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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19283658 - 12/16/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm talking about using force to compel one to an inpatient center in the most extreme of cases

Extreme as in heroin addiction? Here's something to draw out and highlight the absurdity of your position. Nicotine (which, dear reader, Enlil believes should also be illegal) is "as addictive as heroin, cocaine, and amphetamines, and for most people more addictive than alcohol" (which Enlil believes should be illegal too). That quote is from a NY Times interview with Dr. Sharon Hall, University of California's San Francisco medical school. I've linked you this before so I know you know it.

I don't know what dream world you live in, but in my experience, someone who is addicted to the point I'm talking about

Then what happens to the non-extreme cases which constitutes the vast majority of drug users? People like me, for example, with no criminal record who pay their taxes, never drive fucked up, help their neighbors, and mind their own business while using drugs in the privacy of their own home? I've asked you this many times and you have steadfastly insisted that ANY addiction constitutes a loss of free will and that justifies forcible drug treatment. So which is it?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
    #19283893 - 12/16/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This kid is a little punk who won't learn anything from the "therapy" he will attend. He said he wasn't responsible for his actions. Yeah you are motherfucker. You are responsible for killing people. It would be manslaughter if he knew he made a mistake, but he doesn't even care. He just didn't want to go to prison. Fuck the rich. If I ever make a lot of money it won't be to help out other rich people, fucking unenlightened pieces of shit. Fuck Texas, fuck Florida, and fuck any other state that thinks its okay to kill a innocent person because of their ethnicity or because you are drunk and you aren't responsible for your actions. Fuck everyone who got rich fucking people over. Fuck. :suckmydickbitches:


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"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: mindgnome]
    #19283905 - 12/16/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

He's also 16 years old.  That probably has as much to do with it as his socio-economic status.


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19283922 - 12/16/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah but I am talking about him feeling guilt. This motherfucker got off guilt free because he is a dickbag. The news story said he didn't think he was guilty. I was 16 once and I did stupid shit but if I had killed 4 people when I was drunk I would feel terrible. I see through the bullshit.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: mindgnome]
    #19283926 - 12/16/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

He doesn't have to think he's guilty.  He was convicted and sentenced.  He's guilty.


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19283946 - 12/16/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

He was sentenced to probation.... I don't know about you but a guy that doesn't think he is guilty for killing people when he was drunk is someone I don't want to be a part of society. It is a good sign he is just going to fuck more shit up when he gets older.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin

Edited by mindgnome (12/16/13 01:36 PM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: mindgnome]
    #19283953 - 12/16/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

He sure was.  10 years of it.  He needs it, too.

What is your source for your claim that he "doesn't think he's guilty"?  He did confess, after all.




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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19284083 - 12/16/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"Texas teen claims "affluenza" rendered him blameless in a fatal DUI crash" - Cnn.com


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: mindgnome]
    #19284088 - 12/16/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So your source is the commentary of a news site, and not a direct quote.  You'll forgive me if I doubt its accuracy.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19284115 - 12/16/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You said, "The direction you would have us go would be unfortunately a disaster imo"

So what direction would I have you go?





As a society?  Forcing addicts to get treatment. This could include me.:nono:

Then what, forced treatment for disease you want to let run it's course even if it might end in death?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19284150 - 12/16/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I never advocated for forced treatment in this thread.  I said I wouldn't morally object to it if it is proven necessary and effective.  I never said I would "have you go" in that direction.

You're turning into diploid here assuming shit I didn't say and putting words in my mouth.

And as far as forced treatment goes, we do that for unconscious patients...Why shouldn't we do it for other people that are so ill that they are incapable of making rational decisions for themselves?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19284338 - 12/16/13 02:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

mindgnome said: "Texas teen claims "affluenza" rendered him blameless in a fatal DUI crash" - Cnn.com

In fact, he plead guilty and your link is just a reporter's commentary. To my knowledge, Couch hasn't spoken to the media. However, I agree with you that his guilty plea doesn't ring sincere in light of his statements at the scene about "getting out of this" because of who he is.

Enlil said: So what direction would I have you go?

How about letting adults run their life as they see fit instead of locking them in a drug treatment cage, then using the $30,000+ a year saved to pay for the treatment of drug users who WANT treatment or who commit a crime that has an actual victim? Nah, that makes too much sense and there is an army of law enforcement, treatment, and judicial employees plus a private prison industry who would lobby against it for fear of loosing their livelihood if we began respecting the private behavior decisions of otherwise law-abiding adults in our society.

You're turning into diploid here assuming shit I didn't say and putting words in my mouth.

That will stop the moment you explain how you would get me out of my house and into treatment without using guns when I barricade myself in and prepare to shoot you. It's a very simple question and you should perhaps look inward for the real reason you refuse to answer it and what that says about your conviction in your above assertion.

And as far as forced treatment goes, we do that for unconscious patients

No one here is talking about unconscious people besides you. The rest of us are talking about an unwilling and armed (but otherwise peaceful) drug user minding his own business.

Get with the program, Enlil.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19284836 - 12/16/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I never advocated for forced treatment in this thread.  I said I wouldn't morally object to it if it is proven necessary and effective.  I never said I would "have you go" in that direction.

You're turning into diploid here assuming shit I didn't say and putting words in my mouth.

And as far as forced treatment goes, we do that for unconscious patients...Why shouldn't we do it for other people that are so ill that they are incapable of making rational decisions for themselves?





You wouldn't morally object if others did it to me though.
Thanks for nuttin. :lol:

I think it's wrong for unconscious patients also btw.  If I have no insurance and I'm in a car wreck the doctors have carte blanc to go to town on me and then demand payment later on right down to taking my home and savings from me.  Fuck that shit.  Happened to a coworker of my Sister in Michigan. She lost her retirement and home.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19284873 - 12/16/13 04:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

To you?  I'd almost certainly morally object to that.  You don't seem to be addicted to the point that you've lost the ability to rationally make decisions for yourself.

To Diploid:  You can keep making up all of the lies you want, it's not going to convince me to engage in this debate with you.  Unless/until you correct the misstatements about me in this thread and apologize for making them in the first place, I've no reason to discuss this subject with you.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander]
    #19284994 - 12/16/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
I never advocated for forced treatment in this thread.  I said I wouldn't morally object to it if it is proven necessary and effective.  I never said I would "have you go" in that direction.

You're turning into diploid here assuming shit I didn't say and putting words in my mouth.

And as far as forced treatment goes, we do that for unconscious patients...Why shouldn't we do it for other people that are so ill that they are incapable of making rational decisions for themselves?





You wouldn't morally object if others did it to me though.
Thanks for nuttin. :lol:

I think it's wrong for unconscious patients also btw.  If I have no insurance and I'm in a car wreck the doctors have carte blanc to go to town on me and then demand payment later on right down to taking my home and savings from me.  Fuck that shit.  Happened to a coworker of my Sister in Michigan. She lost her retirement and home.



Yeah, I agree.  Fuck that shit, you should obviously just be abandoned and left for dead with the only expenses extracted from your estate for a nice swift cremation.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19285005 - 12/16/13 05:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you can't give verbal consent at the scene, they should just leave you in the wrecked car and ship it off to be crushed with you in it.  Who are they to pull you out of the car by force without your consent?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19285093 - 12/16/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds like a kidnapping to me.  Do you think they should just light the car on fire and save the expense?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19285136 - 12/16/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That would only be fair in a no fault state if they burned all the cars involved and made sure all parties are in their vehicles.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19285163 - 12/16/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"Fair"?  Fuck fair.  Fair is for kindergarten.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19285218 - 12/16/13 05:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

To you? I'd almost certainly morally object to that.  You don't seem to be addicted to the point that you've lost the ability to rationally make decisions for yourself.

Except that you are on the record contradicting this, which is the crux of my disagreement with you. You have said you would lock up and forcibly treat [paraphrasing] "anyone addicted to a substance, including nicotine and alcohol".

Do you want me to dig up some quotes? Or did you change your mind and now think forced treatment should only apply to people so addicted that they can't function even to defend themselves from busybody prohibitionists on a mission to save them?

Unless/until you correct the misstatements about me in this thread and apologize for making them in the first place, I've no reason to discuss this subject with you.

I'm basing my comments on direct quotations from this and other threads which I've provided links to.

This one, for example:

Quote:

As I have said many times, I wouldn't rule out forced treatment if it is proven effective and necessary.

I would never, however, force treatment at gunpoint as you suggested earlier.




That is an unqualified statement that applies to all drug users (including Icelander) and seems pretty clear on its face. Unless you can tell me how you would lock me in a drug treatment program without using police and guns when I put up a barricade and prepare to defend myself, then you have no grounds to an indignant claim that I'm misrepresenting you.

Answer my fucking question or acknowledge that you can't.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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