but then most humans emotional development stalled in junior high.
The utter silliness of god inspiring a book for us to read full of lessons and rules about life is too much for my imagination. I mean the fact that humans, actual adult aged humans, swallow this nonsense and then go around telling others about is the final nail in the stoopid coffin that humanity will finally be put to rest in. And good riddance.
There I said it.
My 2 cents.
If God didn't inspire the Bible, who did? Man and God are not separate, it's only the ego that makes it appear so. Hence anyone who can write from the heart, can channel God, and this is all that the prophets and authors of the Bible did. They simply expressed what was in their hearts in a way that most men could not do on account of being blinded by the selfishness of the ego. Hence, all the that Bible is, is a collection of sayings from wise and holy men who lived in ancient Israel. I can assure, their wisdom is not nonsense. That much is certain. If you believe in the whims of the ego, over timeless spiritual wisdom, then it's you who speak nonsense.
Man is real and there is no proof of your god. So the answer is obvious. It's like saying if god didn't inspire santa claus who did? You're just afraid of being human imo.
There is proof, as St. Paul said God has made his glory, power and divinity known from the beginning of time through his creation. If you look outward, you find an infinitely vast creation (proof of the infinite) and if you look within yourself, you encounter the vastness of your own soul and the light which illuminates it. What more proof of the infinite could you possibly ask for? THe Bible calls this infinite mystery "God" or "I AM" which is the most accurate and to the point name of God in any religion, because really what more can be said about God other than the fact that He is? Or do you deny that reality exists and is infinite?
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19298675 - 12/19/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
Deviate said: If God didn't inspire the Bible, who did?
Hence, all the that Bible is, is a collection of sayings from wise and holy men who lived in ancient Israel.
If you believe in the whims of the ego, over timeless spiritual wisdom, then it's you who speak nonsense.
Quote:
Deviate said: Hey they weren't perfect. Are you?
I wonder why you place so much faith in these ancient flawed human beings.
Personally I think there is much more relevant and honest wisdom from some of the flawed human beings in this very forum, here and now.
Well great, you are entitled to your opinion but I don't see why I cant value both ancient wisdom and the wisdom of people on this forum.
This may come as a shock to you, but most of the ideas discussed on this forum aren't exactly new. Most of the ideas we have on this forum, are influenced by or taken directly from ideas or formed in opposition to, ancient ideas and questions that have been relevant for all human history. I am a big believer in looking back to see how we arrived at where we are today. But if you want to ignore history and form your opinions exclusively based on what people post on the shroomery, thats your prerogative.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate] 1
#19298681 - 12/19/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You're trying a really sneaky tactic by calling it the infinite but you give yourself away but then calling it "he". The infinite needs no creed nor church nor worship. "He" does.
You're stuck in the finite with your male god idol, body and blood and all that other, imo, egotistical nonsense.
If you truly were posting like it was the infinite, without boundary or description I wouldn't be saying anything at all about it. I'd let you go on your merry way.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19298764 - 12/19/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
No, I'm not stuck I simply have great respect and admiration for the Christian tradition. The Christian tradition is as a valid as any other. You could start your own religion and honor God in your way but that wouldn't make the Christian tradition any less valid.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19298903 - 12/19/13 05:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
It's also a tradition of abuse of humanity. I know you don't care about that but I do. Midwives condemned as witches, tortured into confessing, burned at the stake so their land could be stolen by the church and put the medical profession firmly in the hands of men. How is that a tradition worth following? I could give you a list as long as my arm of abuses of humanity right up to the present by that church you admire so much.
Can you give me any such list from those who follow the philosophy of Taoism? Or any atheist group for that matter? You can't, you won't and as you said you really don't care what the church does as long as you can take holy communion. I've been here eight years and I've never been as stunned by any admission by a religious person. The only thing that comes close for me is Fivepointer's insistence that god chooses to send unsaved babies to hell to burn for eternity as an example to his personal flock of beloved saved so they can see how much he loves them. 
Please save me from all such traditions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.



Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19298965 - 12/19/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Not to mention they've stunted scientific advancement and indoctrinated guilt in most of western society. I'd say Christianity and the millions that followed it in our country are at the root of the problem with drug prohibition in the U.S.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19299056 - 12/19/13 05:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: It's also a tradition of abuse of humanity. I know you don't care about that but I do. Midwives condemned as witches, tortured into confessing, burned at the stake so their land could be stolen by the church and put the medical profession firmly in the hands of men. How is that a tradition worth following? I could give you a list as long as my arm of abuses of humanity right up to the present by that church you admire so much.
Can you give me any such list from those who follow the philosophy of Taoism? Or any atheist group for that matter? You can't, you won't and as you said you really don't care what the church does as long as you can take holy communion. I've been here eight years and I've never been as stunned by any admission by a religious person. The only thing that comes close for me is Fivepointer's insistence that god chooses to send unsaved babies to hell to burn for eternity as an example to his personal flock of beloved saved so they can see how much he loves them. 
Please save me from all such traditions.
Yes Christians have abused humanity but that doesn't make Christianity any more or less valuable as a spiritual teaching. You cant say that because Christians did X it means God doesn't exist or that the Bible is wrong. I mean Christianity is simply a language for discussing spiritual experience. So dismissing Christianity because of what Christians have done is a little bit like dismissing German because of the holocaust. Yes, the holocaust was bad but that doesn't mean German is somehow an improper language. But what you are doing is like, everytime I speak German you bring up the holocaust. give it a rest already, would you? I get that you dont like German.
Quote:
How is that a tradition worth following?
Thats like asking me how is German a language worth speaking?
Oh and the witch hunts were a mistake. Five years after the Salem witch trials, the town realized they had made a huge mistake.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19299128 - 12/19/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I've already responded to all this several times so I'm not going to beat a dead horse anymore for today at least on that issue.
I will share this though. http://www.vaticancrimes.us/2013/12/sex-abuse-in-catholic-church-10-of.html
And that's just one small issue. One among very many. You keep acting like it's just a bad apple or two in a huge barrel of goodness. How one can justify following a religion and know all this is and ignore it is truly one of the mysteries of existence. And it's not like you need the Catholic church. I mean you have the bible and it's all there to be used as you will without having to associate with such amazing dysfunction.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/19/13 05:40 PM)
|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19299984 - 12/19/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: It's also a tradition of abuse of humanity. I know you don't care about that but I do. Midwives condemned as witches, tortured into confessing, burned at the stake so their land could be stolen by the church and put the medical profession firmly in the hands of men. How is that a tradition worth following? I could give you a list as long as my arm of abuses of humanity right up to the present by that church you admire so much.
Can you give me any such list from those who follow the philosophy of Taoism? Or any atheist group for that matter? You can't, you won't and as you said you really don't care what the church does as long as you can take holy communion. I've been here eight years and I've never been as stunned by any admission by a religious person. The only thing that comes close for me is Fivepointer's insistence that god chooses to send unsaved babies to hell to burn for eternity as an example to his personal flock of beloved saved so they can see how much he loves them. 
Please save me from all such traditions.
You're (let's assume) either European or American. How can you live in a country that supported mass genocide on the Native Americans or my people, the Mexicans.
In both instances, that shit was NOT you, or almost anyone you directly know, personal choice and therefore, even if it was mainstream 5 years ago, or widespread on the other side of the planet, you cannot generalize based solely on nitpicking. That, to me, shows that you are immature. Choosing to say that a group of people is stupid or bad because they go by a certain title or creed (American or Christian, doesn't matter) that has a dark side is not an argument at all but is quite prevalent to assume so.
Let other's beliefs stay as they are and don't step in to say one is not right. That's all I want to get across man.
Edit: Probably should have quoted your other paper but this will suffice.
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
Edited by Atrium (12/19/13 08:54 PM)
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19300652 - 12/19/13 11:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: I've already responded to all this several times so I'm not going to beat a dead horse anymore for today at least on that issue.
I will share this though. http://www.vaticancrimes.us/2013/12/sex-abuse-in-catholic-church-10-of.html
And that's just one small issue. One among very many. You keep acting like it's just a bad apple or two in a huge barrel of goodness. How one can justify following a religion and know all this is and ignore it is truly one of the mysteries of existence. And it's not like you need the Catholic church. I mean you have the bible and it's all there to be used as you will without having to associate with such amazing dysfunction.
I hope you don't ever buy German products, because they are responsible for the holocaust.
The incidence as of sex abuse in the catholic church was no higher than the incidence in public schools, according to many studies Ive read, the main issue was the church authorities did not handle it properly.
Your last statement shows how little you understand about me. What does the Bible have to do with anything? Christianity is a bhakti religion. The idea is to build up love for God. In order to do that, you need to participate in rituals with other people, sing hymns, kneel down before the blessed sacrament, etc. This kind of behavior has effects on the human subconscious, positive healing effects. The Bible is great but it can never take the place of public worship.
Bhakti is not a rational thing. Its not like I made a rational decision to join the catholic church based on a bunch of facts about its moral record. I was lead to the catholic church, because thats what I felt I needed to do at the time. There is no explaining it. I became catholic following a series of LSD trips during which the LSD made it clear to me that that was the route I needed to take. The LSD did not even bring up the sex abuse scandal or anything like that. That was the furthest thing from the LSD's mind. It simply told me, this is the path you must follow, want to know why? too bad. I then had the choice to follow it or not to follow it. I chose to follow it.
There is no rational justification, nor does their need to be. it simply happened.
Edited by Deviate (12/19/13 11:54 PM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19301564 - 12/20/13 06:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Fuck that shit. I'm not trying to defend my country and I am culpable and responsible for most of the evils my country is currently doing. I'm responsible but outside of killing myself I have to live somewhere and all countries are pretty much the same in this regard. With a church you're not up against any wall. Walking away has no consequences. It's not like the church is all goodness now. You don't have a leg to stand on imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19301575 - 12/20/13 06:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The incidence as of sex abuse in the catholic church was no higher than the incidence in public schools, according to many studies Ive read, the main issue was the church authorities did not handle it properly
I'm not defending public schools either and have many of the same complaints about them so not such a good example.
Carry on with your rituals then. It's easy to see you're fixated and not rational in this regard by your own admission.
I'd rather be a snake handler.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19301863 - 12/20/13 08:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: Fuck that shit. I'm not trying to defend my country and I am culpable and responsible for most of the evils my country is currently doing. I'm responsible but outside of killing myself I have to live somewhere and all countries are pretty much the same in this regard. With a church you're not up against any wall. Walking away has no consequences. It's not like the church is all goodness now. You don't have a leg to stand on imo. 
There you go. It's different because he says so. Guess there's no argument anymore.
The equivalent of practicing spirituality without a congregation is living off the grid without any helping hand in times of need. Just assuming you want someone else there to relay ideas of your god, it is neigh impossible to keep keep the faith without a living testament of a person supporting you beside it all.
Without your fellow believer, without your neighbor in America seeing the same shit you do, it's pretty hard to believe there is others like you. That's all church is to me though I realize others go much too far in my opinion. Rather than learning for themselves, they shun all opposition.
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19301993 - 12/20/13 09:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: Fuck that shit. I'm not trying to defend my country and I am culpable and responsible for most of the evils my country is currently doing. I'm responsible but outside of killing myself I have to live somewhere and all countries are pretty much the same in this regard. With a church you're not up against any wall. Walking away has no consequences. It's not like the church is all goodness now. You don't have a leg to stand on imo. 
Why do I need a leg to stand on? I have no need to defend my actions or justify them. Its just something that happened to me in my life. Its really not very important. I went to church on sunday. I shopped at the grocery store. THese are just things that happened to me. Its you that is seeing into them some importance, something which is not there in my opinion. I am just living. Just observing life from the standpoint of this body. I go to church and I observe what happens. I take great interest in observing the ritual religious behavior of these people, almost like I am an anthrolopogist. At the same time, I am not just a neutral observer. I also observe myself as a true participant. I notice how worshiping God and participating in rituals effects parts of my being which are not under my rational control. I notice how good it is to acknowledge the reality of these parts of being together which a group of other people who are also acknowledging sacred parts of themselves. I notice our togetherness but also our separation (we all ultimately go back to our own lives in which we are all truly alone). Its you who says "but you can't just live, you have to do this and you have to consider this and what about those people from a hundred years ago?"
Do you see what I am saying? I reject the very notion that I have to take a "rational" approach to life. As long as my actions are stemming from the love in my heart, then I see no reason to over analyze them. My heart tells me thats its alright to go to church, its alright to shop at the grocery store and its alright not to worry too much about these things.
|
Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19302344 - 12/20/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
Deviate said: If God didn't inspire the Bible, who did?
Hence, all the that Bible is, is a collection of sayings from wise and holy men who lived in ancient Israel.
If you believe in the whims of the ego, over timeless spiritual wisdom, then it's you who speak nonsense.
Quote:
Deviate said: Hey they weren't perfect. Are you?
I wonder why you place so much faith in these ancient flawed human beings.
Personally I think there is much more relevant and honest wisdom from some of the flawed human beings in this very forum, here and now.
Well great, you are entitled to your opinion but I don't see why I cant value both ancient wisdom and the wisdom of people on this forum.
This may come as a shock to you, but most of the ideas discussed on this forum aren't exactly new. Most of the ideas we have on this forum, are influenced by or taken directly from ideas or formed in opposition to, ancient ideas and questions that have been relevant for all human history. I am a big believer in looking back to see how we arrived at where we are today. But if you want to ignore history and form your opinions exclusively based on what people post on the shroomery, thats your prerogative.
I guess you aren't going to address your contradictory statements. What is this tangent? Nothing more than a condescending jab at me.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19302487 - 12/20/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Jamesdnh said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Fuck that shit. I'm not trying to defend my country and I am culpable and responsible for most of the evils my country is currently doing. I'm responsible but outside of killing myself I have to live somewhere and all countries are pretty much the same in this regard. With a church you're not up against any wall. Walking away has no consequences. It's not like the church is all goodness now. You don't have a leg to stand on imo. 
There you go. It's different because he says so. Guess there's no argument anymore.
The equivalent of practicing spirituality without a congregation is living off the grid without any helping hand in times of need. Just assuming you want someone else there to relay ideas of your god, it is neigh impossible to keep keep the faith without a living testament of a person supporting you beside it all.
Without your fellow believer, without your neighbor in America seeing the same shit you do, it's pretty hard to believe there is others like you. That's all church is to me though I realize others go much too far in my opinion. Rather than learning for themselves, they shun all opposition.
Are you trying to tell me you can't find fellow believers outside of the church?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19302679 - 12/20/13 12:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Does that mean you can't find fellow Americans in Europe or vise versa? No. It's just rare enough that you may potentially miss them if you don't inquire every single person you see, which is not how our society works. You congregate to places of like minded people.
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium] 1
#19302766 - 12/20/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Especially if you're looking for little boys. 
Look dude, if you really don't have the skills to hook up with or create a like minded group to worship with then there's nothing any god will be able to do for you. It can't perform miracles you know.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19302815 - 12/20/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: Especially if you're looking for little boys. 
Look dude, if you really don't have the skills to hook up with or create a like minded group to worship with then there's nothing any god will be able to do for you. It can't perform miracles you know. 
You mother fucker... This wasn't even the original topic. All I wanted to know about was serotonin acting drugs and their affect on Christianity. I'm pretty sure I even stated too keep the shit of questioning my beliefs out of here.
Not that I ever posted what I believe or how church works for me. I defend these people because, let's face it, it seems the internet can't understand the right to believe what you want to. It's quite rare to see someone openly mocking a christian or atheist in person because most people understand you are the sum of your experiences.
I go to school, talk to locked tight til marriage, every Sunday girls and guys who do too much drugs every chance they get. You got that socially awkward kid who seems puzzled someone talks to them and another who won't shut their mouth. I talk to them all to understand them better. I don't listen to what they say then call them stupid and laugh and whatnot. Other people can do what the hell they choose. It's not my job to tell them they're wrong.
Why do you believe it's yours?
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
|
TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.



Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19302899 - 12/20/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I just can't get over this. I mean there is no denying that Christianity has stunted the western world's growth as a society, they rape children, and most of the time they're dicks that miss most of the points Christ was making in the first place. I'm sorry but this board has got me convinced the sooner the world wakes up from the nightmare of Christianity the better.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
|
all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#19302971 - 12/20/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
TheGreenArrow said: I just can't get over this. I mean there is no denying that Christianity has stunted the western world's growth as a society, they rape children, and most of the time they're dicks that miss most of the points Christ was making in the first place. I'm sorry but this board has got me convinced the sooner the world wakes up from the nightmare of Christianity the better.
That's a fairly common sentiment among the awake, and I share a lot of it.
Institutional Christianity has been, without question, the single-most destructive force in the history of the world.
Any non-brainwashed person can see that. Open up any good history textbook. It's all there.
I say... Declare a state of emergency, evacuate the many sincere and good people who identify as Christian, and nuke the entire institution.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19302993 - 12/20/13 01:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Jamesdnh said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Especially if you're looking for little boys. 
Look dude, if you really don't have the skills to hook up with or create a like minded group to worship with then there's nothing any god will be able to do for you. It can't perform miracles you know. 
You mother fucker... This wasn't even the original topic. All I wanted to know about was serotonin acting drugs and their affect on Christianity. I'm pretty sure I even stated too keep the shit of questioning my beliefs out of here.
Not that I ever posted what I believe or how church works for me. I defend these people because, let's face it, it seems the internet can't understand the right to believe what you want to. It's quite rare to see someone openly mocking a christian or atheist in person because most people understand you are the sum of your experiences.
I go to school, talk to locked tight til marriage, every Sunday girls and guys who do too much drugs every chance they get. You got that socially awkward kid who seems puzzled someone talks to them and another who won't shut their mouth. I talk to them all to understand them better. I don't listen to what they say then call them stupid and laugh and whatnot. Other people can do what the hell they choose. It's not my job to tell them they're wrong.
Why do you believe it's yours?
Did you know flaming was against forum rules?
I do whatever I want here as long as I remain within forum guidelines. Get over yourself.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Atrium
Cunt Tickler

Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
#19303001 - 12/20/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
TheGreenArrow said: I just can't get over this. I mean there is no denying that Christianity has stunted the western world's growth as a society, they rape children, and most of the time they're dicks that miss most of the points Christ was making in the first place. I'm sorry but this board has got me convinced the sooner the world wakes up from the nightmare of Christianity the better.
That's a fairly common sentiment among the awake, and I share a lot of it.
Institutional Christianity has been, without question, the single-most destructive force in the history of the world.
Any non-brainwashed person can see that. Open up any good history textbook. It's all there.
I say... Declare a state of emergency, evacuate the many sincere and good people who identify as Christian, and nuke the entire institution.
I can agree to this
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,855
Last seen: 12 minutes, 46 seconds
|
Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19305034 - 12/20/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
This thread has been closed.
Reason: The wheels are off this train.
|
|