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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
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Spirituality is Mysticism 1
#19273919 - 12/14/13 09:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You can never capture yourself, it's an absolute mystery, but you can know it is a mystery & stop trying to capture the mystery, stop imagining yourself to be the knowable and live as the unknowable
How? Know that you don't know
Know that what you truly essentially ultimately are is completely unknowable Your sense of self all the time even right now is like a blind spot, unknowable
So to be true to yourself you keep dropping anything that you can know, surrender all your gathered knowledge to the unknown, anything you've been taught that you are, anything that other people or yourself project you to be, stay beyond all expectation, and as the unknown you are left as you are, rather than as you think yourself to be
To abide as the unknown isn't to be ignorant as you can drop all knowledge but you can not drop yourself, the knower
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all this beauty
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Chronic7]
#19274004 - 12/14/13 10:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yep. I can dig that. "Surrender" is at the core of the spiritual journey. But it's an unspeakably subtle and delicate thing.
If you want to follow the path of the saints, you must surrender even the desire to surrender. You must surrender the desire for "enlightenment." You must even surrender the desire to be "good."
A total and complete draining and emptying of the metaphysical gut, at which point the vacuum is filled with mystery and delight beyond words.
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Icelander
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Chronic7] 1
#19274056 - 12/14/13 10:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said: You can never capture yourself, it's an absolute mystery, but you can know it is a mystery & stop trying to capture the mystery, stop imagining yourself to be the knowable and live as the unknowable
How? Know that you don't know
Know that what you truly essentially ultimately are is completely unknowable Your sense of self all the time even right now is like a blind spot, unknowable
So to be true to yourself you keep dropping anything that you can know, surrender all your gathered knowledge to the unknown, anything you've been taught that you are, anything that other people or yourself project you to be, stay beyond all expectation, and as the unknown you are left as you are, rather than as you think yourself to be
To abide as the unknown isn't to be ignorant as you can drop all knowledge but you can not drop yourself, the knower
Nice. Can we all go home now? 
In other words it's easier said than done even for knowitall's like you. 
One of your best threads imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Icelander]
#19274325 - 12/14/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
all this beauty said: Yep. I can dig that. "Surrender" is at the core of the spiritual journey. But it's an unspeakably subtle and delicate thing.
If you want to follow the path of the saints, you must surrender even the desire to surrender. You must surrender the desire for "enlightenment." You must even surrender the desire to be "good."
A total and complete draining and emptying of the metaphysical gut, at which point the vacuum is filled with mystery and delight beyond words.

I wouldn't say im trying to follow a saintly path at all, i just love what i feel that truth is, and it does seem the quickest way to that is to give everything up to the unknown, or what i find easier is to see myself as the unknown, then surrender comes naturally
Quote:
Icelander said: Nice. Can we all go home now? 
You are always home
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Icelander
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Chronic7] 1
#19274484 - 12/14/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What's for dinner?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Icelander]
#19274509 - 12/14/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Curry & Ice cream
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Grapefruit
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Chronic7]
#19274776 - 12/14/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Great. I love a good curry. Better make that Kulfi though.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Deviate
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Grapefruit]
#19275490 - 12/14/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
But it's an unspeakably subtle
yes its this subtlety that makes spirituality impossible to explain to the majority of atheists and skeptics. they want something concrete and seem to believe they are somehow entitled to something concrete to sink their intellects into, as though reality has an obligation to be as they think it should. and then they think spiritual people are the stupid ones.
the subtlety is also what makes realization so elusive to the seeker. a good rule of thumb is that if you are seeking enlightenment, any time you settle on some concrete concept of what enlightenment is, you need to go way subtler.
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Icelander
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Deviate]
#19275958 - 12/14/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think a big problem with skeptics is that the mystics don't seem to agree on what they are experiencing or are believing much of the time. They can have very different ideas of what's going on and a lot of truly insane people tend to act like them. I can hardly then, blame the skeptic for being skeptical.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Icelander]
#19276298 - 12/14/13 07:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not to mention if you get subtle enough... to the point of imperceptability... then the first line of your quote is pretty spot on.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Chronic7
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Icelander]
#19276913 - 12/14/13 10:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I think a big problem with skeptics is that the mystics don't seem to agree on what they are experiencing or are believing much of the time. They can have very different ideas of what's going on and a lot of truly insane people tend to act like them. I can hardly then, blame the skeptic for being skeptical. 
For the most part, or at least the ones I pay attention to, they are in agreement & my experience tallies with their descriptions
For thousands of years or more humans have found love, bliss, awareness to be their essential nature
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r72rock
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Chronic7]
#19276994 - 12/14/13 11:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Good post. 
Quote:
You can never capture yourself, it's an absolute mystery, but you can know it is a mystery & stop trying to capture the mystery, stop imagining yourself to be the knowable and live as the unknowable
This is so hard to do though. I've been trying to do this lately, and to me, it feels like we're biologically driven to seek "the knowable." Part of me things it's impossible just because it's so hardwired into us. In the same way, we seem biologically driven to compartmentalize and make sense of the world around us. It just seems like nature at work.
Quote:
To abide as the unknown isn't to be ignorant as you can drop all knowledge but you can not drop yourself, the knower
This is also something that I get behind 100%... yet, I feel like this gets mixed up in ideas of a self. I feel like the self isn't real, but at the same time, we're hopelessly stuck with it. (Again, biologically) This is just some ideas that I've had in me for a while that are totally relevant to this topic.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Deviate
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Chronic7]
#19277189 - 12/15/13 12:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I think a big problem with skeptics is that the mystics don't seem to agree on what they are experiencing or are believing much of the time. They can have very different ideas of what's going on and a lot of truly insane people tend to act like them. I can hardly then, blame the skeptic for being skeptical. 
For the most part, or at least the ones I pay attention to, they are in agreement & my experience tallies with their descriptions
For thousands of years or more humans have found love, bliss, awareness to be their essential nature
Yes, they all say more or less say the same thing as far as I am concerned also, albeit in different ways. Every spiritual book I have ever read from the Bible to the Bhagavad Gita has always said more or less the same thing. It can basically be summed up as what we really desire, happiness, is not to be found in worldly gain or temporary pleasures. Therefore, the wise man seeks the eternal. That's one interpretation of what every single saint and mystic has said from the dawn of time. In fact Markosthegnostic has posted a diagram which shows how different religions appear to teach different things at their outer levels and yet at their core they all say essentially the same thing.
Ramana Maharshi states that all mysticism can be summed up entirely in the Biblical statements "Be still and know that I AM God" and "I AM THAT I AM".
Personally I find it hilarious that man has invented so many philosophies of so much depth and complexity all to help him realize his own nature.
Edited by Deviate (12/15/13 12:15 AM)
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Deviate
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: r72rock]
#19277268 - 12/15/13 12:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
r72rock said: Good post. 
Quote:
You can never capture yourself, it's an absolute mystery, but you can know it is a mystery & stop trying to capture the mystery, stop imagining yourself to be the knowable and live as the unknowable
This is so hard to do though. I've been trying to do this lately, and to me, it feels like we're biologically driven to seek "the knowable." Part of me things it's impossible just because it's so hardwired into us. In the same way, we seem biologically driven to compartmentalize and make sense of the world around us. It just seems like nature at work.
Quote:
To abide as the unknown isn't to be ignorant as you can drop all knowledge but you can not drop yourself, the knower
This is also something that I get behind 100%... yet, I feel like this gets mixed up in ideas of a self. I feel like the self isn't real, but at the same time, we're hopelessly stuck with it. (Again, biologically) This is just some ideas that I've had in me for a while that are totally relevant to this topic.
The answer is in your sig. When we stop clinging, our biology starts to run smoothly. THink about it, do you need to expend any effort to beat your heart or circulate your blood or do these things just happen? Man's problems are all in his mind, because he has become spiritually off balance. When this balance is regained, things run smoothly again and the mind ceases to cause trouble.
I agree that it seems like just nature at work and in a sense it is just nature at work, because the imbalance that has happened is not somehow divorced from nature. And yet the imbalance covers up the fact that our true nature is happiness. This is why atheism can be so convincing. Once one has lost sight of his true nature, it becomes so easy to see the world as just a chance occurance filled with meaningless suffering. Suffering is real reason people believe in atheism. If the world was a paradise than of course we would all believe in the divine. But the atheist cannot reconcile the existence of the divine with this dark world of horrific suffering we find ourselves in.
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Icelander
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Chronic7]
#19277369 - 12/15/13 12:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I think a big problem with skeptics is that the mystics don't seem to agree on what they are experiencing or are believing much of the time. They can have very different ideas of what's going on and a lot of truly insane people tend to act like them. I can hardly then, blame the skeptic for being skeptical. 
For the most part, or at least the ones I pay attention to, they are in agreement & my experience tallies with their descriptions
For thousands of years or more humans have found love, bliss, awareness to be their essential nature
And you can only be saved by accepting Jesus unless you reside in the Bardo etc. etc. etc.
We pay attention to what we like and ignore the rest. And why not but devil is in the details.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Deviate] 1
#19277379 - 12/15/13 01:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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If the world was a paradise than of course we would all believe in the divine.
Hold on cowboy. You have the damnest ability to ignore anything you don't want to be true. I have heard several atheists here tell you in particular that they find life exceptionally beautiful just the way it is. No god or divine needed.
If the world was a paradise we would likely dispense with all this belief nonsense and just enjoy it without question. Actually it may well be that due to the fact that life is a lot of suffering the idea of the divine rose up to combat that hard truth as it was too painful for many to accept.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Icelander]
#19277394 - 12/15/13 01:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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finding life beautiful is not the same thing as finding it divine. and of course ideas about the divine gained popularity in part due to their psychological appeal but we know that the divine really does exist within the human psyche. its not just a fantasy, one can experience the divine while still on earth. what do you think the fuss over psychedelics is all about?
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Icelander
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Deviate]
#19277401 - 12/15/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I never experienced the "divine" in hundreds of psychedelic experiences. I have no idea if the "divine" exists and no one has ever shown that. The idea that something is divine is a subjective view of phenomena. You see something as divine I see it as something else or possibly something else.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Icelander]
#19277404 - 12/15/13 01:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I think a big problem with skeptics is that the mystics don't seem to agree on what they are experiencing or are believing much of the time. They can have very different ideas of what's going on and a lot of truly insane people tend to act like them. I can hardly then, blame the skeptic for being skeptical. 
For the most part, or at least the ones I pay attention to, they are in agreement & my experience tallies with their descriptions
For thousands of years or more humans have found love, bliss, awareness to be their essential nature
And you can only be saved by accepting Jesus unless you reside in the Bardo etc. etc. etc.
We pay attention to what we like and ignore the rest. And why not but devil is in the details.
Its only natural that there would be a vast amount of different interpretations. Would you really expect it to be any different? i already acknowledged that, but as i said it can all be summed up by saying that happiness is not to be found in temporary worldly things but lies in the eternal. catholics, protestants, orthodox, buddhists, hindus, muslims, etc all agree on this. do you think that is mere conincidence?
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Icelander
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Re: Spirituality is Mysticism [Re: Deviate]
#19277416 - 12/15/13 01:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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They may claim it but few act on it. That's the telling thing. I hate to rag on your church all the time but they have amassed great wealth and often by murder and theft.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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