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juggaloblink420
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Registered: 04/07/12
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Loc: Indiana
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No soak/simmer
#19278858 - 12/15/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Whats everyones thoughts on this tek? Ive been using 400ml birdseed to 200 ml water when using a syringe and pressure cooking for 90 min, when pressure drops open and shake until everything is loose with no problems.
But lately ive prepared my jars like this and let them sit for a week without opening until I was ready for em and found the mean green inside, this common with the tek or do I have a faulty PC?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Loc: Van Isle
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be sure to vent the steam before putting your weight on, iprefer to soak/simmer for it's reduction of bursted kernels
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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LifeIzGood
Stranger
Registered: 09/15/13
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Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
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I have been using no soak no simmer for a long time, mostley because it clogs drains etc. If girlfriend can't take a shower because you put 100lbs of wbs through strainer and clogged the drain, your still eating pussy, it's just 2 days old.
So since only like fresh Pro-V pussy, I changed my method to this.
Fill Jars with 400ml wbs 180ml tap water' Let them sit for 4 hours soaking in jar then shake 8 hours later load pressure cooker, I still run my PC for 2 hours because I cut out rinse / some soak This method still activates most of the endospores, some grains will not however which is why I run 2 hour pc runs.
WAY CLEANER AND EZ TO DO -- FUCK SOAK RINSE / SIMMER -- Less than 1% contam, which I linked to plastic lid w/ filter underneath no being able to release steam between lid and filter.
Cheers to fresh pussy!
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juggaloblink420
Stranger

Registered: 04/07/12
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Loc: Indiana
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^^ One way to put it haha.
To my knowledge soaking for endospores was old info, I thought the idea was to just hydrate grain to not burst.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Quote:
juggaloblink420 said: ^^ One way to put it haha.
To my knowledge soaking for endospores was old info, I thought the idea was to just hydrate grain to not burst.
thats exactly what it's for
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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juggaloblink420
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: cronicr]
#19279063 - 12/15/13 12:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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To much old/bad info around anymore =/. So you think my issue isnt the no soak/simmer tek but the way I run my PC with the weight on from turn on to shut off?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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yes you should be venting the steam for a few minutes before putting the weight on
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
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Quote:
juggaloblink420 said: To much old/bad info around anymore =/. So you think my issue isnt the no soak/simmer tek but the way I run my PC with the weight on from turn on to shut off?
That's exactly why you fail.
You are building 15 psi of air pressure. What you want is 15 psi of steam pressure. This means you have to leave the weight off for a few minutes after you see steam venting. This gets rid of all the air in the pressure cooker, ensuring the entire area is saturated with steam. At this point put the weight on to build pressure.
The method of simply putting grains and water in a jar to pressure cook is how we did it for decades. We also had to deal with clumpy grains, a higher fail ratio, and slower colonization due to all the grain dust and dirt. It isn't however the source of your contamination-that's your incorrect pressure cooker operation. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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SuperSillyUs
Proud 'Shitbird'. ®

Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 326
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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I'm confused about the soak/simmer now.
Is soaking the grain, for slightly less than 24 hours to 'hatch' bacterial endospores so many of them can die during pressure cooking, 'old / wrong information'?
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18198507#18198507 <-- FrankHorrigan (Trusted Grower) from seven months ago.
If done for less than 24 hours, does it increase contamination rates?
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StygianKnight
A Mushroom

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 2,717
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The mean green is a fungus, which doesn't hide in endospores, so my bet is on improper PCing. PCing is all about internal jar temperature and since water holds and transfers heat better than air hydrating the grains before PC should allow a more even heat distribution in your jars to kill off everything. Same goes for allowing steam to build up replacing the air.
Soak and simmer gives much cleaner and happier grains especially when using WBS. If you are clogging drains you are doing something wrong, as you should only be dumping dirty water.
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LifeIzGood
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Registered: 09/15/13
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Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
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There are little debris rocks etc in my seed. Doesn't all get caught, this I can be sure of, unless your filtering through coffee filters or something, but even smallest collander or screen lets stuff through, if you do it enough, drains clogged = dirty pussy. I'm sure that I didn't fuck up the draining of seed. If you live solo and don't have a bitch with long hair to help aid the clogging drain, I suppose i'm with you but add little rocks and seeds = clogged.
How is information regarding endospores out of date? Its a good while since I've been lurking here.
So soaking grains is for the SOLE purpose of proper hydration? Not releasing endoS?
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StygianKnight
A Mushroom

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 2,717
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My understanding is that endospores are not an issue with Rye, but may or may not be an issue with WBS. Endospores will show up as bacterial contams, not molds, which are the more common problem, so it seems that it may not be an issue with WBS either. It's certainly possible to test this, do a half/half run in the PC then let them sit.
ETA: I rinse and soak by stirring the WBS in a large bowl then dumping off the top water, keeping all the seed in the bowl, then repeat a few times till the water is mostly clear, then soak for 8 hours (I haven't found any advantage to a 24 hour soak.)
Edited by StygianKnight (12/15/13 02:04 PM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Quote:
FooMan said:
Quote:
likwid said: grains need to be soaked so the endospores germinate, and become susceptible to the heat produced by a PC. If you were to PC first, you wouldn't kill the endospores, and steam sterilizing would probably not take care of the resulting contamination.
I'm tired of hearing people say that grains need to be soaked to kill endospores. If soaking exposes endospores so well, why don't we just soak our grains and steam sterilize them in a regular pot? It's the 250F of heat a PC provides that kills endospores in your grains, not soaking them.
Soak your grains to hydrate them, not to "germinate endospores".
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9586439#9586439
soak for hydration, pc for endo spores
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
Edited by cronicr (12/15/13 02:35 PM)
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SuperSillyUs
Proud 'Shitbird'. ®

Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 326
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: cronicr]
#19279703 - 12/15/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah, soaking obviously won't kill them. That's just silly. It's supposed to expose them so they can be killed by the pressure cooker.
Conflicting opinions online?? Say it ain't so...
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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i don't know where you see conflicting info at?
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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SuperSillyUs
Proud 'Shitbird'. ®

Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 326
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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I believe it's found when I try to find an answer to this question:
Quote:
SuperSillyUs said: I'm confused about the soak/simmer now.
Is soaking the grain, for slightly less than 24 hours to 'hatch' bacterial endospores so many of them can die during pressure cooking, 'old / wrong information'?
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18198507#18198507 <-- FrankHorrigan (Trusted Grower) from seven months ago.
If done for less than 24 hours, does it increase contamination rates?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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no franks pretty much saying the same thing, soak too long and endo spores actually become a problem
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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SuperSillyUs
Proud 'Shitbird'. ®

Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 326
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: cronicr]
#19279771 - 12/15/13 02:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Quote:
One of the important things soaking your grains does is germinate bacterial endospores which can survive sterilization. These endospores can recover in your grains even after PCing and cause bacteria problems later on.
Quote:
I'm tired of hearing people say that grains need to be soaked to kill endospores. If soaking exposes endospores so well, why don't we just soak our grains and steam sterilize them in a regular pot? It's the 250F of heat a PC provides that kills endospores in your grains, not soaking them.
Soak your grains to hydrate them, not to "germinate endospores".
Although, I suppose it really doesn't matter. To me. You still soak/simmer them either way, so... not trying to instigate anything...
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invitro


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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to RR:
When you see steam venting, isn't that loss of air sufficient without taking the weight off? My pc has the locking mechanism which is a metallic cylinder which rises up to seal the pc when the pressure goes up. For a few minutes before it raises, it's leaking air and some water puddles up around it while it hisses. Even supposing you didn't remove the air, I don't see why this would prevent steam from forming in the headspace of the pc. Can you elaborate on this point?
My pc has a rocker/weight the pc you have in your videos has a different weight with markings "10" and "15", I don't have those, I only have the ability to do 15psi according to the manufacturer. So the differences in the pc style may be causing some confusion?
Thanks
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LifeIzGood
Stranger
Registered: 09/15/13
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Thanks for clearing that up and making sure I haven't gone batshit crazy, I use WBS and will continue to soak for endospores to become active, then pressure cook for 2hrs.
Cheers!
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Quote:
LifeIzGood said: Thanks for clearing that up and making sure I haven't gone batshit crazy, I use WBS and will continue to soak for endospores to become activehydration purposes, then pressure cook for 2hrs.
Cheers!
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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LifeIzGood
Stranger
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: cronicr]
#19280404 - 12/15/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok, I am batshit crazy I suppose.
Was it not just posted that soaking activates endoS in WBS?
How long has this been considered old info. I'm for sure going into a deeper investigation now. Along with my own g2g test on a case of jars, Is there anyone who has done an experiment on this?
I do love this site, glad to be back!
Cheers!
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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people have been experimenting with this for years rr himself even stated in this thread that the no soak/simmer use to be a standard
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18958259#18958259
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Endospores are very real and a problem if not properly dealt with.
Simmering dry grains will hydrate them, as will soaking. However, if you boil or simmer dry grains, they expand too fast and many will burst. Burst grains spill starch and are harder for the mycelium to colonize. This can and does cause problems later.
Soaking grains in hot water hydrates them without bursting. If one follows this procedure, the boil is to get them hot enough to steam dry before loading into jars. Other growers use different procedures, but all of them involve getting the grains to the correct moisture content and then sterilizing.
Endospores do not need to germinate to be killed. Stinky, fermented grains will have far more endospores than the original dry grain simply because endospore forming bacteria will begin to form new endospores within hours of germination. Simply hydrate the grains before pressure cooking for at least 4 hours. When the grains are hydrated, the hard shell of the endospore is also hydrated, thus it will easily be nuked in the pressure cooker whether it has germinated or not. RR
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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LifeIzGood
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Registered: 09/15/13
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Word...
It's all coming together now.
Thank You!
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krypto2000
Unknown


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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: invitro]
#19280660 - 12/15/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said: to RR:
When you see steam venting, isn't that loss of air sufficient without taking the weight off? My pc has the locking mechanism which is a metallic cylinder which rises up to seal the pc when the pressure goes up. For a few minutes before it raises, it's leaking air and some water puddles up around it while it hisses. Even supposing you didn't remove the air, I don't see why this would prevent steam from forming in the headspace of the pc. Can you elaborate on this point?
My pc has a rocker/weight the pc you have in your videos has a different weight with markings "10" and "15", I don't have those, I only have the ability to do 15psi according to the manufacturer. So the differences in the pc style may be causing some confusion?
Thanks
I'm now wondering this too. I've always left the rocker on my PC the whole time. My PC sounds like the same as yours btw, it's got a pressure valve that shoots steam out for a bit which eventually builds enough pressure to close the valve at which point it begins to build pressure. I've never noticed a contamination problem after the fact even when only cooking for an hour. I'm guessing we're both fine, but I am now wondering if I'm doing it wrong, I never read the manual for my PC fwiw.
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redflackal
Archduke of Marijuanaville
Registered: 09/19/12
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Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Quote:
When you see steam venting, isn't that loss of air sufficient without taking the weight off? My pc has the locking mechanism which is a metallic cylinder which rises up to seal the pc when the pressure goes up. For a few minutes before it raises, it's leaking air and some water puddles up around it while it hisses. Even supposing you didn't remove the air, I don't see why this would prevent steam from forming in the headspace of the pc. Can you elaborate on this point?
If you do not allow the pc to vent out all of the oxygen, it will only let small amounts of water evaporate and will keep most of it down due to the pressure created.
When you begin a pc you always start with the regulator (the weight) OFF. This is to allow the rising steam to force all of the oxygen out, or else you'll just have some hot air and some boiling water.
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krypto2000
Unknown


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So if we see steam coming out of the PC before it builds up pressure then it's safe to assume we're good?
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Quote:
krypto2000 said: So if we see steam coming out of the PC before it builds up pressure then it's safe to assume we're good?
you should let steam vent for at least a few minutes before putting the toggle or weight on. That also helps pre-heat everything
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (12/15/13 07:23 PM)
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krypto2000
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Well that's how mine seems to do, just as the previous poster said, we might have the same model even. First air will shoot out making a hissing sound, then steam will shoot out and water will form around the plug/valve which starts to boil, it'll do that for anywhere from 3-10 minutes I'd say, and then it will be forced up and close. My pressure cooker also vents a good bit of steam as it cooks anyway because if I turn the stove down so that it's quiet and hardly vents any then it drops down to about 13psi so I guess any air would simply vent out then as well.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
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Loc: Nibiru
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When you first see steam, it is mixed with air. If you have your weight on the whole time, you may have the pressure but not the heat at first.
In other words, your temperature will be lower at first because part of the pressure is air pressure and not steam pressure.
As time goes on, more of the air will be pushed out till it's just steam. Once the air is out and it's just steam at 15psi, that's when you need to start your timer.
The best way to make sure you have 15psi of steam pressure is to let the PC vent steady steam for 10 mins before you put the wight on.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18026146#18026146
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: Steam venting
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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krypto2000
Unknown


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Damn, well I'd like to leave my weight on if there's no point since it's less work, it seems to be working and I've done it for awhile, but I really can't know if I'm doing it right now or not since I don't have the manual.
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invitro


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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I got a 22 quart presto, model 01781 or 01780 I think. It's an older model I got used. It seems like if there were excess air it would escape on it's own when the psi went to 15. I never have cracked jars so I'm not too worried about pre-heating the jars. Mine didn't come with a manual, I suppose I should read up on this. I did read the manual for the smaller one I had and it never mentioned anything about this afaik.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: invitro]
#19282914 - 12/16/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said: I got a 22 quart presto, model 01781 or 01780 I think. It's an older model I got used. It seems like if there were excess air it would escape on it's own when the psi went to 15. I never have cracked jars so I'm not too worried about pre-heating the jars. Mine didn't come with a manual, I suppose I should read up on this. I did read the manual for the smaller one I had and it never mentioned anything about this afaik.
it's pretty much the same for all PCers lid on valve or weight off let steam vent 10 minutes put the toggle or weight on then when it starts to vent @ 15 psi turn down the heat to maintain 15 psi
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
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Quote:
krypto2000 said: So if we see steam coming out of the PC before it builds up pressure then it's safe to assume we're good?
No.
The steam should be hot enough to burn the skin off your finger if you hold it over the vent too long. Only then should you put on the weight.
If you just stick the weight on and go without venting, it will take at least 45 minutes after pressure is reached before all the air gets naturally belched out through the regulator nozzle/weight. Until then, you have 15 psi of air pressure and that's not going to sterilize anything. You can easily verify this yourselves if you have an infrared thermometer. Until all the air gets out, the lid won't get over about 200F/90C.
If your pressure cooker has an automatic valve which closes based on either the temperature or velocity of the escaping gasses, that should be sufficient to vent the air out. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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StygianKnight
A Mushroom

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 2,717
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Endospores do not need to germinate to be killed. Stinky, fermented grains will have far more endospores than the original dry grain simply because endospore forming bacteria will begin to form new endospores within hours of germination. Simply hydrate the grains before pressure cooking for at least 4 hours. When the grains are hydrated, the hard shell of the endospore is also hydrated, thus it will easily be nuked in the pressure cooker whether it has germinated or not. RR
This is inaccurate. Endospores are like little hibernation chambers that form when conditions get rough and there's very little nutrients, the do not form as part of the bacterias normal life cycle in nutrient rich environments. Oversoaking will not cause endospore development. That fermentation smell is due to fungal yeasts not bacterial endospores.
[Edit to fix broken quotes]
Edited by StygianKnight (12/16/13 05:09 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Quote:
StygianKnight said:
This is inaccurate. Endospores are like little hibernation chambers that form when conditions get rough and there's very little nutrients,
the do not form as part of the bacterias normal life cycle in nutrient rich environments.
Oversoaking will not cause endospore development.
That fermentation smell is due to fungal yeasts not bacterial endospores.
1. mostly true this is what they put in bio text books. When you're dealing with millions of organisms you have some small percentage that will produce endospores.
2. Enough of the time to say that's their normal behavior yes, but even if it were true 99.99% of the time we are dealing with so many organisms that you do have some endospore development
3. Not directly, but it's a numbers game.
4. mostly due to fungal yeasts
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