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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Has anyone struggled with excessive self monitoring?
    #19269346 - 12/13/13 04:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I've realized I have had this problem for much my life. I used to suffer from terrible social anxiety and one of the reasons is that I would always be so focused on my inward reactions to the situation that I would never leave room for the situation to just unfold naturally. My thoughts would always be in the way.

With my spiritual practice, I have gained insights into how this tendency has been really negatively influenced my whole life. The problem is that rather than go away it seems to have just translated itself into my spiritual life. Once I discovered that life could be much grander if I didnt constantly monitor myself, I started monitoring myself to make sure I wasn't monitoring myself. So now I am always checking myself to make sure I am in some spiritually enlightened state. It's absolutely ridiculous and maddening. Every now and then, I will let go and experience profound peace and insight but then before long I will realize how absolutely wonderful it feels and I will want to remain there. Then instantly I will recall that clinging to spiritual experiences is how you lose them. Then I will try to stop clinging. When that fails I will try to stop trying to stop clinging. Then I will realize that I am doing it again, I am back in the cycle of constantly monitoring myself, trying to either get myself peaceful or keep myself peaceful but accomplishing exactly the opposite.

It seems impossible to know when to put forth effort and when not to. I touched on this in the U.G. Krishnamurti thread. If peace is lack of mental effort, you cannot get there through exertion. And yet, just doing nothing, forgetting about the spiritual path, does not work for most people either. This is a perfect example of the dilemma. If I hadn't made an effort, I would almost certainly still be loosing my cool in every social situation. Now I have improved a great deal in that respect and I am even beginning to feel like I can talk to girls without instantly panicking. But on the other hand, my self monitoring is worse than ever because I am so obsessed with keeping and furthering my new found freedom.

I have noticed I make the best progress in the moments when I just stop caring completely. I get so fed up with my life and the whole retarded spiritual path that I just completely forget the whole thing but without purposely trying to forget the whole thing. Then a revelation occurs and then I grasp at it and the whole process starts over until the next time i go mad from the monotony give up again.


Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 04:56 AM)


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Offlinebloodbrother778
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Registered: 10/26/07
Posts: 418
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
Re: Has anyone struggled with excessive self monitoring? [Re: Deviate]
    #19269393 - 12/13/13 05:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I can relate for sure.

I personally don't struggle with social anxiety, but I've definitely experienced part of this self-monitoring that you speak of.  I've noticed some sort of a need in myself to always want everything to be perfect, then I make something up in my mind over a thing that is not really that important, but it starts to become important to me, and then I start to get anxiety over whether it will or will not turn out this way.  Then when things don't go the way I think I want them to go I panic and sometimes get moody and destructive, as if saying to myself: "If I can't have this one thing, I'll throw away everything else".  It translates to spiritual matters as well, when I think of a virtue I aspire to have or work towards and see myself fail in that aspect sometimes I get down on myself and start to think that this one virtue is everything, whatever it may be at the time. 

My take on it is this:
What this kind of tendency seems to come from is a sort of insecurity.  A deep feeling of not being content with who you are so you have to have something, whether it is an object or a virtue to feel good about yourself over.  Obviously that's missing the point altogether and when we build these things up in our minds like that we are only setting ourselves up for a fall.  If we have a reason to feel happy, take away that reason and you take away the happiness.  It's like that needy salesman that comes up to you in the store and goes: "Can I help you?"  and ur first impulse is just to say "Ugh, No! leave me alone", only in this case I am the salesman :lol:

The antidote is definitely an effort, but it is a different kind of effort.  It is almost like an anti-effort.  What you have to do is recognize which part of you is controlling you at the moment, and if it is that needy salesman part then you just laugh at it and turn away from whatever it is trying to do.  I feel this active energy coming from my chest and going forward, so when I recognize that I am trying to put myself (my energy) into something with such a needy intention, I try to reverse this and withdraw this energy back through my chest and going towards my neck and upper back.  This has helped me in some intense situations, I just said: "Fuck it, I'm not gonna be worrying about this crap anymore, I'm just gonna chill" and started pulling myself back.  This has only come after I started becoming aware that I feel these vibrations in my body though.  It seems to help to have a tangible physical sensation or feeling for me to work with, to focus my attention on.

Anyway the most important part though is becoming aware of it of course.  Just because we are engaged in a spiritual endeavor does not mean that we are not being needy or that we have automatically gotten rid of our negative tendencies.  These things tend to run so deep that even becoming aware of them is a challenge due to our degree of self-deception.  We think that we are doing a thing with right motives, but really we may just be feeding our egoic insecurities.

So my suggestion to you is to just calmly ask yourself when you find yourself engaging in such behavior:  "Which part of me is in control right now?"  Is it a part that (YOU) really agree with?  Answer that question and then act accordingly.

When these smaller, insecure yous are discredited you automatically get all that energy back, which normally would have been thrown away at some illusory object.

That's my take, not sure if you're dealing with exactly what I have to deal with, but hopefully that provides some insight for you on where to start.

:peace:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
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Re: Has anyone struggled with excessive self monitoring? [Re: Deviate]
    #19269397 - 12/13/13 05:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Perfectionism rears it's ugly head yet again.  You aren't perfect, and you certainly don't seem enlightened.  Sorry to be the bearer of that bad news.

Trying too hard for perfection seems redundant.  Of course you are trying EXTRA hard, you want it to be JUST perfect.

Relax, if you can.  Life is short.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Has anyone struggled with excessive self monitoring? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19269481 - 12/13/13 06:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You know I think it is a form of perfectionism. I want to be perfectly enlightened. I want everything to go perfectly every time I enter a social situation. I could never deal with the awkward or embarrassing moments that would always come up around other people, so I just decided to avoid socializing entirely.

bloodbrother778 that part about watching which part of myself is in control was very helpful. That is actually what I have sort of discovered on my own, that when I catch myself in these absurd thought cycles I need to just laugh and ask who is doing this? its certainly not the wise, intelligent part of myself. Its still difficult though, a lot of the time I feel like I turn away from the wise knowing part of myself because i realize that if I remain in its presence I will need to change and even though I want to change, there is resistance to it that must be consciously overridden. Maybe thats the answer to when to put forth effort, whenever the effort will make you more conscious rather than direct your attention away from your inner self. Sometimes I am aftaid of becoming too conscious though, because then you cannot lie to yourself or shield yourself from pain by closing your heart. Life with an open heart is such a whole different experience, infinitely better than life with a closed heart but I am not used to it.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Has anyone struggled with excessive self monitoring? [Re: Deviate]
    #19269530 - 12/13/13 06:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I've realized I have had this problem for much my life. I used to suffer from terrible social anxiety and one of the reasons is that I would always be so focused on my inward reactions to the situation that I would never leave room for the situation to just unfold naturally. My thoughts would always be in the way.

With my spiritual practice, I have gained insights into how this tendency has been really negatively influenced my whole life. The problem is that rather than go away it seems to have just translated itself into my spiritual life. Once I discovered that life could be much grander if I didnt constantly monitor myself, I started monitoring myself to make sure I wasn't monitoring myself. So now I am always checking myself to make sure I am in some spiritually enlightened state. It's absolutely ridiculous and maddening. Every now and then, I will let go and experience profound peace and insight but then before long I will realize how absolutely wonderful it feels and I will want to remain there. Then instantly I will recall that clinging to spiritual experiences is how you lose them. Then I will try to stop clinging. When that fails I will try to stop trying to stop clinging. Then I will realize that I am doing it again, I am back in the cycle of constantly monitoring myself, trying to either get myself peaceful or keep myself peaceful but accomplishing exactly the opposite.

It seems impossible to know when to put forth effort and when not to. I touched on this in the U.G. Krishnamurti thread. If peace is lack of mental effort, you cannot get there through exertion. And yet, just doing nothing, forgetting about the spiritual path, does not work for most people either. This is a perfect example of the dilemma. If I hadn't made an effort, I would almost certainly still be loosing my cool in every social situation. Now I have improved a great deal in that respect and I am even beginning to feel like I can talk to girls without instantly panicking. But on the other hand, my self monitoring is worse than ever because I am so obsessed with keeping and furthering my new found freedom.

I have noticed I make the best progress in the moments when I just stop caring completely. I get so fed up with my life and the whole retarded spiritual path that I just completely forget the whole thing but without purposely trying to forget the whole thing. Then a revelation occurs and then I grasp at it and the whole process starts over until the next time i go mad from the monotony give up again.




I used to think think think until thinking vanished for a bit, think about the universe, think about what id been reading, think about thinking... i'd think until suddenly i'd drop everything and experience a flash of bliss & understanding, almost straight away i'd think that i have to do something to maintain it, i'd quickly try to keep record of the thoughts that apparently brought me to this point of view, and of course this clambering to capture the moment through thinking about it would make it appear to slip away, it was extremely frustrating and i found it very draining, for 99.9% of the day id be depressed with low energy, constantly thinking, seeing suffering everywhere, then for 0.1% id get to let it all go & experience that release

Whenever i heard Sages say that you have to stop thoughts or still the mind i thought they were flat out wrong because from my point of view thoughts had apparently led me into this wonderful state over & over, i wanted to keep using thoughts as so far that's what had worked for me

I like the analogy of crutches, if you are injured & need crutches to stay steady then use them for as long as you need them, until you are healed & can stand on your own 2 feet, if you keep on using them when you are healed & no longer need them then they can become a hinderance rather than a help, you can perpetuate your own weakness

So how to know when to use thoughts and when to abandon the entire process and just be yourself? You can't know, sometimes certain thoughts can help you break through to reality beyond belief, but sometimes they just feel like clutter you want rid of

What i've found great in recent times is unknowing, knowing that you are the unknown, which is what i feel is the true meaning of the saying 'i know that i don't know', knowing that you yourself are the unknown
This is still using thoughts but the end 'result' is not thought based, if you truly accept yourself as unknown then automatically you will not keep using thoughts to create a self-image, you still use thoughts, but not to create a self-image

It's like you can use thoughts to coax thoughts inwards towards the core truth of yourself rather than perpetuating its own extroverted delusions through thoughts, by thinking of truth, or practices that are aimed at realizing truth, but the truth itself can not be a thought, it's unknown, but it's you, and because it's you you can't even say its truly unknown, it's not a state of ignorance, it's neither known nor unknown, it just Is, you just are, its the state of Being

I've found its good to have an intellectual thought based understanding that you are what you seek, you are reality, you are universal truth, you are that, yet it's unknown, empty, intellectual knowledge is thought based but ime it knaws away at the illusion that you need to get somewhere or think of something, it sweeps the rug out from under itself into...

Thoughts don't even exist but if you think that you need them then you will need them, you'll need to find the right seeds to plant in your mind


--------------------


Edited by Chronic7 (12/13/13 06:48 AM)


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OfflineAllGreyThumbs
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Registered: 09/18/12
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Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
Re: Has anyone struggled with excessive self monitoring? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19269556 - 12/13/13 06:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Say the brain is pretty much a biological computer.  (It works a little differently than an electronic computer of course.)  In certain modes of operation it is very calculating.  It builds mental models of everything in life, analyzes them, revises them, analyzes, revises.  The problem is that no matter how perfectly your brain models life it is still stuck in this analytical mode.  And obviously no matter how much you analyze you can't analyze your way out of analyzation.

As long as you are alive the brain will always retain this analytical capability, but that doesn't mean you are screwed.  The key is to be able to switch your awareness from this one mode of operation into the other modes that your brain is capable of operating in.

For example, say you are going to change a light bulb, but it gets stuck.  How hard can you turn that bulb before it breaks?  You would spend forever analyzing each and every memory you have and trying to linearly make a decision.  However your brain has the ability to instantly balance everything you've ever done, seem, and learned into a feeling of just how hard you can try to turn the bulb.  Maybe that feeling is correct, and maybe it's wrong.  The point is that in an instant your mind sorted through an unimaginable amount of information and you weren't even aware of any analyzation.

Image trying to remove that stuck bulb.  Don't analyze it.  Feel how much force feels correct and just turn the damn thing.  Congratulations, your mind is now parallelly (probably holographically) processing every single experience you've every had.  It is assigning value to situations and experiences based on how closely they relate to your current situation.  In and instant it has everything all calculated out and presents you with a feeling.  If the feeling is wrong you mind will feed that information back and adjust it's calculations for the future.

Learn to look for the feeling.  Learn when to follow the feeling through life and when to use analytical calculations in order to make decisions.  Learn to use the feeling to sometimes guide you through social situations.  In your self understand whether you are trying to refine some little logical detail of your beliefs through analytical refinement, and when you need to just follow the flow and let life play out.

And just to end the post on a good rant.  I sucks that our entire education system is designed to force people into analytical states of mind.  No wonder people end up feeling stuck and trapped.  And no wonder I see so many highly educated people that can't change a god damn light bulb.

Anyway, just my thoughts.  It felt like some reasonable stuff to say.


--------------------
I only use drugs medicinally.  If I don't my knees hurt from kneeling down.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Has anyone struggled with excessive self monitoring? [Re: Deviate]
    #19269692 - 12/13/13 07:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Sometimes, imo, it can be useful to take a break from a practice, relax a bit, and then come back with a fresh mind and then you'll approach your practice with a new outlook. I personally found it works with meditation.


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Offlinebloodbrother778
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Registered: 10/26/07
Posts: 418
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
Re: Has anyone struggled with excessive self monitoring? [Re: Deviate]
    #19269697 - 12/13/13 07:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
You know I think it is a form of perfectionism. I want to be perfectly enlightened. I want everything to go perfectly every time I enter a social situation. I could never deal with the awkward or embarrassing moments that would always come up around other people, so I just decided to avoid socializing entirely.

bloodbrother778 that part about watching which part of myself is in control was very helpful. That is actually what I have sort of discovered on my own, that when I catch myself in these absurd thought cycles I need to just laugh and ask who is doing this? its certainly not the wise, intelligent part of myself. Its still difficult though, a lot of the time I feel like I turn away from the wise knowing part of myself because i realize that if I remain in its presence I will need to change and even though I want to change, there is resistance to it that must be consciously overridden. Maybe thats the answer to when to put forth effort, whenever the effort will make you more conscious rather than direct your attention away from your inner self. Sometimes I am aftaid of becoming too conscious though, because then you cannot lie to yourself or shield yourself from pain by closing your heart. Life with an open heart is such a whole different experience, infinitely better than life with a closed heart but I am not used to it.





that's part of the process, you need to resolve for yourself how important this really is to you

cause really you're just bullshitting yourself when you say I want to change, but I'm afraid of it......really what you're saying is I don't want to change but I like to think that I do.....the part of you that doesn't want to change is currently stronger.  Sitting on the fence sucks.....and the thing is when you don't make a strong enough effort to change - you remain the same, you're actually making a decision to remain the same, it is an action even though it looks like inaction.

when you realize that where you are right now is the worst possible place you can be (think about how uncomfortable it is, think about where you will be 10 years from now if you continue down this road), you will no longer think about how difficult change is you'll simply do it.  Yes it is very difficult, but you won't look at that you'll just know that you can't turn back.

When your house is on fire you run, you don't think about why you're running or how difficult it will be to get through all the rubble, you do whatever it takes - this is the attitude you need to really get out of this mess.


As far as for when to put forth the effort - in terms of the energy you save it is best to stop the tendency right as it arises.  Many times we aren't even aware of it and only remember much later, when our energy has already been drained.  Being aware of it at the moment means that you have the possibility of doing something about it even if it seems really difficult. 


Edited by bloodbrother778 (12/13/13 08:25 AM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Registered: 02/13/13
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Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
Re: Has anyone struggled with excessive self monitoring? [Re: Deviate]
    #19269749 - 12/13/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Nice post, Deviate.  And nice thread.  It takes guts to reveal vulnerability like that.  I admire you for doing it.

There's a deep, profound surrender of the will that all the great mystics throughout the ages have spoken about, and with that surrender comes a peace that surpasses understanding.  Problem is (and I think this is the point of your post), we can't "make" the surrender happen.  It either happens or it does not.

It's possible, I've found, to experience a sort of dual consciousness in which, in the same moment, there is anxiety and upset AND reconciliation.  It doesn't have to be "either/or."  It can be both.  You can be fully human and vulnerable and imperfect while in the same moment you sense the beneficence of what is.

Good luck to you, man.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Has anyone struggled with excessive self monitoring? [Re: Deviate]
    #19269777 - 12/13/13 08:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I've realized I have had this problem for much my life. I used to suffer from terrible social anxiety and one of the reasons is that I would always be so focused on my inward reactions to the situation that I would never leave room for the situation to just unfold naturally. My thoughts would always be in the way.

With my spiritual practice, I have gained insights into how this tendency has been really negatively influenced my whole life. The problem is that rather than go away it seems to have just translated itself into my spiritual life. Once I discovered that life could be much grander if I didnt constantly monitor myself, I started monitoring myself to make sure I wasn't monitoring myself. So now I am always checking myself to make sure I am in some spiritually enlightened state. It's absolutely ridiculous and maddening. Every now and then, I will let go and experience profound peace and insight but then before long I will realize how absolutely wonderful it feels and I will want to remain there. Then instantly I will recall that clinging to spiritual experiences is how you lose them. Then I will try to stop clinging. When that fails I will try to stop trying to stop clinging. Then I will realize that I am doing it again, I am back in the cycle of constantly monitoring myself, trying to either get myself peaceful or keep myself peaceful but accomplishing exactly the opposite.

It seems impossible to know when to put forth effort and when not to. I touched on this in the U.G. Krishnamurti thread. If peace is lack of mental effort, you cannot get there through exertion. And yet, just doing nothing, forgetting about the spiritual path, does not work for most people either. This is a perfect example of the dilemma. If I hadn't made an effort, I would almost certainly still be loosing my cool in every social situation. Now I have improved a great deal in that respect and I am even beginning to feel like I can talk to girls without instantly panicking. But on the other hand, my self monitoring is worse than ever because I am so obsessed with keeping and furthering my new found freedom.

I have noticed I make the best progress in the moments when I just stop caring completely. I get so fed up with my life and the whole retarded spiritual path that I just completely forget the whole thing but without purposely trying to forget the whole thing. Then a revelation occurs and then I grasp at it and the whole process starts over until the next time i go mad from the monotony give up again.




Man can I relate to you on this one.  I can relate to being between that rock and a hard place also.  I had terrible social anxiety growing up and really still do on the deepest levels although I certainly know how to play the game very well now.  I have never come up with a better solution then the one you give in your last paragraph.  I have a lot of empathy for your situation as it is also mine.  The only difference is at my age I know the problem will soon and finally, at least in this life, reach a resolution. :satansmoking:

btw I think I have found the greatest peace creating my own "spiritual" path out of the bits and pieces of what I have come to view as being true.  This can and does include negative views on creation and humanity at times along with a great inner love and empathy for all things at times.  There is definitely a inner middle path I'm on but it's far better called walking the razor's edge.  It's terrifying much of the time and not for the faint of heart. But it is a path.

You see the thing I feel is part of ones true spiritual path is rock bottom self honesty.  If I don't agree with creation or the creator as I see it then it's up to me to lay claim to that and express it.  It's not my path if I ever feel I have to appease any creative force that might be out there with any specific behaviors or ways of thinking.  I must live my gut feelings or I'm not on any spiritual path.  I've had to fight my fears of a condemning god over this since I was a very young man breaking away from the matrix of my cultural programming.  And I must also it seems accept the imperfections of my attempts and the feelings of hopelessness that accompany them.  Because I am not strong enough or whatever enough to do better than that.  It's quite humbling let me assure you. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/13/13 09:11 AM)


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