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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: LifeIzGood]
    #19280029 - 12/15/13 04:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LifeIzGood said:
Thanks for clearing that up and making sure I haven't gone batshit crazy, I use WBS and will continue to soak for endospores to become activehydration purposes, then pressure cook for 2hrs.

Cheers!



:stirthepot:


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OfflineLifeIzGood
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: cronicr]
    #19280404 - 12/15/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, I am batshit crazy I suppose.

Was it not just posted that soaking activates endoS in WBS?

How long has this been considered old info. I'm for sure going into a deeper investigation now. Along with my own g2g test on a case of jars, Is there anyone who has done an experiment on this?


I do love this site, glad to be back!

Cheers!


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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: LifeIzGood]
    #19280527 - 12/15/13 06:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

people have been experimenting with this for years
rr himself even stated in this thread that the no soak/simmer use to be a standard


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: LifeIzGood]
    #19280528 - 12/15/13 06:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18958259#18958259
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Endospores are very real and a problem if not properly dealt with.

Simmering dry grains will hydrate them, as will soaking.  However, if you boil or simmer dry grains, they expand too fast and many will burst.  Burst grains spill starch and are harder for the mycelium to colonize.  This can and does cause problems later.

Soaking grains in hot water hydrates them without bursting.  If one follows this procedure, the boil is to get them hot enough to steam dry before loading into jars. Other growers use different procedures, but all of them involve getting the grains to the correct moisture content and then sterilizing.

Endospores do not need to germinate to be killed.  Stinky, fermented grains will have far more endospores than the original dry grain simply because endospore forming bacteria will begin to form new endospores within hours of germination.  Simply hydrate the grains before pressure cooking for at least 4 hours.  When the grains are hydrated, the hard shell of the endospore is also hydrated, thus it will easily be nuked in the pressure cooker whether it has germinated or not.
RR




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OfflineLifeIzGood
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19280608 - 12/15/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Word...

It's all coming together now.

Thank You!


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: invitro]
    #19280660 - 12/15/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

invitro said:
to RR:

When you see steam venting, isn't that loss of air sufficient without taking the weight off?  My pc has the locking mechanism which is a metallic cylinder which rises up to seal the pc when the pressure goes up.  For a few minutes before it raises, it's leaking air and some water puddles up around it while it hisses.  Even supposing you didn't remove the air, I don't see why this would prevent steam from forming in the headspace of the pc.  Can you elaborate on this point?

My pc has a rocker/weight the pc you have in your videos has a different weight with markings "10" and "15", I don't have those, I only have the ability to do 15psi according to the manufacturer.
So the differences in the pc style may be causing some confusion?

Thanks




I'm now wondering this too. I've always left the rocker on my PC the whole time. My PC sounds like the same as yours btw, it's got a pressure valve that shoots steam out for a bit which eventually builds enough pressure to close the valve at which point it begins to build pressure. I've never noticed a contamination problem after the fact even when only cooking for an hour. I'm guessing we're both fine, but I am now wondering if I'm doing it wrong, I never read the manual for my PC fwiw.


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Offlineredflackal
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: krypto2000]
    #19280741 - 12/15/13 07:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

When you see steam venting, isn't that loss of air sufficient without taking the weight off?  My pc has the locking mechanism which is a metallic cylinder which rises up to seal the pc when the pressure goes up.  For a few minutes before it raises, it's leaking air and some water puddles up around it while it hisses.  Even supposing you didn't remove the air, I don't see why this would prevent steam from forming in the headspace of the pc.  Can you elaborate on this point?




If you do not allow the pc to vent out all of the oxygen, it will only let small amounts of water evaporate and will keep most of it down due to the pressure created.

When you begin a pc you always start with the regulator (the weight) OFF. This is to allow the rising steam to force all of the oxygen out, or else you'll just have some hot air and some boiling water.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: redflackal]
    #19280789 - 12/15/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So if we see steam coming out of the PC before it builds up pressure then it's safe to assume we're good?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: krypto2000]
    #19280794 - 12/15/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
So if we see steam coming out of the PC before it builds up pressure then it's safe to assume we're good?



you should let steam vent for at least a few minutes before putting the toggle or weight on. That also helps pre-heat everything


Edited by Trusted cuItivator (12/15/13 07:23 PM)


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19280849 - 12/15/13 07:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well that's how mine seems to do, just as the previous poster said, we might have the same model even. First air will shoot out making a hissing sound, then steam will shoot out and water will form around the plug/valve which starts to boil, it'll do that for anywhere from 3-10 minutes I'd say, and then it will be forced up and close. My pressure cooker also vents a good bit of steam as it cooks anyway because if I turn the stove down so that it's quiet and hardly vents any then it drops down to about 13psi so I guess any air would simply vent out then as well.


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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19280897 - 12/15/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

When you first see steam, it is mixed with air. If you have your weight on the whole time, you may have the pressure but not the heat at first.

In other words, your temperature will be lower at first because part of the pressure is air pressure and not steam pressure.

As time goes on, more of the air will be pushed out till it's just steam. Once the air is out and it's just steam at 15psi, that's when you need to start your timer.

The best way to make sure you have 15psi of steam pressure is to let the PC vent steady steam for 10 mins before you put the wight on.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18026146#18026146
Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Steam venting






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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19280917 - 12/15/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Damn, well I'd like to leave my weight on if there's no point since it's less work, it seems to be working and I've done it for awhile, but I really can't know if I'm doing it right now or not since I don't have the manual.


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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: krypto2000]
    #19281323 - 12/15/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I got a 22 quart presto, model 01781 or 01780 I think. It's an older model I got used.  It seems like if there were excess air it would escape on it's own when the psi went to 15.  I never have cracked jars so I'm not too worried about pre-heating the jars.  Mine didn't come with a manual, I suppose I should read up on this.  I did read the manual for the smaller one I had and it never mentioned anything about this afaik.


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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: invitro]
    #19282914 - 12/16/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

invitro said:
I got a 22 quart presto, model 01781 or 01780 I think. It's an older model I got used.  It seems like if there were excess air it would escape on it's own when the psi went to 15.  I never have cracked jars so I'm not too worried about pre-heating the jars.  Mine didn't come with a manual, I suppose I should read up on this.  I did read the manual for the smaller one I had and it never mentioned anything about this afaik.




it's pretty much the same for all PCers lid on valve or weight off let steam vent 10 minutes put the toggle or weight on then when it starts to vent @ 15 psi turn down the heat to maintain 15 psi


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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: krypto2000]
    #19282935 - 12/16/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
So if we see steam coming out of the PC before it builds up pressure then it's safe to assume we're good?




No.

The steam should be hot enough to burn the skin off your finger if you hold it over the vent too long.  Only then should you put on the weight.

If you just stick the weight on and go without venting, it will take at least 45 minutes after pressure is reached before all the air gets naturally belched out through the regulator nozzle/weight.  Until then, you have 15 psi of air pressure and that's not going to sterilize anything.  You can easily verify this yourselves if you have an infrared thermometer.  Until all the air gets out, the lid won't get over about 200F/90C.

If your pressure cooker has an automatic valve which closes based on either the temperature or velocity of the escaping gasses, that should be sufficient to vent the air out.
RR


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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19283396 - 12/16/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Endospores do not need to germinate to be killed.  Stinky, fermented grains will have far more endospores than the original dry grain simply because endospore forming bacteria will begin to form new endospores within hours of germination.  Simply hydrate the grains before pressure cooking for at least 4 hours.  When the grains are hydrated, the hard shell of the endospore is also hydrated, thus it will easily be nuked in the pressure cooker whether it has germinated or not.
RR



This is inaccurate.
Endospores are like little hibernation chambers that form when conditions get rough and there's very little nutrients, the do not form as part of the bacterias normal life cycle in nutrient rich environments.  Oversoaking will not cause endospore development.
That fermentation smell is due to fungal yeasts not bacterial endospores.

[Edit to fix broken quotes]


Edited by StygianKnight (12/16/13 05:09 PM)


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Re: No soak/simmer [Re: StygianKnight]
    #19284337 - 12/16/13 02:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

StygianKnight said:

This is inaccurate.
Endospores are like little hibernation chambers that form when conditions get rough and there's very little nutrients,

the do not form as part of the bacterias normal life cycle in nutrient rich environments. 

Oversoaking will not cause endospore development.

That fermentation smell is due to fungal yeasts not bacterial endospores.





1. mostly true this is what they put in bio text books. When you're dealing with millions of organisms you have some small percentage that will produce endospores.

2. Enough of the time to say that's their normal behavior yes, but even if it were true 99.99% of the time we are dealing with so many organisms that you do have some endospore development

3. Not directly, but it's a numbers game.

4. mostly due to fungal yeasts


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