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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlineall this beauty
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Registered: 02/13/13
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Creationism
    #19274643 - 12/14/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Here's a current story out of the U.S. state of Texas concerning the Judeo/Christian mythological nonsense known as "Creationism."

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/state-politics/20131212-gop-lieutenant-governor-hopefuls-back-creationism.ece

Read it and weep, dear brothers and sisters.

This is what, in December 2013, a large percentage of the world's population believes to be objective reality.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: Creationism [Re: all this beauty]
    #19275527 - 12/14/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well ceationism is much closer to the truth than darwin's theory, that's for sure.

Of course the world is more than 6,000 years and the devil didnt put dinosaurs bones here to destroy peoples faith, but are you talking about protestant young earth creationism or the idea of a creator?

The way I see it, we are all spirit children of the great spirit and even the physical world is ultimately made of spirit (interesting science does not necessarily disagree with this, because E=mc2 so energy can take on the appearance of being solid matter).

But this insistence that the earth is only 6,000 years old and was created as is, is not a part of Catholic or Orthodox Christian church doctrine. This is an idea that became popular, mostly in the United States, after the reformation. Because protestants broke away from the authority of the Catholic and Anglican churches, they made the Bible their new authority. Yet there was no authority telling them how to interpret the Bible, so they concluded the Bible must be literally true, since if it wasn't, that would suggest the need for some authority to properly interpret it and this would damage one of the most fundamental protestant doctrine, sola scriptura.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate] * 2
    #19275629 - 12/14/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Well ceationism is much closer to the truth than darwin's theory, that's for sure.





Creationism:zero evidence. Evolution:Mountains upon mountains of evidence.

That is, of course, whether or not you care about the facts derived from the real world. :shrug:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: White Beard]
    #19275684 - 12/14/13 05:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What is this "real world" you speak of?


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate] * 2
    #19275740 - 12/14/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The thing we're both experiencing sensory input from. At least I assume you're having a similar experience to me.


Edited by White Beard (12/14/13 05:34 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: White Beard]
    #19275806 - 12/14/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

And that is what is so problematic when it comes to these sorts of questions. People assume that other people are experiencing reality in the same way that they are, and therefore they assume that what appears to make logical sense to them, should make logical sense to everyone else or that anyone who does not agree with them is not logical.

This is a complete fallacy as far as I am concerned. From my perspective, perception is relative to the state of consciousness of the perceiver. For example, when you dream it seems as though you are experiencing an objective world in your dream and yet when you wake up, you realize the dream world was merely relative. One could dream up a world and then get into a debate with a dreamed up person over the age of the dreamed up world. If one were to go by evidence collected from the dream world, it might appear quite old and yet clearly the dream world only came into existence when the dream began.

People tend to dismiss their dreams and assume the waking state is real but many spiritual teachings and mystics have pointed out the fallacy in this. This being a spirituality and mysticism forum, I hardly think we can afford to make these sorts of assumptions.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19275856 - 12/14/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's a good response. Personally in my day to day life I do make the assumption that I'm living in an objective because it has made things easier to deal with.

But fair enough, lets not make that assumption. Then whether creationism is true or whether evolution is true are both unknowns.

If we do make the assumption that there is an objective world, then evolution wins from evidence(imo).

How, in your opinion, would creationism trump evolution if we don't make the assumption of an objective world?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Creationism [Re: White Beard]
    #19275943 - 12/14/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Up until humans I think all living things have made that assumption for very practical reasons.  One can play with the idea of a non objective reality but if you want to survive here lets see you do that without some kind of belief in objective reality.  Speeding cars do kill as as far as I've seen. And never try to tackle a wild lion with your farts.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: White Beard]
    #19275951 - 12/14/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well if the waking state is dreamlike in nature (and this is how it appears to me, not that I don't get caught up thinking its real but I also get caught up thinking my nighttime dreams are real) then there must be a dreamer.

Just as you would not theorize that your nighttime dream state came about as a result of physical processes experienced in your dream state, we cannot assume the waking world came about as a result of processes which appear to occur in the waking state.

Instead, in order to determine where things "originate from" (and this is course assuming they have a point of origin) we must look back at who the dreamer is. Who is experiencing these states? In my experience, the consciousness which experiences these states is fixed, while the different states simply pass before it. This theory fits all the scientific evidence just as well as any other theory and possesses a great deal of explanatory power.

Now if this is true, then the idea that the world was created by a non physical intelligence is much closer to the truth than Darwinian evolution. Of course this doesn't deny that the human body "evolved" from older species but the point is that all of this is simply part of the dream of creation, just as everything in your nighttime dreams is part of the dream.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19275970 - 12/14/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

One difference with dreaming asleep and dreaming awake is in the effect.  I can dream my best friend died and wake up and find them well.  Yet if I see them die in my waking world that's it for them.  This is a big difference imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Icelander]
    #19275973 - 12/14/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Up until humans I think all living things have made that assumption for very practical reasons.  One can play with the idea of a non objective reality but if you want to survive here lets see you do that without some kind of belief in objective reality.  Speeding cars do kill as as far as I've seen. And never try to tackle a wild lion with your farts.





In my experience, our survival instincts are generally unimpeded by our views on the nature of existence. I have lived in the world while entertaining a large number of different worldviews/theologies, some of them quite radical by conventional standards, and I never noticed any effects on my ability to avoid dangers like speeding cars. It simply happens. I come to a road, I look both ways before crossing. There is no theorizing necessarily at this level of existence. Its all taken care of by the machinery of the body and the senses.

Look at India. The belief that the world is illusory has been widespread there for thousands of years. Do you see Indians getting hit by cars because they've lost the ability to discern physical danger? I guess one could make that argument based on the chaos of their roadways but I think you get my point.


Edited by Deviate (12/14/13 06:36 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Icelander]
    #19275979 - 12/14/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
One difference with dreaming asleep and dreaming awake is in the effect.  I can dream my best friend died and wake up and find them well.  Yet if I see them die in my waking world that's it for them.  This is a big difference imo.




But your friend can die in the waking state and then appear alive and well in the dream state after that.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19275989 - 12/14/13 06:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

At some point you had to learn these things and at some point you tested their validity in some way.  My point was however that you can't equate the two.  "Objective" reality cannot be ignored. The other kind easily can with no physical consequences and likely no other kind of consequences.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Icelander]
    #19275994 - 12/14/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
At some point you had to learn these things and at some point you tested their validity in some way.  My point was however that you can't equate the two.  "Objective" reality cannot be ignored. The other kind easily can with no physical consequences and likely no other kind of consequences.




No, it cannot. When you dream if you are thirsty you need dream water to quench your dream thirst. As long as you are caught in the dream world, things have consequences which cannot be ignored just like in the waking state.

The only difference is that the waking state is long and the dream state short.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19276019 - 12/14/13 06:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry, wrong.  You cannot die of thirst in a dream.  You will awaken alive and the water you need you will then obtain. But ignore it then and all dreaming  ends forever as far as we know.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19276039 - 12/14/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said: Its all taken care of by the machinery of the body and the senses.




But aren't these part of an objective world?


Quote:

Deviate said:
Well if the waking state is dreamlike in nature (and this is how it appears to me, not that I don't get caught up thinking its real but I also get caught up thinking my nighttime dreams are real) then there must be a dreamer.

Just as you would not theorize that your nighttime dream state came about as a result of physical processes experienced in your dream state, we cannot assume the waking world came about as a result of processes which appear to occur in the waking state.





Usually in my experience when I question a dream world I realize it's a dream and either wake up or become lucid and can bend the rules of the dream. That doesn't happen in the waking state.


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InvisibleTheMaster
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Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
Re: Creationism [Re: White Beard]
    #19276568 - 12/14/13 08:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The only instance I can recall of something occuring in a dream and the "real" world for me was pissing the bed many years ago. :wink:

My dad told me a while back that on a Florida trip like thirty years ago where there was a huge lottery drawing coming up being plastered on the news. He had a dream the night before the day of the drawing where he saw numbers popping up. It freaked him out and he woke up. There were only five numbers he saw before he woke up and according to him they were five of the six numbers drawn later that night. His only real vice is Reese's peanut butter cups, so he never bought a ticket. :confused:

He is not the type to make something like that up, and my mom and grandparents confirmed it. Take it however you like, but that is some crazy precognition and still makes me question the true ability of the mind.


--------------------
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Icelander]
    #19277071 - 12/14/13 11:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sorry, wrong.  You cannot die of thirst in a dream.  You will awaken alive and the water you need you will then obtain. But ignore it then and all dreaming  ends forever as far as we know.




Well, yes and no. I have died in a dream before, although not from thirst but of course I woke up still alive in the morning.

Quote:


But aren't these part of an objective world?





How can they be part of the objective world if there isn't an objective world? In the dream state we have a dream body with dream senses and in the waking state we have a waking body with waking senses. Both are seen in the mind only.

I neither acknowledge, nor deny the existence of an objective world.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19277141 - 12/14/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that from a typical western point of view, evolution looks like a much better theory than creationism. This is because the western mindset is built on the assumption that the sensory world really is an objective reality that exists independently of us. It's based on the assumption that physical reality is the most fundamental level of reality and the assumption of separation and of course it is intellectually based, with logic and evidence used to support its contentions.

The eastern view of reality is quite different however. There isn't this assumption that we are separate from the world, nor is it taken for granted that the world is a real objective physical reality existing independently of the mind. Instead they view the world more as a projection or emanation from deeper levels of a non physical reality. This idea is based on what one perceives from increasingly subtler states of mind. In my opinion, this view of reality is much closer to the truth than the western viewpoint. Even in the west, Christian mystics have described this revelation, for example meister eckhart stated that the eye with which he sees God and the eye with which God sees him, is the same eye. But unlike in the east where spiritual insights are taken seriously by the ordinary person, western thinkers tend to dismiss/ignore anything that lacks external physical evidence. Unfortunately, the eastern view of reality appears quite radical and contrary to common sense to the average western intellect. In order to accept it one would have to acknowledge that they have been completely mispercieving reality for their entire life.

Yet if one wants to be truly rational in the western sense, one must admit that it is quite possible they have been mispercieving reality.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
    #19277412 - 12/15/13 01:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Sorry, wrong.  You cannot die of thirst in a dream.  You will awaken alive and the water you need you will then obtain. But ignore it then and all dreaming  ends forever as far as we know.




Well, yes and no. I have died in a dream before, although not from thirst but of course I woke up still alive in the morning.




I neither acknowledge, nor deny the existence of an objective world.





Like I was saying, there's a pretty major difference between the sleep world and the waking world.  Die in one, no problem. Die in the other and it looks like both worlds disappear.

And if you neither acknowledge or deny and objective world you seem to have a strong bias towards one view as being the true one in spite of that claim.

There seems to be something going on objectively imo.  But our brain cannot really identify what it is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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