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all this beauty
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Creationism
#19274643 - 12/14/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here's a current story out of the U.S. state of Texas concerning the Judeo/Christian mythological nonsense known as "Creationism."
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/state-politics/20131212-gop-lieutenant-governor-hopefuls-back-creationism.ece
Read it and weep, dear brothers and sisters.
This is what, in December 2013, a large percentage of the world's population believes to be objective reality.
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Deviate
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Well ceationism is much closer to the truth than darwin's theory, that's for sure.
Of course the world is more than 6,000 years and the devil didnt put dinosaurs bones here to destroy peoples faith, but are you talking about protestant young earth creationism or the idea of a creator?
The way I see it, we are all spirit children of the great spirit and even the physical world is ultimately made of spirit (interesting science does not necessarily disagree with this, because E=mc2 so energy can take on the appearance of being solid matter).
But this insistence that the earth is only 6,000 years old and was created as is, is not a part of Catholic or Orthodox Christian church doctrine. This is an idea that became popular, mostly in the United States, after the reformation. Because protestants broke away from the authority of the Catholic and Anglican churches, they made the Bible their new authority. Yet there was no authority telling them how to interpret the Bible, so they concluded the Bible must be literally true, since if it wasn't, that would suggest the need for some authority to properly interpret it and this would damage one of the most fundamental protestant doctrine, sola scriptura.
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White Beard

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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate] 2
#19275629 - 12/14/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: Well ceationism is much closer to the truth than darwin's theory, that's for sure.
Creationism:zero evidence. Evolution:Mountains upon mountains of evidence.
That is, of course, whether or not you care about the facts derived from the real world.
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Deviate
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What is this "real world" you speak of?
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White Beard

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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate] 2
#19275740 - 12/14/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The thing we're both experiencing sensory input from. At least I assume you're having a similar experience to me.
Edited by White Beard (12/14/13 05:34 PM)
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Deviate
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And that is what is so problematic when it comes to these sorts of questions. People assume that other people are experiencing reality in the same way that they are, and therefore they assume that what appears to make logical sense to them, should make logical sense to everyone else or that anyone who does not agree with them is not logical.
This is a complete fallacy as far as I am concerned. From my perspective, perception is relative to the state of consciousness of the perceiver. For example, when you dream it seems as though you are experiencing an objective world in your dream and yet when you wake up, you realize the dream world was merely relative. One could dream up a world and then get into a debate with a dreamed up person over the age of the dreamed up world. If one were to go by evidence collected from the dream world, it might appear quite old and yet clearly the dream world only came into existence when the dream began.
People tend to dismiss their dreams and assume the waking state is real but many spiritual teachings and mystics have pointed out the fallacy in this. This being a spirituality and mysticism forum, I hardly think we can afford to make these sorts of assumptions.
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White Beard

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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19275856 - 12/14/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's a good response. Personally in my day to day life I do make the assumption that I'm living in an objective because it has made things easier to deal with.
But fair enough, lets not make that assumption. Then whether creationism is true or whether evolution is true are both unknowns.
If we do make the assumption that there is an objective world, then evolution wins from evidence(imo).
How, in your opinion, would creationism trump evolution if we don't make the assumption of an objective world?
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Icelander
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Up until humans I think all living things have made that assumption for very practical reasons. One can play with the idea of a non objective reality but if you want to survive here lets see you do that without some kind of belief in objective reality. Speeding cars do kill as as far as I've seen. And never try to tackle a wild lion with your farts.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Well if the waking state is dreamlike in nature (and this is how it appears to me, not that I don't get caught up thinking its real but I also get caught up thinking my nighttime dreams are real) then there must be a dreamer.
Just as you would not theorize that your nighttime dream state came about as a result of physical processes experienced in your dream state, we cannot assume the waking world came about as a result of processes which appear to occur in the waking state.
Instead, in order to determine where things "originate from" (and this is course assuming they have a point of origin) we must look back at who the dreamer is. Who is experiencing these states? In my experience, the consciousness which experiences these states is fixed, while the different states simply pass before it. This theory fits all the scientific evidence just as well as any other theory and possesses a great deal of explanatory power.
Now if this is true, then the idea that the world was created by a non physical intelligence is much closer to the truth than Darwinian evolution. Of course this doesn't deny that the human body "evolved" from older species but the point is that all of this is simply part of the dream of creation, just as everything in your nighttime dreams is part of the dream.
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Icelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19275970 - 12/14/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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One difference with dreaming asleep and dreaming awake is in the effect. I can dream my best friend died and wake up and find them well. Yet if I see them die in my waking world that's it for them. This is a big difference imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Quote:
Icelander said: Up until humans I think all living things have made that assumption for very practical reasons. One can play with the idea of a non objective reality but if you want to survive here lets see you do that without some kind of belief in objective reality. Speeding cars do kill as as far as I've seen. And never try to tackle a wild lion with your farts.
In my experience, our survival instincts are generally unimpeded by our views on the nature of existence. I have lived in the world while entertaining a large number of different worldviews/theologies, some of them quite radical by conventional standards, and I never noticed any effects on my ability to avoid dangers like speeding cars. It simply happens. I come to a road, I look both ways before crossing. There is no theorizing necessarily at this level of existence. Its all taken care of by the machinery of the body and the senses.
Look at India. The belief that the world is illusory has been widespread there for thousands of years. Do you see Indians getting hit by cars because they've lost the ability to discern physical danger? I guess one could make that argument based on the chaos of their roadways but I think you get my point.
Edited by Deviate (12/14/13 06:36 PM)
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Deviate
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Quote:
Icelander said: One difference with dreaming asleep and dreaming awake is in the effect. I can dream my best friend died and wake up and find them well. Yet if I see them die in my waking world that's it for them. This is a big difference imo.
But your friend can die in the waking state and then appear alive and well in the dream state after that.
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Icelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19275989 - 12/14/13 06:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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At some point you had to learn these things and at some point you tested their validity in some way. My point was however that you can't equate the two. "Objective" reality cannot be ignored. The other kind easily can with no physical consequences and likely no other kind of consequences.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Quote:
Icelander said: At some point you had to learn these things and at some point you tested their validity in some way. My point was however that you can't equate the two. "Objective" reality cannot be ignored. The other kind easily can with no physical consequences and likely no other kind of consequences.
No, it cannot. When you dream if you are thirsty you need dream water to quench your dream thirst. As long as you are caught in the dream world, things have consequences which cannot be ignored just like in the waking state.
The only difference is that the waking state is long and the dream state short.
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Icelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19276019 - 12/14/13 06:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sorry, wrong. You cannot die of thirst in a dream. You will awaken alive and the water you need you will then obtain. But ignore it then and all dreaming ends forever as far as we know.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19276039 - 12/14/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: Its all taken care of by the machinery of the body and the senses.
But aren't these part of an objective world?
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Deviate said: Well if the waking state is dreamlike in nature (and this is how it appears to me, not that I don't get caught up thinking its real but I also get caught up thinking my nighttime dreams are real) then there must be a dreamer.
Just as you would not theorize that your nighttime dream state came about as a result of physical processes experienced in your dream state, we cannot assume the waking world came about as a result of processes which appear to occur in the waking state.
Usually in my experience when I question a dream world I realize it's a dream and either wake up or become lucid and can bend the rules of the dream. That doesn't happen in the waking state.
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TheMaster
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The only instance I can recall of something occuring in a dream and the "real" world for me was pissing the bed many years ago. 
My dad told me a while back that on a Florida trip like thirty years ago where there was a huge lottery drawing coming up being plastered on the news. He had a dream the night before the day of the drawing where he saw numbers popping up. It freaked him out and he woke up. There were only five numbers he saw before he woke up and according to him they were five of the six numbers drawn later that night. His only real vice is Reese's peanut butter cups, so he never bought a ticket. 
He is not the type to make something like that up, and my mom and grandparents confirmed it. Take it however you like, but that is some crazy precognition and still makes me question the true ability of the mind.
-------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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Deviate
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Quote:
Icelander said: Sorry, wrong. You cannot die of thirst in a dream. You will awaken alive and the water you need you will then obtain. But ignore it then and all dreaming ends forever as far as we know.
Well, yes and no. I have died in a dream before, although not from thirst but of course I woke up still alive in the morning.
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But aren't these part of an objective world?
How can they be part of the objective world if there isn't an objective world? In the dream state we have a dream body with dream senses and in the waking state we have a waking body with waking senses. Both are seen in the mind only.
I neither acknowledge, nor deny the existence of an objective world.
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Deviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19277141 - 12/14/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree that from a typical western point of view, evolution looks like a much better theory than creationism. This is because the western mindset is built on the assumption that the sensory world really is an objective reality that exists independently of us. It's based on the assumption that physical reality is the most fundamental level of reality and the assumption of separation and of course it is intellectually based, with logic and evidence used to support its contentions.
The eastern view of reality is quite different however. There isn't this assumption that we are separate from the world, nor is it taken for granted that the world is a real objective physical reality existing independently of the mind. Instead they view the world more as a projection or emanation from deeper levels of a non physical reality. This idea is based on what one perceives from increasingly subtler states of mind. In my opinion, this view of reality is much closer to the truth than the western viewpoint. Even in the west, Christian mystics have described this revelation, for example meister eckhart stated that the eye with which he sees God and the eye with which God sees him, is the same eye. But unlike in the east where spiritual insights are taken seriously by the ordinary person, western thinkers tend to dismiss/ignore anything that lacks external physical evidence. Unfortunately, the eastern view of reality appears quite radical and contrary to common sense to the average western intellect. In order to accept it one would have to acknowledge that they have been completely mispercieving reality for their entire life.
Yet if one wants to be truly rational in the western sense, one must admit that it is quite possible they have been mispercieving reality.
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Icelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19277412 - 12/15/13 01:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Sorry, wrong. You cannot die of thirst in a dream. You will awaken alive and the water you need you will then obtain. But ignore it then and all dreaming ends forever as far as we know.
Well, yes and no. I have died in a dream before, although not from thirst but of course I woke up still alive in the morning.
I neither acknowledge, nor deny the existence of an objective world.
Like I was saying, there's a pretty major difference between the sleep world and the waking world. Die in one, no problem. Die in the other and it looks like both worlds disappear.
And if you neither acknowledge or deny and objective world you seem to have a strong bias towards one view as being the true one in spite of that claim.
There seems to be something going on objectively imo. But our brain cannot really identify what it is.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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I have only one view. When I say that I neither acknowledge nor the deny the existence of the world, I don't mean to imply uncertainty. I mean that I think it's a matter of perspective.
Dream is intermediate between successive waking states and death is intermediate between successive births. It is our decision as to whether we wish to regard death as a problem.
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Icelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19277457 - 12/15/13 01:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree. Seeing death as a problem is a error in logical thinking to the excessive extent that we view it as a problem. Not to mention the anxiety and suffering it brings. Yet had we none we wouldn't have likely survived to have this conversation.
You can ignore death much of the time because culture has mostly removed it as a immediate problem. But immediately threaten your existence and you will likely react and use your mental resources to remedy the situation ignoring all else until that is accomplished.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Yes I recall one night I was feeling very depressed and wanted to die and then in the morning i woke up shaking with a high fever and became afraid and then I wanted nothing more than to live. it was pretty funny.
Anyway, in the Eastern Orthodox church there is a spiritual practice called remembrance of death which the spiritual seeker uses to destroy his pride and self will, by constantly remembering the fact that he is going to die and lose everything.
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Icelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19277514 - 12/15/13 02:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I use that practice myself. I actually appreciate things just a little more knowing they are temporary. Also when I feel life is not worth living I'm reassured that it is only a temporary issue.
Well I'm going to try and sleep. It's been fun discussing these issues with you tonight. Take care.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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r72rock
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I enjoyed your guy's conversation a lot. Lots of good stuff.
I use a similar method of dealing with life. I always try to remember when the going gets rough, that 100 years from now, I'll be dead, and everyone I know who's involved with me will be dead, so there's nothing to worry about because in a short amount of time, it'll all be dust to dust.
We either create death as a problem or as a solution when it's convenient to us. (Like the example I gave where it's convenient.)
I don't really have anything to add, I just liked the conversation a lot. 
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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all this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19278460 - 12/15/13 09:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The way you synthesize Eastern mysticism and Western religious dogma, Deviate, is absolutely fascinating. I've never encountered anyone who does it with such apparent intellectual ease as you.
My sense is that you speak from the heart -- that you're not intentionally bullshitting -- which in my opinion makes it all the more fascinating.
I consider myself a fairly open-minded and sophisticated thinker when it comes to this shit, and I can't begin to fathom how anyone with a deep and profound grounding in Eastern metaphysics can even begin to reconcile creationism with intuitive understanding.
Please answer this for me, Deviate:
When you have had profound mystical encounters on drugs (you're posting on this board and in this forum, so I assume you've had such encounters), you "leave" them with an intuitive sense or understanding that there's something or someone in some very mysterious place who through an act of will created all life on Planet Earth?
I'm not being facetious or sarcastic here. I'm genuinely curious.
You walk away from those experiences with a sense that creationism might actually be true?
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Bahaudeen
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I'd say if you want to stay away from being ignorant, use evidence to come to a conclusion instead of coming to a conclusion and then back it up with evidence.
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Deviate
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Quote:
all this beauty said: The way you synthesize Eastern mysticism and Western religious dogma, Deviate, is absolutely fascinating. I've never encountered anyone who does it with such apparent intellectual ease as you.
My sense is that you speak from the heart -- that you're not intentionally bullshitting -- which in my opinion makes it all the more fascinating.
Thank you, that is very kind of you but I have to say that Markosthegnostic possesses far more knowledge and understanding than I do and he has an ability to express things that far exceeds my own. Of course he has about 30 years on me, which is a big head start.
Quote:
I consider myself a fairly open-minded and sophisticated thinker when it comes to this shit, and I can't begin to fathom how anyone with a deep and profound grounding in Eastern metaphysics can even begin to reconcile creationism with intuitive understanding.
Why not? Hinduism describes the universes as being created, sustained and destroyed by Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. If you have a profound grounding in Eastern metaphysics, then you of course understand that the physical world is not regarded as the most fundamental level of reality. Rather eastern metaphysics describes the physical as being a manifestation, emanation, shadow, etc, of the supreme. This opens the door for creationism. Of course it can be interpreted in various ways, for instance we could say that if the world is an illusion than it was never created, so we could say creationism is false, but this is certainly not an affirmation of darwinian evolution. On the contrary, if one had to choose between creationism and darwin's theory of evolution from an eastern metaphysical standpoint, creationism would be far closer to the truth, as I said earlier in this thread.
Quote:
Please answer this for me, Deviate:
When you have had profound mystical encounters on drugs (you're posting on this board and in this forum, so I assume you've had such encounters), you "leave" them with an intuitive sense or understanding that there's something or someone in some very mysterious place who through an act of will created all life on Planet Earth?
I'm not being facetious or sarcastic here. I'm genuinely curious.
You walk away from those experiences with a sense that creationism might actually be true?
obviously there is a creative intelligence at work, not in some very mysterious place but everywhere always. The basic energy that makes up everything is wonderfully creative by its very nature and the most incredible thing about this energy is that it can create absolutely anything. As far as I have observed and experienced, it has no limits. That is why Jesus said that for God, all things are possible. All the different realities that can be experienced, heaven, earth, hell and all the subtitles that the mind adds to experience are all manifestations of this single energy or as Christianity says all things were made by God, through Him and for Him.
This also happens to be a major part of what the human experience is about. Unlike other animals, humans were created in the image and likeness of God, meaning we take after Him in that we have an innate need to create. That is why humans create art, music, literature, architecture, inventions, religions, sciences, etc. Our whole way of relating to life and how we choose to live it, is itself a creative act. This is all the same basic creative energy at work taking on infinite forms, shapes and manifestations on and on forever and ever, always becoming something more, always doing something new.
Now just to be clear here, I am not saying that the Geneses account of creation is scientifically accurate. It was never intended to be. That's why so called creationist science is ridiculous, or like when sunday school teachers say that the 7 days described in Geneses were much longer than earth days. If you went up to a 1st century jew and started asking about that, they would probably look at you like you were nuts. They couldn't care less about science. That's not the point.
Perhaps we could say that science tries to describe and categorize everything as it appears to the senses, whereas religion describes things as they appear to the emotional mind and the spirit. Because happiness ultimately comes from the spirit and not the senses, I see religion as giving us higher truth than science.
Edited by Deviate (12/16/13 12:20 AM)
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all this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19282872 - 12/16/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: On the contrary, if one had to choose between creationism and darwin's theory of evolution from an eastern metaphysical standpoint, creationism would be far closer to the truth, as I said earlier in this thread.
Well, everyone to his or her understanding of Eastern metaphysics... but Eastern metaphysics, as I understand it, is not at all incompatible with science. I find the anti-science sentiment inherent in some interpretations of mystical doctrine really unfortunate.
Of course, if one adheres to the "nothing is real, everything is illusion" mindset, then sure, anything goes. There just might be a Big Daddy in the Sky who populated a Garden of Eden. But I choose not to surrender intellect and discernment in my pursuit of spiritual wisdom. In fact, I think intellect and discernment are totally compatible with spiritual wisdom. Probably a prerequisite, in fact.
Again, I appreciate your candor, Deviate.
Very hard to talk intelligibly about any of this shit, and you're pretty damn articulate at expressing what it is you believe in.
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Deviate
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Quote:
First of all, "Eastern metaphysics, as I understand it, is not at all incompatible with science. "
No metaphysics, eastern or western is really incompatable with "science" because "science" is a method more than anything. There are scientists who are Christian (in fact the scientfic movement was begun by catholics) and we Christians view science as simply one way of looking at God's infinite being. There is certainly no incompatibility between faith and science, as blessed John Paul II stated on many occasions. But if you mean to tell me that you dont think eastern metaphysics is at all incompatable with our current scientific understanding of the universe or the viewpoint and paradigms currently accepted by the scientific community, then you're completely delusional.
The scientific community by and large is completely at odds with the views taken by eastern metaphysics, even more so than western metaphysics. At least western metaphysics for the most part accepts the existence of a physical world that can be studied. On the other hand, the assumption that we exist independently of a physical world that has a real objective existence outside of us is denied by a large part of eastern metaphysics. And that's just the beginning. If you think ideas like karma, reincarnation, remembering past lives, buddhas, enlightenment, nirvana, siddhis/yogic powers, spiritual realms, miracles, etc are compatible with science, then like i said, you're totally nuts. No respected scientist can publicly take these things seriously without completely losing his credibility. I mean these are exactly the kind of thing that most scientifically minded people try to expose as fraudulent.
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I choose not to surrender intellect and discernment in my pursuit of spiritual wisdom. In fact, I think intellect and discernment are totally compatible with spiritual wisdom. Probably a prerequisite, in fact.
Spiritual wisdom is the surrender of intellect. Not as in "ok i will start believing in things that make no sense" but in the sense of recognizing that the intellect is limited and surrendering concepts all together, because no conceptual understanding can ever capture the truth of what is. Thats why in Zen Buddhism they tell you don't even need to understand Buddhism, it's not about intellectual understanding, its about sitting quietly in your natural state not bound by any particular viewpoint.
The natural states comes before concepts, and LONG before science. Thousands of years ago people lived full lives without science. Hence, a sophisticated scientific understanding of the universe is completely unnecessary. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with science of course.
Edited by Deviate (12/16/13 02:33 PM)
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all this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19284351 - 12/16/13 02:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: But if you mean to tell me that you dont think eastern metaphysics is at all incompatable with our current scientific understanding of the universe or the viewpoint and paradigms currently accepted by the scientific community, then you're completely delusional.
The "incompatibility" is in your head, boyfriend.
There is no "incompatibility" between science and mysticism. The world of objective reality (as opposed to the world of subjective reality -- i.e., the world of ghosts, goblins, and gods) is totally compatible with the mystical.
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Deviate said: On the other hand, the assumption that we exist independently of a physical world that has a real objective existence outside of us is denied by a large part of eastern metaphysics.
Not by the "eastern metaphysics" I hang out with, sweetie.
Read the Tao Te Ching, for example. There's no denial of the physical world there. Those ancient Chinese guys knew better.
Quote:
Deviate said: If you think ideas like karma, reincarnation, remembering past lives, buddhas, enlightenment, nirvana, siddhis/yogic powers, spiritual realms, miracles, etc are compatible with science, then like i said, you're totally nuts. No respected scientist can publicly take these things seriously without completely losing his credibility. I mean these are exactly the kind of thing that most scientifically minded people try to expose as fraudulent.
And so some (not all) of the things in your list should be. They are fraudulent. Magical hocus-pocus nonsense.
"Reincarnation" and "karma," for example, are 100 percent magical hocus-pocus nonsense.
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Deviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19284506 - 12/16/13 03:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Reincarnation" and "karma," for example, are 100 percent magical hocus-pocus nonsense.
Not according to eastern metaphysics, which is what I thought we were talking about. If you believe that karma is 100% nonsense, then you can't have a very high opinion of eastern metaphysics.
If you were speaking specifically about the Tao Te Ching or Taoism, why did you say eastern metaphysics, the large part of which is completely based on the belief in karma? Its like if I said western metaphysics and then told you to read Mary Baker Eddy (creator of Christian science) to support my assertions.
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all this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate] 1
#19284523 - 12/16/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: Spiritual wisdom is the surrender of intellect. Not as in "ok i will start believing in things that make no sense" but in the sense of recognizing that the intellect is limited and surrendering concepts all together, because no conceptual understanding can ever capture the truth of what is.
Ah.
That's what in marriage law is called an "irreconcilable difference." If you and I were married, that post of yours would authorize any judge to grant us a divorce.
"Spiritual wisdom" is the embrace of intellect. Both the strengths and the weaknesses of intellect.
It's only through your intellect that you can discern. That you can distinguish what is real from what is not real.
You surrender intellect at your peril, my friend.
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all this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19284675 - 12/16/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said:
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"Reincarnation" and "karma," for example, are 100 percent magical hocus-pocus nonsense.
Not according to eastern metaphysics, which is what I thought we were talking about. If you believe that karma is 100% nonsense, then you can't have a very high opinion of eastern metaphysics.
YOUR brand of eastern metaphysics.
"My brand" recognizes that stuff as metaphorical expression only.
They're not "real."
They're the attempts of frail human beings to eff the ineffable, if you will.
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Deviate said: If you were speaking specifically about the Tao Te Ching or Taoism, why did you say eastern metaphysics, the large part of which is completely based on the belief in karma?
Philosophical Daoism (there's a religious school of Daoism as well -- which embraces all manner of western religious convention) is considered by some scholars to be the seed that gave rise to Buddhism, Hinduism, and related eastern disciplines.
Ideas such as "reincarnation" and "karma" are (in my opinion and in the opinion of some scholars) bastardizations of the ideas explored in the Tao Te Ching.
There are western analogies as well.
The notion of physical resurrection from the dead -- a staple of much of Christendom -- is, in my opinion, a bastardization of the metaphorical expression represented by the emergence of Jesus, after three days, from the tomb.
It's in our frail and vulnerable human natures to try to come to grips with the sublime by reinterpreting it into the literal.
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BlueCoyote
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With our brain we are able to see behind the veil, behind the physical theatre of actions, to recognize the world of ideas and principles and how they both are connected. It seems our mind has evolutionary broken through a veil that ever has been there before. We are just beginning to grasp, realize and utilize what we recently found us in. Some of those kids, while growing up, usually do more harm in an unsupportive environment, which their ancestry has led them to.
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Deviate
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Spiritual wisdom is the surrender of intellect. Not as in "ok i will start believing in things that make no sense" but in the sense of recognizing that the intellect is limited and surrendering concepts all together, because no conceptual understanding can ever capture the truth of what is.
Ah.
That's what in marriage law is called an "irreconcilable difference." If you and I were married, that post of yours would authorize any judge to grant us a divorce.
"Spiritual wisdom" is the embrace of intellect. Both the strengths and the weaknesses of intellect.
It's only through your intellect that you can discern. That you can distinguish what is real from what is not real.
You surrender intellect at your peril, my friend.
I think I understand your point of view on this but I am not sure if you fully understand mine.
From my non dual perspective, there is no one there that needs to discern or to distinguish what is real from what is unreal. There is only being. My question to you would be, to whom is the peril? It is the intellect which says that there is peril. this is just a thought. there is no peril, nor does the intellect cease to function after it is surrendered. Enlightened beings have full use of the intellect.
Edited by Deviate (12/16/13 08:16 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19285813 - 12/16/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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YOUR brand of eastern metaphysics.
"My brand" recognizes that stuff as metaphorical expression only.
They're not "real."
They're the attempts of frail human beings to eff the ineffable, if you will.
You seem to be contradicting your earlier refusal to surrender the intellect. Yes, karma is a man made concept created in an attempt to understand that which cannot be understood. And yet, from the standpoint of the ego, the laws of karmic seem to hold. Each man reaps as he sows. This is why karma is useful concept.
There is a difference between being a metaphorical expression and being 100% nonsense, as you said karma was. Can you explain what you think karma is a metaphorical expression of and why you think it is 100% nonsense? none of the eastern gurus and saints I have studied have ever said karma was nonsense, why do you think you have a better udnerstanding of "eastern metaphysics" than they?
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Deviate
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19285858 - 12/16/13 08:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Philosophical Daoism (there's a religious school of Daoism as well -- which embraces all manner of western religious convention) is considered by some scholars to be the seed that gave rise to Buddhism, Hinduism, and related eastern disciplines.
Well ok but why didn't you make that clear from the beginning of the thread then? I mean isn't this kind of like if we were discussing southern baptists and I kept putting forth ideas that were in complete contradiction to southern baptist doctrine and when you pointed this out I said that southern baptist christianity actually has its roots in ancient Judaism? Regardless of where the roots lie, if you consider folks like the Buddha to be enlightened, then they are capable of speaking on their own authority, like Jesus spoke from authority rather than just saying "well this is true because scripture says it's true". In other words, the Buddha gave his own teaching, from his heart, not simply an interpretation of existing religion. And yet he accepted the laws of karma and reincarnation. THere is actually very detailed descriptions of these things and what they mean in Buddhist philosophy. It is easy to misunderstand what they mean and for example, form an idea about reincarnation that is not in accordance with real Buddhist teachings about reincarnation and yet that is not the same thing as reincarnation being nonsense.
Ideas such as "reincarnation" and "karma" are (in my opinion and in the opinion of some scholars) bastardizations of the ideas explored in the Tao Te Ching.
Quote:
There are western analogies as well.
The notion of physical resurrection from the dead -- a staple of much of Christendom -- is, in my opinion, a bastardization of the metaphorical expression represented by the emergence of Jesus, after three days, from the tomb.
It's in our frail and vulnerable human natures to try to come to grips with the sublime by reinterpreting it into the literal.
I would agree that the resurrection of the body is one of the most frequently misunderstood Christians doctrines but I don't quite see how that is the same thing as karma being 100% nonsense.
I guess here is my question about your position. You started off by saying that "eastern metaphysics" (without making any specification about what you meant by this) was completely compatible with science. I then showed you how the eastern metaphysics that is believed in by millions, perhaps billions of easterners is quite contrary to science and you then responded by saying "well that's actually not what I meant, I meant this certain version of eastern metaphysics that I completely failed to mention". Ok, fair enough, but if we are counting "versions" now, rather than just ideas which are most popular and widespread, then how is it that eastern metaphysics is compatible with science but western is not? Certainly there are versions of western metaphysics that are completely compatible with science. Do you see what I'm saying? When you use a broad term like "eastern metaphysics" I can only assume you mean the broad and widespread metaphysical ideas that are associated with eastern religion.
Edited by Deviate (12/16/13 08:43 PM)
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all this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19286429 - 12/16/13 10:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: Can you explain what you think karma is a metaphorical expression of and why you think it is 100% nonsense? none of the eastern gurus and saints I have studied have ever said karma was nonsense, why do you think you have a better understanding of "eastern metaphysics" than they?
"Karma" is a sort of metaphorical expression of the intuitive sense that there is order in the universe. The sense that actions have consequences. The sense that there are complementary forces in the universe that play off one another and shape existence.
Karma is not objectively "real," however. Plenty of eight-year-olds earnestly believe that, next week, Santa is going to come down their chimneys and reward them for having been good.
As a metaphor for childhood innocence and the longing for reward, "Santa" is a useful notion. But you and I know that Santa is not an objectively real thing... yes? "Karma" is not an objectively real thing either.
Understood metaphorically, it's useful. Understood literally (by gurus, saints, and sinners alike), it's childish nonsense.
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Deviate
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As I understand it, karma is cause and effect. Our actions have consequences and these consequences are ordered, such that one kind of action done with one kind of intention leads to one kind of consequence and another kind of action with another kind of intention leads to another kind of consequence.
Now different people may understand it in differing ways and I see that as ok, but I dont really see how the answer you gave justifies calling it 100% nonsense.
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all this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19286558 - 12/16/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: Now different people may understand it in differing ways and I see that as ok, but I dont really see how the answer you gave justifies calling it 100% nonsense.
Again, understood LITERALLY, it's nonsense.
If I tell you that there's a LITERAL Santa Claus, you would say that's "nonsense"... yes?
If you tell me that there's some kind of LITERAL "scorekeeping" in and by the universe that will cause me to suffer for my bad actions and benefit by my good actions, I would say that's "nonsense."
Do you understand the distinction between a metaphor and a LITERAL thing?
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Deviate
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No, I mean karma is as I said cause and effect. I don't know what you mean by "literal scorekeeping", did my definition of karma mention literal scorekeeping? You will suffer for your bad actions and benefit from your good actions.
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Icelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19287505 - 12/17/13 08:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm a great wonderful sensitive loving kind gentle person and all I do is suffer. The bad guys don't suffer nearly as much often. What am I doing wrong.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Icelander said: I'm a great wonderful sensitive loving kind gentle person and all I do is suffer. The bad guys don't suffer nearly as much often. What am I doing wrong. 
Your karma is blocked up.
You need "Drano for Blocked Karma."
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Icelander
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And here I been wasting my time with prunes.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Icelander said: I'm a great wonderful sensitive loving kind gentle person and all I do is suffer. The bad guys don't suffer nearly as much often. What am I doing wrong. 
You are clinging, but suffering is good, it destroys your vasanas especially if you can learn to suffer consciously. The Lord exalts the poor and down trodden, but the arrogant he shall bring to nothing.
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all this beauty
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19289551 - 12/17/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said:
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Icelander said: I'm a great wonderful sensitive loving kind gentle person and all I do is suffer. The bad guys don't suffer nearly as much often. What am I doing wrong. 
You are clinging, but suffering is good, it destroys your vasanas especially if you can learn to suffer consciously. The Lord exalts the poor and down trodden, but the arrogant he shall bring to nothing.
I'm only guessing, but I suspect the "arrogant he shall bring to nothing" thingy is not good news for Icelander. 
Regarding suffering destroying one's vasanas, that's certainly better than suffering destroying one's vagina, I should think.
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Icelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19289596 - 12/17/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said:
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Icelander said: I'm a great wonderful sensitive loving kind gentle person and all I do is suffer. The bad guys don't suffer nearly as much often. What am I doing wrong. 
You are clinging, but suffering is good, it destroys your vasanas especially if you can learn to suffer consciously. The Lord exalts the poor and down trodden, but the arrogant he shall bring to nothing.
If I believed you weren't talking out of your ass I might find that comforting.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
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Icelander said: I'm a great wonderful sensitive loving kind gentle person and all I do is suffer. The bad guys don't suffer nearly as much often. What am I doing wrong. 
You are clinging, but suffering is good, it destroys your vasanas especially if you can learn to suffer consciously. The Lord exalts the poor and down trodden, but the arrogant he shall bring to nothing.
I'm only guessing, but I suspect the "arrogant he shall bring to nothing" thingy is not good news for Icelander. 
Regarding suffering destroying one's vasanas, that's certainly better than suffering destroying one's vagina, I should think. 
Hey!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I'm a great wonderful sensitive loving kind gentle person and all I do is suffer. The bad guys don't suffer nearly as much often. What am I doing wrong. 
You are clinging, but suffering is good, it destroys your vasanas especially if you can learn to suffer consciously. The Lord exalts the poor and down trodden, but the arrogant he shall bring to nothing.
If I believed you weren't talking out of your ass I might find that comforting. 
It's the truth though. Think about it, in that PM you agreed with me that the "I" thought is not real and it's certainly not permanent. Now think about the proud and arrogant. They are in love with their "I" thought. They believe that they are very important. When death comes, they are going to find that this "I" they spent their lifetime serving, was really nothing. Imagine the horror!
The Bible talks quite a lot about this. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. In Isaiah God says "I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless."
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Icelander
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Re: Creationism [Re: Deviate]
#19291958 - 12/18/13 05:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm talking about all that Lord bringing people down nonsense. Many people attached to their "I" in benign ways are still full of themselves but have pretty fucking good lives and die relatively content. I've seen it. In fact imo the religious suffer most of all, are most concerned with themselves and in general a most unhappy lot. And from your many posts here I don't see you as an exception. You have admitted it. You're confused and often what I would call unhappy. My unreligious great uncle, never thought about it, lived a farmers life, went fishing with us kids, drank a little, laughed a lot, and died napping under his apple tree. He was glorious man. He puts guys like us to shame.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/18/13 06:19 AM)
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all this beauty
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Icelander said: My unreligious great uncle, never thought about it, lived a farmers life, went fishing with us kids, drank a little, laughed a lot, and died napping under his apple tree. He was glorious man. He puts guys like us to shame.
Amen to that.
I know "non-religious, non-spiritual" people too, and many of them live exemplary lives of kindness and giving. The greatest hubris of all is believing that the "spiritually elite" are in a better place than the rest of humankind.
Deviate should know that, by the way, since his Lord and Savior often spoke of the jewel that is humility and humbleness.
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Icelander
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He was a humble regular guy and the only one in my family truly taking the time to be nice and really pay a little attention to what I was going through.
On the other hand my very religious father was hell on wheels nasty.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
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"But you and I know that Santa is not an objectively real thing... yes?" Santa can be in all of us
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