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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Posts: 65,967
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276364 - 12/14/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Since you've nothing new to add, and we're right back where we were an hour ago, I'll leave you to your crazy beliefs.  Feel free to have the last word.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276378 - 12/14/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
I pay my taxes under threat of violence just like everyone else.  We're going in circles, and the dance is getting boring.



That's your cop out. You pretend that you don't have a choice, but you really do. You know it, and I know it. What it really comes down to is you weighed that choice and decided your cozy american lifestyle is more important to you than your supposed morals about unjust Wars. trying to say otherwise is just you trying to fool yourself

And you're free to bow out of this dance anytime



your logic is some of the most moronic i've ever heard. Thats like saying that everyone who died in the holocaust made the choice to die because they had the choice to escape and didn't. If someone mugs you and steals your money are you supporting them if they go and buy meth?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleJuicin
Stranger
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Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276382 - 12/14/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No, it's not a cop out

If blame was equal you could have taken German citizens from WW2 and killed every one who payed a penny in tax and knew it would go to unprovoked war, or to commit genocide.

Or pick any other example you want of a states military committing atrocities. That puts the blame squarely on you and me (presuming you're a U.S. citizen) for breaking the Geneva Conventions. Do you hear yourself? My grandma is war criminal?


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19276399 - 12/14/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Since you've nothing new to add, and we're right back where we were an hour ago, I'll leave you to your crazy beliefs.  Feel free to have the last word.




If my beliefs were so crazy you wouldn't have such an impossible time refuting them

The American Public is responsible for our country's policies. Nothing crazy about that. Not that I can see. God forbid you be held accountable right. You know you could move to a country that has a foreign policy more to your liking and pay them taxes. Really nobody's forcing your financial support. " But feel free to cling the your cop out


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19276426 - 12/14/13 08:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
I pay my taxes under threat of violence just like everyone else.  We're going in circles, and the dance is getting boring.



That's your cop out. You pretend that you don't have a choice, but you really do. You know it, and I know it. What it really comes down to is you weighed that choice and decided your cozy american lifestyle is more important to you than your supposed morals about unjust Wars. trying to say otherwise is just you trying to fool yourself

And you're free to bow out of this dance anytime



your logic is some of the most moronic i've ever heard. Thats like saying that everyone who died in the holocaust made the choice to die because they had the choice to escape and didn't. If someone mugs you and steals your money are you supporting them if they go and buy meth?




Your analogies fail. None are at all similar to what I am saying. If you think that the American government is guilty of shedding innocent blood and that is atrocious then you should move to another country  with a better foreign policyand pay them taxes. If you don't want to that's fine I'm not saying that people that disagree with me should get out. But if you decide to stay and continue to financially support the government then all your indignation is just really hypocrisy. because it becomes obvious at that point you care about something else, no matter what that may be, more than your moral beliefs about the war. no one is forcing you to stay and financially support something that you say is criminal

.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Juicin]
    #19276437 - 12/14/13 08:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Juicin said:
No, it's not a cop out

If blame was equal you could have taken German citizens from WW2 and killed every one who payed a penny in tax and knew it would go to unprovoked war, or to commit genocide.

Or pick any other example you want of a states military committing atrocities. That puts the blame squarely on you and me (presuming you're a U.S. citizen) for breaking the Geneva Conventions. Do you hear yourself? My grandma is war criminal?




No one here is talking about war crimes or the Geneva Convention. Well except you. I just can't figure out why you are?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276450 - 12/14/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

so essentially unless i renounce my citizenship i am 100% responsible for every action my government takes :facepalm: once again, if someone approaches me in an alley and threatens me with violence if i do not give them my money am i responsible for what they do with that money?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19276481 - 12/14/13 08:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
so essentially unless i renounce my citizenship i am 100% responsible for every action my government takes :facepalm: once again, if someone approaches me in an alley and threatens me with violence if i do not give them my money am i responsible for what they do with that money?



So deciding to live in a country that has a foreign policy that you think is criminal, instead of moving to a country with a different foreign policy you agree with more is equivalent to getting mugged in an alley in what way? You really think that's an equivalent analogy?

you don't think that populations in democracies are at all responsible for the actions of the government? Everyone here knows that politicians from both parties supported both wars correct? You do realize you have other choices than paying taxes to the US government right? just because you don't like those other options don't mean they don't exist. It just means you would rather fund a government that executes what you consider to be unjust wars then to adhere to your morals about those unjust Wars. All that indignation is just hypocrisy if you continue to fund it with your money. What comes out of your wallet is much more convincing than what comes out of your mouth


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276489 - 12/14/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

Juicin said:
No, it's not a cop out

If blame was equal you could have taken German citizens from WW2 and killed every one who payed a penny in tax and knew it would go to unprovoked war, or to commit genocide.

Or pick any other example you want of a states military committing atrocities. That puts the blame squarely on you and me (presuming you're a U.S. citizen) for breaking the Geneva Conventions. Do you hear yourself? My grandma is war criminal?




No one here is talking about war crimes or the Geneva Convention. Well except you. I just can't figure out why you are?





You're trying to ignore the valid point he's making. How about a serious  response.  I'd like to hear it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276506 - 12/14/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
so essentially unless i renounce my citizenship i am 100% responsible for every action my government takes :facepalm: once again, if someone approaches me in an alley and threatens me with violence if i do not give them my money am i responsible for what they do with that money?



So deciding to live in a country that has a foreign policy that you think is criminal, instead of moving to a country with a different foreign policy you agree with more is equivalent to getting mugged in an alley in what way? You really think that's an equivalent analogy?

you don't think that populations in democracies are at all responsible for the actions of the government? Everyone here knows that politicians from both parties supported both wars correct? You do realize you have other choices than paying taxes to the US government right? just because you don't like those other options don't mean they don't exist? it just means you would rather fund a government that executes what you consider to be unjust wars then to adhere to your morals about those unjust Wars.



i believe those who voted for candidates that supported a particular decision are responsible for that decision/policy. I've never voted for anyone who supported a war (nor will i ever). Your argument consists of like it or get out. Which is a bull shit cop out argument on your part. You also ignore the option of doing things to stop the war. Protecting myself from violence does not equate me to supporting other violence on the aggressors behalf.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Icelander]
    #19276538 - 12/14/13 08:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

Juicin said:
No, it's not a cop out

If blame was equal you could have taken German citizens from WW2 and killed every one who payed a penny in tax and knew it would go to unprovoked war, or to commit genocide.

Or pick any other example you want of a states military committing atrocities. That puts the blame squarely on you and me (presuming you're a U.S. citizen) for breaking the Geneva Conventions. Do you hear yourself? My grandma is war criminal?




No one here is talking about war crimes or the Geneva Convention. Well except you. I just can't figure out why you are?





You're trying to ignore the valid point he's making. How about a serious  response.  I'd like to hear it.




I don't think the Geneva Conventions or war crimes is relevant to the discussion. We weren't discussing who is criminally culpable for war crimes. We were discussing the morality of joining the armed services, at which point I pointed out that I don't believe the military service personnel are the only ones to carry the moral load of an armed conflict on their backs. I believe everybody in society does, well at least in societies free elections where you have the right to move abroad if you so desire.

Now as far as the Geneva Conventions and war crimes are concerned I believe those directly responsible for crimes are the ones that should be prosecuted for them. But again,  honestly believe that's a different subject altogether


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19276570 - 12/14/13 08:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
so essentially unless i renounce my citizenship i am 100% responsible for every action my government takes :facepalm: once again, if someone approaches me in an alley and threatens me with violence if i do not give them my money am i responsible for what they do with that money?



So deciding to live in a country that has a foreign policy that you think is criminal, instead of moving to a country with a different foreign policy you agree with more is equivalent to getting mugged in an alley in what way? You really think that's an equivalent analogy?

you don't think that populations in democracies are at all responsible for the actions of the government? Everyone here knows that politicians from both parties supported both wars correct? You do realize you have other choices than paying taxes to the US government right? just because you don't like those other options don't mean they don't exist? it just means you would rather fund a government that executes what you consider to be unjust wars then to adhere to your morals about those unjust Wars.



i believe those who voted for candidates that supported a particular decision are responsible for that decision/policy. I've never voted for anyone who supported a war (nor will i ever). Your argument consists of like it or get out. Which is a bull shit cop out argument on your part. You also ignore the option of doing things to stop the war. Protecting myself from violence does not equate me to supporting other violence on the aggressors behalf.




I never said like it or get out. As a matter of fact I said the exact opposite a couple posts up. You know what is a cop out? You pretending like you have no other options then to support the US government financially or face violence. The truth is there are other options. People who stay just decided that them funding unjust wars is more acceptable than the other options. Which is fine, again I'm not saying that people to disagree with me should leave. I just don't think those people should look down there nose at military personnel and pretend that they're innocent in some way that military personnel or not. That last part is hypocrisy in my opinion


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276649 - 12/14/13 09:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think the ones who pull the trigger hold the biggest moral responsibility.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleJuicin
Stranger
Male
Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276796 - 12/14/13 10:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yea we're discussing who is morally culpable. And who should be held accountable for actions taken by a military. Don't beat around the fucking bush and give a response that makes sense

My grandmother is not a war criminal.


Edited by Juicin (12/14/13 10:11 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276894 - 12/14/13 10:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

Juicin said:
No, it's not a cop out

If blame was equal you could have taken German citizens from WW2 and killed every one who payed a penny in tax and knew it would go to unprovoked war, or to commit genocide.

Or pick any other example you want of a states military committing atrocities. That puts the blame squarely on you and me (presuming you're a U.S. citizen) for breaking the Geneva Conventions. Do you hear yourself? My grandma is war criminal?




No one here is talking about war crimes or the Geneva Convention. Well except you. I just can't figure out why you are?





You're trying to ignore the valid point he's making. How about a serious  response.  I'd like to hear it.




I don't think the Geneva Conventions or war crimes is relevant to the discussion. We weren't discussing who is criminally culpable for war crimes. We were discussing the morality of joining the armed services, at which point I pointed out that I don't believe the military service personnel are the only ones to carry the moral load of an armed conflict on their backs. I believe everybody in society does, well at least in societies free elections where you have the right to move abroad if you so desire.

Now as far as the Geneva Conventions and war crimes are concerned I believe those directly responsible for crimes are the ones that should be prosecuted for them. But again,  honestly believe that's a different subject altogether




While I agree we all bear some responsibility I'm of the opinion that there are degrees of responsibility.  If I stand by and watch a murder take place and I'm afraid to act to stop it for whatever reason, would that put me exactly on par with the one who chose to commit the murder?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19277312 - 12/15/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
I think the ones who pull the trigger hold the biggest moral responsibility.



The majority of military personnel aren't trigger pullers, and pulling a trigger is lawful many times. Even moral many times. That always depends on circumstances


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Juicin]
    #19277350 - 12/15/13 12:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Juicin said:
Yea we're discussing who is morally culpable. And who should be held accountable for actions taken by a military. Don't beat around the fucking bush and give a response that makes sense

My grandmother is not a war criminal.




We were discussing the morality of joining the armed forces & the morality of paying taxes to a government that starts what said tax payers find to be unjust wars killing innocent people. We were not discussing culpability for war crimes, or your grandmother. I'll go ahead and take your word that she's not a war criminal. Now that we have that all cleared I trust we can move on with the conversation


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Icelander]
    #19277403 - 12/15/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
While I agree we all bear some responsibility I'm of the opinion that there are degrees of responsibility.  If I stand by and watch a murder take place and I'm afraid to act to stop it for whatever reason, would that put me exactly on par with the one who chose to commit the murder?




I feel that analogies fail more often then not. I think in our current discussion a more accurate analogy for a tax payer would be someone who rents a hotel room and purchases a knife for the murderer. But I'd like to move away from analogies all together

I think that people who look down on military personnel and continue to willfully and peacefully pay taxes to what they act like is the evil fucking empire when they in fact have other options are hypocrites.

It's important to note that a strong percentage of people in the military are not combat oriented and are never going to"pull a trigger"


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJuicin
Stranger
Male
Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19277424 - 12/15/13 01:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Holy shit dude you're talking in circles.

Think about what you said, then apply that to yourself. Let's assume your country's government armed forces has done something inappropriate. You by paying even a penny of federal tax are just as culpable as the men who carried out the "illegal" operation.

So just to be clear, you have still have the high ground if you pay taxes.

I doubt I need to explain to you why people hate corporate mercenaries. And clearly just because you pay taxes you don't lose the right to have an opinion of the scum


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19277436 - 12/15/13 01:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
While I agree we all bear some responsibility I'm of the opinion that there are degrees of responsibility.  If I stand by and watch a murder take place and I'm afraid to act to stop it for whatever reason, would that put me exactly on par with the one who chose to commit the murder?




I feel that analogies fail more often then not. I think in our current discussion a more accurate analogy for a tax payer would be someone who rents a hotel room and purchases a knife for the murderer. But I'd like to move away from analogies all together

I think that people who look down on military personnel and continue to willfully and peacefully pay taxes to what they act like is the evil fucking empire when they in fact have other options are hypocrites.

It's important to note that a strong percentage of people in the military are not combat oriented and are never going to"pull a trigger"





Most of the people I know in the military went in for the money and education.  However the chance they might have to kill someone they don't really consider an enemy is always there and a big reason I never considered it.  Frankly killing people I truly don't consider my enemy would be very difficult to live with to say the least. However not everyone feels that way.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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