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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: hTx]
#19296753 - 12/19/13 06:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: however if two people fall in love, it seems always conditional, thus an illusion.
hTx says: Love is an illusion because it's conditional.
We've struck ideological bedrock here.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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hTx
(:


Registered: 03/27/13
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Yeah, maybe.
:p
Was making an observation, say two people fall in love blah blah, one loses his job, changes his spiritual beliefs, or whatever and all of a sudden, "love" falls apart. Beyond that, even your state of consciousness (not yours specifically, people in general) is like this as well. Dependent upon certain conditions, people, success or lack thereof, money and events beyond ones control.
An illusion than, obviously, since what was felt changed into something different based on external and sometimes internal events. I not only believe but experience something unconditional, but only sometimes will slip, and feel a little ashamed for doing so, but also it's kind of funny. Seems like so many are so worried about some image they think they are putting on, yet a lot of the time... "That's not me!"
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: hTx]
#19296896 - 12/19/13 07:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: Was making an observation, say two people fall in love blah blah, one loses his job, changes his spiritual beliefs, or whatever and all of a sudden, "love" falls apart. Beyond that, even your state of consciousness (not yours specifically, people in general) is like this as well. Dependent upon certain conditions, people, success or lack thereof, money and events beyond ones control.
Yes, definitely, I enjoy the picture you're painting here of the changing state of consciousness in relation to these internal and external factors, be they influenceable or not. Consciousness certainly knows its cycles. I like to look at its evolving point of equilibrium within its undergoing these changes.
Quote:
An illusion than, obviously, since what was felt changed into something different based on external and sometimes internal events.
I think this part of your point of view in particular prompted my smirking. I don't see how the fact that a phenomenon changes thereby implies that it was illusory. As far as I know, impermanence pervades all phenomena, but this doesn't make them less real.
Quote:
I not only believe but experience something unconditional, but only sometimes will slip, and feel a little ashamed for doing so, but also it's kind of funny. Seems like so many are so worried about some image they think they are putting on, yet a lot of the time... "That's not me!"
Definitely. That which we choose to identify ourselves with can be both extremely limited and limiting.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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hTx
(:


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
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I see your point with regards to the illusion conclusion and yeah, I mean really who am I to say what's real and not real, just because it changes based upon certain conditions..it's probably all part of the process towards self-actualization, unconditional states of consciousness and the like, just as real yet fragile real, transitory.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: hTx]
#19296955 - 12/19/13 07:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I mean really who am I to say what's real and not real
You're hTx. What did I win?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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hTx
(:


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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: Icelander]
#19296975 - 12/19/13 07:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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A smile
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: hTx]
#19296990 - 12/19/13 08:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: I see your point with regards to the illusion conclusion and yeah, I mean really who am I to say what's real and not real, just because it changes based upon certain conditions..
Sounds like the name of an episode of The Big Bang Theory.
Quote:
it's probably all part of the process towards self-actualization, unconditional states of consciousness and the like, just as real yet fragile real, transitory.
I've found that one of the interesting things about love is the process of personal development that comes with sorting out how one's mind functions in respect to it. I think this relates to what you're referring to regarding self-actualization and unconditional states of consciousness.
Sometimes we just have to revel in the tug-of-war that results from the interplay of the various structures of our nervous system and the chemical and mechanical exertions the rest of the body has on it, like you were mentioning earlier with this: "I not only believe but experience something unconditional, but only sometimes will slip, and feel a little ashamed for doing so, but also it's kind of funny. ". There's a lot of loci of control nestled within us, vying for influence, and synchronizing them and finding that sweet spot of higher function and maintaining it doesn't usually come so easy.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Hobozen

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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: Icelander]
#19297103 - 12/19/13 08:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Then don't complain about "indirect". It's part of the play.
And me calling someone out for what I see as grubby play is my form of play.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: Hobozen]
#19297194 - 12/19/13 09:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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And I'm calling you out for whining that it's grubby.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Hobozen

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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: Icelander]
#19297228 - 12/19/13 09:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just cuz you think it's whining doesn't make it so
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MotherNaturesSon
Neuromancer ☿



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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: Icelander]
#19297578 - 12/19/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Finally, some actual discussions about actual thoughts and concepts! 
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hTx said: Funny how I defined what I meant by illusion with the very post where you believe I shrugged off your question. If you read carefully you will see what I mean by illusion. I admit to being abstract with the concept, forgive me.
And you be think by saying you live in your own reality tunnel is attacking you personally, if it was I would be banned, trust me. We all see the world through the fog of our perceptions and electrical signals in our OWN brains, the nervous system itself, your own unique everything.
All apologies if you were offended but no harm meant brethren.
Love is an illusion when it is conditional, when one of conditions are not met, love fades. Sometimes love creates illusions. Ignoring certain information, imposing our own. This applies both ways. Most of the way we view the world is an illusion, created by our nervous system. Your nervous system therefore controls your reality this way and unless aware enough of one's condition, will react accordingly and the feedback loop begins. Becoming conscious of one's own subconscious and unconscious behaviors is true human potential for free will. Family love for the most part is the closest to unconditional, although, that too has its conditions.
Ime, and please this has nothing to do with enlightenment, true unconditional love for ones self is possible, if ever realized the illusions will flee from your ecstasy. That is freedom, little else.
Well thank you for telling me to "figure it out yourself" after three separate requests to do it that is funny! Well it takes good character to admit to have been mistaken and I respect that. No actual offence has been taken, I was just going for the semi humorous overkill argument, so I might have seemed more shocked with you than I in actuality was. Let's put that behind us now.
I agree that everyone has their own perception and their own unique experience of reality. That however, does not imply inferiority in relation to anyone or mean anything in particular either, as for example, your perception of 'love being an illusion' is not beyond that said "tunnel" principle- it your own experience and your own perception.
While I agree that love that is overly tied to conditions is not as refined as love as a condition itself is, I find it difficult to agree that illusions are created by the CNS central nervous system). That is why I asked you to define illusion. I needed to know wether it's the biological kind of illusion (created by various physical conditions affecting the CNS) or the so called philosophical kind of illusion. And I'm sorry to say google defined illusion the biological way.
But when talking about philosophical illusions- there is an whole array of opinions on what constitutes an illusion. When does a perception become an illusion? Where is that fine line? In your own case (as an example) it would seem that that which is ruled by conditions is an illusion. That is to say that real perception is that which has no condition, which is everlasting as it does not depend on them to assume certain shapes.
This is not a new idea, the unconditional has been a theme of philosophy both in the east and the west. However, I think it is a part of an eternity complex. The logic lies in the ideology that if all bad things arise from certain conditions and that good things are only so temporarily because of the very same fleeting conditions- the only true and pure thing would be something without condition, thus it would also last forever and prevail anything. Therefore all other experience in an illusion, in other words "false" or "not real".
However I challenge such a notion. fireworks_god has already put it very nicely. Merely because something in impermanent doesn't make it any less real. It is merely a process. Philosophical or experiential eternity may lurk somewhere out there in a very exotic form, but I am almost certain than impermanence pervades within it, creating a sort of paradoxical unity. Love is an experience. And in my own opinion, we should not reject things that are impermanent, neither should we be slaves to the pursuit of eternity. In essence, nothing is an illusion. Everything is a valid experience.
In my own vocabulary, a philosophical illusion is a mental construct consisting of thoughts, beliefs and (most often) habits that the individual is either aware, (but usually) semi-aware or not aware of. These constructs are at fault for putting the overall consciousness in a state of confusion or other negative and unbalanced states. These states result in behaviour that leads to experiences ranging from unsatisfactory to full of suffering for oneself and/or others.
So therefore I think you can understand when I say that I disagree with your initial statement (Love is an Illusion). However do agree that one can have illusions concerning love, which makes it tainted and unstable.
That's how I would put it. Don't think it's right, but if you get it through your own mind then thats all that matters
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Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII: "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." "The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."
Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/19/13 11:20 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: Hobozen]
#19298356 - 12/19/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
blankk said: Just cuz you think it's whining doesn't make it so 
Love that avatar.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Love is an Illusion [Re: hTx]
#19299582 - 12/19/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Everything could be said to be an illusion but if this were the case love would be no less an illusion. Therefore we must define what is real to make love unreal but it seems to end up being a false analogy. And a mess.
I think the reality may be that everything is appropriate and 'real' in it's own context.
Romantic love is really romantic love. Appreciation for toilet paper really is appreciation for toilet paper. Within those analogies I do not mean to examine the dignity of either. Or, as one of my redneck friends likes to say "It is what it is". Often amended with "It ain't what it ain't", which is apparently not just the truth, but funny.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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