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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



Registered: 03/05/13
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Loc: center of the universe
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Grains
#19273469 - 12/14/13 04:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Can you get away with not shaking quart jars of grain, every time I do the mycellium doesn't grow back, I know it's cause my WBS are to dry, I know I can add water, but I am just wondering.
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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SupaThaRipper
Genetics Hoarder



Registered: 09/02/13
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If its too dry then not shaking it would make it even worse. Not shaking youre jars at 20% makes colonization times much longer.
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Enigma1
Positive



Registered: 08/15/13
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Are you using gypsum? Are you using bird seed with cracked corn?
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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



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To your first question no, but I should be because I have some to your second question yes, but I have heard since I bought the shit you don't want cracked corn correct?
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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Enigma1
Positive



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Quote:
cc1 said: To your first question no, but I should be because I have some to your second question yes, but I have heard since I bought the shit you don't want cracked corn correct?
One more? Did you simmer your birdseed?
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blueconfusion
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i have no problems with cracked corn in my WBS, that is actually the mix i like cracked corn, red and white millet. if your grains are dry what are you not doing?
Edited by blueconfusion (12/14/13 07:06 AM)
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Enigma1
Positive



Registered: 08/15/13
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Quote:
blueconfusion said: i have to problems with cracked corn in my WBS, that is actually the mix i like cracked corn, red and white millet. if your grains are dry what are you not doing?
I only have problems when I simmer them.
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blueconfusion
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how long are you simmering them? i only simmer mine for 15 minutes at most.
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Enigma1
Positive



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Now I don't even simmer bring to a good boil drain and dry.
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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



Registered: 03/05/13
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That is the exact mix I bought, here is a pic
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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Enigma1
Positive



Registered: 08/15/13
Posts: 977
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Take a syringe sterilize it and suck out some of the air in the jar so you can smell it make sure it's not fermenting.
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blueconfusion
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Quote:
Enigma1 said: Now I don't even simmer bring to a good boil drain and dry.
yeah i guess simmer is not what i do but bring to boil which takes about 15 minutes...
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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



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No, smells pretty much the same as when I pulled them out of PC I think maybe I overcooked, as this was my second time doing this and I kept fucking with the heat, I think I am going to be ok though, hopefully!
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



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Whoops I didn't answer your question, the first time I did the second I did not, they both turned out pretty much the same, I personally think simmering is a waste of time as I got the same results w/o simmering!
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


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Sure, I'll take your word over 2 PC's.. the folks who have done literally thousands of PC runs should take some advice from you. Simmering, no effect. None.. Nope.
Its essential. Period!
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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Enigma1
Positive



Registered: 08/15/13
Posts: 977
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Quote:
cc1 said: No, smells pretty much the same as when I pulled them out of PC I think maybe I overcooked, as this was my second time doing this and I kept fucking with the heat, I think I am going to be ok though, hopefully!
Second time great job not giving up.
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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



Registered: 03/05/13
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I know I overstepped my boundaries there, sorry it just didn't seem to do much, but as you stated, that was only my second run , sorry bout that one! Do you guys think they will turn out ok?
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


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Simmering allows and aids deeper hydration of the grains, aswell as aiding in the drying of the grain.
Getting them very hot and introducing them to open air causes the grains to steam dry.
I open my bag, cracked corn and all..
I put it into my 30 qt PC, nearly to the top since I normally do 30 Quarts on my PC nights. Than I wrap window screen over the top of the pc and I fill and drain till the water runs clean. The last time I fill it I add gypsum, a tbl spn per 10 qts here, its all a matter of choice. Than I put a top on it, and put it in my lazy susan to SOAK for 18-22 Hours. You will smell the horriblness of germination of microbes upon opening the lid.
I do NOT rinse again, I take that water straight to the stovetop and since I fill the pc so full, I have to constantly stir to avoid the bottom burning / turning to mush.
Half hour of stiring ever few mins on medium heat and it begins to simmer, I allow that for like five mins, than collander out my grains into a large tupperware tote with even more window screen canopyd across it. I can do enough for 30 Quart Jars in one clean/soak/simmer/dry all with one pot and one " makeshift colanader "
It sits on the window screen and water runs off to the bottom, stirring every ten-fifteen minutes you'll see a massive amount of steam release off, and it will dry to the touch on its own.
The outside should be nearly completley dry, and the inside full of moisture.
Load into PC , 15 PSI at 90 Mins - Shake immediatley after taking out, allow them to lower in temperature * below 95'F * I feel is safe.
inoculate.
--------------------
The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



Registered: 03/05/13
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Thanks man, I have been trying to send this to you for 2 fucking hours almost, cell phone was all fucked up!
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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twistedty
Forcefully Retired



Registered: 07/01/12
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said: Sure, I'll take your word over 2 PC's.. the folks who have done literally thousands of PC runs should take some advice from you. Simmering, no effect. None.. Nope.
Its essential. Period!
my thoughts exactly, and my grains turn out pretty dry thats what you want really. with no simmer or boil i dunno how youre penetrating the inner grain to reach proper moisture content IN the grain.
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twistedty
Forcefully Retired



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Quote:
JMcDoogle said: Simmering allows and aids deeper hydration of the grains, aswell as aiding in the drying of the grain.
Getting them very hot and introducing them to open air causes the grains to steam dry.
I open my bag, cracked corn and all..
I put it into my 30 qt PC, nearly to the top since I normally do 30 Quarts on my PC nights. Than I wrap window screen over the top of the pc and I fill and drain till the water runs clean. The last time I fill it I add gypsum, a tbl spn per 10 qts here, its all a matter of choice. Than I put a top on it, and put it in my lazy susan to SOAK for 18-22 Hours. You will smell the horriblness of germination of microbes upon opening the lid.
I do NOT rinse again, I take that water straight to the stovetop and since I fill the pc so full, I have to constantly stir to avoid the bottom burning / turning to mush.
Half hour of stiring ever few mins on medium heat and it begins to simmer, I allow that for like five mins, than collander out my grains into a large tupperware tote with even more window screen canopyd across it. I can do enough for 30 Quart Jars in one clean/soak/simmer/dry all with one pot and one " makeshift colanader "
It sits on the window screen and water runs off to the bottom, stirring every ten-fifteen minutes you'll see a massive amount of steam release off, and it will dry to the touch on its own.
The outside should be nearly completley dry, and the inside full of moisture.
Load into PC , 15 PSI at 90 Mins - Shake immediatley after taking out, allow them to lower in temperature * below 95'F * I feel is safe.
inoculate.
perfect. i dont simmer though just once it hits boil i go straight to collander and stir to release steam/dry.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



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Walmart. $8.69 for 20 lbs.
I soak for 24 hours in weak coffee and hot tap water, drain for 2 hours, then load in jars. No simmering or boiling.
I just switched from rye to WBS and so far this seems to be working well.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



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Apparently I haven't yet because after I shake them they are having problems recouping, but it's strange that both runs produced great mycellium, until shaken, then they aren't wanting to grow back! But I'm gonna keep on trying, ecspiacially after the very informative post Jmcdoogle left!
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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twistedty
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said:

Walmart. $8.69 for 20 lbs.
thats the good stuff
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Quote:
cc1 said: Apparently I haven't yet because after I shake them they are having problems recouping, but it's strange that both runs produced great mycellium, until shaken, then they aren't wanting to grow back!
That's what bacteria does a lot of the time. Check your cultures and sterile procedures.
Quote:
SpitballJedi said:

Walmart. $8.69 for 20 lbs.
I keep a 35-gallon tote full of that stuff 
Though not simmering is lazy IMO. I get better colonization times and perfect moisture content by spending the tiny bit of time it takes to heat them to at least a steam.
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hbettag
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I had my last batch of WBS contam quite often, so I've stopped simmering all together, I rinse a hundred times, then soak in diluted coffee water14 hours then drain, then spreadout over newspaper. Is this not the best way?
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twistedty
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Quote:
hbettag said: I had my last batch of WBS contam quite often, so I've stopped simmering all together, I rinse a hundred times, then soak in diluted coffee water14 hours then drain, then spreadout over newspaper. Is this not the best way?
why coffee water
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17252080#17252080
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hbettag
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because I've read that cubes like nitrogen, so If I add coffee water to my WBS i'm able to give them lil nitro boost without screwing up the PH, or so I figure lol
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
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You are thinking of mushrooms like plants. They're quite diffferent.
Coffee is good for fungus the way it is good for people. RR has said that no one really understands why.
Interesting thing with coffee is that it does add nutrients but it also speeds up colonization times. Normally the opposite is the case, added nutes will slow colonization.
Coffee is mysterious
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hbettag
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I have no idea what the hell I'm doing, but see that for me is the fun, some say coffee some say no, I figure try both. What I do know is that when I played with Cams nothing could stop them bad boys, now these here white monsters or whatever courtesy of spores 101 they didnt really respond well to anything thus far, I will say I have seen better result with them having coffee water, compared to not, but then again im stoned so that may just be an illusion
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hbettag
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but take my advice I don't care what you read or by whom keep the grounds out of ANY bulk substrate, only issue I've had with trich has only been bulk poo based substrates that I tried using grounds in.
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invitro


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I stopped doing the simmer because I was getting a lot of exploded grains. Instead I've been heating the water to a roaring boil, then adding the grains. They seem hydrated to the core when I chew them, even then I still get exploded grains but not too bad. From there I dry them out on screens. I have screens I didn't want to go out and buy a bunch of strainers. I've got the sunny weather to pull off the screen method which I know is impractical for many.
I would think as long as you can slice open the grain and see the hydration has been complete then your good.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
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I think you guys think too much into something that isn't that complicated 
My checklist:
Grains soaked for 12-24 hours? Check. Heated to at least a steam before straining? Check. Grains look a little puffy? Check.
And the last test is the most important, checking to make sure the grains separate nice and easy after the PC cycle.
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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



Registered: 03/05/13
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This is only reishi, figured I would get some practice before I give the real deal a shot, here's a pic. Of one its getting old thought got caught up in work, I think they are still good one month old and they don't have a smell?
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



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Hey frank, have you ever grown Reishi? If so I am going to put these in wood fuel tablets, what should my ratio of spawn to substrate be, also someone told me all I have to do is pour warm water on the tablets and spawn to them, now I beleive them because I saw pics of ther grow, but I wanted your take on this,or how you do it, sorry to get off topic!
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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Enigma1
Positive



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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: I think you guys think too much into something that isn't that complicated 
My checklist:
Grains soaked for 12-24 hours? Check. Heated to at least a steam before straining? Check. Grains look a little puffy? Check.
And the last test is the most imporTetant, checking to make sure the grains separate nice and easy after the PC cycle.
Tell'em Pa
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invitro


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I've heard that you can soak grains in as little as four hours. My last batch was 5 hours and the rye grains were hydrated on the inside and slightly puffy, not too many exploded grains and separated well after pressure cooking.
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hbettag
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You know funny that you mention it, I have wondered (being the noob i am), how much is too much with regard to time in pc, see I wanted to make sure i got it sterile been going about 15-17 psi for 2 plus hours but ive often wondered if this is not maybe overkill????
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invitro


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That's 5 hours of soaking, not pressure cooking. I also did a 2 hour run at 15 psi. I don't think that's too much but I don't know for sure. It seems like it wouldn't matter as long as the pc has water because the water that leaves the grains due to heat is going to be replaced by the water that's in the air of the pressure cooker if that makes any sense.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Quote:
invitro said: I've heard that you can soak grains in as little as four hours. My last batch was 5 hours and the rye grains were hydrated on the inside and slightly puffy, not too many exploded grains and separated well after pressure cooking.
I'm sure you can.
I just find it most convenient for me to rinse the grains and get them soaking at night. Whenever I get to it (morning or afternoon) it is ready
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SpitballJedi
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Granted, i haven't done a lot of runs with WBS, but so far I'm finding simmering/boiling to be an unnecessary step.
If I seem to have issues with it later, I'll change. But until then....
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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invitro


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I'm curious to know if anyone can report on relative contam rates based on soak length.
I ask because of RR's statement: Excessive soaking is counterproductive because I've observed endospores under the microscope germinating and then forming new endospores within an hour or two. Therefore if you soak too long, you end up with more endospores than you started with.
My question is, how big a deal is this increased endospore issue?
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twistedty
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Quote:
invitro said: I'm curious to know if anyone can report on relative contam rates based on soak length.
I ask because of RR's statement: Excessive soaking is counterproductive because I've observed endospores under the microscope germinating and then forming new endospores within an hour or two. Therefore if you soak too long, you end up with more endospores than you started with.
My question is, how big a deal is this increased endospore issue?
during the summer if i soaked my wbs anything over 24 hours it would ferment and smell like vomit.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Posts: 10,573
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: Granted, i haven't done a lot of runs with WBS, but so far I'm finding simmering/boiling to be an unnecessary step.
If I seem to have issues with it later, I'll change. But until then....
You'd quickly change your mind if you try it once.
I know you're fighting it, but truth is that wbs does not clump up that badly when there is no corn present. You'll also immediately notice the better moisture content.
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twistedty
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: Granted, i haven't done a lot of runs with WBS, but so far I'm finding simmering/boiling to be an unnecessary step.
If I seem to have issues with it later, I'll change. But until then....
You'd quickly change your mind if you try it once.
I know you're fighting it, but truth is that wbs does not clump up that badly when there is no corn present. You'll also immediately notice the better moisture content.
QFT.
youre not cooking the birdseed just getting the water hot enough so it steams/evaporates from the wbs surface i assure you after a soak and a quick boil then a pc you will have enough moisture content in your grains.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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No-heat rye is the same way. It works but it kinda sucks.
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JMcDoogle
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: No-heat rye is the same way. It works but it kinda sucks.
--------------------
The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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twistedty
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: No-heat rye is the same way. It works but it kinda sucks.

your sig creeps me out.
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


Registered: 07/07/09
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Quote:
twistedty said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: No-heat rye is the same way. It works but it kinda sucks.

your sig creeps me out.
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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Stromrider
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With rye and wheat berries a simmer is almost a must. You can get by with it using wbs but not with the berries
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PussyFart
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Quote:
twistedty said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: No-heat rye is the same way. It works but it kinda sucks.

your sig creeps me out.

--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



Registered: 03/05/13
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Dude, I just took a close up look of your sig. And that shit is creepy!
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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hbettag
Stranger


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today, first pic container, second pick cake

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Imperfect Iam
^means imperfect,not I'm perfect



Registered: 03/05/13
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Fuck yeah, good luck
-------------------- All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon
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hbettag
Stranger


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Ok will post when I get home from work but have about Id guess between 40-50 from cake above, it still bothers the issue about my other cakes I mean they all went into fruiting conditions same time. I have this theory, I wonder since I did not case could my cake need to be scratched, either way I think with seeing pins on some means Im on the right track. Could it be that there just not all going to pin at the same time????
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HypnotoadCroaked
Retired, but will check MSGs

Registered: 01/05/13
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said: Simmering, no effect. None.. Nope.
Its essential. Period!
I have yet to simmer/boil one cup of bird seed, and have had no trouble. There are other cultivators who also do not simmer. I have not encountered a situation where I was concerned about water content etc. I even have used jars that were allowed to sit a month prior to inoculation....
...But where I do not simmer, I jar up slightly moist on the outside....We may just be skinning a cat a different way.
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hbettag
Stranger


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I don't simmer simply because I've read with simmering it works great but only if you get it just right, which many are able to do. The no cook method I use is fail proof thats why I like it.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Quote:
twistedty said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: No-heat rye is the same way. It works but it kinda sucks.

your sig creeps me out.




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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


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--------------------
The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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hbettag
Stranger


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Ok as promised couple pic updates. Yes I know pics aint great, but heck these lil guys is tiny. Another thing one of the other projects I checked on today has mycelium that is like 1-3 inch strands everywhere coming up through surface new one on me any suggestions on it, just asking cause thought maybe Id put it into fruiting but didnt know.But anyway here's the update pics on that pinning bulk casing.

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Fred Teddy
Flying with Turkeys


Registered: 07/18/11
Posts: 208
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Quote:
Whippy said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said: Simmering, no effect. None.. Nope.
Its essential. Period!
I have yet to simmer/boil one cup of bird seed, and have had no trouble. There are other cultivators who also do not simmer. I have not encountered a situation where I was concerned about water content etc. I even have used jars that were allowed to sit a month prior to inoculation....
...But where I do not simmer, I jar up slightly moist on the outside....We may just be skinning a cat a different way.
Me neither Whippy. Not that there is anything wrong with simmering. I weigh my wbs for water content. I know what I start with and what I should end up with. 20 - 24 hrs is usually all it takes. Rinse and rinse some more, and load jars - strained and still wet with surface water, and pc. I let my jars stabilize 24 hrs after the pc, shaking a bunch of times, and every one of the grains comes out dry on the outsides. I think a lot of people are just impatient, and want to get right to it, (and I can't blame them). There's lots of absorbing still going on long after the pc, and imo you should let the jars equalize themselves before use. As long as my wbs weighs right, is thoroughly rinsed, and the jars allowed to equalize, I get boring, consistent results every time since going this route.
I have found most water is absorbed in the first 4-6 hrs, then the rate slows down, seemingly exponentially, as time goes on till it just does no more. I also found its damned impossible to over hydrate wbs with just a soak. Brands are different. Grains are different. Absorb times are different. Millet and wheat absorb fast, milo not so fast, and popcorn you have to cook to get the weight. I shoot for 45% - 50% wc but can never seem get to 50, usually end up around 45+. I cant get rye berries where I am easily, so I have no notes on rye. I can't see why it would be any different.
Peace, FT
-------------------- ... its all about fun and games ... and no one has poked their eye out ... yet. Peace. Disclaimer: Fact is ... Its all fiction.
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