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Diploid
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Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder
#19269647 - 12/13/13 07:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So this 16 year old white kid from a wealthy family with a history of run-ins with the law, driving without a license, underage drinking, gets smashed and takes off with some friends in a pick-up truck driving at high speed through a residential area. With three times the limit of alcohol in his blood, he plows through a group of pedestrians, killing four of them including a mother and daughter. Two of his passengers are ejected from the truck leaving one paralyzed. Several others were seriously injured. After the accident, the kid fled the scene on foot. Later he was heard yelling "I am Ethan Couch! I'll get out of this!"
At the trial, his lawyers argue that he's a victim of "affluenza". This is the condition of having so much money that you don't know the difference between right and wrong, so he's not responsible. It works. The parents agree to spend a half-million dollars a year for rehab, so the judge sentences him to probation and alcohol treatment at a foofy rehab center where he will ride horses, play tennis, do yoga, and go to the beach while a team of chefs prepare poolside canapes and drinks with umbrellas in them. The judge is being criticized, but she's retiring and doesn't give a fuck.
Meanwhile, that same judge recently heard a case where a black kid with no family money punched a guy in the face. The guy fell, hit his head on concrete and died. The sentence there? Ten years in lockup.
I'm not making this shit up. I couldn't if I tried.
So, we bail out rich people when they make bad bets and lose. We shore up private corporations like GM when they make shit cars and the market buys something better from Japan. And now we allow the criminal defense of wealthy people with a made-up medical condition and they're sentenced to a spa.
WTF is going on in this country? This shit reads like a history book account of the straw that broke the camel's back and started the revolution. It's a bad day in America.
--
CNN Video
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) — A North Texas teen from an affluent family was sentenced to probation this week after he killed four pedestrians when he lost control of his speeding pickup truck while driving drunk, a punishment that outraged the victims' families and left prosecutors disappointed.
The 16-year-old boy was sentenced Tuesday in a Fort Worth juvenile court to 10 years of probation after he confessed to intoxication manslaughter in the June 15 crash on a dark rural road.
Prosecutors had sought the maximum 20 years in state custody for the Keller teen, but his attorneys appealed to state District Judge Jean Boyd that the teenager needed rehabilitation not prison, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram (http://bit.ly/1f8GnvQ ) reported.
If the boy continues to be cushioned by his family's wealth, another tragedy is inevitable, prosecutor Richard Alpert said in court.
"There can be no doubt that he will be in another courthouse one day blaming the lenient treatment he received here," Alpert said.
Authorities said the teen and friends were seen on surveillance video stealing two cases of beer from a store. He had seven passengers in his Ford F-350, was speeding and had a blood-alcohol level three times the legal limit, according to testimony during the trial. His pickup truck slammed into the four pedestrians, killing Brian Jennings, a 43-year-old Burleson youth minister; Breanna Mitchell of Lillian, 24; Shelby Boyles, 21; and her 52-year-old mother, Hollie Boyles.
Boyd said the programs available in the Texas juvenile justice system may not provide the kind of intensive therapy the teen could receive at a rehabilitation center near Newport Beach, Calif., that was suggested by his defense attorneys. The parents would pick up the tab for the center, at a cost of more than $450,000 a year for treatment.
Scott Brown, the boy's lead defense attorney, said he could have been freed after two years if he had drawn the 20-year sentence.
But instead, the judge "fashioned a sentence that could have him under the thumb of the justice system for the next 10 years," he told the Star-Telegram.
Relatives of those killed in the accident drew little comfort from that assurance.
Eric Boyles, who lost his wife and daughter, said the family's wealth helped the teen avoid incarceration.
"Money always seems to keep you out of trouble," Boyles said. "Ultimately today, I felt that money did prevail. If you had been any other youth, I feel like the circumstances would have been different."
Shaunna Jennings, the minister's widow, said her family had forgiven the teen but believed a sterner punishment was needed.
"You lived a life of privilege and entitlement, and my prayer is that it does not get you out of this," she said. "My fear is that it will get you out of this."
A psychologist called as an expert defense witness said the boy suffered from "affluenza," growing up in a house where the parents were preoccupied with arguments that led to a divorce.
The father "does not have relationships, he takes hostages," psychologist Gary Miller said, and the mother was indulgent. "Her mantra was that if it feels good, do it," he said.
Huffington Post
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19271094 - 12/13/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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How was this murder? And how do you figure he got away with it?
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19271167 - 12/13/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm using that word as a figure of speech, not literelly. This kid got away DUI manslaughter or something along those lines.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19271180 - 12/13/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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He also got 10 years probation. That's almost certain to mean he'll end up doing time down the road. It's highly unlikely he will stay out of trouble that long.
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psyconaught
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19271213 - 12/13/13 03:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: He also got 10 years probation. That's almost certain to mean he'll end up doing time down the road. It's highly unlikely he will stay out of trouble that long.
however unlikely it is he literally got his sentence reduced for being rich
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: psyconaught]
#19271248 - 12/13/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No he didn't. He got less of a sentence because he was rich. He didn't get it reduced.
Also, women routinely get probation as a sentence for DUI vehicular manslaughter.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19271409 - 12/13/13 03:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hasn't it always been like this? It's likely one reason people like weath. You can possibly get away with murder.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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psyconaught
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19271463 - 12/13/13 04:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Hasn't it always been like this? It's likely one reason people like weath. You can possibly get away with murder.
unofficially yes its always been like this. But as far as i am aware this is the first time literally nothing but being rich is what reduced the normal sentence.
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Skydawg
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: psyconaught]
#19271612 - 12/13/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ridiculousness, rich boy was never taught right from wrong and was spoiled because parents are rich and didn't have time to parent him properly your honor....oh ok, let's give this poor misunderstood boy probation and send him to a luxury rehab. Sounds legit
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: psyconaught]
#19271621 - 12/13/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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there was a bit more to it than just being rich.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19271664 - 12/13/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe so but his yelling "I am Ethan Couch! I'll get out of this!" after the crash is very telling.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19271683 - 12/13/13 05:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree. It kinda confirms what the expert said about him.
The bottom line is that character evidence and evidence of childhood abuse/neglect have been admissible for sentencing since before this country was founded. This is nothing new.
Truth be told, people with the advantages that this kid had are often punished more severely because there is no sob story to be told at sentencing.
Whether his upbringing reduces his culpability or not, I can't say....but the judge bought it.
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psyconaught
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19271716 - 12/13/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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nothing like a little prison time to give someone a dose of reality and show them responsibility for their actions.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: psyconaught]
#19271750 - 12/13/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: nothing like a little prison time to give someone a dose of reality and show them responsibility for their actions.
I don't think I agree with that. Prison rarely leads people to become better citizens. There is the occasional outlier, of course, but most people leave prison far more antisocial than they went in.
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psyconaught
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19271776 - 12/13/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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and i doubt a southern california vacation paid for by daddy will really make him a better person either.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: psyconaught]
#19271784 - 12/13/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's probably true. 10 years of probation certainly might. Having a PO keeping tabs one a person can be quite an effective rehabilitator.
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Skydawg
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19272144 - 12/13/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: That's probably true. 10 years of probation certainly might. Having a PO keeping tabs one a person can be quite an effective rehabilitator.
Sorry but your wrong on this one Rasputin.
Edited by Skydawg (12/13/13 07:29 PM)
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Seuss
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Skydawg]
#19272286 - 12/13/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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> Sorry but your wrong on this one Rasputin.
Perhaps you could enlighten us with some commentary to support your opinion?
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viktor
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19272658 - 12/13/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: the judge bought it.
I think it was more likely the other way around.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Skydawg]
#19272807 - 12/13/13 10:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Skydawg said:
Quote:
Enlil said: That's probably true. 10 years of probation certainly might. Having a PO keeping tabs one a person can be quite an effective rehabilitator.
Sorry but your wrong on this one Rasputin.
I don't think I am. Many people do quite well on probation after a few fuckups. This is particularly true of people who didn't have strong parental guidance as children. Once probationers learn that the PO isn't going to take any shit from them, many of these people learn to follow the rules.
I think this guy might just learn a lot from probation.
Or he might violate repeatedly and spend years in jail...who knows.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19273881 - 12/14/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Skydawg said:
Quote:
Enlil said: That's probably true. 10 years of probation certainly might. Having a PO keeping tabs one a person can be quite an effective rehabilitator.
Sorry but your wrong on this one Rasputin.
I don't think I am. Many people do quite well on probation after a few fuckups. This is particularly true of people who didn't have strong parental guidance as children. Once probationers learn that the PO isn't going to take any shit from them, many of these people learn to follow the rules.
I think this guy might just learn a lot from probation.
Or he might violate repeatedly and spend years in jail...who knows.
What do you mean that the P.O. isn't going to take any shit from them? What's he gonna do? Stomp his feet and call them mean names? The only power he has is the threat of jail/prison.
I don't have much truck with the rehabilitation model of the penal system (note that word. It isn't the rehab system). As a behaviorist I believe in the power of punishment. The most effective way to extinguish a behavior is through sure, immediate and severe punishment.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19274068 - 12/14/13 10:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's exactly what he'll do, send the guy to prison for a few months and then still be on his ass when he gets out and for years thereafter.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19274403 - 12/14/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: That's exactly what he'll do, send the guy to prison for a few months and then still be on his ass when he gets out and for years thereafter.
Which is it?
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19271750#19271750
Quote:
I don't think I agree with that. Prison rarely leads people to become better citizens. There is the occasional outlier, of course, but most people leave prison far more antisocial than they went in.
--------------------
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19274449 - 12/14/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's both. Life isn't quite as black and white as you seem to think it is.
Short prison stays with post-incarceration supervision is far more effective at rehabilitating that straight prison time.
The supervision part is the key, of course. This guy having to answer to his PO on a regular basis will eventually teach him consequences and structure, although it's pretty pathetic that he hasn't been able to learn all of that a priori.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19274588 - 12/14/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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But haven't you just yourself rejected rehabilitation model by advocating the punishment model?
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orison
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19274605 - 12/14/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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violations of probation maybe 5yrs down the road will revoke the whole sentence. paper sucks even for the rich, can only buy your way out of so many technicals before judge throws the book at you.
as others explained he didnt get away with it..
In Texas: its a usual thing to give a man long enough rope to hang himself.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19274629 - 12/14/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: But haven't you just yourself rejected rehabilitation model by advocating the punishment model?
I haven't rejected either model. A good portion of offenders can be rehabilitated. Another good portion can never be rehabilitated. Some punishment can have a rehabilitative effect as well. Again, it's not a black and white world.
By and large, the prison system doesn't rehabilitate and it's not designed to. In many cases it does just the opposite.
The probation system is designed to rehabilitate, and it is relatively effective compared to the prison system.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19274716 - 12/14/13 01:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Without the prison system the probation system is nothing.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19274844 - 12/14/13 01:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yup...which is why we need both
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19275016 - 12/14/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why bother with the middleman?
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19275053 - 12/14/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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For cases where rehabilitation has a chance to succeed and it's cheaper to supervise than to feed and house.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19275858 - 12/14/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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A godsend for those busted for growing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander] 2
#19278685 - 12/15/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I got a better idea. Stop arresting people for drugs. All of the drugs.
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dionysiandame
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19278728 - 12/15/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't know why anyone is surprised about this at all. This is how things have been since civilization took off and I highly doubt it's going to change. I don't know if you ever saw the movie Aladdin as a kid but the begger who leads Aladdin to the Cave of Wonders says;
"Rememeber the golden rule. Whoever has the gold makes the rules."
Which is true as all hell. It's how rich people get away with hit and runs, drug charges, and only the gods know what else while someone with less funding or celebrity is thrown the book...tied with bricks because #teachingalesson.
I once read (and I wish I could find it) that the reason this is done is because wealthy individuals, used to more luxuries, are more easily punished by taking the slightest thing away. It's convoluted bullshit and continues to reaffirm why I refuse to pledge allegiance to this country. What fool would pledge loyalty to a place more than willing to condemn her for not being part of the wealthy class?
-------------------- He (Dionysos) keeps me with all of his other pretty things for I am just another pretty thing in a long list of acquisitions. Yes! And their brains are releasing adrenaline, dopamine, even dimethyltryptamine from the pineal gland! This has serious educational value! Thanatophobia and this N.D.E. is giving us euphoric altered awareness! Don't you see, Princess? We were all born to die! – Finn the Human Pay me what you owe me. Don't act like you forgot. BBHMM.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19278735 - 12/15/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That'd be far too sensible.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: dionysiandame]
#19279183 - 12/15/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dionysiandame said: I don't know why anyone is surprised about this at all. This is how things have been since civilization took off and I highly doubt it's going to change. I don't know if you ever saw the movie Aladdin as a kid but the begger who leads Aladdin to the Cave of Wonders says;
"Rememeber the golden rule. Whoever has the gold makes the rules."
Which is true as all hell. It's how rich people get away with hit and runs, drug charges, and only the gods know what else while someone with less funding or celebrity is thrown the book...tied with bricks because #teachingalesson.
They can hire better lawyers who insist on being paid more than public defenders. I got an idea to equalize a bit. Get rid of the lawyers. Quote:
I once read (and I wish I could find it) that the reason this is done is because wealthy individuals, used to more luxuries, are more easily punished by taking the slightest thing away. It's convoluted bullshit and continues to reaffirm why I refuse to pledge allegiance to this country. What fool would pledge loyalty to a place more than willing to condemn her for not being part of the wealthy class?
Who has condemned you for not being wealthy?
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19279401 - 12/15/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That'd be far too sensible.
I thought you were a prohibitionist. Did you change your mind or did I have it wrong??
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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psyconaught
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19279643 - 12/15/13 02:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: That'd be far too sensible.
I thought you were a prohibitionist. Did you change your mind or did I have it wrong??
i don't think i've ever seen enill support drug prohibition
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: psyconaught] 1
#19279718 - 12/15/13 02:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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i don't think i've ever seen enill support drug prohibition
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15918400#15918400
Quote:
Enlil said: I don't believe that any and all drugs should be legal
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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psyconaught
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19279759 - 12/15/13 02:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: i don't think i've ever seen enill support drug prohibition
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15918400#15918400
Quote:
Enlil said: I don't believe that any and all drugs should be legal
i stand corrected. I had never seen that before but now i have.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: psyconaught]
#19279788 - 12/15/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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How could he make a living without it?
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19280105 - 12/15/13 04:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: That'd be far too sensible.
I thought you were a prohibitionist. Did you change your mind or did I have it wrong??
I've never supported arresting and jailing people for possession of drugs, though. I've said many times that it shouldn't be a crime.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil] 1
#19280543 - 12/15/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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But you do support the abducting of peaceful drug users, at gunpoint by thugs with badges if necessary, to compel them into residential drug treatment even if they have harmed no one.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19280580 - 12/15/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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How do you think he makes a living? If drug laws go away he will have a lot fewer clients.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19280598 - 12/15/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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He makes a living practicing law in the same way you make a living doing what you do. I'm sure he has nothing to do with drugs being illegal.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19280640 - 12/15/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: He makes a living practicing law in the same way you make a living doing what you do. I'm sure he has nothing to do with drugs being illegal.
He makes a significant portion of his living defending people arrested for drugs. If drugs become legal he will lose a significant portion of his potential clientele. I could increase my potential work load by torching houses but I don't advocate arson. Instead of torching houses the drug laws are torching lives and creating work for lawyers and jailors.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19280852 - 12/15/13 07:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: But you do support the abducting of peaceful drug users, at gunpoint by thugs with badges if necessary, to compel them into residential drug treatment even if they have harmed no one.
No, but feel free to put words in my mouth.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19280869 - 12/15/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
He makes a significant portion of his living defending people arrested for drugs. If drugs become legal he will lose a significant portion of his potential clientele.
As I said before, I don't support criminal prosecution of anyone for possession. This is true even though a significant amount of my work was defending people prosecuted for possession.
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imachavel
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19280920 - 12/15/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I'm using that word as a figure of speech, not literelly. This kid got away DUI manslaughter or something along those lines.
Really good lawyers like to get paid. This isnt old news
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19281019 - 12/15/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, but feel free to put words in my mouth.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17567513#17567513
Quote:
Enlil said: I don't see forced treatment as punishment...diploid does. We're never going to agree on that point...
Drug addiction is the antithesis of autonomy and/or freedom. Forcibly treating a heroin addict, while clearly restricting autonomy temporarily can have the effect of giving a person back his autonomy in the long-run.
That reads to me like you are in favor of forced treatment of drug users who have harmed no one. So let's clear this up because I'd like to stand corrected if I'm wrong. Do you or do you not support any case of forced treatment of peaceful drug users?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19281052 - 12/15/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said: He makes a living practicing law in the same way you make a living doing what you do. I'm sure he has nothing to do with drugs being illegal.
He makes a significant portion of his living defending people arrested for drugs. If drugs become legal he will lose a significant portion of his potential clientele. I could increase my potential work load by torching houses but I don't advocate arson. Instead of torching houses the drug laws are torching lives and creating work for lawyers and jailors.
And what does he have to do with the creation of these laws???? His job is to defend people who are being charged with crimes, whatever they are. Relating what he does to torching houses doesn't make much sense. 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19281083 - 12/15/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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As I have said many times, I wouldn't rule out forced treatment if it is proven effective and necessary. I would never, however, force treatment at gunpoint as you suggested earlier.
This is, of course, completely off topic.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19281097 - 12/15/13 08:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I wouldn't rule out forced treatment
Translation: You do support the abducting of peaceful drug users, at gunpoint by thugs with badges if necessary, to compel them into residential drug treatment even if they have harmed no one.
I would never, however, force treatment at gunpoint as you suggested earlier.
How the fuck else does society force someone to do something they are unwilling to do? Use harsh language?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19281124 - 12/15/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There are plenty of ways. People are civilly committed every day in this country without anyone pulling a gun. The threat of deadly force is antithetical to the goal of helping someone.
We've gone back and forth on this plenty of times, and every time you resort to straw man argument by ascribing a position to me that I do not advocate. I'm not going to participate in more of the same in this thread about a drunk driver who got probation for manslaughter.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19281160 - 12/15/13 08:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There are plenty of ways. People are civilly committed every day in this country without anyone pulling a gun.
How? Stop beating around the bush. Tell me exactly how I would be forced to into an involuntary drug treatment program I absolutely refuse to enter if not by police force.
I'm not going to participate
That's because your insistence that someone can be forced to do something without applying force is full of shit and you know it. So you run and hide instead of defend your argument or face up to the fact that you are a prohibitionist who agrees with morality laws and the forcible abduction and confinement of peaceful drug users who use in the privacy of their home and bother no one.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19281220 - 12/15/13 08:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not at all, but you're welcome to assume all you want. It appears to be your modus operandi on this topic, anyway.
I've given you many hours of my time on this topic, mostly because you generally have proven to be a rational thinker. On this topic, however, you're anything but. There is no having a rational discussion with you because you are incapable of doing so without tacking all of your assumptions to everything I say.
At some point in the last discussion, I realized that you're far too personally invested in the topic to discuss it reasonably. Everything I say gets "translated" into tons of things that I never said, and then I'm in the position to defend all of those things that you claim I said. It's exhausting and pointless.
Truthfully, if I thought there was even a scintilla of hope that you could approach the topic objectively, professionally, and rationally, I'd probably spend another 10 hours going back and forth with you. That hope died many months ago, though, and I see no point in continuing.
Feel free, however, to assume whatever you want of me...up to, and including, that I advocate sacrificing puppies to Cthulu....Don't let reason or truth get in the way of a good story.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil] 2
#19281262 - 12/15/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Blah, blah, blah. 
Translation: I, in fact, can't tell you how society can force someone into an involuntary drug treatment program they absolutely refuse to enter without using police force. So instead of answering your simple question, I'll type up a long non-answer to muddy the water and hope nobody notices that I am an avowed prohibitionist.
Got it. Thanks for confirming what already knew.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19281266 - 12/15/13 08:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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And thank you for illustrating my last post in an excellent fashion.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19281282 - 12/15/13 08:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You know, you can shut me up really easily by simply answering my question. How does society force someone to do something they absolutely will not do? It would take a lot less time and effort to answer than to write all that irrelevant crap you've been writing.
Why, pray tell, won't you answer unless you know there is no answer and I've painted you into a corner your ego won't allow you to acknowledge?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19281815 - 12/15/13 11:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Maybe so but his yelling "I am Ethan Couch! I'll get out of this!" after the crash is very telling.
haha i gotta use that line one of these days. this is no new story in my opinion. wealthy people can afford better attorneys, thus better loopholes. kind of common sense. its not just america, you can find that type of behavior pretty much anywhere.
this is specifically why I do not ride my bike WITH the flow of traffic. i dont trust sober people, much less a drunken teenager
-------------------- notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... " ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19282489 - 12/16/13 05:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: You know, you can shut me up really easily by simply answering my question. How does society force someone to do something they absolutely will not do? It would take a lot less time and effort to answer than to write all that irrelevant crap you've been writing.
Why, pray tell, won't you answer unless you know there is no answer and I've painted you into a corner your ego won't allow you to acknowledge?
I think you're both pretty invested in the topic. 
And since this thread is now officially derailed by a moderator I'm going to put in my two cents.
No one, not harming another/s should be forced to deal with their problems once they are of age. All bets are off however if they are harming others. Having said that we as a society are obliged to offer them no enabling of their problems either. If they want to die in the gutter then so be it. However if we really were to offer some compassionate help as a society it's likely more than a few would avail themselves of it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Phred
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19282520 - 12/16/13 05:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: There are plenty of ways. People are civilly committed every day in this country without anyone pulling a gun.
Only because everyone knows that if the person being committed refuses to go, ultimately the guns will appear.
What do you think happens in real life, Enlil? You think that if you barricade yourself in your apartment and spring a series of ingenious non-lethal "Home Alone" booby traps on them the Sheriff's boys will eventually shake their heads in admiration at your plucky resistance and walk away, never to return?
Quote:
The threat of deadly force is antithetical to the goal of helping someone.
The threat of deadly force is required to get people to do things they really really don't want to do.
Phred
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19282533 - 12/16/13 05:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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My position has always been that forced treatment would be morally permissible if:
1. It had a good chance of being effective, and 2. It was necessary - Meaning that the person has become addicted to the point where they are no longer able to make rational decisions about their own well-being.
This is no different than the current civil commitment process by which severely mentally ill people are protected from themselves. The fact is that certain conditions attack a human in ways that make it difficult or impossible for them to exercise their free will anymore. Addiction, in extreme cases, can be one of those conditions.
Diploid has turned that into an endorsement for busting down people's doors and dragging them off to rehab at gunpoint. That is never something I advocated.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Phred]
#19282558 - 12/16/13 05:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: The threat of deadly force is required to get people to do things they really really don't want to do.
People can be overpowered by force and taken places they don't want to go, without anyone having a gun. It happens all the time. Mental hospitals have been using the "outnumber and overpower" technique for many years. Threat of deadly force is neither necessary nor effective at ensuring compliance by a person who is that far gone.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19282723 - 12/16/13 07:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is no different than the current civil commitment process by which severely mentally ill people are protected from themselves.
Well I'm going to give you that is a valid point and supports your position. Of course this opens up the huge problem of civil abuse of peoples rights. I'm of the opinion that in the real fucked up world it would be better to let some people fall then take the risk of govt. using this power to force people into behaviors they don't want to make that are not against the law or harmful to others but benefit certain peoples moral agendas about people's behaviors.
I believe your motivations for your beliefs are benign and I certainly don't think they are malicious as others here seem to but I think there is just too much chance for things to go badly in this regard.
It's certainly a sad state of affairs because drug addiction is one ugly situation for those hopelessly addicted. In nature the weak fall prey and maybe there are times when we should follow that dictate so that other freedoms are protected.
An interesting topic for sure. I have to deal with addictions problems myself so I know the drill to some extent. It's no joke. In fact it's a rock and hard place deal imo. Many feel that their culture and opportunities for a good life is so restrictive they turn to drugs for solace so there is not much one can offer an addict if they try to quit and from my experience if you don't have something to replace an addiction it's not going to stick.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil] 1
#19282739 - 12/16/13 08:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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People can be overpowered by force and taken
Not if they barricade themselves and put up a fight. If someone came to take me to drug treatment because I use a substanance you find morally objectionable, you can bet your last penny that they will take me out in a body bag. I will shoot or whatever else it takes to make them back off if they try to bust down my door to "outnumber/overpower" me. Many people feel this way and the harder this absurd drug war is pushed on people minding their own business by our out-of-control government, the more entrenched this attitude becomes.
Moronic, self-righteous, I-will-save-you attitudes like this are one of the reasons we are breeding domestic terrorism.
at ensuring compliance by a person who is that far gone.
Fuck anyone who thinks they have the right to "fix" another they don't agree with. If I want to shoot up heroin, drink bleach, shove dildos up my ass, or anything else in the privacy of my home that harms no one, neither you nor anyone else has the right to tell me that I am "far gone" and need involuntary saving.
Look around you. The drug war doesn't work. It has cost us billions and counting. If you don't like drugs, don't use drugs. Leave those who don't agree with you alone. This is retardedly simple.
Threat of deadly force is neither necessary nor effective
What is neither necessary nor effective is the forced treatment of someone who doesn't want it. As I've told you many times, the first rule of drug treatment is that the treated must WANT to stop. If they're happy with their life, whether you find that life abhorrent or not, it's THEIR GOD DAMNED LIFE to nurture or abuse as they see fit.
You are not my nanny and neither is the government.
And yeah, the thread is derailed, but since I'm the OP, have at it.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19282763 - 12/16/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree that government is not the best place for such issues to be decided, and I also agree that there is a strong potential for abuse. This is why I haven't gone so far as advocating government compelled treatment...I simply haven't ruled out the possibility.
Frankly, I don't know if it's possible to create a system with enough checks and balances to address those who truly need the help and are unable to choose it for themselves, while still protecting one's right to autonomy. It's a tricky situation, for sure. I am open, however, to the possibility that such a system could be put in place.
In any case, the system we have now isn't solving the societal problem of drug abuse and addiction, and it's long past the time when we just admit that and try something radically different.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19282768 - 12/16/13 08:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think you're both pretty invested in the topic.I think you're both pretty invested in the topic.
Fuck yes I have a vested interest in this position. Being locked up by a tyrannical government bent on dictating my private behavior is my overriding daily concern. Every fucking day I live in fear that someone with Enlil's attitude will land me in a government cage with rapists fucking me in the ass and murderers attacking me as a mater of daily life (or in residential treatment with bars on the windows which is the same thing in my book) because I have an illegal plant in my pocket. As a fellow drug user, you should be as concerned about this as I am.
I will shoot back and die if necessary before I will allow that and fortunately I live in a country where otherwise law-abiding citizens are still allowed to carry guns.
Our founding fathers were visionaries far ahead of their time when they wrote the 2nd.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19282789 - 12/16/13 08:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't know if it's possible to create a system with enough checks and balances to address those who truly need the help and are unable to choose it for themselves
Who are you or anyone else to decide this of someone who has harmed no one? This same argument might have been used 100 years ago to commit homosexuals who "truly need the help". It was used to justify imprisoning alcoholics during prohibition. It is used to justify locking up prostitutes today.
Hell, you are even on the record in favor of forced drug treatment of addicts to nicotine and alcohol.
WTF? I mean W-T-F?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19282930 - 12/16/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I think you're both pretty invested in the topic.I think you're both pretty invested in the topic.
Fuck yes I'm in vested in this position. Being locked up by a tyrannical government bent on dictating my private behavior is my overriding daily concern. Every fucking day I live in fear that someone with Enlil's attitude will land me in a government cage with rapists fucking me in the ass and murderers attacking me as a mater of daily life (or in residential treatment which is just as bad in my book) because I have an illegal plant in my pocket. As a fellow drug user, you should be as concerned about this as I am.
I will shoot back and die if necessary before I will allow that and fortunately I live in a country where otherwise law-abiding citizens are still allowed to carry guns.
Our founding fathers were visionaries far ahead of their time when they wrote the 2nd.
 I agree. As I stated the potential for abuse of power is too great to put such a program into effect due to the immaturity and dishonestly of those in power positions. Even then I think free will to wreak your life should be a right of all of us drug addicts as long as we don't hurt others directly.
At my age however my overriding concern has to do with the ease of my bowel movements. Now where did I put those fucking prunes? Anybody fucking me up the ass isn't going to be happy with the result.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19282966 - 12/16/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Even then I think free will to wreak your life should be a right of all of us drug addicts as long as we don't hurt others directly.
Free will is where the problem comes in, though. In many cases, addiction can trump free will. While the argument can be made that choosing to use in the first place was an exercise of free will, it's a bit of a stretch to argue that people willingly chose to become addicted to the point where they relinquish all free will.
For me, that's the key point...when addiction is so extreme that it overrides one's ability to rationally choose anymore, then there isn't any free will at play. That addict is already a slave, and it's absurd to pretend that continuing to feed that addiction is an expression of his/her autonomy.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19282990 - 12/16/13 09:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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This could be applied to so many things mental that you could lock up people for just about anything and find a way to justify it. What a slippery slope you would be having us traveling. While I agree that humans may for many reasons lose their ability to exercise anything that I might call free choice I don't in any way consider that the job of the govt. It's way too fucking prone to abuse.
I'm going to have to go with Diploid on this one. I think your position doesn't make sense with what you and I both know about humanity in the real world. Sometimes it's going to be the greater good to let some people fail.
I agree much of what we are doing isn't working but this would not be my fix. I think Nancy Reagan failed us. 
The fix is likely in the home and our educational system.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19283012 - 12/16/13 09:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You're entitled to your opinion. For me, I have seen far too many people lose all sense of humanity because of addiction. If there was a method to pull them from that place, I'd be all for it. Every system can be abused, but that's not a reason to throw one's hands up and give up.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19283028 - 12/16/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Who's giving up? I'm saying we have to try another direction. The direction you would have us go would be unfortunately a disaster imo. I just don't trust the intentions of those in power and with good reason.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19283074 - 12/16/13 10:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What direction would I have you go, exactly?
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19283133 - 12/16/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Like I said work in education and then providing easy access opportunities that are safe for those who want to voluntarily stop use. I'm guessing that most have at least tried to quit several times but found any societal help to be a messed up poorly funded and supervised non starter and they couldn't make it on their own.
Of course imo none of this is going to happen. This culture is too fucked up around these issues to deal honestly with them. And like I said you have to offer the addict something to replace the addiction with in the form of a better life. Jailing won't do that and just helping them kick won't do it.
Maybe we will just need to face the facts of life here and admit that like war and other ugly shit humanity overall is not at a place to deal with these issues in a healthy manner.
Hell I need my Kratom to get through my days and most people would say I have it made and why should I need an opiate type fix to feel good. But the fact is that life is much more doable for me when I can get high for part of each day. I'm smart enough to get hooked on a legal and fairly benign, as far as kicking, drug. Still I recently tried to go cold turkey and couldn't do it. I have managed to cut back though.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19283138 - 12/16/13 10:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You said, "The direction you would have us go would be unfortunately a disaster imo"
So what direction would I have you go?
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19283268 - 12/16/13 10:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You're entitled to your opinion.
This is disingenuous. If you believed this, you would not insist that drug users whose opinion differs from yours should be forcibly treated. Especially when they have harmed no one and can lucidly and clearly articulate that they are satisfied with their life of drug use and want to be left alone.
I have seen far too many people lose all sense of humanity because of addiction.
So what? You are not their nanny and adults have a right to make stoopid decisions. JEZUS! What is it going to take to get that through your head?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Phred
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19283437 - 12/16/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:People can be overpowered by force and taken places they don't want to go, without anyone having a gun.
Some people, in some situations. That is insufficient. In order to enforce prohibition the authorities have to be willing to do whatever it takes regardless of the situation. This necessarily means there will be situations where the guns come out. Stop trying to weasel around this undeniable fact. It makes you look absurd.
Quote:
Mental hospitals have been using the "outnumber and overpower" technique for many years.
The trick isn't figuring out how best to herd them once they have been incarcerated in an asylum, the trick is how to get them into the asylum in the first place.
Quote:
Threat of deadly force is neither necessary nor effective at ensuring compliance by a person who is that far gone.
Now you're just being ridiculous. The credible threat of deadly force is ultimately the very foundation of all enforcement of all laws. It is both necessary and effective.
Phred
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Phred]
#19283485 - 12/16/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Who's talking about enforcing prohibition other than you and diploid? I'm talking about using forced treatment of an illness in the most extreme of cases....nothing about enforcing prohibition at all. I'm not even advocating that we do it. I'm just saying I wouldn't be morally opposed to it if it were proven necessary and effective...and we could work out adequate checks and balances
I don't know what dream world you live in, but in my experience, someone who is addicted to the point I'm talking about doesn't give a rats ass about death, and couldn't care less if someone threatened him/her with deadly force.
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Edited by Enlil (12/16/13 12:14 PM)
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19283658 - 12/16/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm talking about using force to compel one to an inpatient center in the most extreme of cases
Extreme as in heroin addiction? Here's something to draw out and highlight the absurdity of your position. Nicotine (which, dear reader, Enlil believes should also be illegal) is "as addictive as heroin, cocaine, and amphetamines, and for most people more addictive than alcohol" (which Enlil believes should be illegal too). That quote is from a NY Times interview with Dr. Sharon Hall, University of California's San Francisco medical school. I've linked you this before so I know you know it.
I don't know what dream world you live in, but in my experience, someone who is addicted to the point I'm talking about
Then what happens to the non-extreme cases which constitutes the vast majority of drug users? People like me, for example, with no criminal record who pay their taxes, never drive fucked up, help their neighbors, and mind their own business while using drugs in the privacy of their own home? I've asked you this many times and you have steadfastly insisted that ANY addiction constitutes a loss of free will and that justifies forcible drug treatment. So which is it?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19283893 - 12/16/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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This kid is a little punk who won't learn anything from the "therapy" he will attend. He said he wasn't responsible for his actions. Yeah you are motherfucker. You are responsible for killing people. It would be manslaughter if he knew he made a mistake, but he doesn't even care. He just didn't want to go to prison. Fuck the rich. If I ever make a lot of money it won't be to help out other rich people, fucking unenlightened pieces of shit. Fuck Texas, fuck Florida, and fuck any other state that thinks its okay to kill a innocent person because of their ethnicity or because you are drunk and you aren't responsible for your actions. Fuck everyone who got rich fucking people over. Fuck.
-------------------- "As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe "Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: mindgnome]
#19283905 - 12/16/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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He's also 16 years old. That probably has as much to do with it as his socio-economic status.
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mindgnome
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19283922 - 12/16/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah but I am talking about him feeling guilt. This motherfucker got off guilt free because he is a dickbag. The news story said he didn't think he was guilty. I was 16 once and I did stupid shit but if I had killed 4 people when I was drunk I would feel terrible. I see through the bullshit.
-------------------- "As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe "Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: mindgnome]
#19283926 - 12/16/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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He doesn't have to think he's guilty. He was convicted and sentenced. He's guilty.
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mindgnome
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19283946 - 12/16/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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He was sentenced to probation.... I don't know about you but a guy that doesn't think he is guilty for killing people when he was drunk is someone I don't want to be a part of society. It is a good sign he is just going to fuck more shit up when he gets older.
-------------------- "As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe "Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin
Edited by mindgnome (12/16/13 01:36 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: mindgnome]
#19283953 - 12/16/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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He sure was. 10 years of it. He needs it, too.
What is your source for your claim that he "doesn't think he's guilty"? He did confess, after all.
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mindgnome
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19284083 - 12/16/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Texas teen claims "affluenza" rendered him blameless in a fatal DUI crash" - Cnn.com
-------------------- "As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe "Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: mindgnome]
#19284088 - 12/16/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So your source is the commentary of a news site, and not a direct quote. You'll forgive me if I doubt its accuracy.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19284115 - 12/16/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: You said, "The direction you would have us go would be unfortunately a disaster imo"
So what direction would I have you go?
As a society? Forcing addicts to get treatment. This could include me.
Then what, forced treatment for disease you want to let run it's course even if it might end in death?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19284150 - 12/16/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I never advocated for forced treatment in this thread. I said I wouldn't morally object to it if it is proven necessary and effective. I never said I would "have you go" in that direction.
You're turning into diploid here assuming shit I didn't say and putting words in my mouth.
And as far as forced treatment goes, we do that for unconscious patients...Why shouldn't we do it for other people that are so ill that they are incapable of making rational decisions for themselves?
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19284338 - 12/16/13 02:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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mindgnome said: "Texas teen claims "affluenza" rendered him blameless in a fatal DUI crash" - Cnn.com
In fact, he plead guilty and your link is just a reporter's commentary. To my knowledge, Couch hasn't spoken to the media. However, I agree with you that his guilty plea doesn't ring sincere in light of his statements at the scene about "getting out of this" because of who he is.
Enlil said: So what direction would I have you go?
How about letting adults run their life as they see fit instead of locking them in a drug treatment cage, then using the $30,000+ a year saved to pay for the treatment of drug users who WANT treatment or who commit a crime that has an actual victim? Nah, that makes too much sense and there is an army of law enforcement, treatment, and judicial employees plus a private prison industry who would lobby against it for fear of loosing their livelihood if we began respecting the private behavior decisions of otherwise law-abiding adults in our society.
You're turning into diploid here assuming shit I didn't say and putting words in my mouth.
That will stop the moment you explain how you would get me out of my house and into treatment without using guns when I barricade myself in and prepare to shoot you. It's a very simple question and you should perhaps look inward for the real reason you refuse to answer it and what that says about your conviction in your above assertion.
And as far as forced treatment goes, we do that for unconscious patients
No one here is talking about unconscious people besides you. The rest of us are talking about an unwilling and armed (but otherwise peaceful) drug user minding his own business.
Get with the program, Enlil.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19284836 - 12/16/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: I never advocated for forced treatment in this thread. I said I wouldn't morally object to it if it is proven necessary and effective. I never said I would "have you go" in that direction.
You're turning into diploid here assuming shit I didn't say and putting words in my mouth.
And as far as forced treatment goes, we do that for unconscious patients...Why shouldn't we do it for other people that are so ill that they are incapable of making rational decisions for themselves?
You wouldn't morally object if others did it to me though. Thanks for nuttin. 
I think it's wrong for unconscious patients also btw. If I have no insurance and I'm in a car wreck the doctors have carte blanc to go to town on me and then demand payment later on right down to taking my home and savings from me. Fuck that shit. Happened to a coworker of my Sister in Michigan. She lost her retirement and home.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19284873 - 12/16/13 04:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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To you? I'd almost certainly morally object to that. You don't seem to be addicted to the point that you've lost the ability to rationally make decisions for yourself.
To Diploid: You can keep making up all of the lies you want, it's not going to convince me to engage in this debate with you. Unless/until you correct the misstatements about me in this thread and apologize for making them in the first place, I've no reason to discuss this subject with you.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19284994 - 12/16/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Enlil said: I never advocated for forced treatment in this thread. I said I wouldn't morally object to it if it is proven necessary and effective. I never said I would "have you go" in that direction.
You're turning into diploid here assuming shit I didn't say and putting words in my mouth.
And as far as forced treatment goes, we do that for unconscious patients...Why shouldn't we do it for other people that are so ill that they are incapable of making rational decisions for themselves?
You wouldn't morally object if others did it to me though. Thanks for nuttin. 
I think it's wrong for unconscious patients also btw. If I have no insurance and I'm in a car wreck the doctors have carte blanc to go to town on me and then demand payment later on right down to taking my home and savings from me. Fuck that shit. Happened to a coworker of my Sister in Michigan. She lost her retirement and home.
Yeah, I agree. Fuck that shit, you should obviously just be abandoned and left for dead with the only expenses extracted from your estate for a nice swift cremation.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19285005 - 12/16/13 05:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you can't give verbal consent at the scene, they should just leave you in the wrecked car and ship it off to be crushed with you in it. Who are they to pull you out of the car by force without your consent?
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19285093 - 12/16/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sounds like a kidnapping to me. Do you think they should just light the car on fire and save the expense?
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19285136 - 12/16/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That would only be fair in a no fault state if they burned all the cars involved and made sure all parties are in their vehicles.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19285163 - 12/16/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Fair"? Fuck fair. Fair is for kindergarten.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19285218 - 12/16/13 05:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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To you? I'd almost certainly morally object to that. You don't seem to be addicted to the point that you've lost the ability to rationally make decisions for yourself.
Except that you are on the record contradicting this, which is the crux of my disagreement with you. You have said you would lock up and forcibly treat [paraphrasing] "anyone addicted to a substance, including nicotine and alcohol".
Do you want me to dig up some quotes? Or did you change your mind and now think forced treatment should only apply to people so addicted that they can't function even to defend themselves from busybody prohibitionists on a mission to save them?
Unless/until you correct the misstatements about me in this thread and apologize for making them in the first place, I've no reason to discuss this subject with you.
I'm basing my comments on direct quotations from this and other threads which I've provided links to.
This one, for example:
Quote:
As I have said many times, I wouldn't rule out forced treatment if it is proven effective and necessary.
I would never, however, force treatment at gunpoint as you suggested earlier.
That is an unqualified statement that applies to all drug users (including Icelander) and seems pretty clear on its face. Unless you can tell me how you would lock me in a drug treatment program without using police and guns when I put up a barricade and prepare to defend myself, then you have no grounds to an indignant claim that I'm misrepresenting you.
Answer my fucking question or acknowledge that you can't.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19285276 - 12/16/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh, and I find it absolutely hilarious that you accuse me of emotional arguments, then proceed to shit in my ratings when you can't defend your position or even answer a simple, apropos question about it. That's some funny shit man.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19285485 - 12/16/13 07:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: You have said you would lock up and forcibly treat [paraphrasing] "anyone addicted to a substance, including nicotine and alcohol"

Quote:
Enlil said: I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who can responsibly manage their addiction be forced into treatment. Certain addicts reach a point where they have completely lost the ability to rationally control their behavior. These are the people that need treatment...mandatory if necessary. If a person has reached the point where their brain is so fucked up that antisocial behavior is inevitable, I feel it's much cheaper to treat them than keep incarcerating them.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17869254#17869254
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19285521 - 12/16/13 07:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Enlil said: I never advocated for forced treatment in this thread. I said I wouldn't morally object to it if it is proven necessary and effective. I never said I would "have you go" in that direction.
You're turning into diploid here assuming shit I didn't say and putting words in my mouth.
And as far as forced treatment goes, we do that for unconscious patients...Why shouldn't we do it for other people that are so ill that they are incapable of making rational decisions for themselves?
You wouldn't morally object if others did it to me though. Thanks for nuttin. 
I think it's wrong for unconscious patients also btw. If I have no insurance and I'm in a car wreck the doctors have carte blanc to go to town on me and then demand payment later on right down to taking my home and savings from me. Fuck that shit. Happened to a coworker of my Sister in Michigan. She lost her retirement and home.
Yeah, I agree. Fuck that shit, you should obviously just be abandoned and left for dead with the only expenses extracted from your estate for a nice swift cremation.
But here's the rub. I cannot have a signed statement on me saying I don't want to be resuscitated or have heroic measures in the hospital if I'm seriously injured and unconscious and have that be honored. Once I'm out I have no more rights. How is that freedom?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19285546 - 12/16/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why can't you have a "do not resuscitate" order?
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19285563 - 12/16/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's the real problem. People should have the option of refusing treatment with an advanced directive. That could even work for forced drug treatment as long as the person is capable of rational decision making when the directive is executed.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19285661 - 12/16/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's what I want to know?
Anyway, way the fuck off topic
Obummer will take care of me now anyway.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19285665 - 12/16/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Is he cutting the check?
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19285709 - 12/16/13 07:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yep.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19285804 - 12/16/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Back on-off-on-topic: 
Quote:
Enlil said: I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who can responsibly manage their addiction be forced into treatment. Certain addicts reach a point where they have completely lost the ability to rationally control their behavior. These are the people that need treatment...mandatory if necessary. If a person has reached the point where their brain is so fucked up that antisocial behavior is inevitable, I feel it's much cheaper to treat them than keep incarcerating them.
Alright, I'll stipulate to this. You've still not told me how exactly you would force someone who puts up a fight into drug treatment without using police force. BTW, a few posts down from that quote you follow up with this:
Quote:
Enlil said: For me, the line is when the addiction replaces volition to the point that a person have a strong potential to harm another.
An addict is someone who has lost volitional control of their drug use. That is part of the definition. You can't have it both ways and tell me that you would force treatment of addicts who have lost volitional control but not addicts who still have volitional control. There is no such thing as an in-control addict and neither you nor anyone else can predict the future or the potential of an addict to harm another. You can't ethically force drug treatment of people who have harmed no one for something they MIGHT do in the future. So we're back where we started despite your protestations that I'm misinterpreting you.
And this also from your link:
Quote:
Enlil said: A person's actions, while important, are not nearly as important as his/her intent.
This is absurd. Attacking someone and locking them in a treatment cage for something they MIGHT do is Draconian and Orwellian both.
Quote:
Enlil said: If a person has reached the point where their brain is so fucked up that antisocial behavior is inevitable
No one can say what future behavior is inevitable and merits being forcibly treating someone. Again, you can't have it both ways and we're back where we started. Nothing you've said refutes my assertion that in your system all addicts would be attacked at gunpoint if necessary and forced into treatment. All addicts meet your qualifications for meriting force. Namely, the loss of volitional control over their drug use.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19285832 - 12/16/13 08:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Even after being confronted with solid proof of the falsity of one of your lies, you're unable to do the right thing and acknowledge that you've misrepresented my position and apologize for it.
You may continue the discussion with yourself as you've proven yourself incapable of anything resembling an intellectually honest debate.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19285870 - 12/16/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Yep.
No, he isn't
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19285919 - 12/16/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Even after being confronted with solid proof of the falsity of one of your lies
Lies? You make contradicting statements, refuse to answer questions intended to resolve those contradictions, then then call me a liar for misunderstanding you? Really?
Look Enlil, why don't you just answer my simple, direct questions so I might understand what you actually mean and I'll apologize if I misunderstood you. You have made contradicting statements and I can only go by what you write and the answers to my direct questions, not what you expect me to read in your mind.
Let's start with this one: How would you force someone into drug treatment without using police force if they absolutely refuse to go and are prepared to defend themselves with a weapon if necessary. It's not a hard question. Can I have an answer or are you going to call me a liar and refuse to answer again?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19286004 - 12/16/13 09:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've made myself clear in this thread several times. Here are the false and defamatory statements that you've made about me in this thread alone:
Quote:
Diploid said: But you do support the abducting of peaceful drug users, at gunpoint by thugs with badges if necessary, to compel them into residential drug treatment even if they have harmed no one.
Quote:
Diploid said: you are even on the record in favor of forced drug treatment of addicts to nicotine and alcohol.
Quote:
Diploid said: you have steadfastly insisted that ANY addiction constitutes a loss of free will and that justifies forcible drug treatment.
Quote:
Diploid said: You have said you would lock up and forcibly treat [paraphrasing] "anyone addicted to a substance, including nicotine and alcohol".
None of these statements by you are true, and ALL of them are intentional attempts to impugn my character by misrepresenting things I have said. I can't imagine why you'd expect me to answer any question or engage in any discussion with someone who resorts to such tactics.
Frankly, the fact that you seek to attack my character instead of my argument is evidence enough that you're not worth my time. The fact that you're willing to lie to do so is what makes you reprehensible and deserving of the rating I gave you.
What you have done in this thread is no different than if I said, "your opinion is invalid because you touch little boys." That's what you're doing here, only with a different subject matter. When you grow the fuck up, and frankly, man the fuck up and admit that you've repeatedly lied in this thread, maybe things will be different. Until then, you're nothing but another bullshit artist online that will say anything to feel like he "won" and truth be damned.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19286057 - 12/16/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I can't imagine why you'd expect me to answer any question
Because I perceive you saying one thing and you claim to be saying something else. I can't imagine any other way to clear that up other than to ask you questions and you answering them.
you seek to attack my character
I'm seeking to ask you a question to clarify how I can so misunderstand you as to think you advocate violent abduction and forced treatment of drug users when you claim not to.
For the 100th time: How would you force someone into drug treatment without using police force if they absolutely refuse to go and are prepared to defend themselves with a weapon if necessary.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19286067 - 12/16/13 09:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You made 4 statements. They weren't questions....they were statements. They weren't meant to clarify. They were meant to defame.
I've given you every opportunity to do the right thing and retract your false statements. It's clear that you're not going to do that, so our discussion ends here.
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Diploid
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19286090 - 12/16/13 09:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've given you every opportunity to do the right thing and retract your false statements.
I'll happily do that if your answer to my questions merit it. Your refusal to answer is bizarre.
Quote:
How would you force someone into drug treatment without using police force if they absolutely refuse to go and are prepared to defend themselves with a weapon if necessary.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19286970 - 12/17/13 02:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Yep.
No, he isn't
Well someone is and it isn't me. That works ok.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19286980 - 12/17/13 03:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: You made 4 statements. They weren't questions....they were statements. They weren't meant to clarify. They were meant to defame.
I've given you every opportunity to do the right thing and retract your false statements. It's clear that you're not going to do that, so our discussion ends here.
Recently you told me that some people cannot admit when they might be wrong. I think this is a case of you doing that. I see no reason you can't answer Diploids question other than a refusal to see that you don't have a reasonable response. Not a surprise I guess but I guess I am a little. Live and learn.
Plus you've said "our discussion ends here" (or something similar) several times which is comical. And finally one does not need an apology if they are right. Asking for an apology before one responds is nothing more than a diversionary tactic.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19287152 - 12/17/13 04:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I could answer his question. I'm not going to tolerate having someone attack my character with lies. I'm certainly not going to dance like a monkey to his tune to coax him to retract his lies. Fuck that.
If anyone else asked the same questions, I'd answer in a heartbeat.
Look at it this way. He has, on at least 4 occasions in this thread, accused me of advocating a position that I have never advocated. He has accused me of saying things that I have never said. These aren't simple straw man arguments either. These are rhetorically loaded statements intended to paint me as some kind of zealot...which I am far from being.
As far as your "admit when they are wrong" argument, think about that. His question refers to the possibility of abducting someone by force without deadly force. Anyone with half a brain, if they used if for longer than 30 seconds, could figure out how to abduct someone without use of deadly force, regardless of how well that someone chose to arm/barricade himself/herself. It would be super easy to answer his question, actually. No one can be vigilant 24/7. Shit, anyone who's ever watched "dog, the bounty hunter" could probably answer that question.
My refusal to continue with that discussion is based solely on the disrespect he has shown me in this thread by repeatedly lying about me. I won't tolerate it, and I won't encourage it by complying with his requests...however simple they may be. I'm not concerned about winning or losing a debate. I am concerned with having my reputation and character besmirched with lies. I'm more than willing to let him, you, and everyone else think I've given up in order to stand my ground on the issue of my character.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287225 - 12/17/13 05:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: If anyone else asked the same questions, I'd answer in a heartbeat.
I'd like to know...
How would you force someone into drug treatment without using police force if they absolutely refuse to go and are prepared to defend themselves with a weapon if necessary?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287255 - 12/17/13 05:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm glad you asked. I don't know how you define "police force" for purposes of your question, but since this was originally about deadly force, I'm going to assume you mean without using any deadly force or threat thereof.
Humans can't be ready all day, every day. People have to sleep. People have to leave their houses. A crew of 10 people could easily watch a person and wait for a moment when they are not ready and surprise grab that person. He's only got two arms to reach for a weapon, so two people could easily restrain those long enough for a third to disarm the guy.
Plus, let's not forget that we're talking about abducting a person who is so fucked up that he is unable to think rationally...That's also going to give the abductors a huge advantage.
Simply put, it would be just a matter of choice. The policy would be simple: Do not use/carry deadly force during the operation. That policy would override everything else. If it means waiting a few extra days, weeks, or even months to get the opportunity, then that's what it means.
Certainly, using deadly force would be cheaper and easier...but as I've already said, the use of deadly force against someone you're supposed to be helping is absolutely inappropriate. If my way costs more, then that's just the price of doing business in a moral way. Since we're talking about the most extreme of cases, the cost would still be far less than our current "war on drugs".
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Sleepwalker
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287288 - 12/17/13 05:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: unable to think rationally
How do you define or decide when a person has reached this point?
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287298 - 12/17/13 05:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have to say, your way doesn't seem very moral.
Moral to me would be not using force to make someone go where they do not wish to go when they have a substance abuse problem. I have no problem locking up someone who is a threat to others, but to force someone into rehab who does not wish to go is abhorrent.
And while I saw where you say:
Quote:
I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who can responsibly manage their addiction be forced into treatment. Certain addicts reach a point where they have completely lost the ability to rationally control their behavior. These are the people that need treatment...mandatory if necessary. If a person has reached the point where their brain is so fucked up that antisocial behavior is inevitable, I feel it's much cheaper to treat them than keep incarcerating them.
I think though that without knowing just how you define "antisocial behavior" we will not be fully in agreement.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Phred
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287304 - 12/17/13 06:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:Humans can't be ready all day, every day. People have to sleep. People have to leave their houses. A crew of 10 people could easily watch a person and wait for a moment when they are not ready and surprise grab that person. He's only got two arms to reach for a weapon, so two people could easily restrain those long enough for a third to disarm the guy.
A siege, in other words. Starve him out.
If what you say is true, what moral reason would there be for not applying this protocol to all arrests of individuals accused of non-violent crimes? Someone who refused to pay his taxes, for example. Or someone who missed his last three court appearances.
As an aside, how effective do you think this method would be in capturing say, a biker holed up in his clubhouse with a few of his buddies?
Phred
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Phred]
#19287357 - 12/17/13 06:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: I have to say, your way doesn't seem very moral.
Moral to me would be not using force to make someone go where they do not wish to go when they have a substance abuse problem. I have no problem locking up someone who is a threat to others, but to force someone into rehab who does not wish to go is abhorrent.
Again, I'm not talking about people with just "a substance abuse problem." I'm talking about those extreme cases of addiction where the person is unable to rationally make decisions for his/her own well being. I'm talking about people who have hit the point where they are so delusional that they're equivalent to people with serious schizophrenia.
In such cases, leaving a person alone to destroy themselves is immoral. If someone rationally chooses to kill himself, I'm fine with that. If someone rationally chooses to kill himself with heroin, I'm fine with that. I'm not talking about those people, though. I'm talking about those people who have negligently reached a point in their addiction that they are killing themselves and have little or no control over it. In those cases, I'd err on the side of treating that person first. If, after treatment, they still want to kill themselves, so be it.
Quote:
Phred said: A siege, in other words. Starve him out.
If what you say is true, what moral reason would there be for not applying this protocol to all arrests of individuals accused of non-violent crimes?Someone who refused to pay his taxes, for example. Or someone who missed his last three court appearances.
I can't think of any moral reason not to. I can think of a few practical ones, but I basically agree with you that this method should probably be used for other crimes, too. It would almost certainly increase the cost of law enforcement, but we wouldn't have people shot and killed needlessly.
Your question does bring up an interesting point, though. You seem to be equating my hypothetical forced treatment abduction with law enforcement. They are unrelated, though. The purpose of the forced treatment would NOT be to punish or enforce any laws. It would be to help/protect those who cannot help/protect themselves. It would be a mission of compassion.
Quote:
As an aside, how effective do you think this method would be in capturing say, a biker holed up in his clubhouse with a few of his buddies?
Obviously, anyone with enough resources and/or enablers could delay the process indefinitely, and it is what it is. The goal is to help people who are incapable of helping themselves. That goal would never be served by escalating the situation to the point of deadly force. Society can only do so much.
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Sleepwalker said: How do you define or decide when a person has reached this point?
Defining it is easy. Determining if a person has reached that point is far more difficult, and it's definitely not my expertise. I'm confident that a system could be put in place, however, to evaluate people that appear to be at/near this point. No system, of course, will be perfect, and it would have to strike a balance between serving the goals of helping those that need help and protecting the privacy and autonomy of those who are simply choosing to use a substance.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287405 - 12/17/13 07:02 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
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luvdemshrooms said: I have to say, your way doesn't seem very moral.
Moral to me would be not using force to make someone go where they do not wish to go when they have a substance abuse problem. I have no problem locking up someone who is a threat to others, but to force someone into rehab who does not wish to go is abhorrent.
Again, I'm not talking about people with just "a substance abuse problem." I'm talking about those extreme cases of addiction where the person is unable to rationally make decisions for his/her own well being. I'm talking about people who have hit the point where they are so delusional that they're equivalent to people with serious schizophrenia.
In such cases, leaving a person alone to destroy themselves is immoral. If someone rationally chooses to kill himself, I'm fine with that. If someone rationally chooses to kill himself with heroin, I'm fine with that. I'm not talking about those people, though. I'm talking about those people who have negligently reached a point in their addiction that they are killing themselves and have little or no control over it. In those cases, I'd err on the side of treating that person first. If, after treatment, they still want to kill themselves, so be it.
Then we'll have to disagree. I don't believe in forcing others to do things even if it's in their own best interests.
Barring criminal behavior, there is no adequate justification for forcing people into treatment that they do not want.
If indeed people "have negligently reached a point in their addiction that they are killing themselves and have little or no control over it", so be it. It was their choice to make.
Who are you going to impose your will on next? Those who overeat? Those who neglect medical issues? Those who have smoked tobacco until they have their voice box removed and smoke through their blowhole?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287408 - 12/17/13 07:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Barring criminal behavior, there is no adequate justification for forcing people into treatment that they do not want.
So you are against treating unconscious people found at the scene of a car accident who have not yet consented to treatment?
Are you against parents forcing treatment on a child with a broken leg when the child doesn't consent?
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287421 - 12/17/13 07:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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An unconscious person has no ability to consent (or not) to anything.
The child is a minor.
Neither is the same thing as forcing an addict into treatment they do not want.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287432 - 12/17/13 07:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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In some cases, they are the same thing. A child can't consent because he is incompetent to make rational decisions about his health. An unconscious person suffers from the same problem. An adult with a mental impairment could also be in the same situation. Competency is necessary to give consent...I'm sure you'd agree with that.
My argument is that there are extreme cases of addiction wherein a person becomes incompetent much like a child, a mentally handicapped adult, or a severely mentally ill adult. In those cases, the afflicted can't give consent because they're not competent to do so. In such cases, as a society, we should assume that they would have given consent if they were competent...just like we assume that the unconscious person in the wrecked car would have given consent.
If a person wants to get addicted and go off the deep end, I've no problem with that, as long as that decision was made when they were competent to do so.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287462 - 12/17/13 07:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You're not going to be able to convince me that a person who chose to do drugs and did them to the point they are addicted, is the same as an accident victim or a minor. Period.
An accident victim didn't choose to be an accident victim.
Society has deemed minors incompetent to make their own decisions.
You're talking about putting a person who has chosen a particular behavior into treatment for making a choice you deem harmful.
The accident victim you describe can't give consent. Society doesn't value a minors consent. An adult who chooses to decline treatment should have his wishes respected, whether for addiction or medical procedures.
I don't want a nanny state deciding my behavior (as it affects me) needs treatment.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287467 - 12/17/13 07:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Okay, so if an extreme sports athlete, who willingly put himself in danger, was injured to the point that his brain didn't function properly, he'd be shit out of luck because he chose the dangerous sport? He can't give consent, so we just let him die?
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287477 - 12/17/13 07:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No. In your hypothetical he was injured in an accident and as you put it "can't give consent".
However, if he was able to deny decline consent, he should be left alone. Just like the addict.
Edit: Didn't use the word I wanted.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287484 - 12/17/13 07:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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An addict who has reached the point I'm talking about can't give or decline consent just like a child or retard can't give or decline consent. You may not think that such people exist, but they most certainly do.
There is really no difference between the two situations, either. The athlete didn't jump off the cliff on a bike for the purpose of injuring himself just like the addict didn't shoot heroin for the purpose of rendering himself incompetent. Neither intended the result, but both are now rendered incompetent to give or decline consent. You'd treat one and not the other despite both being currently incapable of giving or decliing consent.
A 5 year old who says, "I don't want to go to the doctor" is ignored because he is incompetent to make that decision for himself. In extreme cases, an addict can be equally incompetent to make decisions.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287511 - 12/17/13 08:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I had an addiction. A rather serious one. I know such people exist.
That doesn't matter. They made a choice to do drugs. If they decline treatment (even one you deem to be for their own good), you don't treat them.
Quote:
You'd treat one and not the other despite both being currently incapable of giving or decliing consent.
Absolutely. One made a choice, the other was in an accident. I wouldn't treat the accident victim either if he came to long enough to say no even if he had a head injury.
I don't want your wishes/desires/compassion to over-ride my choices. Your desire to "help" me should never over-ride my desire to not be helped.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287532 - 12/17/13 08:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
I wouldn't treat the accident victim either if he came to long enough to say no even if he had a head injury.
I'd agree with this, and I'd apply this to the addict as well. Once he was detoxed enough to make a rational decision, if he chose to discontinue treatment, I'd have him sign a statement declining further treatment and leave him to his self-destruction.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287538 - 12/17/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Simply put, it would be just a matter of choice. The policy would be simple: Do not use/carry deadly force during the operation. That policy would override everything else. If it means waiting a few extra days, weeks, or even months to get the opportunity, then that's what it means.
What alternate world would this happen in? I'm talking about this real world we live in now. No police force is going to wait around 10 days or months for a chance at an addict when they need to be policing the streets. And how many would want to do it without a weapon in case something went terribly wrong? This is a truly bizarre position to take imo unless we are just playing "I wish".
btw I wouldn't worry so much about your fine character being besmirched on a druggie forum. I've never seen anyone get so self righteous on such a unimportant issue before. 
As for me I think you're a cool dood most of the time.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287541 - 12/17/13 08:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
I wouldn't treat the accident victim either if he came to long enough to say no even if he had a head injury.
I'd agree with this, and I'd apply this to the addict as well. Once he was detoxed enough to make a rational decision, if he chose to discontinue treatment, I'd have him sign a statement declining further treatment and leave him to his self-destruction.
Nope. You forced the addict into detox.
Therein lies the difference. You'd force someone to be treated. I would not.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19287561 - 12/17/13 08:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I never said it would be a police force. It would have nothing to do with law enforcement. If you think it's not possible, then you haven't been out much. People, including violent fugitives, are apprehended every single day in this country by people who are not armed with deadly weapons.
As I said before, the goal is to help people who are incapable of helping themselves. This isn't about law enforcement.
And if you think that not tolerating lies about me is "self-righteous", I suggest you look up the term.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287566 - 12/17/13 08:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: Nope. You forced the addict into detox.
Therein lies the difference. You'd force someone to be treated. I would not.
And we've come to the point of mutual understanding and disagreement. Hooray for us.
Except that I wouldn't necessarily force someone to be treated. I wouldn't be morally opposed to it if it were proven necessary and effective. We haven't really discussed the "effective" part.
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Edited by Enlil (12/17/13 08:30 AM)
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287606 - 12/17/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: And we've come to the point of mutual understanding and disagreement. Hooray for us.
Yes. Hooray. I'd not force treatment (even in the addicts interest), you would.
Quote:
Except that I wouldn't necessarily force someone to be treated. I wouldn't be morally opposed to it if it were proven necessary and effective. We haven't really discussed the "effective" part.
Say what? Forcing someone to be treated is what you've been advocating all along.
Quote:
I'm talking about using forced treatment of an illness in the most extreme of cases....
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287615 - 12/17/13 08:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Certainly, forced treatment is what I've been talking about. That doesn't mean I would do it. I talk about many things I wouldn't do.
My point is that I wouldn't be morally opposed to it if it were proven effective and necessary. Even so, that doesn't necessarily make it the best, or even a good, idea. It just makes it morally permissible in my book
There may very well be other better solutions out there that would make forced treatment the less-desirable choice. I don't know. I'm not even convinced that forced treatment is effective enough to make it a viable option. There is data to suggest that it can be effective, but there are also plenty of experts who claim that it is almost never effective. I'm certainly not an expert, so I can't make a claim one way or another.
...hence why I'd need it to be proven effective before I could ever sign off on it morally, and then only in the extreme cases where a person has reached the point where he/she can no longer rationally make decisions about his/her health.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287634 - 12/17/13 08:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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And so we return to you would force someone to do something and I would not.
The better solution you speak of is to help those that wish it and to leave those who decline your help alone.
There is nothing moral about forcing your will onto addicts.
No means (or at least it should) no.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287653 - 12/17/13 08:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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And back to the point of mutual understanding and disagreement. Whew!
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287749 - 12/17/13 09:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: I never said it would be a police force. It would have nothing to do with law enforcement. If you think it's not possible, then you haven't been out much. People, including violent fugitives, are apprehended every single day in this country by people who are not armed with deadly weapons.
As I said before, the goal is to help people who are incapable of helping themselves. This isn't about law enforcement.
And if you think that not tolerating lies about me is "self-righteous", I suggest you look up the term.
I don't get out much it's true but I do know these things cost money and spending months to bring in one addict might be a tad prohibitive.
I've just decided that someone is incapable of helping themselves. I don't think they should have a say in the matter. (Sounds like the missionaries and we know how that turned out.)
And you are tolerating lies or truths by just continuing to post here and respond. Really, how have you not tolerated anything. Of course I can remember back in my early days here demanding an apology or two. That turned out real well.
But my honor or personal integrity has nothing to do with what others say or don't say about me. Let em have at me if it helps them out. Nothing is going to change. My debate will stand or fall on it's own merit rather than me demanding others say this or that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19287768 - 12/17/13 09:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sure it would cost a lot of money per apprehension, but there would be so few apprehensions that it would still be far cheaper than the current system. In addition, the vast majority of people apprehended for forced treatment would not take months or even weeks.
"tolerate" can have many meanings I suppose, but when the guy with the "m" next to his name chooses to be a reprehensible liar and assassinate my character, I've very little recourse. I'm not going to let him stop me from discussing the issues with the rest of you, however. That would be giving him even more undeserved power than he already has. On the other hand, I'm certainly not going to acquiesce to his arbitrary conditions, either.
I don't expect him to apologize, retract his statements, or even acknowledge that he was wrong. I expect him to continue in his typical self-righteous pattern of declaring what I think, feel, believe, and advocate for without regard to truth, accuracy, or potential damage to my reputation.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287806 - 12/17/13 09:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well I can see you think you are right or if you don't you aren't going to budge.
For myself I think that it sounds nice in some ways due to the fact that we care (a few of us) about the suffering of these individuals but it would be just too dangerous to implement and not have it become abused due to the ill intent of people who need power over others for whatever reason. That's my story and for now I'm stickin to it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19287821 - 12/17/13 09:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree with you about the abuse potential. This is why I have repeatedly said that I'd only be okay with it morally if it were proven necessary. To me, this means that there would have to be many checks and balances in place to reduce the risk of abuse of the system.
Of course no system is perfect, but I'm sure that the system could be accurate enough to reduce the risk of abuse/mistake to a very low point.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287847 - 12/17/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's an interesting question, though. What error rate is acceptable? 1%? Would it be acceptable to treat 99 people that actually wanted treatment but were incapable of consenting if it meant that 1 person went through a few weeks of detox that shouldn't have? I think I'd be okay with that ratio if we're talking about saving that many lives.
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19287863 - 12/17/13 10:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: For myself I think that it sounds nice in some ways due to the fact that we care (a few of us) about the suffering of these individuals...
You aren't actually equating those who think others should not be forcibly treated with not caring?
Really?
Because it seems to me that those suggesting some be treated against their wishes are the ones who don't care. Your desire to help others does not over-ride their desire to be left alone.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287872 - 12/17/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You're still missing the point, though. "desire to be left alone" may not be genuine. We're talking about people who are so fucked up that they don't have any rational desires at all. Really, we're talking about people who, if we could go back in time and ask them, would say, "if I ever get that fucked up, please drag my ass into a rehab".
They just can't say that any longer because they've become a slave to the chemical.
I wonder what you would do if a brother, sister, son, daughter, or other loved one got to a place where they were killing themselves in front of you. If you could slip a magic pill in their coffee that would suddenly cure the addiction...would you do it?
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287885 - 12/17/13 10:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No. I respect my family members far too much to force them to do anything.
I've missed no point. I simply disagree with the "point" you are failing at making. Telling me I'm "missing the point" is rather foolish. I fully understand you desire to help others. That desire does not over-ride another persons wishes.
If a loved one made their wishes known, I'd respect it even if I disagreed. It is not for me to decide for them or to disregard their wishes.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287890 - 12/17/13 10:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So you don't believe that a person can become addicted to the point where they don't know what their wishes are?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287898 - 12/17/13 10:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't care how addicted they are. My wishes do not supersede those of the individual in question. My desire to help others does not include my forcing my wishes upon them.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287903 - 12/17/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's not the question. Do you believe that a person can get so afflicted with addiction that they are no longer able to even determine what their wishes are?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287910 - 12/17/13 10:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Could be. Doesn't matter. The person says no, it's a no.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287917 - 12/17/13 10:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So, for you, it's all about the verbal expression. So if someone falls prey to a rare disease that literally forces them to refuse treatment, you'd take that refusal at face value?
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287934 - 12/17/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yup.
They say no, I respect the no.
And it doesn't have to be verbal. Could be in writing, could be an email or voice mail, could be a shaking of the head, could be the tears as you're restraining them.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287937 - 12/17/13 10:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Okay, so for you, consent doesn't have to be real...it just needs to be provable.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19287944 - 12/17/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
Icelander said: For myself I think that it sounds nice in some ways due to the fact that we care (a few of us) about the suffering of these individuals...
You aren't actually equating those who think others should not be forcibly treated with not caring?
Really?
Because it seems to me that those suggesting some be treated against their wishes are the ones who don't care. Your desire to help others does not over-ride their desire to be left alone.
No I'm not saying that. I'm saying that people who may advocate for forcing others at times may have good intentions. Like you I'm not one of them. My intention is to let them do their best and if they need it ask for help. It's what I would and do want for myself.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19287962 - 12/17/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Okay, so for you, consent doesn't have to be real...it just needs to be provable.
The person in question says no, it's a no. That could be verbal. It could come in other forms.
It's not that hard to grasp my stance.
No means no. No. Means. No. No means no. No means no.
There are no circumstances under which I would force those who decline treatment to accept such treatment. Their wishes outweigh my desire.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19287971 - 12/17/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
Icelander said: For myself I think that it sounds nice in some ways due to the fact that we care (a few of us) about the suffering of these individuals...
You aren't actually equating those who think others should not be forcibly treated with not caring?
Really?
Because it seems to me that those suggesting some be treated against their wishes are the ones who don't care. Your desire to help others does not over-ride their desire to be left alone.
No I'm not saying that. I'm saying that people who may advocate for forcing others at times may have good intentions. Like you I'm not one of them. My intention is to let them do their best and if they need it ask for help. It's what I would and do want for myself.
OK. I glad we agree.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19288016 - 12/17/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No only means no when the person intends to say no. If, however, the person is forced to say no by a disease, then he/she might actually mean yes.
Of course, to you it means no either way.
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Icelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288096 - 12/17/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That would be a tough call to determine when a person was exercising free will. I wouldn't want anyone making that call on my life. Of course many want to make the call on all sorts of things pertaining to my life. We have so few real freedoms left it seems and the right to my own life and body, imo shouldn't ever be in the hands of some outside agency no matter what their intentions. I might as well just then conceed myself fully to the majority collective and be done with it.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288106 - 12/17/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So if someone falls prey to a rare disease that literally forces them to refuse treatment, you'd take that refusal at face value?
First, since you've now answered my question and made it clear that I misunderstood you, I take back my assertion that you would force every and all drug users into treatment. Instead you would force into treatment those you deem to be "far gone", though I don't know how you would determine what that arbitrary line means or when someone has crossed it. For the record, I completely disagree with you that forcing treatment on anyone who says no is moral or ethical regardless of anyone's estimation of the addicts mental capacity.
I also take back my assertion that when you would force treatment on someone you deem "far gone", it would be with a gun. Though I must tell you that your idea of putting someone under siege without weapons until they give in is silly on its face and completely impractical. If I were put under such a siege, when I eventually had to come out, it would be with with guns and grenades and with suicide explosives strapped to my chest. And having seen that my future holds only pain and torment at the hands of do-gooders bent on saving me, I would be fully prepared to detonate when they rush me so I can help society on my way out by taking as many assholes who think they're my nanny with me as I could. I'm pretty sure many other Americans similarly trapped would respond the same way.
As I've already pointed out, I think your kind of thinking that forcing your wishes on people who don't want it and who are otherwise peaceful is one of the motivators breeding domestic terrorism when people are pinned against the wall by the endless stream of intrusive laws regulating private behavior.
And finally, we've already seen what can happen when absolutely determined people who are prepared to die for their freedom are put under siege. See the Waco Siege, the MOVE Siege, and others in recent history.
It's idiotic to risk the death of a bunch of people to save one person who doesn't want the help and isn't hurting anyone.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288115 - 12/17/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No only means no when the person intends to say no.
This is beyond retarded. The next time a woman says no, I'm going to assume she means yes and fuck her anyway. I mean who could possibly say no to a stud like me. Duh.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288138 - 12/17/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: No only means no when the person intends to say no. If, however, the person is forced to say no by a disease, then he/she might actually mean yes.
Of course, to you it means no either way.
It's not for me to decide what someone "actually" means,
It is up to me to respect their wishes and not force my desires onto them.
Offering my help is moral. Forcing it upon those who do not wish it is immoral.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19288170 - 12/17/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It appears that the core of our disagreement is a matter of form instead of function. You accept the word "no" regardless of whether or not in indicates a freely made decision. I am not so black and white about it. If someone threatens someone to make them refuse treatment, that's not a true expression of their free will. There are myriad ways to make someone say "no" without them actually meaning it.
I look to the competence of the person. Sure, for the most part, people who say no are doing so because they are expressing their actual wishes in the matter. That is, of course, the normal way that it should be interpreted...
...But I haven't been talking about anything "normal" in this thread at all. I have been talking about those rare and exceptional cases where a person is compelled by their illness to resist any and all attempts to stop using a drug...and compelled to the point where their own volition cannot override that compulsion, regardless of how much that person might actually want to be free of their addiction.
In those cases, by respecting the "no", you're doing exactly the opposite of what that person wants. THAT is immoral.
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19288181 - 12/17/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Initiating force is always immoral under any circumstances unless in self defense.
I wouldn't expect socialist s to understand this though.
maybe we should sieze Enlil and send him to "ethics treatment" in church because some of us have deemed him unable to determine right from wrong?
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
#19288185 - 12/17/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: Initiating force is always immoral under any circumstances unless in self defense.
Lol...so closing a door is wrong unless it's in self defense? Lifting a glass of water to my mouth is wrong?
You really need to work on this theory a bit more before you present it in a public post.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
#19288187 - 12/17/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You nor anyone is smart or capable enough to make that judgement enlil.
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288194 - 12/17/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Shins said: Initiating force is always immoral under any circumstances unless in self defense.
Lol...so closing a door is wrong unless it's in self defense? Lifting a glass of water to my mouth is wrong?
You really need to work on this theory a bit more before you present it in a public post.
You don't need to play dumb man, you do a good enough job of acting dumb normally.
you know exactly what I mean; initiate force on another person.
I don't know why you play these stupid games, troll.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288195 - 12/17/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have been talking about those rare and exceptional cases where a person is compelled by their illness to resist any and all attempts to stop using a drug...and compelled to the point where their own volition cannot override that compulsion, regardless of how much that person might actually want to be free of their addiction.
Unless you have a crystal ball or some privileged information about the internal state of the consciousness you would foist treatment on, you have no way of knowing this. You can't assume someone actually wants treatment when they clearly say they don't.
So where does that leave us? Default to forced treating everyone who says NO on the off chance that an occasional NO actually means yes? Or default to respecting the clearly stated wishes of those who say NO and accept that there may be an occasional YES in the crowd who wants treatment but says NO and doesn't get it.
C'mon man. I know you're smarter than this. Why can't you simply admit that your proposal is silly.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Shins
Fun guy



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Posts: 16,337
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19288203 - 12/17/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Socialists all think they are so smart that they can tell you what's best for you and then apply it by force whether you agree or not.
sick of that shit.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
#19288213 - 12/17/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: You nor anyone is smart or capable enough to make that judgement enlil.
I don't think so. There is a pretty solid foundation for it currently in use in civil commitment/guardianship proceedings. A system is already in place where people are evaluated to determine whether they are competent to handle their affairs and make decisions for themselves. It's not perfect, of course, but it certainly is good enough to use as a starting point.
Assuming, of course, that forced treatment is proven effective enough to be a viable option, which is still an unknown at this point.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288217 - 12/17/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: In those cases, by respecting the "no", you're doing exactly the opposite of what that person wants. THAT is immoral.
I'm respecting the wish conveyed. Doing as I wish as opposed to what the individual wants/conveys/grunts/writes is the immoral act.
My wishes do not supersede others. I am not omnipotent. Neither I nor anyone else should have the power to over-ride their wishes.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288225 - 12/17/13 11:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Of course you think you're smart enough to tell people what's best for them
you're a smartass and a socialist after all.
I think you need forced ethics treatment. The government should sends goons to take you to a catholic boarding house, how does that sound to you?
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Enlil
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
#19288228 - 12/17/13 12:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why would it matter how it sounds to me? If I need forced ethics treatment, my opinion doesn't much matter, does it?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
#19288242 - 12/17/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: Of course you think you're smart enough to tell people what's best for them
you're a smartass and a socialist after all.
I think you need forced ethics treatment. The government should sends goons to take you to a catholic boarding house, how does that sound to you?
What's with the name calling? Grow up a bit and come back.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288244 - 12/17/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Why would it matter how it sounds to me? If I need forced ethics treatment, my opinion doesn't much matter, does it?
Exactly. /thread
it wouldn't matter what you thought anyways because another person is employing goons to take you away anyways.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288254 - 12/17/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There is a pretty solid foundation for it currently in use in civil commitment/guardianship proceedings.
And that system works because it is applied to people who are hurting others or interfering with the peaceful functioning of society. It doesn't go and accost "crazy people" who are otherwise minding their own business and bothering no one.
Your proposal is to proactively attack drug users deemed "far gone" even if they are bothering no one. If some drug user is causing problems, disturbing neighbors, stealing, vandalizing or a million things that are ALREADY against the law, then sure, lock them up and treat them involuntarily if necessary.
But attacking and treating a drug user who bothers no one no matter how "far gone" you or anyone else thinks they are is unethical and immoral, and it is trivial to so demonstrate to anyone with a neutral, objective view.
I can see you are so emotionally invested in this that you will not admit you are wrong even when it's obvious.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19288268 - 12/17/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Shins said: Of course you think you're smart enough to tell people what's best for them
you're a smartass and a socialist after all.
I think you need forced ethics treatment. The government should sends goons to take you to a catholic boarding house, how does that sound to you?
What's with the name calling? Grow up a bit and come back.
I didn't say anything that isn't true.
Grown ups speak truthfully without censorship.
ironically you'd rather keep it PG13
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
#19288278 - 12/17/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Actually, you did say something that wasn't true. I can't hold it against you, though, because you've been honesty-challenged for as long as I've seen you post.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins]
#19288279 - 12/17/13 12:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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you guys seem shocked. peeps with money, have been buying justice for eternity.
if im loose, ya know its a fact in stone.
--------------------
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: anne halonium]
#19288292 - 12/17/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I see you've hit triple digits of people ignoring you. I'm jealous.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288298 - 12/17/13 12:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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i wont be happy enil, till your their leader. im counting on you most of all.
its easy to get 100. anyone who tells the truth a few times, and calls out fantasy growers, can exceed me, and help the community at the same time.
--------------------
Edited by anne halonium (12/17/13 12:16 PM)
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288306 - 12/17/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Actually, you did say something that wasn't true. I can't hold it against you, though, because you've been honesty-challenged for as long as I've seen you post.
Sorry I made a judgement call and it superceeds yours.
prepare to be taken away.
your opinion is irrelevant because I am able to employ more goons than you with lawful immunity
If I've been anything my whole life its honest. Your misinterpretation just shows how far gone you are.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: anne halonium]
#19288314 - 12/17/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You're going to be unhappy a long, long time if your happiness depends on me using the ignore function.
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288321 - 12/17/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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never unhappy with rounding up ostrich. its a badge of pride to piss off total fools.
its a win / win......... sometimes, ya gotta buy your way past it. ( when they splatter back at ya)
im still surprised at this thread. buy justice is old old news. i didnt think anyone really cared.
--------------------
Edited by anne halonium (12/17/13 12:24 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: anne halonium] 1
#19288347 - 12/17/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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In any case, you've done a pretty good job of it so far. I am interested in seeing how many you'll build up before you're finally permabanned. I'm confident your record will stand for a long time, though.
Of course, the more who have you ignored, the less likely you are to be banned because there are less people seeing your nonsense so less people to report you for being a troll.
Anyway, not to derail this derailed thread, but kudos on your troll success. Keep up the good work, and I'm rooting for 200 before the perma.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288352 - 12/17/13 12:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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of course my record will stand. few are brave enough to attack filth with zeal.
anyone can ban annie. now ban annies teks...........
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Edited by anne halonium (12/17/13 12:26 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: anne halonium]
#19288452 - 12/17/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I haven't grown in the better part of a decade, but I can assure you this: When you're gone, your tek will be forgotten soon thereafter.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19288467 - 12/17/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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doubtful.........


its news to me, ya can grow anything. i dont thnik anyone remembers you already.
your greatest claim to fame, is trifling me. glad to boost ya. all your posts havent done much for ya it seems.
if there was REAL justice, we could bribe the mods here to ban you.
--------------------
Edited by anne halonium (12/17/13 01:00 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: anne halonium]
#19288576 - 12/17/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nah, my greatest claim to fame is staring in a college play. It's all been downhill from there, bro.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Shins] 1
#19288968 - 12/17/13 02:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Shins said: Of course you think you're smart enough to tell people what's best for them
you're a smartass and a socialist after all.
I think you need forced ethics treatment. The government should sends goons to take you to a catholic boarding house, how does that sound to you?
What's with the name calling? Grow up a bit and come back.
I didn't say anything that isn't true.
Grown ups speak truthfully without censorship.
ironically you'd rather keep it PG13
Since when do you lay claim to being a grownup?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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sytar
Radiant



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Posts: 381
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19289124 - 12/17/13 03:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I feel bad for you Enlil. You're arguing against fundamentalists. Doesn't matter how logical and artful your arguments are, they're not going anywhere.
-------------------- I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: sytar]
#19289141 - 12/17/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm used to that here. Certain topics are seen as very black and white by the majority of the people on this site. Occasionally, someone will come along and actually read what I post instead of just reading my posts as being a sweeping indictment of their lifestyle.
One can only plug along, though.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: sytar]
#19289146 - 12/17/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Really? Fundamentalists?
Believing someone should not be forced to accept treatment they don't want makes one a fundamentalist?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: sytar]
#19289252 - 12/17/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sytar said: I feel bad for you Enlil. You're arguing against fundamentalists. Doesn't matter how logical and artful your arguments are, they're not going anywhere.
You're fos. I'm hardly a fundamentalist. In fact most of the time I think Enlil is spot on in his posts.
FOS you are.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19289346 - 12/17/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I gotta quit working. I can't go through this whole catfight now
--------------------
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19289471 - 12/17/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Working is overrated.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19289559 - 12/17/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I gotta quit working. I can't go through this whole catfight now
Hell you can retire anytime you want. You might have to make some small spending adjustments but you're way loaded compared to me. It all depends on what you think is important in life. I don't see you ever retiring though. You have it too good. You post on the shroomery all day long so you obviously don't have to do much now for your bucks and you have a rich successful ol lady. The kids are out of the house. I don't know how you do it but nice job.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19289582 - 12/17/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Working is overrated.
Everything is overrated. My friend used to say "survival is overrated". The older I get the more pain I have the less I can do that is fun the more I agree with him.
Kratom makes things a lot better but the cost is an addiction. But frankly at my age it's worth it. It will likely shorten my time here but the days I have are better days so it's worth it.
Just don't hire anyone go drag me into rehab. Pretty please.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19289593 - 12/17/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ignore the white vans with tinted windows.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19289629 - 12/17/13 05:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Believe it or not there is one parked in my neighbors driveway.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19289985 - 12/17/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Working is overrated.
A necessary nuisance for most
--------------------
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
#19298415 - 12/19/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19298738 - 12/19/13 04:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Looks like the parents have had run-ins with the law too. I hope the civil suits ruin those people.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19298769 - 12/19/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's not likely. They're not personally responsible as far as I can see. The truck was owned by the family business, but if it's incorporated, the family will not be liable.
I'm sure they'll settle it, though.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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SYLBM
Mind ExpansionEnthusiast



Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 300
Loc: TX
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
#19350505 - 12/31/13 10:11 AM (10 years, 30 days ago) |
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-------------------- "I like the FedEx driver because he's a drug dealer and he doesn't even know it." - Mitch Hedberg
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spore baby



Registered: 07/30/13
Posts: 4,918
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
#19415581 - 01/14/14 02:35 AM (10 years, 17 days ago) |
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.
Edited by spore baby (12/13/14 10:06 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: spore baby] 1
#19415872 - 01/14/14 05:04 AM (10 years, 17 days ago) |
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The poor get away with far more shit than the rich.
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19416471 - 01/14/14 09:33 AM (10 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The poor get away with far more shit than the rich.
your kidding right?
having been wildly rich for the first 40 yrs of my life, and now , being relatively poor, i can assure you as of 2014, that the rich essentially are immune from most law , and the poor are hunted with dog and helicopter and swat teams...... for any minor infraction.
thats one of the things i miss about my lost fortunes. the outlandish lawlessness....
these days, anyone making less than 100k , is assumed to be a derelict crackhead or homeless nusiance, and is subject to being arrested, and possibly shot on sight..........
you should read the news sometime enlil......
Edited by anne halonium (01/14/14 09:40 AM)
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EdibleStereos
Healthy Body, Sick Mind


Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 4,899
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19416504 - 01/14/14 09:40 AM (10 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The poor get away with far more shit than the rich.
Care to post any reasoning for your statement?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: EdibleStereos]
#19416682 - 01/14/14 10:19 AM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
EdibleStereos said:
Quote:
Enlil said: The poor get away with far more shit than the rich.
Care to post any reasoning for your statement?
Sure. There are far more poor than rich in the world. As a result, there is more crime committed by poor than rich. This would be true even if poverty had no influence on one's likelihood of committing crimes. Poverty's influence makes this even more true.
The sad reality is that many crimes go unpunished. Since most crimes are committed by the poor, most criminals that go unpunished are poor.
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EdibleStereos
Healthy Body, Sick Mind


Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 4,899
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19416734 - 01/14/14 10:34 AM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
EdibleStereos said:
Quote:
Enlil said: The poor get away with far more shit than the rich.
Care to post any reasoning for your statement?
Sure. There are far more poor than rich in the world. As a result, there is more crime committed by poor than rich. This would be true even if poverty had no influence on one's likelihood of committing crimes. Poverty's influence makes this even more true.
The sad reality is that many crimes go unpunished. Since most crimes are committed by the poor, most criminals that go unpunished are poor.
That doesnt even mention the point that is being discussed.
Which is the impact wealth has on sentencing when a crime is committed.
So if you want to give up your bs cheap lawyer tactics, then we can have an actual discussion.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19416831 - 01/14/14 10:56 AM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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Your reading comprehension is so poor, dude. Let me walk you through it:
Quote:
spore baby said: The rich get away with stuff? Can't be.
Quote:
Enlil said: The poor get away with far more shit than the rich.
If that isn't enough, maybe you should read very closely and carefully. Assuming you're not a complete moron, you'll realize that my statement was a direct response to the post above it.
Now, if you want to piss, moan, and cry about something, feel free. I'm just trying to help you figure out the language and how to use/understand it. Once you've learned that, maybe we can try to have an "actual discussion."
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mycoprog
Modular Heretic



Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 797
Loc: N. America
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19420435 - 01/14/14 11:42 PM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The poor get away with far more shit than the rich.
Statistically, yes. Relatively, no.
--------------------
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: mycoprog]
#19421366 - 01/15/14 05:39 AM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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I don't know if that's true or not. I know you're more likely to hear about it when a rich person is charged with a crime, and more likely to hear about it when they are acquitted.
I've seen, and personally helped, many poor people avoid prosecution and/or conviction of crimes of which they were clearly guilty. Of course, anecdotal evidence isn't particularly probative.
Unless/until good stats are gathered, I doubt we'll ever know. Good stats are unlikely to every be gathered because it would require knowing whether or not people were actually guilty of what they were charged.
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EdibleStereos
Healthy Body, Sick Mind


Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 4,899
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#19421667 - 01/15/14 07:39 AM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Your reading comprehension is so poor, dude. Let me walk you through it:
Quote:
spore baby said: The rich get away with stuff? Can't be.
Quote:
Enlil said: The poor get away with far more shit than the rich.
If that isn't enough, maybe you should read very closely and carefully. Assuming you're not a complete moron, you'll realize that my statement was a direct response to the post above it.
Now, if you want to piss, moan, and cry about something, feel free. I'm just trying to help you figure out the language and how to use/understand it. Once you've learned that, maybe we can try to have an "actual discussion."
If you are claiming you post was directed at spore babys post, why did you quote mine later on and respond to it?
So enough with the shit, why not respond on topic?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: EdibleStereos]
#19421698 - 01/15/14 07:49 AM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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Because you quoted mine and asked me a question. Am I supposed to ignore your questions?
And I don't "claim" my post was directed at spore baby. It says so right on the subject line of my post where it says "Re: spore baby." If you can't be bothered to look at such things, maybe you're not ready for the internet just yet.
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ManianFH
living in perverty


Registered: 07/06/04
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
#22725112 - 01/01/16 05:21 PM (8 years, 29 days ago) |
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http://news.yahoo.com/affluenza-teen-may-delay-deportation-human-rights-law-064903830.html#
the story continues.... Whoever said this kid wouldnt last 10 years on probation was spot on.
-------------------- notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... " ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: ManianFH]
#22740613 - 01/05/16 04:55 PM (8 years, 25 days ago) |
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This is no surprise, Ted Kennedy, a liberal democrat, set the precedence for this when he drove drunk off a bridge and let a girl drown. Since then, these instances of the rich getting away with murder seem to have increased...
Quote:
The Chappaquiddick incident was a single-vehicle automobile accident on Chappaquiddick Island, Massachusetts on July 18, 1969. The incident involved longtime U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy. His young colleague, Mary Jo Kopechne, drowned.
According to his own testimony, Kennedy (while drunk) accidentally drove his car off a one-lane bridge and into a tidal channel before swimming free, leaving the scene, and not reporting about the accident for nine hours. Meanwhile, Kopechne had died in the car through drowning or suffocation. The next day, Kopechne's body and the car were finally recovered by divers. Kennedy pleaded guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of a crash after causing injury and later received a two-month suspended jail sentence. The Chappaquiddick incident became a national scandal, and likely influenced Kennedy's decision not to campaign for President in 1972 and 1976.
This guy fled the scene, let her die, and was a darling of the democrat party ever since...
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SpiritWorld
Stranger

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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22740765 - 01/05/16 05:33 PM (8 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: He also got 10 years probation. That's almost certain to mean he'll end up doing time down the road. It's highly unlikely he will stay out of trouble that long.
Someone pick up the phone, cause Enlil called it.
Your intuition is keen.
Good job. Keep up the good work.
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: SpiritWorld]
#22740853 - 01/05/16 05:47 PM (8 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
SpiritWorld said:
Quote:
Enlil said: He also got 10 years probation. That's almost certain to mean he'll end up doing time down the road. It's highly unlikely he will stay out of trouble that long.
Someone pick up the phone, cause Enlil called it.
Your intuition is keen.
Good job. Keep up the good work.
probation is fucking easy, ever heard of the "early release program"? its not just for prison sentences, it applies, in various forms, to probation and parole as well. probation for killing 4, thats a fucking slap on the wrist
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22747816 - 01/07/16 10:34 AM (8 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: This is no surprise, Ted Kennedy, a liberal democrat, set the precedence for this when he drove drunk off a bridge and let a girl drown. Since then, these instances of the rich getting away with murder seem to have increased...
Quote:
The Chappaquiddick incident was a single-vehicle automobile accident on Chappaquiddick Island, Massachusetts on July 18, 1969. The incident involved longtime U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy. His young colleague, Mary Jo Kopechne, drowned.
According to his own testimony, Kennedy (while drunk) accidentally drove his car off a one-lane bridge and into a tidal channel before swimming free, leaving the scene, and not reporting about the accident for nine hours. Meanwhile, Kopechne had died in the car through drowning or suffocation. The next day, Kopechne's body and the car were finally recovered by divers. Kennedy pleaded guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of a crash after causing injury and later received a two-month suspended jail sentence. The Chappaquiddick incident became a national scandal, and likely influenced Kennedy's decision not to campaign for President in 1972 and 1976.
This guy fled the scene, let her die, and was a darling of the democrat party ever since...
This kid didn't get away with it. He's a fugitive.
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