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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19273881 - 12/14/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Skydawg said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
That's probably true.  10 years of probation certainly might.  Having a PO keeping tabs one a person can be quite an effective rehabilitator.


Sorry but your wrong on this one Rasputin.



I don't think I am.  Many people do quite well on probation after a few fuckups.  This is particularly true of people who didn't have strong parental guidance as children.  Once probationers learn that the PO isn't going to take any shit from them, many of these people learn to follow the rules.

I think this guy might just learn a lot from probation.

Or he might violate repeatedly and spend years in jail...who knows.




What do you mean that the P.O. isn't going to take any shit from them?  What's he gonna do?  Stomp his feet and call them mean names?  The only power he has is the threat of jail/prison.

I don't have much truck with the rehabilitation model of the penal system (note that word.  It isn't the rehab system).  As a behaviorist I believe in the power of punishment.  The most effective way to extinguish a behavior is through sure, immediate and severe punishment.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19274068 - 12/14/13 10:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That's exactly what he'll do, send the guy to prison for a few months and then still be on his ass when he gets out and for years thereafter.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19274403 - 12/14/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's exactly what he'll do, send the guy to prison for a few months and then still be on his ass when he gets out and for years thereafter.




Which is it?

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19271750#19271750

Quote:

I don't think I agree with that.  Prison rarely leads people to become better citizens.  There is the occasional outlier, of course, but most people leave prison far more antisocial than they went in.





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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19274449 - 12/14/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It's both.  Life isn't quite as black and white as you seem to think it is.

Short prison stays with post-incarceration supervision is far more effective at rehabilitating that straight prison time. 

The supervision part is the key, of course.  This guy having to answer to his PO on a regular basis will eventually teach him consequences and structure, although it's pretty pathetic that he hasn't been able to learn all of that a priori.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19274588 - 12/14/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

But haven't you just yourself rejected rehabilitation model by advocating the punishment model?


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Offlineorison
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Registered: 01/19/09
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19274605 - 12/14/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

violations of probation maybe 5yrs down the road will revoke the whole sentence. paper sucks even for the rich, can only buy your way out of so many technicals before judge throws the book at you.

as others explained he didnt get away with it..

In Texas: its a usual thing to give a man long enough rope to hang himself.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19274629 - 12/14/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
But haven't you just yourself rejected rehabilitation model by advocating the punishment model?



I haven't rejected either model.  A good portion of offenders can be rehabilitated.  Another good portion can never be rehabilitated.  Some punishment can have a rehabilitative effect as well.  Again, it's not a black and white world.

By and large, the prison system doesn't rehabilitate and it's not designed to.  In many cases it does just the opposite.

The probation system is designed to rehabilitate, and it is relatively effective compared to the prison system.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19274716 - 12/14/13 01:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Without the prison system the probation system is nothing.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19274844 - 12/14/13 01:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yup...which is why we need both


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19275016 - 12/14/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Why bother with the middleman?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19275053 - 12/14/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

For cases where rehabilitation has a chance to succeed and it's cheaper to supervise than to feed and house.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19275858 - 12/14/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

A godsend for those busted for growing.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Icelander] * 2
    #19278685 - 12/15/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I got a better idea.  Stop arresting people for drugs.  All of the drugs.


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Invisibledionysiandame
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
    #19278728 - 12/15/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know why anyone is surprised about this at all. This is how things have been since civilization took off and I highly doubt it's going to change. I don't know if you ever saw the movie Aladdin as a kid but the begger who leads Aladdin to the Cave of Wonders says;

"Rememeber the golden rule. Whoever has the gold makes the rules."

Which is true as all hell. It's how rich people get away with hit and runs, drug charges, and only the gods know what else while someone with less funding or celebrity is thrown the book...tied with bricks because #teachingalesson.

I once read (and I wish I could find it) that the reason this is done is because wealthy individuals, used to more luxuries, are more easily punished by taking the slightest thing away. It's convoluted bullshit and continues to reaffirm why I refuse to pledge allegiance to this country. What fool would pledge loyalty to a place more than willing to condemn her for not being part of the wealthy class?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19278735 - 12/15/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That'd be far too sensible.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: dionysiandame]
    #19279183 - 12/15/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dionysiandame said:
I don't know why anyone is surprised about this at all. This is how things have been since civilization took off and I highly doubt it's going to change. I don't know if you ever saw the movie Aladdin as a kid but the begger who leads Aladdin to the Cave of Wonders says;

"Rememeber the golden rule. Whoever has the gold makes the rules."

Which is true as all hell. It's how rich people get away with hit and runs, drug charges, and only the gods know what else while someone with less funding or celebrity is thrown the book...tied with bricks because #teachingalesson.




They can hire better lawyers who insist on being paid more than public defenders.  I got an idea to equalize a bit.  Get rid of the lawyers. 
Quote:





I once read (and I wish I could find it) that the reason this is done is because wealthy individuals, used to more luxuries, are more easily punished by taking the slightest thing away. It's convoluted bullshit and continues to reaffirm why I refuse to pledge allegiance to this country. What fool would pledge loyalty to a place more than willing to condemn her for not being part of the wealthy class?




Who has condemned you for not being wealthy?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Enlil]
    #19279401 - 12/15/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That'd be far too sensible.

I thought you were a prohibitionist. Did you change your mind or did I have it wrong??


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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
    #19279643 - 12/15/13 02:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
That'd be far too sensible.

I thought you were a prohibitionist. Did you change your mind or did I have it wrong??



i don't think i've ever seen enill support drug prohibition


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: psyconaught] * 1
    #19279718 - 12/15/13 02:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

i don't think i've ever seen enill support drug prohibition

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15918400#15918400

Quote:

Enlil said: I don't believe that any and all drugs should be legal




--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
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Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Affluenza: The Wealthy Getting Away With Murder [Re: Diploid]
    #19279759 - 12/15/13 02:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
i don't think i've ever seen enill support drug prohibition

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15918400#15918400

Quote:

Enlil said: I don't believe that any and all drugs should be legal






i stand corrected. I had never seen that before but now i have.


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