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d0urd3n
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Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 5,237
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What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes)
#19277107 - 12/14/13 11:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Decent pinning. Mist plus fan 3 or 4 times a day. Proper lighting. Proper SGFC. Is it just the MS genetics? Am I misting too heavily? Perhaps this is normal but I see a ton of huge mushrooms on here. A decent number tore their veils and they are only about one inch tall maybe 1.5 by one inch caps. Maybe I am getting overly worked up about this? Maybe the other pins will do fine but it seems to be happening a lot like 5 or more mushrooms already none have gotten big. These are the first of the batch. Maybe the rest will get large but I am afraid they will all be small.
Thanks in advance for the advice.
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HostileX420
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Registered: 04/11/13
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19277134 - 12/14/13 11:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
d0urd3n said: Decent pinning. Mist plus fan 3 or 4 times a day. Proper lighting. Proper SGFC. Is it just the MS genetics? Am I misting too heavily? Perhaps this is normal but I see a ton of huge mushrooms on here. A decent number tore their veils and they are only about one inch tall maybe 1.5 by one inch caps. Maybe I am getting overly worked up about this? Maybe the other pins will do fine but it seems to be happening a lot like 5 or more mushrooms already none have gotten big. These are the first of the batch. Maybe the rest will get large but I am afraid they will all be small.
Thanks in advance for the advice.
It could be contams but as always PIC'S Maybe???
-------------------- MY TRADE LIST
 
Edited by HostileX420 (12/14/13 11:52 PM)
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d0urd3n
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Registered: 09/15/10
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: HostileX420]
#19277218 - 12/15/13 12:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am quite positive its not contams. Looked perfect in the jars and colonized at a good rate. Have only been in the FC for four days.
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d0urd3n
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Registered: 09/15/10
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19278648 - 12/15/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ideas? Is this simply genetics?
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19278660 - 12/15/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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genetics, conditions/heavy misting too, contams, etc.. pictures
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cronicr



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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: bodhisatta]
#19278671 - 12/15/13 10:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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again... (sorry op i've just seen this like 5 times this week, post a pic)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: cronicr]
#19278694 - 12/15/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: again... (sorry op i've just seen this like 5 times this week, post a pic)

I've also seen this abnormally abundant this week. I wonder if it's due to a moon phase thing 
 but seriously it could be more than one reason or one of many reasons. Only pictures will help you get a reply you want to hear.
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d0urd3n
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: bodhisatta]
#19278815 - 12/15/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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.
Edited by d0urd3n (01/04/14 04:47 PM)
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cronicr



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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19278830 - 12/15/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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thats just a lack of moisture in your sub/genetics, larger fruits tend to come in later flushes
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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d0urd3n
Just call me "D"


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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: cronicr]
#19278832 - 12/15/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I wouldn't think it would lack of moisture in the sub they were dunked for 25 hours?
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bodhisatta 
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19278839 - 12/15/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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those look fine perhaps a tad dry. That's pretty OK for a PF cake. Sometimes they're bigger but with MS genetics it's pretty average. I wouldn't call those premature. You're not going to get forearm length cubes from cakes.
just to clarify you have quarter inch holes spaced in a two inch grid pattern on ALL six sides. 4-6 inches of moistened perlite. The SGFC is elevated off the ground and has ~6 or more inches of space on all the sides?
Keep up the good work 
also you probably don't have to edit your pictures in paint. No one is going to guess where you live if they see your bookshelf in the background.
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (12/15/13 11:18 AM)
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cronicr



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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19278847 - 12/15/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
d0urd3n said: I wouldn't think it would lack of moisture in the sub they were dunked for 25 hours?
you did great man, no worries! genetics is all that is
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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d0urd3n
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: cronicr]
#19278854 - 12/15/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
those look fine perhaps a tad dry. That's pretty OK for a PF cake. Sometimes they're bigger but with MS genetics it's pretty average. I wouldn't call those premature. You're not going to get forearm length cubes from cakes.
just to clarify you have quarter inch holes spaced in a two inch grid pattern on ALL six sides. 4-6 inches of moistened perlite. The SGFC is elevated off the ground and has ~6 or more inches of space on all the sides?
Keep up the good work 
Yep all of that is correct. First time so I guess I shouldn't be too picky. Its very enjoyable just marveling at them.  Quote:
cronicr said:
Quote:
d0urd3n said: I wouldn't think it would lack of moisture in the sub they were dunked for 25 hours?
you did great man, no worries! genetics is all that is
Thanks much appreciated!
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d0urd3n
Just call me "D"


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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19278860 - 12/15/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ah I was going to ask since there are no pins on that cake, all are mature would you go ahead and dunk just that cake right? I wouldn't think you would want to wait until the rest are done fruiting?
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Psilicon
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: cronicr]
#19278870 - 12/15/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said:
Quote:
d0urd3n said: I wouldn't think it would lack of moisture in the sub they were dunked for 25 hours?
you did great man, no worries! genetics is all that is
I think genetics is probably half of it, but moisture probably played a role. They're definitely getting plenty of FAE, so kudos to you for that. After this harvest pick 'em up and see if they feel light. If they do, dunk them again. No need to roll this time.
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cronicr



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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19278875 - 12/15/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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any without fruits can be dunked, the ones with pins you can sit in a saucer of water through out the day or over night
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bodhisatta 
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19278900 - 12/15/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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In my opinion your millage may vary with subsequent dunking of cakes. What works for me with cakes is a simple 2-3 hour soak after the first flush. I've had cakes get to soggy and perform sub-optimal with a long dunk for subsequent flushes. Like I said it's probably going to take some trial and error though to figure out what's going to work for you. Some people say it's black and white and have their dunk rules for cakes all set in stone, but I try to read my cakes, It's going to take practice and experience to get that feel for what a cake needs, but I think after harvesting those mature ones you could dunk for a few hours at least. I would probably skip the misting for a day then and resume the next day as usual. Alternatively, you could bottom water them like Cronicr said just use a plate or saucer of water to set them in. This sometimes helps if you have a huge pinset. You have to do some watering to support large fruits if you do in fact get genetics that are going to produce large fruits on PF cakes. Sometimes cakes need maintenance water during a flush but it's always hard to judge until you've done a lot.
Keep us posted.
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SuperSillyUs
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Registered: 12/14/13
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: bodhisatta]
#19278943 - 12/15/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Too dry, too wet, lol, I though too much air flow caused them to open earlier and drop their spores? Shows what I know. I guess, wait for a 'Trusted Guide' to lead you toward some sort of answer, or at least:
take my 2¢ w/ a grain of salt.
There's some knowledgeable folks here already.
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Fungicide
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19279000 - 12/15/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What are you using for lighting?
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bodhisatta 
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Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: SuperSillyUs]
#19279008 - 12/15/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SuperSillyUs said: Too dry, too wet, lol, I though too much air flow caused them to open earlier and drop their spores? Shows what I know. I guess, wait for a 'Trusted Guide' to lead you toward some sort of answer, or at least:
take my 2¢ w/ a grain of salt.
There's some knowledgeable folks here already. 
too much air flow is great for mushrooms. We want as much airflow as possible without dropping humidity too much. It inhibits contamination, and FAE is a pinning trigger, Also mushrooms breathe O2 In CO2 out.
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SuperSillyUs
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: bodhisatta]
#19279033 - 12/15/13 11:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ah, good point. Maybe it was low humidity? a trigger for spore drops? Or am I mistaken with that, too? Sometimes I get confused... Thanks for the correction.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: SuperSillyUs] 1
#19279133 - 12/15/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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When there's a bunch of mushrooms on a small substrate, the mushrooms are going to be small. That's how it works. Pick the cake up and you can tell from the weight if it's either too wet or too dry from moisture loss. If neither, then what you see is what you get. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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SuperSillyUs
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19279234 - 12/15/13 12:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So, running out of food would be a sporulating 'trigger'. That makes evolutionary sense. "Food is running out here, let me shoot my children into the wind so they can travel far away in search of more..."
Not sure where I got the idea that 'too much fresh air' triggers spore drops? Maybe some old mushroom growing book, but probably just have myself to blame.
Anyways, wondering if there's other (lesser) stimuli that initiates that spore flinging / veil ripping action. Such as darkness, maybe lack of fresh air exchange, etc.
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Psilicon
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: SuperSillyUs] 1
#19279262 - 12/15/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Running out of water, you mean. There's more food in that cake than your mushrooms could ever use, but eventually the mycelium will become weakened and either a mold or a secondary fungus will be able to contaminate.
If it sporulated when it ran out of food, there would never be a second flush. But since I've seen cakes go as high as five flushes personally, I can say with some certainty that's not the case.
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d0urd3n
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: Psilicon]
#19279275 - 12/15/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Alright thanks guys I really appreciate the advice. Yeah RR I wondered about that I remember you saying that before, but my pin set wasn't amazing or anything.
I am using a 6500k CFL 30 watt so I should be good on lighting.
It felt a bit dry for sure. I picked it up after the harvest. Wasn't super light or anything. I don't have anything to compare it to since this is the first time.
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Psilicon
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19279293 - 12/15/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Compare it to what it felt like when you took it out of its dunk and put it into the chamber the first time, or compare it to what you think a plastic bag full of water the same size as your cake would weigh.
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d0urd3n
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: Psilicon]
#19279300 - 12/15/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah probably pretty dry then. Dunked for 25 hours though so not sure how I could have prevented this. I guess by putting in a saucer like mentioned earlier. I figured they would be fine since they fruited so fast. Well at least that cake did.
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SuperSillyUs
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: Psilicon]
#19279430 - 12/15/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's good to know. And interesting. Thanks.
I assume the same is true for straight rye? Even though it's not quite as nutritious as brown rice flour and vermiculite?
Also, fruit body productions tires the organism...faster than g2g?
Sorry to 'hijack' your thread, d0urd3n. Sorry, sorry... Just wanted to get those last questions in...just in case anyone wanted to answer 'em.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: d0urd3n]
#19279748 - 12/15/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
d0urd3n said: Yeah probably pretty dry then. Dunked for 25 hours though so not sure how I could have prevented this. I guess by putting in a saucer like mentioned earlier. I figured they would be fine since they fruited so fast. Well at least that cake did.
If you're giving the correct amount of fresh air, your cakes will dry out, even after dunking. This is a major pinning trigger, so always give lots of air. You just have to mist enough to allow the cakes to recover their moisture content. Let them dry out somewhat, and then mist to replace it. You can also pile some verm on top of the cake and soak it mid flush if necessary. Or, the saucer trick works well too. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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d0urd3n
Just call me "D"


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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19279782 - 12/15/13 03:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Great thanks for the info and tips RR. Your videos helped me out tremendously, btw. I will definitely test out those techniques you mentioned.
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SuperSillyUs
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Re: What is causing premature veil tearing and how to stop it (cakes) [Re: Psilicon]
#19282563 - 12/16/13 06:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
van der griegen said: Running out of water, you mean. There's more food in that cake than your mushrooms could ever use, but eventually the mycelium will become weakened and either a mold or a secondary fungus will be able to contaminate.
If it sporulated when it ran out of food, there would never be a second flush. But since I've seen cakes go as high as five flushes personally, I can say with some certainty that's not the case.
^^^This makes sense, with the second / third / fourth flushing thing as you're not adding more nutrition between 'flushes', mainly more water. (Not that they grow strictly in flushes anyways. Reminds me of 'Gen-X', Gen-Y, etc. Demographers act like human populations take a break from reproducing between 'generations'. They don't.) Anyways, mycelium running out of water = weird. There must be quite a bit in the substrate but I guess the fruit bodies are 90% water so...still makes sense, even to me. As thick as I am. 
===► Not sure 'running out of nutrition' stimulates pinning?? As mentioned below.
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: I've been meaning to post this for a while but had no pictures. Now with a half-dozen PE tubs on the way, I have plenty of time for showing how I case a tub.
Quote:
Gretchenmeister said: Casings do this:
1. Protect colonized substrate from drying out. 2. Provide a microclimate favorable for primordia formation. 3. Provide moisture for mushroom growth. 4. Promotes stimulation of pinning by signaling mycellium it is out of nutrition and time to reproduce.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18880716#18880716
Not sure why FrankHorrigan quoted Gretchenmeister, if he agrees with him/her or not...putting aside the 'stimulates pinning' part: I'm just curious if this ( running out of nutrition) is 'old/wrong information' even though it was posted a little while back. Interested, personally, because I use relatively limited nutrition substrates like straight rye grain. Because it's so damn simple and that's what I like to use, not interested in changing. Maybe this is why I get only 2 - 3 'flushes' between dunks, then it just kinda stalls then contaminates? ...Lack of nutrition?
Or, as asked earlier:
Quote:
...fruit body production tires the organism...faster than g2g?
Thanks for any light anyone can shed.
Edited by SuperSillyUs (12/16/13 06:51 AM)
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