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Icelander
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: all this beauty]
#19297213 - 12/19/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's only worth it imo if you completely dump the rest of it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19298620 - 12/19/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sleepwalker said:
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Deviate said:
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Sleepwalker said:
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Deviate said: God has made it clear that he "loveth righteousness".
Has he now? 
Don't get me wrong, I try to hold onto good will as much as possible. It has nothing to do with a message from god, unless you are being metaphorical and vague, in which case using the word god just adds confusion.
I try to treat people well because I care about them. It's my will, not god's.
So you know what God's will is and you know he doesn't want you to treat other people well but you choose to disobey him and treat other people well anyway? Is that what you're telling me?
Uh, no. God doesn't factor into the equation at all for me is my point, because I don't presume to know what some being who presumably created the universe and everything in it could be thinking.
That's nice but my point stands. You treat other people well because of the goodness in your heart. I call this goodness God.
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Deviate
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19298641 - 12/19/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said:
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Deviate said:
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Icelander said:
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For some bizarre and inexplicable reason, God is "testing" us, yes? Just like in the Garden of Eden. There are things we may partake of and things we may not. The choice is ours, and the punishments and rewards are impressive.
That kind of God can suck my shorts. Of course it's a childish idea but then most humans emotional development stalled in junior high.
The utter silliness of god inspiring a book for us to read full of lessons and rules about life is too much for my imagination. I mean the fact that humans, actual adult aged humans, swallow this nonsense and then go around telling others about is the final nail in the stoopid coffin that humanity will finally be put to rest in. And good riddance.
There I said it.
My 2 cents.
If God didn't inspire the Bible, who did? Man and God are not separate, it's only the ego that makes it appear so. Hence anyone who can write from the heart, can channel God, and this is all that the prophets and authors of the Bible did. They simply expressed what was in their hearts in a way that most men could not do on account of being blinded by the selfishness of the ego. Hence, all the that Bible is, is a collection of sayings from wise and holy men who lived in ancient Israel. I can assure, their wisdom is not nonsense. That much is certain. If you believe in the whims of the ego, over timeless spiritual wisdom, then it's you who speak nonsense.
Man is real and there is no proof of your god. So the answer is obvious. It's like saying if god didn't inspire santa claus who did? You're just afraid of being human imo.
There is proof, as St. Paul said God has made his glory, power and divinity known from the beginning of time through his creation. If you look outward, you find an infinitely vast creation (proof of the infinite) and if you look within yourself, you encounter the vastness of your own soul and the light which illuminates it. What more proof of the infinite could you possibly ask for? THe Bible calls this infinite mystery "God" or "I AM" which is the most accurate and to the point name of God in any religion, because really what more can be said about God other than the fact that He is? Or do you deny that reality exists and is infinite?
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Deviate
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19298675 - 12/19/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
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Deviate said: If God didn't inspire the Bible, who did?
Hence, all the that Bible is, is a collection of sayings from wise and holy men who lived in ancient Israel.
If you believe in the whims of the ego, over timeless spiritual wisdom, then it's you who speak nonsense.
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Deviate said: Hey they weren't perfect. Are you?
I wonder why you place so much faith in these ancient flawed human beings.
Personally I think there is much more relevant and honest wisdom from some of the flawed human beings in this very forum, here and now.
Well great, you are entitled to your opinion but I don't see why I cant value both ancient wisdom and the wisdom of people on this forum.
This may come as a shock to you, but most of the ideas discussed on this forum aren't exactly new. Most of the ideas we have on this forum, are influenced by or taken directly from ideas or formed in opposition to, ancient ideas and questions that have been relevant for all human history. I am a big believer in looking back to see how we arrived at where we are today. But if you want to ignore history and form your opinions exclusively based on what people post on the shroomery, thats your prerogative.
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Icelander
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate] 1
#19298681 - 12/19/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You're trying a really sneaky tactic by calling it the infinite but you give yourself away but then calling it "he". The infinite needs no creed nor church nor worship. "He" does.
You're stuck in the finite with your male god idol, body and blood and all that other, imo, egotistical nonsense.
If you truly were posting like it was the infinite, without boundary or description I wouldn't be saying anything at all about it. I'd let you go on your merry way.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19298764 - 12/19/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, I'm not stuck I simply have great respect and admiration for the Christian tradition. The Christian tradition is as a valid as any other. You could start your own religion and honor God in your way but that wouldn't make the Christian tradition any less valid.
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Icelander
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19298903 - 12/19/13 05:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's also a tradition of abuse of humanity. I know you don't care about that but I do. Midwives condemned as witches, tortured into confessing, burned at the stake so their land could be stolen by the church and put the medical profession firmly in the hands of men. How is that a tradition worth following? I could give you a list as long as my arm of abuses of humanity right up to the present by that church you admire so much.
Can you give me any such list from those who follow the philosophy of Taoism? Or any atheist group for that matter? You can't, you won't and as you said you really don't care what the church does as long as you can take holy communion. I've been here eight years and I've never been as stunned by any admission by a religious person. The only thing that comes close for me is Fivepointer's insistence that god chooses to send unsaved babies to hell to burn for eternity as an example to his personal flock of beloved saved so they can see how much he loves them. 
Please save me from all such traditions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19298965 - 12/19/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not to mention they've stunted scientific advancement and indoctrinated guilt in most of western society. I'd say Christianity and the millions that followed it in our country are at the root of the problem with drug prohibition in the U.S.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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Deviate
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19299056 - 12/19/13 05:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: It's also a tradition of abuse of humanity. I know you don't care about that but I do. Midwives condemned as witches, tortured into confessing, burned at the stake so their land could be stolen by the church and put the medical profession firmly in the hands of men. How is that a tradition worth following? I could give you a list as long as my arm of abuses of humanity right up to the present by that church you admire so much.
Can you give me any such list from those who follow the philosophy of Taoism? Or any atheist group for that matter? You can't, you won't and as you said you really don't care what the church does as long as you can take holy communion. I've been here eight years and I've never been as stunned by any admission by a religious person. The only thing that comes close for me is Fivepointer's insistence that god chooses to send unsaved babies to hell to burn for eternity as an example to his personal flock of beloved saved so they can see how much he loves them. 
Please save me from all such traditions.
Yes Christians have abused humanity but that doesn't make Christianity any more or less valuable as a spiritual teaching. You cant say that because Christians did X it means God doesn't exist or that the Bible is wrong. I mean Christianity is simply a language for discussing spiritual experience. So dismissing Christianity because of what Christians have done is a little bit like dismissing German because of the holocaust. Yes, the holocaust was bad but that doesn't mean German is somehow an improper language. But what you are doing is like, everytime I speak German you bring up the holocaust. give it a rest already, would you? I get that you dont like German.
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How is that a tradition worth following?
Thats like asking me how is German a language worth speaking?
Oh and the witch hunts were a mistake. Five years after the Salem witch trials, the town realized they had made a huge mistake.
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Icelander
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19299128 - 12/19/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've already responded to all this several times so I'm not going to beat a dead horse anymore for today at least on that issue.
I will share this though. http://www.vaticancrimes.us/2013/12/sex-abuse-in-catholic-church-10-of.html
And that's just one small issue. One among very many. You keep acting like it's just a bad apple or two in a huge barrel of goodness. How one can justify following a religion and know all this is and ignore it is truly one of the mysteries of existence. And it's not like you need the Catholic church. I mean you have the bible and it's all there to be used as you will without having to associate with such amazing dysfunction.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/19/13 05:40 PM)
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Atrium
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19299984 - 12/19/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: It's also a tradition of abuse of humanity. I know you don't care about that but I do. Midwives condemned as witches, tortured into confessing, burned at the stake so their land could be stolen by the church and put the medical profession firmly in the hands of men. How is that a tradition worth following? I could give you a list as long as my arm of abuses of humanity right up to the present by that church you admire so much.
Can you give me any such list from those who follow the philosophy of Taoism? Or any atheist group for that matter? You can't, you won't and as you said you really don't care what the church does as long as you can take holy communion. I've been here eight years and I've never been as stunned by any admission by a religious person. The only thing that comes close for me is Fivepointer's insistence that god chooses to send unsaved babies to hell to burn for eternity as an example to his personal flock of beloved saved so they can see how much he loves them. 
Please save me from all such traditions.
You're (let's assume) either European or American. How can you live in a country that supported mass genocide on the Native Americans or my people, the Mexicans.
In both instances, that shit was NOT you, or almost anyone you directly know, personal choice and therefore, even if it was mainstream 5 years ago, or widespread on the other side of the planet, you cannot generalize based solely on nitpicking. That, to me, shows that you are immature. Choosing to say that a group of people is stupid or bad because they go by a certain title or creed (American or Christian, doesn't matter) that has a dark side is not an argument at all but is quite prevalent to assume so.
Let other's beliefs stay as they are and don't step in to say one is not right. That's all I want to get across man.
Edit: Probably should have quoted your other paper but this will suffice.
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
Edited by Atrium (12/19/13 08:54 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19300652 - 12/19/13 11:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I've already responded to all this several times so I'm not going to beat a dead horse anymore for today at least on that issue.
I will share this though. http://www.vaticancrimes.us/2013/12/sex-abuse-in-catholic-church-10-of.html
And that's just one small issue. One among very many. You keep acting like it's just a bad apple or two in a huge barrel of goodness. How one can justify following a religion and know all this is and ignore it is truly one of the mysteries of existence. And it's not like you need the Catholic church. I mean you have the bible and it's all there to be used as you will without having to associate with such amazing dysfunction.
I hope you don't ever buy German products, because they are responsible for the holocaust.
The incidence as of sex abuse in the catholic church was no higher than the incidence in public schools, according to many studies Ive read, the main issue was the church authorities did not handle it properly.
Your last statement shows how little you understand about me. What does the Bible have to do with anything? Christianity is a bhakti religion. The idea is to build up love for God. In order to do that, you need to participate in rituals with other people, sing hymns, kneel down before the blessed sacrament, etc. This kind of behavior has effects on the human subconscious, positive healing effects. The Bible is great but it can never take the place of public worship.
Bhakti is not a rational thing. Its not like I made a rational decision to join the catholic church based on a bunch of facts about its moral record. I was lead to the catholic church, because thats what I felt I needed to do at the time. There is no explaining it. I became catholic following a series of LSD trips during which the LSD made it clear to me that that was the route I needed to take. The LSD did not even bring up the sex abuse scandal or anything like that. That was the furthest thing from the LSD's mind. It simply told me, this is the path you must follow, want to know why? too bad. I then had the choice to follow it or not to follow it. I chose to follow it.
There is no rational justification, nor does their need to be. it simply happened.
Edited by Deviate (12/19/13 11:54 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19301564 - 12/20/13 06:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Fuck that shit. I'm not trying to defend my country and I am culpable and responsible for most of the evils my country is currently doing. I'm responsible but outside of killing myself I have to live somewhere and all countries are pretty much the same in this regard. With a church you're not up against any wall. Walking away has no consequences. It's not like the church is all goodness now. You don't have a leg to stand on imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19301575 - 12/20/13 06:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The incidence as of sex abuse in the catholic church was no higher than the incidence in public schools, according to many studies Ive read, the main issue was the church authorities did not handle it properly
I'm not defending public schools either and have many of the same complaints about them so not such a good example.
Carry on with your rituals then. It's easy to see you're fixated and not rational in this regard by your own admission.
I'd rather be a snake handler.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Atrium
Cunt Tickler

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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19301863 - 12/20/13 08:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Fuck that shit. I'm not trying to defend my country and I am culpable and responsible for most of the evils my country is currently doing. I'm responsible but outside of killing myself I have to live somewhere and all countries are pretty much the same in this regard. With a church you're not up against any wall. Walking away has no consequences. It's not like the church is all goodness now. You don't have a leg to stand on imo. 
There you go. It's different because he says so. Guess there's no argument anymore.
The equivalent of practicing spirituality without a congregation is living off the grid without any helping hand in times of need. Just assuming you want someone else there to relay ideas of your god, it is neigh impossible to keep keep the faith without a living testament of a person supporting you beside it all.
Without your fellow believer, without your neighbor in America seeing the same shit you do, it's pretty hard to believe there is others like you. That's all church is to me though I realize others go much too far in my opinion. Rather than learning for themselves, they shun all opposition.
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
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Deviate
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19301993 - 12/20/13 09:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Fuck that shit. I'm not trying to defend my country and I am culpable and responsible for most of the evils my country is currently doing. I'm responsible but outside of killing myself I have to live somewhere and all countries are pretty much the same in this regard. With a church you're not up against any wall. Walking away has no consequences. It's not like the church is all goodness now. You don't have a leg to stand on imo. 
Why do I need a leg to stand on? I have no need to defend my actions or justify them. Its just something that happened to me in my life. Its really not very important. I went to church on sunday. I shopped at the grocery store. THese are just things that happened to me. Its you that is seeing into them some importance, something which is not there in my opinion. I am just living. Just observing life from the standpoint of this body. I go to church and I observe what happens. I take great interest in observing the ritual religious behavior of these people, almost like I am an anthrolopogist. At the same time, I am not just a neutral observer. I also observe myself as a true participant. I notice how worshiping God and participating in rituals effects parts of my being which are not under my rational control. I notice how good it is to acknowledge the reality of these parts of being together which a group of other people who are also acknowledging sacred parts of themselves. I notice our togetherness but also our separation (we all ultimately go back to our own lives in which we are all truly alone). Its you who says "but you can't just live, you have to do this and you have to consider this and what about those people from a hundred years ago?"
Do you see what I am saying? I reject the very notion that I have to take a "rational" approach to life. As long as my actions are stemming from the love in my heart, then I see no reason to over analyze them. My heart tells me thats its alright to go to church, its alright to shop at the grocery store and its alright not to worry too much about these things.
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Sleepwalker
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Deviate]
#19302344 - 12/20/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
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Sleepwalker said:
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Deviate said: If God didn't inspire the Bible, who did?
Hence, all the that Bible is, is a collection of sayings from wise and holy men who lived in ancient Israel.
If you believe in the whims of the ego, over timeless spiritual wisdom, then it's you who speak nonsense.
Quote:
Deviate said: Hey they weren't perfect. Are you?
I wonder why you place so much faith in these ancient flawed human beings.
Personally I think there is much more relevant and honest wisdom from some of the flawed human beings in this very forum, here and now.
Well great, you are entitled to your opinion but I don't see why I cant value both ancient wisdom and the wisdom of people on this forum.
This may come as a shock to you, but most of the ideas discussed on this forum aren't exactly new. Most of the ideas we have on this forum, are influenced by or taken directly from ideas or formed in opposition to, ancient ideas and questions that have been relevant for all human history. I am a big believer in looking back to see how we arrived at where we are today. But if you want to ignore history and form your opinions exclusively based on what people post on the shroomery, thats your prerogative.
I guess you aren't going to address your contradictory statements. What is this tangent? Nothing more than a condescending jab at me.
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Icelander
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium]
#19302487 - 12/20/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Jamesdnh said:
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Icelander said: Fuck that shit. I'm not trying to defend my country and I am culpable and responsible for most of the evils my country is currently doing. I'm responsible but outside of killing myself I have to live somewhere and all countries are pretty much the same in this regard. With a church you're not up against any wall. Walking away has no consequences. It's not like the church is all goodness now. You don't have a leg to stand on imo. 
There you go. It's different because he says so. Guess there's no argument anymore.
The equivalent of practicing spirituality without a congregation is living off the grid without any helping hand in times of need. Just assuming you want someone else there to relay ideas of your god, it is neigh impossible to keep keep the faith without a living testament of a person supporting you beside it all.
Without your fellow believer, without your neighbor in America seeing the same shit you do, it's pretty hard to believe there is others like you. That's all church is to me though I realize others go much too far in my opinion. Rather than learning for themselves, they shun all opposition.
Are you trying to tell me you can't find fellow believers outside of the church?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Atrium
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Icelander]
#19302679 - 12/20/13 12:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Does that mean you can't find fellow Americans in Europe or vise versa? No. It's just rare enough that you may potentially miss them if you don't inquire every single person you see, which is not how our society works. You congregate to places of like minded people.
-------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
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Icelander
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Re: TeenChallenge (They came to my church today) [Re: Atrium] 1
#19302766 - 12/20/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Especially if you're looking for little boys. 
Look dude, if you really don't have the skills to hook up with or create a like minded group to worship with then there's nothing any god will be able to do for you. It can't perform miracles you know.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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