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InvisibleShins
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: Patlal]
    #19276660 - 12/14/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Democracy; if you don't agree with me ill hire government goons to either fuck you up or force you to.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: Shins]
    #19277013 - 12/14/13 11:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's not a definition though. You're just describing societies/systems that call themselves democratic. I don't disagree with what you're saying about them. My point is just, I don't think that's actually what Democracy is. Democracy is usually defined as a system where everybody gets an equal say. That's obviously not how it is in most countries, so I wouldn't say that democracy is a "terrible, violent collectivist system", I'd just say that that, for example, America isn't democratic.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: r72rock]
    #19277041 - 12/14/13 11:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding whos for dinner.


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Edited by Shins (12/15/13 01:21 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: Shins]
    #19277050 - 12/14/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I can't think of any system of govt. that isn't mostly about pointing guns at perceived enemies.  We are top dog at the moment so look like the special bad guy but this has been going on a long time.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: Shins]
    #19277083 - 12/14/13 11:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
But isn't democracy just the majority pointing guns at minorities and making them do things against their free will?




No, by definition, that's not a democracy. I gave a definition of democracy that said everyone gets an equal say. If everyone doesn't get an equal say, it doesn't matter what you label yourself as, it isn't a democracy.

What you gave sounds more like a Fascist state. And I'd even change your definition a lil' more and say it's not just the minorities, but the majorities.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: r72rock]
    #19277180 - 12/15/13 12:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

a democracy is the 51% rule over the 49%. By definition it is the majority ruling over the minority.


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InvisibleEchro
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: r72rock]
    #19277231 - 12/15/13 12:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Democracy: An unattainable egalitarian ideal.
The only system I can see being genuinely democratic is Panarchism, with the inalienable right of individuals to secede & opt-out of the system with no reproval.
The very nature of States & the means by which 'common good' schemes are implemented is the antithesis of democracy. The Democratic Ideal cannot be attained within the framework of the State apparatus; there will always be a subset of society that effectively has no vote.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: Echro]
    #19277308 - 12/15/13 12:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
a democracy is the 51% rule over the 49%. By definition it is the majority ruling over the minority.




Then that's not a democracy. Democracy would be equality for all. If 51% have power, then it's not equal. Since that's one party having more power, by my definition, that's not a democracy.

Quote:

Echro said:
The very nature of States & the means by which 'common good' schemes are implemented is the antithesis of democracy. The Democratic Ideal cannot be attained within the framework of the State apparatus; there will always be a subset of society that effectively has no vote.




Right, I'd agree with that. Democracy hasn't truly been implemented. What my argument is, is that America, or fill in any other "Democratic" state isn't democratic. But it's not democracy's problem, it's the people who are in power who label themselves as democratic and then don't practice democracy.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: r72rock]
    #19277343 - 12/15/13 12:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

from merriam webster:
"government by the people; especially :  rule of the majority

so yes i am right. 51% of people are the majority. Therefore having the power. I don't care what your definition is, i just gave the correct definition.


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InvisibleEchro
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19277359 - 12/15/13 12:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If you want to get semantic, dictionaries do revise definitions to be more akin to the common usage though, not their etymological/philosophical roots.

Ancient greek Demos; "People".
Ancient Greek Kratos; Cracy, "Power, Rule".

People Rule. The Literal implication of that isn't my cup of tea.


--------------------
"People who take Life seriously are going to find it slipping through their fingers in a very maddening fashion." ~ Terence McKenna

"You still want to go on living on your knees. But I have understood life.
And anyone who understands life cannot live on his knees." ~ Renzo Novatore


Edited by Echro (12/15/13 12:56 AM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: Echro]
    #19277368 - 12/15/13 12:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

whats the point of using language if you just decide to use words in the way YOU think they should be used as opposed to the actual definition. Democracy has never been considered a good idea by those who actually knew what it meant because it simply means majority rule.


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InvisibleEchro
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19277377 - 12/15/13 12:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I retracted what I said, see my prior post.


--------------------
"People who take Life seriously are going to find it slipping through their fingers in a very maddening fashion." ~ Terence McKenna

"You still want to go on living on your knees. But I have understood life.
And anyone who understands life cannot live on his knees." ~ Renzo Novatore


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19277395 - 12/15/13 01:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
from merriam webster:
"government by the people; especially :  rule of the majority

so yes i am right. 51% of people are the majority. Therefore having the power. I don't care what your definition is, i just gave the correct definition.




Right, people not just having the majority of power, people having the power. From your definition: government by the people. That's a democracy. If people don't have that power, then it's not a democracy.

The majority (being the people) would have the power. That's democracy.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: r72rock]
    #19277420 - 12/15/13 01:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
Quote:

Shins said:
But isn't democracy just the majority pointing guns at minorities and making them do things against their free will?




No, by definition, that's not a democracy. I gave a definition of democracy that said everyone gets an equal say. If everyone doesn't get an equal say, it doesn't matter what you label yourself as, it isn't a democracy.

What you gave sounds more like a Fascist state. And I'd even change your definition a lil' more and say it's not just the minorities, but the majorities.





How exactly do you enforce democratic consensus?   

You do it with guns and violence.

those who disagree with the democratic consensus are made to do things againstvtheir will by coercion and threat of violent force and prolonged imprisonment.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: Shins]
    #19277427 - 12/15/13 01:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
How exactly do you enforce democratic consensus?   

You do it with guns and violence.

those who disagree with the democratic consensus are made to do things againstvtheir will by coercion and threat of violent force and prolonged imprisonment.




Then I'd just say that's not democracy. :shrug: Simple as that.

EDIT: I'm not saying it's doable, I'm just saying that it's not democracy. The thread was define democracy, and I was just pointing out that none of them were definitions of democracy.


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Edited by r72rock (12/15/13 01:26 AM)


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: Shins]
    #19277437 - 12/15/13 01:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

This thread makes me think of that quote
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote"

I believe in many principles of democracy, but think pure democracy is tyranny by the majority. It's best to have a Democratic Republic with well defined individual rights that even a vast majority wouldn't be allowed to change


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I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: r72rock]
    #19277464 - 12/15/13 01:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
Quote:

Shins said:
How exactly do you enforce democratic consensus?   

You do it with guns and violence.

those who disagree with the democratic consensus are made to do things againstvtheir will by coercion and threat of violent force and prolonged imprisonment.




Then I'd just say that's not democracy. :shrug: Simple as that.

EDIT: I'm not saying it's doable, I'm just saying that it's not democracy. The thread was define democracy, and I was just pointing out that none of them were definitions of democracy.





But that is democracy in the real world.

I know many of us have been taught democracy is the greatest thing in the world and it can hard to accept it in this light but really that's what it is.


It gets worse when the government expands and populace is dumbed down and brainwashed and the "democratic" process becomes controlled by an elite class of oligatchs who legislate themselves the money.

the pathetic socialists all beg for crumbs "democratically"  while the more capable and freedom loving people are fleeced at gunpoint.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: Shins]
    #19277486 - 12/15/13 02:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
But that is democracy in the real world.

I know many of us have been taught democracy is the greatest thing in the world and it can hard to accept it in this light but really that's what it is.


It gets worse when the government expands and populace is dumbed down and brainwashed and the "democratic" process becomes controlled by an elite class of oligatchs who legislate themselves the money.

the pathetic socialists all beg for crumbs "democratically"  while the more capable and freedom loving people are fleeced at gunpoint.




I'm not arguing that democracy is the greatest thing in the world. I don't think it's the greatest thing in the world. I also don't disagree that the world that we live in is like that. It is fucked up, and most governments (like the US) are terrible institutions.

That said, I'm saying that, regardless of what a country labels itself as, it's not democratic if they force people to conform to a pre-made system and bolster some agenda that's not what the people want. The examples that've been given in this thread aren't examples of democracy. They may call themselves democracy, but that doesn't mean that they are democratic.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: r72rock]
    #19277501 - 12/15/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What do people think of a free market as a means of non-violent democracy?


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Define Democracy [Re: Shins]
    #19277519 - 12/15/13 02:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know what people think of a free market as means of a non-violent democracy. That's irrelevant.

Democracy is what the people want. If they want a free market, cool. Free markets though aren't what make democracy. They could vote to not have a free market, and have it controlled by a government. If a government doesn't give people the right to vote on that, then it isn't a democracy because it isn't being ran by the people.


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